The Leinster Way of Rugby

TheHighRoad

RUGBY: Ten years ago they were a one-man operation run from a few portakabins, today Leinster are tapping into their potential and have become a marketing giant, writes GERRY THORNLEY

MICK DAWSON became the Leinster chief executive in November 2001, shortly before Leinster won the inaugural Celtic League. That final, and the 30,000 who turned up for the win over Munster, gave them an inkling of the rich potential which the province had, but they were a while tapping into it. Now the Leinster machine is doing just that.

Up until about a year before, the Leinster Branch had effectively been a one-man operation on a voluntary full-time basis by its honorary secretary, the late Sandy Heffernan, a retired bank manager.
Back then, Dawson freely and good-humouredly recalls that the main stand in Donnybrook didn’t even have number seats. “No-one knew exactly how many people it could fit.”

Dawson’s operation was then run from a portakabin in Donnybrook while the team was run from a couple of portakabins in Anglesea Road.
“You had nobody who sold tickets. Now we have two people selling tickets full time and Ticketmaster. We now have four people on the commercial and marketing side and the PR side. We had nobody doing that either.
“We have now got two people in finance. We used to have some bookmaker out in Glasnevin doing it. That’s not criticism, that’s just the way it was. The whole place was run by Sandy Heffernan.”

Keira Kennedy, Leinster’s Commercial and Marketing Manager, is in her sixth season with the province after being hired by her predecessor in the role, Conor Hanratty.

“In the beginning, if it was a family day, I was putting up the goalposts. It was tiny. We had no support structure at all.”

She has since brought on board Ian Murray, like virtually everyone in the operation, a former player, and including the senior playing squad and management, there are nearly 140 people working full-time in the Leinster machine.

There have been mistakes along the way, one of which is visible from the boardroom in the Leinster Branch offices, namely the rebuilt stand at Donnybrook. Costing €6.5 million, Leinster outgrew it before it was finished and which, along with proposed new clubhouses for Bective Rangers and Old Wesley, was to have been funded by apartment blocks. Planning permission remains.

“Hindsight would suggest that we spent too much money on that stand. We needed a new stand, but we built something that was going to be for the professional game and it is a bit of a millstone around our neck, we have a debt on it and we’re paying the debt back. We just rushed our fences a bit, we built the stand and then the recession kicked in.”
When Kennedy joined, Leinster had 1,200 season ticket holders. Now they have 13,500.

A season ticket holder automatically becomes a member of the Supporters Club, and Dawson and Kennedy describe them as “stakeholders” and “ambassadors” for the province, who bought 26,000 tickets for both the Leicester quarter-final and Toulouse semi-final.

In all of this and much else, Dawson accepts that Leinster have huge, inherent advantages which they didn’t always exploit, most obviously being a capital city which they pretty much have to themselves, certainly as a professional team sport competing internationally.

Leinster are also seeking to branch out into the other 11 counties. When someone said to Kennedy a couple of years ago ‘what about the American diaspora?’ she responded: ‘we’re trying to get to Navan and Naas’. Now busloads are traveling from Carlow, Dundalk and elsewhere, especially for the Aviva games.

Another advantage is the Government’s retirement tax, which has helped to keep so many stellar names in the fold. But more than any other factor of course, is a golden generation of players.

“There’s no marketing without them, says Kennedy. “They are our product, and they happen to be a very good product. In the beginning, we had lots of different creative ideas on posters and funny meanings, and then we realised all people really want to see is the players. That’s it. They are it.”

She also says it is something of a daunting challenge, simply trying to do justice to the team’s achievements.

The IRFU’s restriction on overseas players also compels Leinster, and the other provinces, to produce a high number of their own players, and as Dawson admits “the next big trick is managing change”, not least when the last of the golden generation retires in two or three years.

The task of making sure the machine keeps rolling lies with former Leinster and Irish number eight Philip Lawlor, the Domestic Rugby Manager, who is effectively the chief executive of everything outside the elite.

Working with him as Coach Development Manager is Gerry Murphy, the former Irish coach. “His CV is so good in that job it’s not funny,” says a grateful Dawson. Murphy is responsible for all of Leinster’s under-age teams and underneath him there are five regional coach development officers covering the metropolitan area, the north midlands, the south east, the midlands and the north west.

Working alongside them is the Community Rugby Manager, Declan Fassbender, who is served by six community rugby officers who work on nine-month contracts, and through them Leinster’s tentacles reach out to 41 club community officers, six FAS development officers and College Officers in DIT, DCU and Carlow IT.

What Dawson describes as a ‘pyramid’ structure, with its broadening base providing a pathway through the schools and youths system and eventually peaking with the Leinster team, is called The Leinster Way.

“Each team that we produce, whether it’s the under-17s who won a tournament in Perpignan last week, the under-18s, the under-19s; we have a myriad of underage teams but they all operate on the same basis.

“They are all coached the same way, we want them to play the same way and we want them to all operate in the Leinster Way. So when you go away you behave yourself in a certain fashion.”

“For years schools just didn’t want to know us really,” admits Dawson. “They just wanted to play in the Senior Cup and educate the kids. Now they have realised with our strength and conditioning staff, the Girvan Dempseys of this world and nutritionists, that we can actually bring a lot to the party that they’re doing. We’re not looking to take over the schools team.”
To this end, Leinster recently spent €100,000 upgrading a gym in Donnybrook which looks after all those in the sub Academy, which could number around 120 players in the schools or clubs system, or even in the first year of college.

This falls under Lawlor’s remit and is part of the pathway into the full Academy whose manager is Colin McEntee. Working with him are Wayne Mitchell and Girvan Dempsey, as well as two conditioning coaches, Dave Fagan and Sonny Dowling, along with five more full-time regional conditioning coaches.

The module for this pyramid structure, aka The Leinster Way, was devised by Murphy, Lawlor and McEntee, and ratified and put into operation by the Branch four years ago.

“It just gives a cohesiveness as to what we’re trying to do and all the time now you’re trying to move it on to the next level,” says Dawson. “We would also be of the belief that all our underage teams each season should play home and away against an English team, or a French team, to benchmark yourself as to where you’re going.”

Eight of last Saturday’s match-day squad came through full three-year programmes in the Leinster Academy and McEntee estimates that 55 academy products went on to play professionally.

“We try and get our screening right and stuff like that as best as possible so the Academy isn’t even there to screen players, it’s there to develop players. So we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and on the system to make sure that we get it right.

“Our clubs and schools have really embraced with what Leinster are about. And throughout all our player development and all our programmes we try to be as inclusive as possible with our stakeholders.”

McEntee also says that coaching at schools and under-age level has improved immeasurably, citing much more of a 15-man game in the Leinster Schools Senior Cup in recent years.

With better coaching has come better talent identification and then, once they reach the academy, Joe Schmidt has continued the approach of Michael Cheika in ensuring they train and play with the senior squad. And, in what will not be music to the ears of the clubs, the provincial A games have assisted in that, although he maintains there’s still a role for the clubs.
Dawson credits much of the early progress in the making of a machine to the drive, work and professionalism of Matt Williams, and the legacy left by Michael Cheika.

“History should treat him very well,” acknowledges Dawson. “Michael Cheika came in to a ship that was unsteady, a lot of talented players and I think that he got them to bind to what he wanted to do. He had a vision. He had an anger, an enthusiasm, all those things.”

“He probably misread a few situations when he started,” adds Dawson. “I think he learnt, he put an edge into the pack, and we got Leo (Cullen) and Shane (Jennings) home, who’d got the hard edge over at Leicester.

“So Michael must be credited with a lot of the structures that he put into the team and I think before he left he gave an awful lot of the responsibility back to the players and they were prepared to take it, and I think that Joe Schmidt has brought that on to a different level.”

“We’re in a recession,” says Dawson, “and we’ve been lucky that the team has been able to compete during that period. But history would show you if you look at the Great Depression in the States sports thrived during that period.”

Even so, Kennedy and co have to be mindful of how they package and market the brand.

For example, the cheapest season ticket for next season is €289, which is for one terrace standing ticket for all 14 games at the RDS.

Dawson is also mindful of the bad days, when he and Leinster copped plenty of flak, not least when their new signing, Felipe Contepomi, wasn’t registered for the Heineken Cup in his first season.

“It’s like everything, when you are perceived to be going well it’s the time to watch yourself, because I’m very conscious of the bad old days, the Contepomi thing, and the team getting kicked around the place for supposedly being a bit flaky. But I think that that image has gone. Leinster has moved on but we are in a capital city. We can improve all the time and you want to be seen to be doing things.”

To that end, Kennedy and Murray have recently completed a root and branch research of Leinster with Genesis.

“For us it’s looking to like the Superbowls, the NFLs, see what they’re doing,” says Kennedy. “We’re way behind in terms of US sport is and that’s the benchmark for us.”

Next season Leinster move lock stock and barrel to UCD, with it’s on-site training pitches, swimming pool, all-weather pitch, a state of the art gym and plans for a running track and indoor athletics arena.

“If you have ambition to be at the top of the European tree, you’ve got to provide the facilities for your own players and also to bring in what you perceive as quality players from overseas,” says Dawson.

Leinster will treble their gym and office space, and Dawson reckons their relationship with the college and its sports science and sports medicine will be mutually beneficial.

There are also joint plans between the RDS and Leinster, who are 20-year tenants, to rebuild the old Anglesea Road stand.

“The feedback we’re getting from the research is that the supporters absolutely love going to the RDS,” says Kennedy, “but you’re comparing it with the O2 now, and the Aviva.”

They pitched the Aviva just right, filling it out four times this season although it was also Leinster’s good fortune that the first visitors back in October were Munster.

For the Clermont match, they emulated Mad Max Guazzini, the Stade Francais owner/benefactor and marketing genius. His philosophy is that you begin by selling the cheapest tickets in the ground at €5.

Leinster put the first 1,000 tickets for sale at €5, dubbing it ‘the hour of power’, and they were snapped up in three minutes.

Their team earning a home European quarter-final was a bonus, as was a home draw in the semi-finals, which was an ERC game, but two or three matches a season at the Aviva is fine, partly because the RDS remains their true home, and also because any more would diminish the value of season tickets there.

Now, Leinster stand on the threshold of joining an elite group of clubs to have won two Heineken Cups, thereby underlining their hard-won status as a true European superpower.

To lift a second European crown, all the more so were it to come with a league, would permeate through the whole machine.

“Personally I’d be so excited for the team and the club because I’d be very passionate about it,” says McEntee, “but for the Academy it would definitely ignite a drive and passion for younger players to go on to be a part of that. And you can see that already.

“If we hone in on it and if we don’t pay lip service to players coming through, they’re actually going to continue to come through. It’s the adrenalin rush and everything it gives you, you just want to be there again.”
Succeeds breeds success, all the way down the line.

John_Rambo

I'm afraid when it comes to marketing themselves, Leinster are lagging. If Munster do one thing good, it's marketing. They poached the senior head of sales from global giant PepsiCo where he led a team of 100 people, that's some move to a provincial sports club, that's how seriously they take it. The American style taglines and signage works incredibly well. It has attracted thousands of fans who wouldn't have ever followed rugby.

Good marketing = more fans = sponsorship = €€ = good players = silverware.

I worked on Toyota advertising and the Munster marketing people are very fussy about the brand.

Look at the production quality of this. It didn't come cheap and it's excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3pjHEAvd-Q8#at=25

Superbus

John_Rambo wrote: »

It has attracted thousands of fans who wouldn't have ever followed rugby.

Leinster have done that too in fairness. That both Leinster and Munster can regularly fill 20,000+ stadiums and on occasion a lot more is a testament to the work that both have done to promote themselves, considering it was only 10-15 years ago that there'd be little more than 1 man and his dog showing up to Donnybrook or Musgrave for a nothing match, and now we have 10,000 at a Treviso match on a Thursday during the 6Nations.

Certainly even I remember Donnybrook not being particularly buzzing, and I started going to matches 03-04 (age reasons, not bandwagon reasons). Things have changed a lot in a short space of time, obviously, and I think whoever does the marketing for Leinster should only be praised really.

(apart from pre-match/half-time entertainment - they should hang their heads in shame for those incessant catastrophes)

John_Rambo

Agreed Superbus, really good work from the Leinster, particularly, as Thormley says, they are virtually all ex-players. It had to be done, taking a few leafs out of the Munster marketing machine was clever.

phog

I think Leinster and Munster have capitalised from their success in the Magners and in Europe much more than most other clubs/provinces. Ulster were the first Irish province to win the H/Cup but never really followed on from there like Munster and Leinster have done. I suppose Munster and Leinster have been lucky too in the the H/C and the M/L have come on leaps and bounds too from the late 90's.

If the Welsh and the Scottish dont pull up their socks the ML could be in trouble and that wont help the Irish provinces.

David900

I'm no marketing expert but I think the Munster brand is more effective than the Leinster one. Leinster to me really seems to incorporate things that they should be seeking to leave behind. Some of the things they do play on old stereotypes that they should be trying to drop.

Jemo

David900 wrote: »

Some of the things they do play on old stereotypes that they should be trying to drop.

Care to expand?

They've done some excellent work, one of the most effective initiatives had to be adopting a sole bright colour for the team. The Navy, Royal Blue and yellow of the past has been more or less gradually removed to make way for 'the blues' essentially. Many will complain at the end of the day that we should stick to the traditional colours but having one clear colour is advantageous, especially from a marketing and flags point of view. Munster had the droves of red at matches and now they are faced with droves of bright blue, which is a lot more visible than the navy of the past. One thing I will say though is that the OLSC has had an enormous impact on the fan base too, just giving out a flag at a match to a child will likely spur that child to want to go to more games and be a souvenir of a good day out in the home.

Munster led the way with marketing in Irish rugby, second only to Stade Francais, Clermont and the All Blacks in world rugby. Leinster are catching up all the time though, and from that article it is clear they are looking around to see what works (the €5 tickets) and generally getting things bang on. Even for games which are likely to be quiet they sort out kids attractions or events such as Ladies day to bring in new and different fans.

Monty Burnz

If I had a criticism, it would be of the stupid music when tries are scored, all that 'razzmatazz' nonsense is so tired and 80s/90s. I'd love to know who they think it appeals to - ask anybody there and they'll tell you it's a total pain in the arse. People go in spite of that rubbish, not because of it.

John_Rambo

David900 wrote: »

I'm no marketing expert but I think the Munster brand is more effective than the Leinster one

Dead right. That's what happens when you hire heavy hitters in marketing. The taglines "Irish by birth...." etc... people gobble it up, the cash comes rolling in.

CatFromHue

the year ulster won it there were no english clubs in it. they also got a home quarter and semi in ravenhill and a final in dublin that was 97% supporting ulster.

i'm not knocking ulster in any way, i remember jumping up and down watching these games when they won and cheering them on in the final, but that tournament was a strange one. (ebbw vale lost 108 to 16 away to toulouse but then beat toulouse in the return game 19 to 11)

they lost all their games the next season in europe and only won one game the season after which would have stunted any growth off the field.

i believe munster have actually won awards for their marketing/business side of things. i also believe that with limerick being a small place it has helped the off field side of things. munster rugby was the big thing and people like being part of big things.

i hope this season was just a bad one for scotish clubs. they had been up the up for the last few from finishing 7th and 8th in 06/07, to 4th and 5th in 07/08, to 2nd and 7th in 08/09, and to 3rd and 6th in 09/10. thats a nice progression.

the welsh teams are a worry though. bizarrely they still have sights on joining up somehow with the english. if the english were to join with a celtic nation it would be the irish. we would offer a league soooo much more.

pajunior

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If I had a criticism, it would be of the stupid music when tries are scored, all that 'razzmatazz' nonsense is so tired and 80s/90s. I'd love to know who they think it appeals to - ask anybody there and they'll tell you it's a total pain in the arse. People go in spite of that rubbish, not because of it.

I think a good jingle would be good. One the fans can actually bounce around and join in. I've seen a few premiership(soccer) teams do it to great effect. On the days a team scores 3/4 the fans go nuts for the jingle. Should be more effective in rugby with more scores.
I do agree thought that the Leinster one is very naff.

wixfjord

Jemo wrote: »

Care to expand?

They've done some excellent work, one of the most effective initiatives had to be adopting a sole bright colour for the team. The Navy, Royal Blue and yellow of the past has been more or less gradually removed to make way for 'the blues' essentially. Many will complain at the end of the day that we should stick to the traditional colours but having one clear colour is advantageous, especially from a marketing and flags point of view. Munster had the droves of red at matches and now they are faced with droves of bright blue, which is a lot more visible than the navy of the past. One thing I will say though is that the OLSC has had an enormous impact on the fan base too, just giving out a flag at a match to a child will likely spur that child to want to go to more games and be a souvenir of a good day out in the home.

Munster led the way with marketing in Irish rugby, second only to Stade Francais, Clermont and the All Blacks in world rugby. Leinster are catching up all the time though, and from that article it is clear they are looking around to see what works (the €5 tickets) and generally getting things bang on. Even for games which are likely to be quiet they sort out kids attractions or events such as Ladies day to bring in new and different fans.

Clermont? Marketing? Really?

Anyway, I think the Leinster brand can still do with a lot of work, and the very nature of the province (there's huge cultural differences between Kilkenny and Dublin for example, which have been gradually reducing, but still need work) means it's a bigger challenge than Munster, who have traditionally been a "working mans" club, however flawed that ideology may be (whomever said that has obv never been to a Cork Con game!).

But, in saying that, success on the pitch, huge money being pumped into including the traditionally marginal areas like Laois, Kilkenny Offaly etc, and highly marketable players like Nacewa, Elsom, BOD, Kearney, Luke, Sexton, Strauss etc all lend well to how Leinster have expanded.

One thing they do need to concentrate on though, is ensuring that even when the good times are gone, that a lot of the 50,000 that filled the Aviva over the last few weekends are still there.
You could very easily fall back to 12,000 in the RDS for every game bar Munster, and that'd be a tragedy.

I've noticed Munster's declining steadily for the smaller games.

One other thing Leinster need to improve on is the atmosphere at smaller games, like last night. There's always been an element who go to Leinster games simply for the social thing, and are more interested in pints than the rugby.
The noise last night for example was non existent, bar the terrace as always. Perhaps they could look at having a terrace on both sides, or using Leo The Lion more, because it's a bit of a problem.


Overall though, great article, and with the likes of McGrath, Conway, Macken, O Malley, Luke, Sexton, Ryan, Ruddock, SOB, Maguire Kearney etc all looking like brilliant players, the future is bright, the future is blue!

One things for sure, Leinster have set them up better to maintain success than Munster or to a lesser degree Munster did, with a top class academy, a top class coach, a top class training facility on the way, and a new stand on the way too it seems, as well as the bonus of the Aviva.

All in all, good time to be blue!

wixfjord

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If I had a criticism, it would be of the stupid music when tries are scored, all that 'razzmatazz' nonsense is so tired and 80s/90s. I'd love to know who they think it appeals to - ask anybody there and they'll tell you it's a total pain in the arse. People go in spite of that rubbish, not because of it.

I like the Contempmi "charge" horn, but the rest is a bit much.

As for that ****ing announcer :mad::mad:
The sooner he's gone the better.

Monty Burnz

John_Rambo wrote: »

The taglines "Irish by birth...." etc... people gobble it up, the cash comes rolling in.

Do we know when the marketeers came up with that? How about 'stand up and fight', was that introduced there a year or two back?

Superbus

wixfjord wrote: »

or using Leo The Lion more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk

durkadurka

It's the players and the rugby dammit!

Fight_Night

wixfjord wrote: »

As for that ****ing announcer :mad::mad:
The sooner he's gone the better.

My only criticism of the Leinster marketing machine(ok technically not marketing but along those lines) is the voice of that announcer. Get rid of him, his voice is very irritating, I don't know anyone who likes him and he's not the most reliable for pronunciation. They should get a guy with a very deep voice.

wixfjord

Superbus wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk

Oh do not get me started on Leo! The man is a pure legend!

Seriously though, he does add to the atmosphere a lot with that drum!

Also, he's been changed during the season, and is now much more flexible looking!

wixfjord

Fight_Night wrote: »

My only criticism of the Leinster marketing machine(ok technically not marketing but along those lines) is the voice of that announcer. Get rid of him, his voice is very irritating, I don't know anyone who likes him and he's not the most reliable for pronunciation. They should get a guy with a very deep voice.

Oh it's not just his voice, he's constantly getting stuff wrong, he obviously hasn't a clue about rugby.

He's awful on names, and for example, he said "Lets welcome back our visitors Toulouse" after HT last night, and mentioned "Try for Leinster from Fergus McFadden" after a PENALTY in the first half.

Total eejit!

CatFromHue

leo has come on alot in the rds. he was largely ignored in donnybrook (i still ignore for the most part too though)

my favourite moment of his at donnybrook is hearing the announcer come on the mic asking for whoever stole leo's head to give it back! he stuck his head into the crowd to high five and what ever and someone grabbed it and ran off!

Superbus

wixfjord wrote: »

Oh do not get me started on Leo! The man is a pure legend!

Seriously though, he does add to the atmosphere a lot with that drum!

Also, he's been changed during the season, and is now much more flexible looking!

Let me tell you a tale.

10 year old Superbus is at Donnybrook. 10 year old Superbus goes to front of terrace where Lion is handing out flags to other like-minded children. 10 year old Superbus is clearly wearing a Leinster jersey with a red zipped-down fleece on over it.

10 year old Superbus is denied a flag due to wearing red.

The resentment still runs deep.

durkadurka

Do you remember in lansdowne for the munster game, he announced nacewa as converting a try, correctly, then he corrected himself to say it was sexton. Because the two are dead ringers...

wixfjord

Superbus wrote: »

Let me tell you a tale.

10 year old Superbus is at Donnybrook. 10 year old Superbus goes to front of terrace where Lion is handing out flags to other like-minded children. 10 year old Superbus is clearly wearing a Leinster jersey with a red zipped-down fleece on over it.

10 year old Superbus is denied a flag due to wearing red.

The resentment still runs deep.

You need some counselling and a hug from the new Leo! And a flag!

wixfjord

durkadurka wrote: »

Do you remember in lansdowne for the munster game, he announced nacewa as converting a try, correctly, then he corrected himself to say it was sexton. Because the two are dead ringers...

There have been an incredible amount of instances of it, and I'm not even a ST holder!
He's genuinely abysmal.

nivag7

This new leo looks pretty athletic alrite.

3 from 3 in the halftime kicking comp last week and a swan dive to win the race.

Had the look of a former player about him....... Richie Governey perhaps?

CatFromHue

wixfjord wrote: »

There have been an incredible amount of instances of it, and I'm not even a ST holder!
He's genuinely abysmal.

still better than the guy we had last year.

he did plugs for the ideal homes exhibition. that i dont want to hear

John_Rambo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Do we know when the marketeers came up with that? How about 'stand up and fight', was that introduced there a year or two back?

No, that was introduced in 1999 by Brian O'Brien the then Munster manager. Great move though, sounds great when the fans sing it. Don't know when the other sayings were introduced.

Check this out.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Bet-Munster-Can-Get-1-Million-Fans-Before-Any-Other-Province/127145700671789

John_Rambo

nivag7 wrote: »

This new leo looks pretty athletic alrite.

3 from 3 in the halftime kicking comp last week and a swan dive to win the race.

Had the look of a former player about him....... Richie Governey perhaps?

The Stig? :pac: See him doing his Mr. Universe poses? Funny.

Jemo

wixfjord wrote: »

Clermont? Marketing? Really?

Yeah, although it would have been the Michellin marketing team which done the work I would imagine. They have essentially linked their brand irrevocably with the rugby club and it has reaped huge benefits for them over the years. Its a different side of marketing but it worked very well.

Podge_irl

John_Rambo wrote: »

I'm afraid when it comes to marketing themselves, Leinster are lagging. If Munster do one thing good, it's marketing. They poached the senior head of sales from global giant PepsiCo where he led a team of 100 people, that's some move to a provincial sports club, that's how seriously they take it. The American style taglines and signage works incredibly well. It has attracted thousands of fans who wouldn't have ever followed rugby.

I'm genuniely confused by this. I think the Leinster marketing over the last number of seasons has been fantastic. Admittedly they were starting from a much lower base then Munster but events like family days at the RDS and Ladies' night have been a great success at getting more casual fans interested. The difference in Dublin the day Leinster played Toulouse from 5 years ago is phenomenal. The whole city knew the game was on. There were flags and banners all over the place.

There is still a good deal of work to do in the other counties (though I have no idea how they're doing seeing as I don't live in them) but players like SOB help greatly there too.

Leinster's whole set-up strikes me as oozing professionalism now from the top down. They may well not stay at the top of rugby, but they are giving themselves every chance to.

CatFromHue

Superbus wrote: »

Let me tell you a tale.

10 year old Superbus is at Donnybrook. 10 year old Superbus goes to front of terrace where Lion is handing out flags to other like-minded children. 10 year old Superbus is clearly wearing a Leinster jersey with a red zipped-down fleece on over it.

10 year old Superbus is denied a flag due to wearing red.

The resentment still runs deep.

ha!

let me tell you a tale

28 year old catfromhue is comfortably sitting 6 rows back from the front in the south terrace of the rds at the start of the 09/10 season.

28 year old catfromhue is wearing his 09 lions jersey with pride as he is a mega, yes a mega lions fan.

along comes leo the lion and procedes to mock catfromhue about his red lions jersey being like a munster jersey. queue the laughter from all around at catfromhue's situation. catfromhue first went to games in donnybrook in the 01/02 season and first went to games in lansdowne in the 97/98 season.

the resentment still runs deep!

Teferi

In fairness, red at a Leinster game. I'd expect a few comments...

CatFromHue

in fairness are you and leo 12!

myflipflops

Irish sports fans by their nature are pretty fickle and fair weathered. The best marketing Munster and Leinster can do is to continue to succeed on the pitch.

If either side had a couple of seasons of mid table obscurity in the Magners League and group stage knock outs in the Heineken Cup, you will see a big reduction in interest across the board. Fortunately, I think both provinces have the structures in place to ensure this won't happen.

CIARAN_BOYLE

myflipflops wrote: »

Irish sports fans by their nature are pretty fickle and fair weathered. The best marketing Munster and Leinster can do is to continue to succeed on the pitch.

If either side had a couple of seasons of mid table obscurity in the Magners League and group stage knock outs in the Heineken Cup, you will see a big reduction in interest across the board. Fortunately, I think both provinces have the structures in place to ensure this won't happen.

definitely true, Munster's average attendance are down 17% or so this season after getting knocked out in the group stages of the HEC

EDIT extra game in musgrave could have caused part of the drop, and the rest could be explained by having an extra two total fixtures

copacetic

CatFromHue wrote: »

28 year old catfromhue is wearing his 09 lions jersey with pride as he is a mega, yes a mega lions fan.

along comes leo the lion and procedes to mock catfromhue about his red lions jersey being like a munster jersey. queue the laughter from all around at catfromhue's situation. catfromhue first went to games in donnybrook in the 01/02 season and first went to games in lansdowne in the 97/98 season.

the resentment still runs deep!

I'd say that one was well deserved myself. If you are around that long you must have seen piles of Munster fans over the years wearing Lions jerseys in lieu of the Munster one.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

ha!

let me tell you a tale

28 year old catfromhue is comfortably sitting 6 rows back from the front in the south terrace of the rds at the start of the 09/10 season.

28 year old catfromhue is wearing his 09 lions jersey with pride as he is a mega, yes a mega lions fan.

along comes leo the lion and procedes to mock catfromhue about his red lions jersey being like a munster jersey. queue the laughter from all around at catfromhue's situation. catfromhue first went to games in donnybrook in the 01/02 season and first went to games in lansdowne in the 97/98 season.

the resentment still runs deep!

Surely Leinster fans should know not to wear red at a Munster/Leinster match?

As for the OP. I really really hope "The Leinster Way" doesn't catch on. Sounds so pretentious, just asking to be hated by other Irish rugby fans.

GerM

copacetic wrote: »

I'd say that one was well deserved myself. If you are around that long you must have seen piles of Munster fans over the years wearing Lions jerseys in lieu of the Munster one.

Nah, it's a jersey representing a number of areas one of which is Leinster. I wouldn't have any issue with someone wearing Lions gear to a Leinster game unless the opposition were wearing red. Of course it's preferable they wear blue but it's their choice. The only issue people have with it is that it's the same colour as a Munster jersey. Would like to think that if someone went to Thomond wearing an Auckland Blues top, they wouldn't get the piss taken out of them because it's a similar colour to Leinster's jersey.

The former mascot for Leinster could be a tool. I've seen him taking the piss out of several people who were clearly uncomfortable and his party trick in Donnybrook used be walking up to to opposition fans in the terraces and banging his drum in their faces. He took the whole thing a bit too seriously.

phog

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

definitely true, Munster's average attendance are down 17% or so this season after getting knocked out in the group stages of the HEC

EDIT extra game in musgrave could have caused part of the drop, and the rest could be explained by having an extra two total fixtures

Have you noticed there's a recession, it's hard to lose that amount of jobs and the knockon effect it has on disposable money and people leaving the country without clubs and fans being hit.

Teferi

CatFromHue wrote: »

in fairness are you and leo 12!

Jaysus, you're obviously very touchy. Relax yourself there. We'll get the wahmbulance for you.

Foxtrol

David900 wrote: »

I'm no marketing expert but I think the Munster brand is more effective than the Leinster one. Leinster to me really seems to incorporate things that they should be seeking to leave behind. Some of the things they do play on old stereotypes that they should be trying to drop.

In my opinion Munster and Leinster marketing have been targeting at two completely separate markets when aiming to gain new fan base.

Munsters marketing has focused on the pushing values that are tightly linked with the GAA, with each of "pride", "passion", "honesty", "players from the parish" you'd hear repeatedly mentioned during GAA match coverage. This along with the urban myth that they managed to generate that rugby is a working mans game in Munster has allowed it to garner support from many fans from many GAA territories that at one stage would have had reservations about supporting rugby.

Leinsters focus has actually been to a great extent aimed at children which in the long term could reap benefits. The whole match day experience seems to be directed more towards a young audience and in this way they're breaking into new markets as the children grow up, while also gaining the support of adults who might bring along with their kids with very little knowledge about the game themselves. Leinster dont have the option of leaving "the old stereotypes behind" as their training base, offices, both stadiums and a decent proportion of their fan base is in south dublin. Trying to distance themselves from this would be like Munster trying to disassociate itself from Limerick in the hope of gaining fans from other provinces. Their marketing has not hid from this but instead has tried to show that though a proportion of the team are from Dublin theres still a large number of players from all over the province and as such "they're you're team and you should go out and support them no matter what part of the province you're from".

Both teams have/are improving their match day facilities which assists greatly in keeping fans traveling back after their initial visit. As many have mentioned already the key thing the provinces need to do is to keep on winning as can be seen time & time again, success breeds more fans.

GerM

John_Rambo wrote: »

Look at the production quality of this. It didn't come cheap and it's excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3pjHEAvd-Q8#at=25

First time I've ever seen that....they'd want to up their marketing! :pac:

You also have to remember the starting points of the relative products. When things started taking off 10 years ago Leinster had little to draw upon aside from snide comments in relation to the make up of their fans and players whilst Munster had the All Blacks game and an image of working class heroes to build on. Don't underestimate the role Sky played in all of this too. I think they were the most significant factor in expanding the Munster brand in the past decade. They built their HEC coverage on them and brought them to a massive audience. They gave them the prime slot in their coverage for years and ensured the fixture list was arranged to give their pools dramatic finishes. Note how this has changed in the past 2 years since the crown has slipped and they've become a harder team to market to their audience.

Leinster were starting years behind Munster due to those factors. A massive amount of the population in Leinster didn't want to be associated with the team in any way due to the historical culture of rugby in the province. This was the case right up until 3 or 4 years ago. The turnaround in that time has been nothing short of remarkable when you look at it in those terms.

Monty Burnz

Foxtrol wrote: »

Munsters marketing has focused on the pushing values that are tightly linked with the GAA, with each of "pride", "passion", "honesty", "players from the parish" you'd hear repeatedly mentioned during GAA match coverage. This along with the urban myth that they managed to generate that rugby is a working mans game in Munster has allowed it to garner support from many fans from many GAA territories that at one stage would have had reservations about supporting rugby.

It's not a myth. Cork rugby may have centred around CBC and PBC in the past, but Limerick rugby has never been a game for the elite.

Donnielighto

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's not a myth. Cork rugby may have centred around CBC and PBC in the past, but Limerick rugby has never been a game for the elite.

He said Munster, not Limerick, you are looking to market at an entire province, not just one portion of.

Donnielighto

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Surely Leinster fans should know not to wear red at a Munster/Leinster match?

As for the OP. I really really hope "The Leinster Way" doesn't catch on. Sounds so pretentious, just asking to be hated by other Irish rugby fans.

How do you see it as being pretentious? Promotion is grand as long as it doesn't come with arrogance.

CatFromHue

it was a lions jersey at leinsters first home game the next season after the tour to sa, home to the dragons i think.

its quite different than a munster jersey.

Quint2010

The U17 team referred to in the article contained 8 players from one school. Anyone hazard a guess at which school?..

Monty Burnz

Donnielighto wrote: »

He said Munster, not Limerick, you are looking to market at an entire province, not just one portion of.

Yes, I read what he said. Munster rugby has in the past been primarily a game played in the private schools in Cork, and an everyman's game in Limerick. To say that they created a 'myth' that it is a working man's game ignores the fact that - for one of the twin centres of Munster rugby - it always has been.

Monty Burnz

Quint2010 wrote: »

The U17 team referred to in the article contained 8 players from one school. Anyone hazard a guess at which school?..

Hogwarts?

Donnielighto

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes, I read what he said. Munster rugby has in the past been primarily a game played in the private schools in Cork, and an everyman's game in Limerick. To say that they created a 'myth' that it is a working man's game ignores the fact that - for one of the twin centres of Munster rugby - it always has been.

To say that it is a working man's game isn't right htough, it is nearly all encompassing in munster in terms of social strata and focusing on one, as munster have done does an injustice to others if you dont recognise that it is a marketing ploy.

crisco10

For all the impressive marketing by both teams. The most important and effective marketing is done by the 22 players on the pitch. A winning team attracts attention. In the press, in merchandise sales, in match attendances etc. Marketing teams can only do a fraction of the work. That said I hope leinsters focus on children will promote more die hard fans in 10 years who will attend all games regardless of performance.