Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

HIV is a harmless virus and does not cause AIDS

Options
13

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    AIDs has often been cited as the new name given to several old diseases that were always there such as wasting syndrome and diarrheal diseases etc
    But when given a new name it suddenly became a new disease that popped up overnight in the late 70's, early 80's. Magic. It's amazing what a new name can do.


  • Options
    #63
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    AIDs has often been cited as the new name given to several old diseases that were always there such as wasting syndrome and diarrheal diseases etc
    But when given a new name it suddenly became a new disease that popped up overnight in the late 70's, early 80's. Magic. It's amazing what a new name can do.
    Which is a totally different argument to your original claim, 'HIV is a harmless virus'. And an argument that is potentially much more valid, I would agree.


  • Options
    #64
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »

    Do you not think it's a bit odd that AIDs seems to be confined to these groups? The exact groups whose activities have been proven to suppress the immune system.
    The activity of being African suppresses your immune system? The activity of being gay?

    You think this is more likely than certain groups being more promiscuous or more likely to come in contact with infected blood? :confused:


  • Options
    #65
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    The activity of being African suppresses your immune system? The activity of being gay?

    You think this is more likely than certain groups being more promiscuous or more likely to come in contact with infected blood? :confused:
    Poorer African countries have higher instances of malnutrition which can have an adverse affect on the immune system. Generally speaking, Africans are not promiscuous people, not as much as western cultures anyway so it doesn't add up that Africans have high instances of AIDs due to high sexual behavior. Malnutrition is a more likley causes.

    As for homosexuals, Deusbergs states that the act of anal sex gives an increased risk of semen entering the blood stream which is toxic to blood. Thus overtime it can lead to a compromised immune system and eventually AIDs. This would explain why AIDs was initially touted as the "gay mans cancer" ...and when diseases that already existed in africa for a long time where given a new name "AIDs", all of a sudden, a world wide epidemic was occurring.


  • Options
    #66
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    As for homosexuals, Deusbergs states that the act of anal sex gives an increased risk of semen entering the blood stream which is toxic to blood.
    Does Deusberg bother backing up this assertion? I don't know about you, but I associate gay men with good health - not exactly scientific admittedly. But you'd think there would be an absolute wealth of other data regarding other illnesses to back up this gay=suppressed immune system claim. Gay people would suffer from substantially more illnesses and suffer these illnesses to a greater extent if this claim is valid. Where is this evidence?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    RoboClam
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭RoboClam


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    semen entering the blood stream which is toxic to blood.

    Having studied biology for years this is new to me. Does he explain how semen could possibly be toxic? Or more specifically how it is able to destroy Th cells?


  • Options
    #68
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Gay people would suffer from substantially more illnesses and suffer these illnesses to a greater extent if this claim is valid. Where is this evidence?
    They do, it's in the statistics. Gay men are a risk group for getting AIDs.

    I don't want to ruffle up any gay peoples feathers here, but when aids was first touted at the "gay mans cancer", it's well documented that gay rights activists put pressure on the authorities at the time to not marginalize them that this disease was only assigned to them, and not long after old diseases were given a new combined name of AIDs so it wasn't just gay people getting AIDs anymore but now also people of both sexes and sexualities in Africa etc that were getting AIDs.

    Though the gender ratio of people with AIDs in Africa was 50-50 (which is logical as malnutrition doesn't discriminate on gender grounds) but the ratio of men to women getting AIDs in the western world was like 90-10. A little bot odd that AIDs in the western world was discriminating between the genders but in Africa is wasn't discriminating.


  • Options
    #69
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    They do, it's in the statistics. Gay men are a risk group for getting AIDs.
    Let me get this straight:

    1. The proof that AIDS is not caused by HIV is that gay men are much more likely to get AIDS.

    2. Gay men get AIDS because their immune system is suppressed.

    3. The proof that gay men's immune system is suppressed is that they get AIDS.

    I don't know where to start with this. Circular much?


  • Options
    #70
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Gay men get AIDS because their immune system is suppressed.
    No i'm saying they are at a higher risk of damaging their immune system. I'm not saying that all gay men have damaged immune systems. That of course would be nonsense.
    I'm saying that gay men are at a higher risk of damaging their immune systems if semen enters their blood, or if they take drugs, and this correlates to the statistics which show that gay men are significantly more likely to get AIDs then people that aren't gay.

    This is logical. It's their lifestyle that puts them at risk of getting AIDs, not HIV. Deusberg makes the point that if HIV did cause AIDs, then the AIDs disease would be spread out evenly amongst the population of the world. Of course it's not, it;s largely confined to specific groups of people with certain lifestyles.


  • Options
    #71
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    No i'm saying they are at a higher risk of damaging their immune system. I'm not saying that all gay men have damaged immune systems. That of course would be nonsense.
    I'm saying that gay men are at a higher risk of damaging their immune systems if semen enters their blood, or if they take drugs, and this correlates to the statistics which show that gay men are significantly more likely to get AIDs then people that aren't gay.
    But we have zero evidence of this semen claim, and all sections of the population take drugs, so you can eliminate that from any equation that biases gay men towards HIV/AIDS.
    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    This is logical. It's their lifestyle that puts them at risk of getting AIDs, not HIV. Deusberg makes the point that if HIV did cause AIDs, then the AIDs disease would be spread out evenly amongst the population of the world. Of course it's not, it;s largely confined to specific groups of people with certain lifestyles.
    Unless of course exposure to HIV-infected blood, or of blood to a HIV-infected bodily fluid is a major vector for transmission, in which case intravenous drug users and gay men would be more susceptible to the disease. The more I read about this Deusberg character, the stupider he sounds.

    Where is the data? How does he back up his claims? Re. the drug-user one - presumably those who use drugs but don't use intravenous drugs are also suppressing their immune system. Therefore, there is a simple test where you can compare the HIV/AIDS rate of intravenous drug users versus all users and see if the rate of infection is the same. Has he done this simple comparison to prove his case?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    RoboClam
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭RoboClam


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I'm saying that gay men are at a higher risk of damaging their immune systems if semen enters their blood

    I'd like to know how semen alone does this.


  • Options
    #73
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    RoboClam wrote: »
    I'd like to know how semen alone does this.
    I can't find the documentary on this which was on youtube. It's buried in the middle of another documentary as i remember so it's difficult to find again. It is there though.


  • Options
    #74
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    RoboClam wrote: »
    I'd like to know how semen alone does this.

    Probably because it's salty and salt increases blood pressure.


  • Options
    #75
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I can't find the documentary on this which was on youtube. It's buried in the middle of another documentary as i remember so it's difficult to find again. It is there though.
    You realise that there a lot of Christian fundies spreading disinformation on this subject?


  • Options
    #76
    clever_name
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭clever_name


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Poorer African countries have higher instances of malnutrition which can have an adverse affect on the immune system. Generally speaking, Africans are not promiscuous people, not as much as western cultures anyway so it doesn't add up that Africans have high instances of AIDs due to high sexual behavior. Malnutrition is a more likley causes.


    Maybe Africans have higher instances of AIDs due to a lack of sexual education? or because condoms are uncommon there?
    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    As for homosexuals, Deusbergs states that the act of anal sex gives an increased risk of semen entering the blood stream which is toxic to blood. Thus overtime it can lead to a compromised immune system and eventually AIDs.

    If semen entering the blood stream causes AIDs surely every man, gay or straight, would have AIDs? After all most men are walking around with two things between thier legs that have a very rich blood supply, these two things produce a substance that is toxic to blood?

    Does this honestly make any sense to you?


  • Options
    #77
    RoboClam
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭RoboClam


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I can't find the documentary on this which was on youtube. It's buried in the middle of another documentary as i remember so it's difficult to find again. It is there though.

    Take my word for it, semen does not and could not compromise the immune system. All I can think of is that sperm could lead to a hypersensitivity response, but this is the opposite of immune suppression.


  • Options
    #78
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    You realise that there a lot of Christian fundies spreading disinformation on this subject?
    This was a documentary with medical professionals giving their opinion, not just any old person.
    I'm not one of these "christian fundies". I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what could be a very unsafe connection being made by the general public between HIV and AIDs.

    We're in a major recession right now. You know why? 95% of the "experts" out there said we weren't in a buble and we were going to have a soft landing. I heard it so many times i assumed they knew what they were talking about and everything would be grand. You know what? - They were all wrong. Seems obvious now in hindsight, but for the last 5 years in the run up to the crash, everyone thought everything was just dandy.


  • Options
    #79
    clever_name
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭clever_name


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    This is logical. It's their lifestyle that puts them at risk of getting AIDs, not HIV. Deusberg makes the point that if HIV did cause AIDs, then the AIDs disease would be spread out evenly amongst the population of the world. Of course it's not, it;s largely confined to specific groups of people with certain lifestyles.

    Where is the logic in this? its like saying the sun shines all around the world so skin cancer should be spread evenly too.
    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Of course it's not, it;s largely confined to specific groups of people with certain lifestyles.

    Do you mean gays & drug users?, funny thats what was used about thirty years ago as an excuse to not research AIDs. It was not true then either

    Let Brass Eye tell you more
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFNs2mOkKzc


  • Options
    #80
    RoboClam
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭RoboClam


    I would really love to see that video about sperm causing AIDS, because the whole notion really bewilders me. As clever_name was saying, it would make no biological sense for the substance responsible for human reproduction to be toxic. Sure, the vaginal wall is prone to epithelial disruption during sex anyway, meaning that sex becomes a life or death scenario for women.

    Really, I can't wrap my head around that claim. Please 2wsxcde3, examine the sperm = AIDS "hypothesis" as thoroughly as you examine HIV = AIDS. You are within your right to be suspicious about the HIV = AIDS link (I don't agree but it's OK to ask questions of course). But you're really just absolutely, totally flat out wrong about how the immune system deals with sperm.


  • Options
    #81
    clever_name
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭clever_name


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what could be a very unsafe connection being made by the general public between HIV and AIDs.

    The general public have not unsafely connected HIV & AIDs, medical research conducted in many different areas has safely connected HIV & AIDs.

    Also could you clear something up for me, how does someone contract a disease HIV?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    This was a documentary with medical professionals giving their opinion, not just any old person.
    Plenty of medical professionals are religious hardliners.
    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I'm not one of these "christian fundies".
    I don't doubt you.
    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what could be a very unsafe connection being made by the general public between HIV and AIDs.
    Where is the evidence that it is unsafe?
    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    We're in a major recession right now. You know why? 95% of the "experts" out there said we weren't in a buble and we were going to have a soft landing. I heard it so many times i assumed they knew what they were talking about and everything would be grand. You know what? - They were all wrong. Seems obvious now in hindsight, but for the last 5 years in the run up to the crash, everyone thought everything was just dandy.
    Economics is not a hard science - it's a social science. I know the limitations of economics, and the history of the property bubble in Ireland - it's been my main hobby since around 2002. I was one of the people telling everybody things were far from dandy.

    Fortunately, medicine is on much firmer scientific ground.


  • Options
    #83
    uprising2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭uprising2


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Economics is not a hard science - it's a social science. I know the limitations of economics, and the history of the property bubble in Ireland - it's been my main hobby since around 2002. I was one of the people telling everybody things were far from dandy.

    Fortunately, medicine is on much firmer scientific ground.

    Would you bet your house on it?;)


  • Options
    #84
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    uprising2 wrote: »
    Would you bet your house on it?;)
    If I had a house...:D

    I study economics: I hope to Christ the medical people do have a better understanding of their domain, otherwise we are all screwed... :)


  • Options
    #85
    uprising2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭uprising2


    To be honest I believe AIDS is manmade, it's a killer, although I won't dismiss everything the OP says, I haven't watched the video's so when I do I'll know a bit more about what your talking about.

    I wouldn't go injecting myself with HIV to make a point, not that anybody said they would.

    JUST DON'T!


  • Options
    #86
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Ironic that 97% of the people posting about AIDS in this thread are totally and utterly unable to ever have any chance of catching it.

    Get out from your parents attic and meet people you sad ignorant people.


  • Options
    #87
    tony 2 tone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭tony 2 tone


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Though the gender ratio of people with AIDs in Africa was 50-50 (which is logical as malnutrition doesn't discriminate on gender grounds)
    Any source or reference for that. I remember reading that it was higher in young women(20-24) then men of same age.


  • Options
    #88
    uprising2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭uprising2


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    If I had a house...:D

    I study economics: I hope to Christ the medical people do have a better understanding of their domain, otherwise we are all screwed... :)

    I know a fella that has lost millions on property, he was worth about 5-6 million cash and whatever other assets he had, he didn't listen to you or people talking like you and put his assets and cash into becoming closer to a billionaire, now he has nothing but HUGE debts.

    I bought my house in the late nineties and sold it for four times the amount, when the peak was on its way down, I didn't gain much from it to be honest, ex, kids etc got the spoils, but maybe I'll send you a PM when it hits the floor and you can advise me, although where I'll actually get a mortgage is a mystery at the moment, hopefully when I need it you will put me on to a bogey accountant who will invent a p60 and paperwork to go along with it.


  • Options
    #89
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    so gay men are more at risk of aids because they engage in anal sex....

    there are a lot of women who go brown as well as pink.... so how come women arent at greater risk????


  • Options
    #90
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    david75 wrote: »
    Ironic that 97% of the people posting about AIDS in this thread are totally and utterly unable to ever have any chance of catching it.
    What?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    RoboClam
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭RoboClam


    robtri wrote: »
    so gay men are more at risk of aids because they engage in anal sex....

    there are a lot of women who go brown as well as pink.... so how come women arent at greater risk????
    According to the latest (2008) WHO and UNAIDS global estimates, women comprise 50% of people living with HIV.

    In sub-Saharan Africa, women constitute 60% of people living with HIV. In other regions, men having sex with men (MSM), injecting drug users (IDU), sex workers and their clients are among those most-at-risk for HIV, but the proportion of women living with HIV has been increasing in the last 10 years.
    Source: http://www.who.int/gender/hiv_aids/en/
    All studies show that unprotected (UP) anal intercourse (AI) is
    more risky than vaginal sex (VI) and that receptive sex is riskier than
    active sex (Gray et al., 2001; Macdonald et al., 2008; De Gruttola et
    al., 1989; Grant et al., 1987).
    Several biological mechanisms could explain the higher rates
    of male to female versus female to male transmission. Among
    them are the larger anatomical surface area and higher numbers
    of vulnerable cell types present in the vagina compared to the
    penis, greater degree of epithelial disruption, hormonal influence,
    and higher rates of symptomatic STIs in women. Recent observations suggest that components of semen, specifically amyloid fibril
    derived peptides can substantially enhance HIV infectivity (Münch
    et al., 2007) which may also help explain the increased risk of HIV
    acquisition through receptive penetrative sex. Compared to the
    mucosa of the mature vagina or cervix, rectal mucosa is more susceptible to traumatic abrasions (Levy, 1993) and lacks the protective humoral immune barrier present in cervicovaginal secretions
    (Belec et al., 1995). However, it is not clear that women are in fact at
    higher risk than men of acquiring HIV-1-1 from an infected partner
    in a discordant relationship. This will be one of the critical findings
    of the HPTN 052 study currently underway (HPTN 052).
    Source: Here


Advertisement