"Hey Paddy, will ya put the sticker onto the Dell boxes for us?!?"...

HellFireClub

This kind of sh*t really irks me:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0505/breaking4.html

In a country with just under half a million people on the dole, the answer yet again, seems to be connecting up with other people on another continent who seem to be more intelligent or something than those of us here in Ireland.

Why is this the only way that job creation can be viewed in this state, which is a policy of the IDA throwing money at FDI so we can have another multinational here that will bring low skill jobs here???

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

The scheme, which will be announced as part of next week’s jobs initiative, will involve a finder’s fee of €3,000 for every job that results from the project.

Hey here is an idea, instead of giving 3000 after 2 years (will there be a nonbankrupted "state" in 2 years to honor its commitment :P or euro for that matter :eek:)
Why not reduce a companies employee side tax liabilities by that amount or reduce the paperwork involved and then give 3000 to top.

EggsAckley

What's wrong with low-skilled jobs anyway? There will always be a low/no skilled sector of the available work force no matter where we rank internationally, they need to be provided with an environment which provides employment for their skills, or lack of, base just like every sector further up the chain, as well as plenty of skilled workers willing to take low skilled employment until something better comes along. And anyway low skilled jobs require administration and servicing by higher skilled jobs, either directly employed or contracted. Turning our noses up at growth in any job sector given the state we are in is crazy

dan_d

To be fair to the man, he hasn't exactly said that. He is saying some right things, and at least he seems to be getting the general message...."sort it the f*&k out"!!!!

Feck it, what Irish people do best is emigrate.Is there any other nation out there whose people are so willing to consider the world their oyster? I mean seriously. We have to be in some way unique on that front. I don't think it's a good thing for the country to be in such a state that people have to emigrate, but at the same time, it's a peculiar thing in the Irish psyche that people do consider emigration to be an option. Unemployment is 20% in Spain right now. I fairly sure (though I've nothing to back it up other than general knowledge of Spanish friends) that the Spaniards aren't leaving the country in their droves as we are. Silver linings and all that....

So why shouldn't we tap into those who have emigrated? I'm job hunting myself and all I hear every day is that I should use my contacts, get in touch with everyone I've ever known no matter how tenuous the connection, annoy everybody I've ever come across, utilise that wonderful (not) networking tool that is LinkedIn....isn't that all Enda Kenny is suggesting, on a larger scale? World-wide networking?? God knows we excel at that too.

He hasn't focused in on multi-nationals - quite the opposite, he highlights medium and small businesses. From my position, I'm just delighted there's a slight chance that something may be done to help this situation. What's gone so far has not worked. I do agree about the quality of jobs created though - we seem to have an obsession with sales and call-centre jobs, instead of more of an emphasis on higher quality jobs. And there's a huge amount of BTEA courses out there right now - the drive is for people to upskill - so we should be able to focus on higher quality jobs - if for nothing else, than to prevent a crash like this having such an impact again in the future.

Spacedog

what bugs me is that the Irish practically built the London underground, half of NYC, and countless infrastructural projects around the world. but when it comes to building our own infrastructure, our government can't wait to tender a bunch of multinational countries to charge us hundreds of millions to cement a tram line into the ground. the same as the ones there 100 years ago.

there is no reason that, given the materials and resources, that irish students, and engineers can't develop open source style infrestructure projects, build our own engines, for our own trams, build our own underground system in every city, and tram system in every town, build factories and start making stuff again.

trouble is we'll all been dicking about in offices doing meaningless horseshit for too long and forgot what it's like to pick up a shovel.

Sponge Bob

Spacedog wrote: »

our government can't wait to tender a bunch of multinational countries to charge us hundreds of millions to cement a tram line into the ground. the same as the ones there 100 years ago.

That is because our greaseball contractors charge 30% more than the furriners do for the same job , mainly so that they can then brown envelope the local council and FF politicians.

dan_d

It's because we are in the EU, therefore under EU rules all projects above a certain value must be put out to tender on an international basis.

This conversation has been had in another thread. Irish building and engineering firms are benefitting hugely from this process as it's allowing them to bid for work in other countries, and in many cases, is the only thing stopping them from closing down altogether. It's a 2 way street, so there's no point complaining about it.

However I take your point about Irish engineers and the infrastructure. Now should be the time we invest in this stuff.

jimmycrackcorm

There are a lot of people out there who aren't either willing or capable of doing anything other than low-skilled jobs so they need them at least.

hinault

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Wnakers like Professor Ed Walsh have been spoofing for years about how our education system has been the envy of the world.

We've poured billions in to the Irish education system in the past decade.

Charlatans like Walsh and his ilk are grade A chancers.


Get back to doing the basic stuff that we've always done well. Agriculture, tourism, hard graft.
Smart economy is bull****.

hinault

EggsAckley wrote: »

What's wrong with low-skilled jobs anyway? There will always be a low/no skilled sector of the available work force no matter where we rank internationally, they need to be provided with an environment which provides employment for their skills, or lack of, base just like every sector further up the chain, as well as plenty of skilled workers willing to take low skilled employment until something better comes along. And anyway low skilled jobs require administration and servicing by higher skilled jobs, either directly employed or contracted. Turning our noses up at growth in any job sector given the state we are in is crazy

There is nothing wrong with low/no skill work per se.
Except when it comes to cost, can we compete with other low cost economies?

I think it would be a good idea if the government did turn it's attention to these type of industries instead of wishing their lives away on the "smart economy".

Like a lot of things arising from the Celtic Tiger this country got ahead of itself when it concluded that we're "smart" and/or "economic".
We're neither.

Running across to America and paying out huge IDA subsidies to US multinationals to set up companies offering a very limited amount of jobs, only for the gargantuan profits generated by that limited workforce to be repatriated asap, is not a industrial policy that is long term or sustainable.

Amhran Nua

hinault wrote: »

Get back to doing the basic stuff that we've always done well. Agriculture, tourism, hard graft.

Really? My brother just emigrated to Australia and took his shiny new IT degree with him. Now he's on over €40,000 a year, thanks very much. Agriculture isn't the answer, there is no shortage of skilled people here (or there wasn't before they all emigrated), there's a shortage of decent jobs for them.

Getting investment from abroad is well and good if you can manage it, but it just highlights the inadequacies of government thinking even today. I don't think anyone will be too shocked if the jobs initiative rolls around and turns out to be a raft of internships.

Bye bye more skilled graduates.

maninasia

The problem is expecting the government to 'create' a job for you, that type of attitude. You should educate yourself for a job or start your own business.
The other issue is constantly looking West i.e. the US, when the economic gravity of the world has moved East.

dan_d

That's true but the problem right now is that there are thousands of educated people out there and not enough jobs for them.Many just don't have the money to re educate to the level needed....it's ok (well, it's not, but it's easier) if you have only the LC or a cert or something....you can upskill....but if you have say a degree and a masters, what can you do except pay out a load more money for another Masters or something?Money which unemployed people don't have.

I suppose it's not so much about the Gov creating jobs for people, it's more about them creating the conditions for jobs to be created, rather than the completely stagnant situation we've had over the last 2 yrs, due to nobody having a clue what's going on or what's going to happen next.People and companies and banks have been sitting on their hands, waiting.Which has made the situation worse.

hinault

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Really? My brother just emigrated to Australia and took his shiny new IT degree with him. Now he's on over €40,000 a year, thanks very much. Agriculture isn't the answer, there is no shortage of skilled people here (or there wasn't before they all emigrated), there's a shortage of decent jobs for them.

Getting investment from abroad is well and good if you can manage it, but it just highlights the inadequacies of government thinking even today. I don't think anyone will be too shocked if the jobs initiative rolls around and turns out to be a raft of internships.

Bye bye more skilled graduates.

He's got a shiny new IT degree. Him and thousands of other, Nua.

It is starting to become somewhat grating listening to people who, because they have a degree, think that they have some sort of entitlement to a job!

The fact is that your brother is probably competing with a guy with a shiny degree in the sub-continent who's on €20k.
Therefore IT roles which could be created here in this country are created where the cost is lower.

Lets look at all of this logically.
Education is about to become a lot more expensive in this country.
Indebted graduates will not be able to find a job here because IT professionals in other locations are cheaper to hire therefore companies will drift to those candidates.
Bit like training thousands of Irish nurses only for them to end working in Britain or the Middle East.
Foreign territories subsidised care of the Irish taxpayer.
This is not a sustainable policy either on a fiscal basis or on an economic policy basis.

Ireland needs to play to it's strengths. We need to develop an industrial policy which plays to those strengths. Investment in agriculture and food produce would generate economic activity and it would create irish jobs. The labour invested in those jobs would create profit. Profit which is retained in this country.

Instead what we have is a policy based upon creating graduates. Graduates who are indebted for the most part. Graduates who work for foreign companies for the most part and who's labour generates profit which is repatriated asap elsewhere.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

flutered

It is an absolutely ridiculous aspiration for a country where primary schools still devote more time to religion than science, and where only 15 percent of Leaving Cert candidates do honours maths, 10 percent do honours chemistry, and 8 percent do honours physics. In DCU, the first-year dropout rate in science and technology courses is almost 40 percent.

Key knowledge-economy countries such as South Korea have much higher levels of educational attainment in key STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) subjects. Education is the backbone upon which their smart economy is built. We just don't have that backbone.[/QUOTE]

it is because that the basics are not instilled in pupils during primary school, i am led to believe that 4th class it the most important class of them all.

Amhran Nua

hinault wrote: »

It is starting to become somewhat grating listening to people who, because they have a degree, think that they have some sort of entitlement to a job!

I don't neccessarily think we're arguing on different sides of the fence here. What I was trying to say is that we do in fact have a skilled workforce that is competitive on any technical level.

What we're seeing is business groups saying "we need lots of skilled workers but we don't want to pay them anything". The government is saying "no problem, we'll even fix it so they don't get the dole unless they work for you for free, so they make profits for you or starve - just like we did with the banks!" In fact they are probably promising free interns to everone on Wall Street right now.

And now some geniuses are suggesting that they pay the full cost for the privelege of getting educated to enter into this system? Is there a more comprehensive collection of policies for shooting our own economic foot off?

hinault wrote: »

Investment in agriculture and food produce would generate economic activity and it would create irish jobs.

Okay, well lets get more specific. How will agriculture supply a quarter million jobs?

HivemindXX

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't know what the situation is now but in my time there this was almost entirely due to the points system. Applied Maths and Applied Physics were difficult courses with extremely low points requirements because they were unpopular. This meant that almost any student who passed their leaving cert and got a C in Honours Maths and/or Physics would be given a place in those courses and then wash out.

I know because I was one of those people (actually I got a B in both honours Maths and Physics and it took me until 2nd year to wash out). On the plus side when I transferred to a computer science degree the maths was laughably easy and my reaction to those students who complained about how hard it was did not make me popular.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This is one of the main problems in the Irish education system. I left primary school in 2003 and had received no science education whatsoever, which particularly annoyed me as I liked science when I was younger and would have loved to study it in school. When people enter secondary school they're introduced to a brand new subject, which shouldn't be the case.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Neddyusa

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Okay, well lets get more specific. How will agriculture supply a quarter million jobs?

The agri-food and drink sector in Ireland currently employs over 200,000 people.
84,000 directly on farms, fishing and forestry;
46,000 directly in food and drinks processing;
60,000 indirectly in food and drinks distribution, exporting and direct service provision to food companies;
20,000 in service provision to farmers; seed and fertilisers, machinery and plant, other farm inputs, farm consultancy, farm accountants, etc, etc.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/empandunempilo.htm
http://www.fdii.ie/Sectors/FDII/FDII.nsf/vPages/Publications~fdii-competitiveness-indicators-report-2010/

All this after the sector being neglected for decades as governments preferred to chase after multinationals who re-patriate their profits in contrast to the profits of the smaller indigenous agri-food firms who tend to re-invest profits in the local economy in Ireland.

The potential to increase employment in this sector above a quarter of a million is definitely there. A 50% increase in the national dairy herd alone (as planed in the Harvest 2020 report) would likely push the total towards this figure. In addition, incentives to retain a greater proportion of the raw materials in Ireland for processing into more value added products would significantly increase the value of exports and increase employment further.

Tourism and Agriculture are our strongest sectors in terms of employment and in terms of income generation from our greatest natural resources of green, fertile and beautiful landscapes. They are also hugely beneficial in terms of the balance of trade in the amount of foreign cash they bring in to Ireland. The agri-food sector alone accounts for 30% of foreign net earnings.

Agriculture and tourism are the two industry sectors upon which any economic recovery must be based. This has yet to be explicitly recognized by the new government, which is worrying.

I would love to hear your answer as to what other industry can provide such well geographically distributed employment and foreign earnings in Ireland?...

delonglad

Although crazy I wish instead of blowing taxpayers money down the tube, trying to promote the smart economy they should invest more in it (and outside IT). They should look at alternatives. Look at Intel for instance. They have a big fab in Ireland and they are producing chips for the world stage. Irish people making the chips that are used in homes around the world, who would have thought we would be capable of getting out from behind an office desk and start working hard. Too many pen pushers in the country who don't like having to break a nail or get up before 9.

Why not try attract another large multinational like Samsung, TSMC, Micron, Toshiba etc to build a fab. It would cost 1 billion to build a state of the art fab and then another few billion to get it up and running with machines. This would in turn pay for itself through profits as these companies make back the cost of a 40+ million machine in 3 months. If the government were to offer big tax incentives for the first few years and then the norm after that the companies I think would be attracted to Ireland. We have little or no threat from earthquakes/tsunamis etc which is effecting fabs in Asia at the moment. Earthquakes don't so much break a machine as much as cause down time which costs thousands a second per machine.

We have the education in the high level courses at colleges to fill these companies (contrary to most belief) with the best and brightest instead of shipping them across the waters. We could easily show our worth and hope they keep investing. Proof of our quality of graduates is the outsourcing of jobs from the company I work for to Irish graduates. I'm part of a 130+ strong group of young Irish engineers working in the company and its growing by the week.

Very few of my friends and myself included are left in Ireland because there just wasn't the jobs for us. People can say what they want about graduates thinking they are entitled to a job in their field but who in their right mind would go to college to become an engineer only to end up sitting on the dole/taking a job as a waitor in fear some self centered asshole is going to call you a traitor for leaving with your degree (that you earned) in hand.

Ireland needs to become Ireland again not the ****hole its turning into where everybody hates everybody, druggies and louts rule the streets and people like us do nothing only discuss what we can do. We need to take action. I think i'm already taking action by gaining experience so I can return and give back to my society through the experience I gain.

Kinda went into a rant there oops!

Sincerely,
A pissed off emigrant

amacachi

Neddyusa wrote: »

The agri-food and drink sector in Ireland currently employs over 200,000 people.
84,000 directly on farms, fishing and forestry;
46,000 directly in food and drinks processing;
60,000 indirectly in food and drinks distribution, exporting and direct service provision to food companies;
20,000 in service provision to farmers; seed and fertilisers, machinery and plant, other farm inputs, farm consultancy, farm accountants, etc, etc.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/empandunempilo.htm
http://www.fdii.ie/Sectors/FDII/FDII.nsf/vPages/Publications~fdii-competitiveness-indicators-report-2010/

All this after the sector being neglected for decades as governments preferred to chase after multinationals who re-patriate their profits in contrast to the profits of the smaller indigenous agri-food firms who tend to re-invest profits in the local economy in Ireland.

The potential to increase employment in this sector above a quarter of a million is definitely there. A 50% increase in the national dairy herd alone (as planed in the Harvest 2020 report) would likely push the total towards this figure. In addition, incentives to retain a greater proportion of the raw materials in Ireland for processing into more value added products would significantly increase the value of exports and increase employment further.

Tourism and Agriculture are our strongest sectors in terms of employment and in terms of income generation from our greatest natural resources of green, fertile and beautiful landscapes. They are also hugely beneficial in terms of the balance of trade in the amount of foreign cash they bring in to Ireland. The agri-food sector alone accounts for 30% of foreign net earnings.

Agriculture and tourism are the two industry sectors upon which any economic recovery must be based. This has yet to be explicitly recognized by the new government, which is worrying.

I would love to hear your answer as to what other industry can provide such well geographically distributed employment and foreign earnings in Ireland?...

How would how European friends feel about an extra 50% coming in here in subsidies?

Neddyusa

amacachi wrote: »

How would how European friends feel about an extra 50% coming in here in subsidies?

Please do explain this "extra 50% coming in here in subsidies"???!! :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

EggsAckley wrote: »

What's wrong with low-skilled jobs anyway?

nothing at all except the crazy pay rates demanded here to do them making it entirely unfeasible to locate such jobs here

amacachi

Neddyusa wrote: »

Please do explain this "extra 50% coming in here in subsidies"???!! :rolleyes:

Would increasing the herd not mean an increase in subsidies? Also I would have thought that increasing supply by 50% could have an effect on the price.

Tipp Man

amacachi wrote: »

How would how European friends feel about an extra 50% coming in here in subsidies?

On the contrary, Europe is holding back irish milk production through the milk quota.

No direct subsidy by Europe is paid to milk producers. Irish milk producers are selling milk for only a couple of cent more than New Zealand (the main players in the world market). The gap between Irish and world milk prices has narrowed dramatically in the last 10 years. We are probably the cheapest producers of milk in the EU

Ireland would have no problem increasing its milk production by 50% and the aim of a 100% increase (Harvest 2020) is achievable given the correct encouragement

As mentioned above a focus on adding value to our agri products (instead of exporting raw material) has massive potential which needs to be utilised.

A very important consideration as well of agriculture is that it is not location specific and distributes it wealth across the entire country with particular emphasis on the rural economy

Tipp Man

amacachi wrote: »

Would increasing the herd not mean an increase in subsidies? Also I would have thought that increasing supply by 50% could have an effect on the price.

About 6 or 7 years ago the link between subsidies and the number of animals was broken (decoupling) and farmers are now paid on the average of what they had for the reference years (2001 2002 2003)

But this system did not apply to the dairy sector in Ireland, only the beef sector

Its also worth noting that the CAP is to be completly reformed by 2013 so what is likely to happen is that Ireland will receive closer to half of what it is currently receiving and not double - definately NOT double

Regarding price - Irish milk is competing on the world stage. I think its 80 or 85% of our milk is exported. The Irish market has very little relevance to Irish milk producers. On the world milk stage we are a very small player (1%) so even doubling our milk output will have practically no effect on price. It has to be remembered that the markets are also there for this milk expansion, China and India are dramatically increasing their consumption of milk and dairy products. It is vital that Ireland get a decent slice of it

Amhran Nua

Neddyusa wrote: »

The potential to increase employment in this sector above a quarter of a million is definitely there. A 50% increase in the national dairy herd alone (as planed in the Harvest 2020 report) would likely push the total towards this figure. In addition, incentives to retain a greater proportion of the raw materials in Ireland for processing into more value added products would significantly increase the value of exports and increase employment further.

These are good ideas, and should be pursued. To clarify, I was asking how can agriculture reduce the unemployment figures by an appreciable amount. I guess the 10-15% reduction you're talking about here is fairly appreciable, but it's not the answer to Ireland's problems.

Neddyusa wrote: »

I would love to hear your answer as to what other industry can provide such well geographically distributed employment and foreign earnings in Ireland?...

Any industry really, if it were pursued sufficiently. I have another thread in this forum about ways to promote local industry and enterprise in Ireland, so maybe have a look there for a more comprehensive answer.

Tipp Man

Amhran Nua wrote: »

These are good ideas, and should be pursued. To clarify, I was asking how can agriculture reduce the unemployment figures by an appreciable amount. I guess the 10-15% reduction you're talking about here is fairly appreciable, but it's not the answer to Ireland's problems.

There is no single 1 answer to Ireland problems though. We need a huge array of options and actions to help get us out of this mess and promoting agriculture and the food sector is one of them

I don't think anybody is foolish enough to say that if we milk more cows then Ireland is fixed (not saying you said that either) but it is an indigenous industry that we happen to be good at so if we can get more exports from it, create more jobs, and keep the profits in this country then there are very few other sectors of the economy that can have as big an overall positive effect

JustAddWater

jaysus,

anyone else noticed poor James Reilly asleep down the back

amacachi

Tipp Man wrote: »

On the contrary, Europe is holding back irish milk production through the milk quota.

No direct subsidy by Europe is paid to milk producers. Irish milk producers are selling milk for only a couple of cent more than New Zealand (the main players in the world market). The gap between Irish and world milk prices has narrowed dramatically in the last 10 years. We are probably the cheapest producers of milk in the EU

Ireland would have no problem increasing its milk production by 50% and the aim of a 100% increase (Harvest 2020) is achievable given the correct encouragement

As mentioned above a focus on adding value to our agri products (instead of exporting raw material) has massive potential which needs to be utilised.

A very important consideration as well of agriculture is that it is not location specific and distributes it wealth across the entire country with particular emphasis on the rural economy

I was under the impression that Ireland and France were more or less the only countries that were trying to prevent big changes to the CAP.
I'm not convinced we can compete all that well with cheaper economies, foreign milk being cheaper than Irish milk in Ireland makes it seem odd that we can export and sell so much.

Amhran Nua

Tipp Man wrote: »

There is no single 1 answer to Ireland problems though. We need a huge array of options and actions to help get us out of this mess and promoting agriculture and the food sector is one of them

Very true. The question is will the government recognise these options and act on them?

Tipp Man wrote: »

I don't think anybody is foolish enough to say that if we milk more cows then Ireland is fixed (not saying you said that either)

I was responding hinault's "neither smart nor economic" comely maidens type nonsense.

Tipp Man

amacachi wrote: »

I was under the impression that Ireland and France were more or less the only countries that were trying to prevent big changes to the CAP.
I'm not convinced we can compete all that well with cheaper economies, foreign milk being cheaper than Irish milk in Ireland makes it seem odd that we can export and sell so much.

Of course Ireland is trying to prevent big changes to CAP. As I already said Ireland will loose maybe half of what it currently gets. Certainly a quarter will be lost

Why on earth wouldn't they fight tooth and nail to keep it??

As I said the Irish market accounts for less than a quarter of Irish milk production. We are exporting the remainder. We are the second largest exporter in the world of baby formula for instance. We export many thousands of tonnes of cheese and butter annualy. Looking at beef we export between 85 and 90% of what we produce in this country

If you want a reason why your paying more for Irish milk than Northern Irish milk then you should speak to your local Tesco store manager about their pricing policy.

Of course a higher price for an Irish product in Ireland isn't unusual. I have seen Jameson sold abroad on many occasions and often much cheaper than in Ireland

swordofislam

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Really? My brother just emigrated to Australia and took his shiny new IT degree with him.

Australia is a big hole in the ground that they dig dirt out of and ship to China. Everything else is dependent on that big hole in the ground. The sweeet part is that they don't even pay the real owners of the country anything for the use of the dirt because they killed most of them SWEEEET!

bob the bob

Spacedog wrote: »

what bugs me is that the Irish practically built the London underground, half of NYC, and countless infrastructural projects around the world. but when it comes to building our own infrastructure, our government can't wait to tender a bunch of multinational countries to charge us hundreds of millions to cement a tram line into the ground. the same as the ones there 100 years ago.

there is no reason that, given the materials and resources, that irish students, and engineers can't develop open source style infrestructure projects, build our own engines, for our own trams, build our own underground system in every city, and tram system in every town, build factories and start making stuff again.

trouble is we'll all been dicking about in offices doing meaningless horseshit for too long and forgot what it's like to pick up a shovel.

I'm pretty sure that the Irish mostly contributed low skilled, manual labour to these projects, the majority of them would not have been involved in the design, project management or strategy of these massive projects.

michael999999

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is because our greaseball contractors charge 30% more than the furriners do for the same job , mainly so that they can then brown envelope the local council and FF politicians.

Better built by Mc......!

thebman

bob the bob wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the Irish mostly contributed low skilled, manual labour to these projects, the majority of them would not have been involved in the design, project management or strategy of these massive projects.

Not just low skilled labour. My brother is friends with one of the engineers on the project who moved back to Ireland just before the bubble collapsed and is now unemployed ... ...

We have good, skilled workers. Ireland does seem to lack the ambition from the business perspective to take on risky projects unless people know someone in government that can give a hand in certain areas ... ...

srsly78

As the owner of a successful Irish software company I find the suggestion that I abandon this and return to "agriculture and hard graft" hilarious. Do people actually think that software is not a "proper job" and does not create real wealth? My sales count as exports.

RichardAnd

srsly78 wrote: »

As the owner of a successful Irish software company I find the suggestion that I abandon this and return to "agriculture and hard graft" hilarious. Do people actually think that software is not a "proper job" and does not create real wealth? My sales count as exports.

As an employee of a successful, Irish software company (perhaps your one, we'll never know ) I agree with you. However, I don't think the suggestion here is that guys like us down the C++ books and take up spades, rather it would be that this traditional way of earning a living is not simply pushed aside in favour of more modern jobs.

A small plot of land might not generate alot of money for the owner but if he's careful, he'll have food on the table and a roof over his head.

srsly78

The jobs market is all about supply and demand. There is still LOADS of demand for IT jobs in Ireland. Is there such demand for agricultural workers (hey I used to herd sheep when I was a teenager )? Aren't these jobs massively subsidised by EU common agricultural policy money? I certainly don't get any subsidy (aside from the 36month tax exemption).

edit: Yes graduates have it hard. But for skilled workers there are loads of IT jobs.

Amhran Nua

I'm particularly interested in these added value goods, I'm getting the sense of a gaping vacancy where there could be thriving un-outsourceable industries that you could reskill construction workers into. Are we talking what, leather goods, glue factories, that sort of thing? Irish foods have a good reputation abroad, no reason we couldn't build a similar quality brand for these adjacent businesses.

The Swiss don't sell watches because they make the cheapest!

yeahme

what bugs me is that the Irish practically built the London underground, half of NYC, most of chicago, Atlanta, Philly, Cleveland, New Orleans, San Francisco, and all of Boston and countless infrastructural projects around the world. but when it comes to building our own infrastructure, our government can't wait to tender a bunch of multinational countries to charge us hundreds of millions to cement a tram line into the ground. the same as the ones there 100 years ago.

there is no reason that, given the materials and resources, that irish students, and engineers can't develop open source style infrestructure projects, build our own engines, for our own trams, build our own underground system in every city, and tram system in every town, build factories and start making stuff again.

trouble is we'll all been dicking about in offices doing meaningless horse**** for too long and forgot what it's like to pick up a shovel.

FYP +1 excellent post and I fully agree.

srsly78

But shovels are heavy and stuff

Yahew

yeahme wrote: »

trouble is we'll all been dicking about in offices doing meaningless horse**** for too long and forgot what it's like to pick up a shovel.

FYP +1 excellent post and I fully agree.

nonsense. IT workers with skills have a fairly bright future. Recent graduates may not be the best, as we have dumbed down the courses recently in response to lower anticipated wages relative to other parts of the economy, but that is changing. I know people in Google, Amazon, in startups and contractors and no recession in their house. There is a growing app Market entrepreneurial culture too.

We definitely produced better engineers in the 80's and 90's. However if IT and engineering become more popular they can reverse the dumbing down.


As for people with spades, the supposed real work, well there is a recession in their houses. The people with spades are in trouble. Construction - over construction - is symptom of the recent boom. The smart economy is holding up, and was the reason for Ireland's boom.

There will be no private construction in Ireland for a decade, or two. There is no money for public construction. Agriculture and tourism are important, construction is not. Drop the spade and buy a MacBook.

srsly78

Good post apart from the macbook part :rolleyes:

Yahew

The MacBook or iBook?

srsly78

I don't want to drag thread off-topic, will pm you reasons.

Yahew

srsly78 wrote: »

I don't want to drag thread off-topic, will pm you reasons.

Obviously I was using the MacBook as a synonym for any portable or any computer.

dan_d

I'm not sure that everybody turning to IT is the answer either.....Lot's of people have said to me "sure you should do teaching, you'll definitely have a job out of that". The entire country can't be teachers, no more than they can be working in IT.

However we can't go about trying to find jobs for every construction worker either, as you say. There was an over supply, and we will (should) never reach those levels of construction again, so there's a definitely a need for a change of skills in those quarters. They need to be spread out over a few things though.