Irish Rail 22000s en route?

dowlingm

According to the spotters, the vessel CARMEN is carrying 22047-22050 somewhere west of Singapore. Hope the pirates don't get them!

Poxyshamrock

Where will these 22000s be deployed, do you know?

LXFlyer

Well there are 19 3 car sets to be delivered some of which will replace the 29k sets on Longford, enabling Sligo services to become fully ICR operated. Some will presumably strengthen the Kildare line local services, while others will fill the gaps on the Waterford, Mayo and Galway routes, and maybe extra Limericks (at least to sooth the nerves of one poster here).

Maybe some will be finally used to deliver an hourly Belfast service?

Cookie_Monster

I hope the ship sinks en route, horrid horrid trains. Never want to be stuck on one of them again.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I hope the ship sinks en route, horrid horrid trains. Never want to be stuck on one of them again.

Jeepers that's a bit strong. What exactly is "horrid" about them?

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

Jeepers that's a bit strong. What exactly is "horrid" about them?

seats are small and uncomfortable.
unbearably hot (whether the AC was broken or simply off I do not know)

getting off it from Wesport to Heuston I felt the same as stepping off a plane after a 6 hour flight.

Oliver1985

Better Dig my picnic chair out and get ready down the docks with cheese sambos

Cool Mo D

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I hope the ship sinks en route, horrid horrid trains. Never want to be stuck on one of them again.

I don't understand your complaints at all. They're good trains. They have seats that line up with the windows, they have power plugs at every seat, they are comfortable and spacious.
They're much nicer then the drab mark 3s, and a smoother ride then the Cork train. The only better train is the Enterprise, which is very comfortable despite its slowness.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

seats are small and uncomfortable.
unbearably hot (whether the AC was broken or simply off I do not know)

getting off it from Wesport to Heuston I felt the same as stepping off a plane after a 6 hour flight.

I'd disagree about the seats, but that's down to personal preference. That is something that people tend to differ on quite significantly.

It does sound like the A/C was not working on that particular train - hardly something to judge an entire fleet by as "horrid"! I've generally found the on-board temperature to be ok, but there have been occasional reports of the settings being either too hot or too cold.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I don't understand your complaints at all. They're good trains. They have seats that line up with the windows, they have power plugs at every seat, they are comfortable and spacious.
They're much nicer then the drab mark 3s, and a smoother ride then the Cork train. The only better train is the Enterprise, which is very comfortable despite its slowness.

I'd have to agree about the fact that every seat lines up with a window, and the addition of power sockets.

To be fair to the Mark 3s however they had been left to become drab by IE and were not properly maintained - a refurbishment would have produced trains as good as any available on the market, albeit with the issue of being locomotive hauled and requiring a guard to operate.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

Well there are 19 3 car sets to be delivered some of which will replace the 29k sets on Longford, enabling Sligo services to become fully ICR operated. Some will presumably strengthen the Kildare line local services, while others will fill the gaps on the Waterford, Mayo and Galway routes, and maybe extra Limericks (at least to sooth the nerves of one poster here).

Maybe some will be finally used to deliver an hourly Belfast service?

One set is intended for Westport-Athlone shuttles to increase the Mayo line to five trains a day. This will release one three car set from both the 7:30 and 15:30 Heuston to Galway/Westport. Two 3 car sets will come onto the Dundalk-Dublin services while two will replace the 29000s on the Sligo/Longford workings; this line may get another six car set. Rosslare will also see it's railcars replaced, a set is needed for the Tralee shuttle and the WRC is due some as well; these will be made up from idle sets on Limerick/Galway services.

Enterprise services won't see any hourly services until it's long awaited track renewal plan is carried out; when it is so it won't be with 22000 sets.

CIE

Haven't been on one yet, but they don't look particularly nice. "Lining up with the windows" doesn't faze me. I can see why people miss the Mark 3...

Cookie_Monster

Plastic fantastic, suitable for commuting sure, but not IC journeys.

Given how many idle 201s and mk3s there are to ever even go ahead with this order was madness and hugely wasteful.

Losty Dublin

Having traveled on them a good bit in the last 2 years, I have to say that while I find them comfortable and airy, they are sterile and a bit impersonal inside.

My Mum, who is somewhat mobility impaired, finds them more comfortable than Mark 3s; she likes the fact that they have seats that are easier for her to move in and out of, the toilets are easy enough to access and doors and entry gangway are also roomy to get in and out of; this is also handy for carrying bags on board.

I'd rate them over a Mark 3 overall .

highlydebased

lxflyer wrote: »

routes, and maybe extra Limericks (at least to sooth the nerves of one poster here).

:rolleyes:

Transportuser09

I think they're quite comfortable trains to travel in, nice seats, smooth ride quality, what more could you ask for. I can see why people aren't happy about 15 year old (?) locos being sidelined but it surely makes the railway more efficient to run in terms of overheads. It's just progress. The mk3 coaches would have needed money spent on them by now anyway. Besides we really were behind other European countries a few years ago, were railcars were the norm for years.

I don't really see how they're not suitable for Intercity journeys, the Commuter railcars were (clue was in the name!) but I don't see the problem with the 22000s. It seems that alot of enthusiasts don't like them because they got rid of what they deem to be more "interesting" trains but at the end of the day that's not a valid argument against them.

dowlingm

For me the priority should be to get these trains commissioned on existing 22K routes so 22001-6 can be rotated through the Newry-Dublin commuter run for gauge testing and TPWS certification, with 2 out of 6 then replacing the 29Ks in regular service. This will allow 15mph higher top speeds where limits permit on this service.

It would be nice if these were SDO fitted so 2 out of 3 could replace a sole 22K on the Wicklow runs. There's no danger of that kind of mad forward planning though right?

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

Haven't been on one yet, but they don't look particularly nice. "Lining up with the windows" doesn't faze me. I can see why people miss the Mark 3...

If the picture of the mark3 was taken from the same spot at the end of the carriage it would look wose and show the true horror of those old heaps. They were always noisy and always rattled from every loose panel even when stationary and the heating was a nightmare being on full during the summer and regularly off in the winter months, also the lights were usually dirty or not working, they were musty dirty and smelly and the toilets were awful as was the uncomfortable seats.

Good riddance to bad rubbish:D

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

If the picture of the mark3 was taken from the same spot at the end of the carriage it would look wose and show the true horror of those old heaps. They were always noisy and always rattled from every loose panel even when stationary and the heating was a nightmare being on full during the summer and regularly off in the winter months, also the lights were usually dirty or not working, they were musty dirty and smelly and the toilets were awful as was the uncomfortable seats.

Good riddance to bad rubbish:D

Four legs good, two legs bad, eh? If the 22000s suffer from the same lack of regular maintenance, let's see how long they last. That kind of stuff means a lot when it comes to taxpayer expenditure. You do remember how long the Cravens were in service, don't you...?

Drimnagh Road

The problem is with the 22000s, like so many other trains in Ireland these days, that they do not have a diesel loco on the front.

Therefore, they are not real trains.

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

Four legs good, two legs bad, eh? If the 22000s suffer from the same lack of regular maintenance, let's see how long they last. That kind of stuff means a lot when it comes to taxpayer expenditure. You do remember how long the Cravens were in service, don't you...?

Oh they were sh1t because of lousy maintenance? Who was responsible for the maintenance only Irish Rail in Inchicore, maybe they should be sacking all their incompetant tradespeople and get in people who will do the job as if they want to work and who might be able to put a few screws back the same way they took them out?

You are right though as the new trains are already scarred by Irish Rail maintenance as most have panels that were not replaced properly after being opened for access to the inner workings of the DMU's and they rattle continously during any journey. it is as if they are delibrately doing this much like dublin bus staff cant put the bus seats back properly after they have been cleaned.

Anyway for now they look nice and are far superior to any mark3 or mark4 or De Deitrich and long may they last and feck the begrudgers who would have all us west of The Pale savages travelling steerage on his lordships loco-hauled train

Captain Chaos

Will sets 22--9 and 10 be replaced by new sets with new numbers or will the replacement sets be renumbered 9 and 10. 9 and 10 were officially scrapped due to shipping damage that went unoticed until servicing in testing so it will be interesting to see if the set numbers are reissued.

foggy_lad

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

The problem is with the 22000s, like so many other trains in Ireland these days, that they do not have a diesel loco on the front.

Therefore, they are not real trains.

That being the case than "real train" services in Ireland are Finished! There are no suitable lines in the country for loco-hauled passenger trains unless passengers are not particular about when their train will arrive. The cork line is too slow 3hours is an absolute joke! and belfast is the same and also crippled by cross border compatibility issues. the track is not good enough to carry the locomotives and upgrading is pointless as speed restrictions will still have the services crippled in areas where the line and culverts viaducts etc cant be upgraded. too much of the important lines are only single track and some even still use the old token system.

something needs to be done and the best start is to get rid of loco-hauled passenger services which cost too much and get reliable DMU's which can keep to any timetable which the cork train is currently unable to do!

ps: i am not really having a go at Irish Rail more like applauding them for the new trains DMU's

Run_to_da_hills

Critical of them at first, I now sigh with relief when one of these turns up instead of the MK4 DVT's Dublin bound at Limerick Junction. As DMU's go they are very quiet, 220v at every seat and window alignment also makes the journey more bearable.

I'm not a fan of plastic fantastic but in this day and age it is probably the only style thats available from drawing boards on any regional DMU set.

Run_to_da_hills

I hope 22047-22050 are checked for radiation when they arrive. :pac:

monument

Prefer the new carriages -- light, airy, plugs at every seat, better access and space for prams/wheelchairs.

There's some kinks with problems such as the air conditioning being off or on too high, but those things can be fixed.

I did prefer the seats on the Mark 3s, but that could partly be because I was used to using the out-of-service first class carriages on the Westport line before they were decommissioned.

The only real downside is cargo space for bikes and other larger items.

Transportuser09

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

The problem is with the 22000s, like so many other trains in Ireland these days, that they do not have a diesel loco on the front.

Therefore, they are not real trains.

I don't see that as a problem. If anything it makes things better, less costs involved with shunting, easier to split up allowing for greater service potential. Ireland was lagging behind the UK in this respect for years, one of the positive aspects of Fearn's tenure as been the modernisation of IÉ operations, finally dragging them into the late 20th century (albeit in the 21st!). I know enthusiasts prefer locos and thats fair enough but the railway should be run as a transport system, moving people around as efficiently as possible, not as a glorified trainset.

Cookie_Monster

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I don't see that as a problem. If anything it makes things better, less costs involved with shunting, easier to split up allowing for greater service potential. Ireland was lagging behind the UK in this respect for years, one of the positive aspects of Fearn's tenure as been the modernisation of IÉ operations, finally dragging them into the late 20th century (albeit in the 21st!).

railcars are not a modern replacement for loco hauled stock merely an alternate, most of Europe still runs on loco hauled services, albeit mainly elec. Most main French, German, Italian, Swiss mainliners are loco, most, if not all high speed trains are loco hauled. It works and it works well in combination with DVTs, is a lot more flexible than fixed rakes or railcars.
Railcar usage is fine, but it is senseless to spend 10s of millions on them while leaving to rot mid life mk3's that could, for a fraction of the cost, be overhauled, lashed up in semi permanent rakes with a DVT and loco and run the exact same service.

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

railcars are not a modern replacement for loco hauled stock merely an alternate, most of Europe still runs on loco hauled services, albeit mainly elec. Most main French, German, Italian, Swiss mainliners are loco, most, if not all high speed trains are loco hauled. It works and it works well in combination with DVTs, is a lot more flexible than fixed rakes or railcars.
Railcar usage is fine, but it is senseless to spend 10s of millions on them while leaving to rot mid life mk3's that could, for a fraction of the cost, be overhauled, lashed up in semi permanent rakes with a DVT and loco and run the exact same service.

how long does it take to split 2x3 car DMU? compare that to the time it takes to "lash up" 2x3 car mark3s with a loco and dvt on each set, it is faster and less labour intensive and therefore a lot cheaper to operate the DMUs.

loco-hauled is a thing of the past or solely for freght as it is not suitable for Irish passenger services.

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

loco-hauled is a thing of the past or solely for freght as it is not suitable for Irish passenger services.

we're somehow special and different to the rest of Europe are we? well, apart from being a total basket case country

Stonewolf

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Most main French, German, Italian, Swiss mainliners are loco, most, if not all high speed trains are loco hauled.

The newer ICE sets are EMUs and the next generation of TGV is an EMU, the future is multiple. The fact is that operationally MUs are superior to loco haulage for passenger use, they're more flexible, more redundant, accelerate faster, cope with inclines better and don't have to worry about heavy locos damaging the tracks. Even loco hauled trains are mostly fixed consists these days so there's no flexibility lost there.

I love a nice loco but that's no reason to hobble our rail network with outdated practices. Whatever your reservations about the exact product of the tender, IR were right to buy the 22000s. Now they just need to stop focusing on the big flashy headlines and do something about the boring everyday stuff that's now hampering the network.

dermo88

I for one am happy to many people from Irishrailwaynews here now, and that we can debate without obstacles being placed by backward individuals imposing arbitrary rules based on the ladies rotary club luncheon. Someone contact Mr Casterton and inform him that his sites popularity is going down "going forward" in his infamous words when he banned me and many others.

I may not agree with your sentiments about 22K's not being real trains. The same may have been said in the 1960's about the (then) new Diesel A Class, 121's etc.

Regarding the 22K units, I hope that they are maintained properly. I find them comfortable and prefer them to the loco hauled stock. For the first time ever, a standardised brand is possible on the rail network.

Thank heaven they were bought before the economy tanked. Otherwise, the network had a very limited long term future. This secures the network for a generation at least.

Judgement Day

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Will sets 22--9 and 10 be replaced by new sets with new numbers or will the replacement sets be renumbered 9 and 10. 9 and 10 were officially scrapped due to shipping damage that went unoticed until servicing in testing so it will be interesting to see if the set numbers are reissued.

Dribblers this way please: http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

railcars are not a modern replacement for loco hauled stock merely an alternate, most of Europe still runs on loco hauled services, albeit mainly elec. Most main French, German, Italian, Swiss mainliners are loco, most, if not all high speed trains are loco hauled. It works and it works well in combination with DVTs, is a lot more flexible than fixed rakes or railcars.
Railcar usage is fine, but it is senseless to spend 10s of millions on them while leaving to rot mid life mk3's that could, for a fraction of the cost, be overhauled, lashed up in semi permanent rakes with a DVT and loco and run the exact same service.

I heard rumors that SNCF will be gradually phasing out all loco hauled pax train sets in favor of DMU /EMU and will be confining what locos they have to freight and maintenance duties.

It makes sense, Locos are a dead weight on tracks and cause acute wear and tear compared to multiple sets.

Solair

In Spain most of the new high speed regional trains were DMUs They also have the fastest DMUs in the world. They go well above 200kmh in service.

Locomotive hauling is no longer neccessary due largely to improvements in control systems. It's very easy to control multiple motors or engines with modern IT systems

nanu nanu

I've asked about this before with no response, so i looked into it a bit further. The people that are repairing the damaged train are maintaining the new trains in Portlaoise. The next question is who is modifying the trains for Rotem in Heuston?

CIE

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I heard rumors that SNCF will be gradually phasing out all loco hauled pax train sets in favor of DMU/EMU and will be confining what locos they have to freight and maintenance duties.

It makes sense, Locos are a dead weight on tracks and cause acute wear and tear compared to multiple sets.

Rumours are rumours. The more engines you have on a train, the more acute wear and tear you incur on the trainset because of more moving parts, and they damage the track more than trailer cars due to those extra moving parts and the extra weight associated with them; so you end up with even more costs to the taxpayer. Locos do not damage the track as much as people are trying to imply.

solair wrote: »

In Spain most of the new high speed regional trains were DMUs They also have the fastest DMUs in the world. They go well above 200km/h in service

RENFE doesn't have a single DMU class that goes that fast. Their fastest-looking DMU, the Class 598, has a top speed of 160 km/h (about 100 mph, same as the 22000-class' purported top speed); I don't know of any RENFE DMU class that can match the Virgin Voyager for top speed. Maybe you're getting the DMUs mixed up with the EMU class 490 Alaris Pendolino (tilt train), whose top speed is 220 km/h?

Cookie_Monster

Haven't IE found that the 22ks also use more fuel than the loco hauled services they replaced? I'm sure that came up on here a while back...

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Haven't IE found that the 22ks also use more fuel than the loco hauled services they replaced? I'm sure that came up on here a while back...

Only when they were left running 24/7 like the loco loco's!

Seriously they are far cleaner more comfortable and generally faster and capable of arriving and departing intermediate stations on time unlike loco-hauled sets which are dog slow on Dublin-Cork. the seats are easier for all to get in and out of, the decor while a bit plastic is lovely and bright and easily cleaned, they are bought and paid for now so get over it and get on board or take the bus;)

BenShermin

I suffered the discomfort of a 22K recently from Galway to Dublin. On a bank holiday Monday morning from 9am I had to listen to broken panels rattling for over 2 hours. My planned sleep was out the window as a result:mad:.

The ride quality was worse than a ferry in rough weather this caused the constant rattle from the panel to become louder. Ride was especially poor between Portarlington and Kildare (might have been tracks fault in fareness).

The best part of all was when I was halfway through a jimmy riddle in the automatic toilet a womans voice from a speaker starts SHOUTING at me telling me that the toilet was strictly non-smoking and that I had to extinguish my cigarette immidiately and that a staff member had been informed. I wasn't actually smoking by the way:cool:.

I regularly travel on (unrefurbished) MK3s in the UK and never have any of afore mentioned problems. Long story short I don't think very much of the 22Ks at all.

foggy_lad

BenShermin wrote: »

I suffered the discomfort of a 22K recently from Galway to Dublin. On a bank holiday Monday morning from 9am I had to listen to broken panels rattling for over 2 hours. My planned sleep was out the window as a result:mad:.

The ride quality was worse than a ferry in rough weather this caused the constant rattle from the panel to become louder. Ride was especially poor between Portarlington and Kildare (might have been tracks fault in fareness).

The best part of all was when I was halfway through a jimmy riddle in the automatic toilet a womans voice from a speaker starts SHOUTING at me telling me that the toilet was strictly non-smoking and that I had to extinguish my cigarette immidiately and that a staff member had been informed. I wasn't actually smoking by the way:cool:.

I regularly travel on (unrefurbished) MK3s in the UK and never have any of afore mentioned problems. Long story short I don't think very much of the 22Ks at all.

Yes on all the brand new trains it is very embarassing that steam off your urine or even someone sweating a bit sets off the smoke detectors.

I cant agree with your account of the comfort of the trains as they are more comfortable than any other trains Irish Rail have used in the last 40 years! The tracks to Galway are embarrassingly bad and there is no money to sort them out now that the country has been bled dry.

BenShermin

foggy_lad wrote: »

Seriously they are far cleaner more comfortable and generally faster and capable of arriving and departing intermediate stations on time unlike loco-hauled sets which are dog slow on Dublin-Cork.

Would the slowness of Dublin to Cork have nothing to do with the fact that some eejit at IÉ decided that it was a good idea to have a loco hauled intercity train stopping at nearly every bloody stop on the line?

Or perhaps it could have something to do with the amount of speed restrictions on the line?

Or maybe it could be the fact that the MK4s have had realiablity and ride quality issues from day one and that IÉ should have sent then straight back to CAF before the warranty ran out?

Let's not forget the "dog slow" non-stop loco hauled Dublin to Cork trains in the 1990s that were timetabled for 2 hours 25 minutes!!

Transportuser09

I don't know if its true or not, but I would be surprised if a 22000 uses more fuel than a loco hauled train, especially considering the latter would require fuel for both the engine and the generator van.

SeanW

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I hope the ship sinks en route, horrid horrid trains. Never want to be stuck on one of them again.

lxflyer wrote: »

Jeepers that's a bit strong. What exactly is "horrid" about them?

Perhaps that they don't have a locomotive at the front?

From what I understand, most of the griping about these trains comes from rabid trainspotters. I quite like 22ks, ok maybe a little on the noisy side but the seats are nice, and plentiful, the decor is bright but not clinically sterile, and there are tables and power sockets at each seat.

I quite liked the BREL carriages, well the Mark 2Ds at least (never got to use the Mark 3s) but a lot of people I knew described the trains of the time as "manky," "brutal" etc. I also hated the 29000s due to them not being designed for long distance travel, e.g. 100km or more. The 22000s are definitely an improvement over both, especially the 29000s.

DWCommuter

foggy_lad wrote: »

The tracks to Galway are embarrassingly bad and there is no money to sort them out now that the country has been bled dry.

Eh, but haven't we just spent millions and millions relaying all that track?:rolleyes:

Solair

The rattling panels issue was a problem on the MK3 trains too. Irish Rail are just very sloppy at putting things back together when they take them apart for maintenance.

I remember a light fitting actually fell on my head in a MK3 because it wasn't put together correctly!

Also what's wrong with Irish Rail that they have never been able to get vestibule doors to work.

The MK3 doors were invariably stuck open which meant that you heard creaks and groans and track noise the whole way and it totally nullified the already poor MK3 air conditioning!

On the CAF Intercity coaches on the Cork line the doors also seem to now be invariably jammed open. The insulation in junction between the coaches is much better, so they aren't quite so dramatically annoying.

and on the Mitsui DMUs I've been on, on more than one occasion the doors have been jammed open.

I thought those vestibule doors were an integral part of the fire safety system on these trains i.e. to prevent a fire spreading from coach to coach. They also are very important for ensuring that the air conditioning system works efficiently.

Why are they jamming ? Or, do IE just switch them off for some reason?

They must be losing a fortune in wasted fuel as the air con will run much harder with those doors sitting open as it will be unable to keep the carriage temperature correct due to loss of air through the junction between the carriages and when the train pulls up at stations and the doors open.

purplepanda

So I assume IE do have enough extra trained drivers to upgade the frequency of services & make the best potential use of these new trains?

Or will they be put into storage due to increasing fuel costs & / or driver shortages / extra salary costs?

With the reports of more regional line closures they might even end up with too many trainsets for their ever decreasing network..............:pac:

Cookie_Monster

purplepanda wrote: »

With the reports of more regional line closures they might even end up with too many trainsets for their ever decreasing network..............:pac:

no doubt they will, but never fear, it's a great excuse to bin more perfectly usable stock such as 2600/2700 class rail cars.;)

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no doubt they will, but never fear, it's a great excuse to bin more perfectly usable stock such as 2600/2700 class rail cars.;)

The 2600 won't be retired just yet, even thought they are close to the end of their projected life. Some sets are earmarked for additional capactiy in the Cork region and Arklow/Dundalk services while additional services are planned for the KRC region. 2700 are due a heavy refurbishment in the coming months, once there are sufficient 26, 28 and 29 class railcars to cover it's duties.

Run_to_da_hills

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The 2600 won't be retired just yet, even thought they are close to the end of their projected life. Some sets are earmarked for additional capactiy in the Cork region and Arklow/Dundalk services while additional services are planned for the KRC region. 2700 are due a heavy refurbishment in the coming months, once there are sufficient 26, 28 and 29 class railcars to cover it's duties.

They will just block off the driver cab pass throughs, give them all a lick of paint and new identities.

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They will just block off the driver cab pass throughs, give them all a lick of paint and new identities.

Or strip out the engines and hook em up to 201s? History's repeating itself in many other ways!

Oliver1985

Going by this link the boat is due into Dublin in a few hours

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=266339000