Trolling in the Soccer Forum and other problems.

bamboozling

Currently there is a problem with trolling in the soccer forum. There are many skilled trolls who specialize in causing as much consternation and trouble as possible yet are clever enough to do so within the confines of the forum charter in order to avoid punishment.

Last night on a specific thread, since deleted called the Premier Soccer Saturday thread, there were frankly disgraceful comments from a poster who decided that Liverpool fans probably had caused the Hillsborough disaster and the Sun were probably right since they couldn't technically be proven wrong, despite all the evidence to the contrary. This upset many users and rightly so as it was disgraceful what was being said.

Then, there was a conversation on the Liverpool super thread as to how wrong some of the comments on the Premier Soccer Saturday thread.

Yet as I log in today I see that the Premier Soccer Saturday has been deleted, wiped off the face of the forum, and the comments in the Liverpool thread deleted en masse. And to put the cherry on top of the proverbial cake, it is the users who expressed their anger at what happened last night that get met with a warning and told of the possibility of a banning. Yet the users who deliberately troll and incite are protected by the charter and nothing done about them.

This really isn't the first time either as last Easter weekend for almost 3 whole days we witnessed Manchester United fans come in and troll the weekend away in the Liverpool thread, yet, these people are clever people and are protected from sanction while those who rise to the bait are punished.

This to me is wrong and something needs to be done about this and rather quickly.

amy21

Do people iago being a utd season ticket holder that you can be impartial enough to mod this thread fairly, i dont think he can.

Grayditch

It amazes me that someone can post things that will upset a lot of people, yet when another person questions the modding, things get serious!

Insect Overlord

I can't see the two opening posts in this thread. The two posters in question are on my ignore list because of how they post in the Soccer Forum. Are they signing confessions or looking for sympathy?

KittyeeTrix

bamboozling wrote: »

Currently there is a problem with trolling in the soccer forum. There are many skilled trolls who specialize in causing as much consternation and trouble as possible yet are clever enough to do so within the confines of the forum charter in order to avoid punishment.

Last night on a specific thread, since deleted called the Premier Soccer Saturday thread, there were frankly disgraceful comments from a poster who decided that Liverpool fans probably had caused the Hillsborough disaster and the Sun were probably right since they couldn't technically be proven wrong, despite all the evidence to the contrary. This upset many users and rightly so as it was disgraceful what was being said.

Then, there was a conversation on the Liverpool super thread as to how wrong some of the comments on the Premier Soccer Saturday thread.

Yet as I log in today I see that the Premier Soccer Saturday has been deleted, wiped off the face of the forum, and the comments in the Liverpool thread deleted en masse. And to put the cherry on top of the proverbial cake, it is the users who expressed their anger at what happened last night that get met with a warning and told of the possibility of a banning. Yet the users who deliberately troll and incite are protected by the charter and nothing done about them.

This really isn't the first time either as last Easter weekend for almost 3 whole days we witnessed Manchester United fans come in and troll the weekend away in the Liverpool thread, yet, these people are clever people and are protected from sanction while those who rise to the bait are punished.

This to me is wrong and something needs to be done about this and rather quickly.

amy21 wrote: »

Do people iago being a utd season ticket holder that you can be impartial enough to mod this thread fairly, i dont think he can.

There ya go Insectoverlord, you decide..............

Personally I think they are discussing a topic which definitely needs addressing and that is the ongoing trolling which exists in the SF. Can be very difficult to ignore it at times. Usually I just ignore it but it's very annoying to have to do this on a daily basis...

K-9

Insect Overlord wrote: »

I can't see the two opening posts in this thread. The two posters in question are on my ignore list because of how they post in the Soccer Forum. Are they signing confessions or looking for sympathy?

Well rather than turning this into personal mudslinging, the general point is that there are a few what I'd call, "subtle trolls" in the Soccer forum at the minute.I I'd say a fair few users of the forum, of different clubs, can acknowledge the issue.

I'd hope that can be acknowledged without making it an us vs. them battle.

amy21

I have already got a few PMs of support but people are afraid to say anything in case they get banned

K-9

Also, I don't understand why the thread was deleted. I don't think there was anything libellous in the thread or anything like that. It got a bit personal as an emotive subject was discussed, but I've seen worse and threads weren't deleted.

The Muppet

bamboozling wrote: »

Last night on a specific thread, since deleted called the Premier Soccer Saturday thread, there were frankly disgraceful comments from a poster who decided that Liverpool fans probably had caused the Hillsborough disaster and the Sun were probably right since they couldn't technically be proven wrong, despite all the evidence to the contrary. This upset many users and rightly so as it was disgraceful what was being said.

That is not what I said at all, have the decency to stick to what I actually said in support of your witch hunt.

The mods still have access to the thread I'm sure they can confirm this.

Mr Alan

amy21 wrote: »

Do people iago being a utd season ticket holder that you can be impartial enough to mod this thread fairly, i dont think he can.

Yea, I think he can, he is an excellent mod.

I've never seen him putting a foot wrong in the SF in general, or more specifically, in modding Liverpool related issues.

I say all that despite being in the middle of a six month ban in part handed to me by Iago.

I know you're new-ish to the place & you may not be aware of me, but I'm kind of a big deal, so pipe down & don't derail a valid discussion about the style of posting of some in the SF.

101001

K-9 wrote: »

Well rather than turning this into personal mudslinging, the general point is that there are a few what I'd call, "subtle trolls" in the Soccer forum at the minute.I I'd say a fair few users of the forum, of different clubs, can acknowledge the issue.

I'd hope that can be acknowledged without making it an us vs. them battle.

Yeah. it'd be interesting to see what the club split on this is like. If there are a range of different supporters noting the same thing.

Personally I find it hard to make an objective decision. Are the posters on the wind or do they have a limited set of social skills (thats not meant as any form of abuse or slag, some folks just dont 'get' a mood or subtext etc.)

I cant say for certain if its disingenuousness or a lack of decorum.

Dave!

I can verify that Mr Alan is, indeed, a big deal.

That_Guy

amy21 wrote: »

Do people iago being a utd season ticket holder that you can be impartial enough to mod this thread fairly, i dont think he can.

Pretty pathetic snipe tbh. Iago is a pretty good mod. Haven't seen any contentious decisions made by him before.

Top top bloke.

Jazzy

theres Alan!


basically the SF mods are ineffective against trolls that are apparantly clever enough. they have said as much too

Blokes pretending to be birds and all on the Soccer Forum these days. It's madness Joe. Proper trolling. Tbf, in all seriousness, the soccer forum is probably the most trolled forum on the website.

Anyone making a joke about Hillsborough should be sitebanned IMO, but it's the most laboured point at this stage, report a post rather than self moderate. At this stage you can't complain when abuse in retaliation gets posted. "Use the report post function" must be one of the most posted phrases in there at this stage.

As for the swipe at Iago, cheap. Very cheap. Who he supports has nothing to do with his moderating. Too much emphasis is placed on who mods support in general. It shouldn't be questioned.

101001

K-9 wrote: »

Also, I don't understand why the thread was deleted. I don't think there was anything libellous in the thread or anything like that. It got a bit personal as an emotive subject was discussed, but I've seen worse and threads weren't deleted.

More good points... why was the thread deleted? It was fairly off original topic. And there was a discussion within there that wouldve been interesting to have and that folks couldve learned from

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

I know you're new-ish to the place & you may not be aware of me, but I'm kind of a big deal,

You were nothing until I took you under my wing.

K-9

101001 wrote: »

Yeah. it'd be interesting to see what the club split on this is like. If there are a range of different supporters noting the same thing.

Personally I find it hard to make an objective decision. Are the posters on the wind or do they have a limited set of social skills (thats not meant as any form of abuse or slag, some folks just dont 'get' a mood or subtext etc.)

I cant say for certain if its disingenuousness or a lack of decorum.

Tbh I think the type of posters you are referring to there are usually spotted by the mods and do attract yellow cards and bans.

It's the subtle trolls that can post away without getting cards, or very little, that are the problem. I know of a couple of posters of a club different to mine that do see an issue with it, definitely.

Certain posters are regulars on the Liverpool thread, fans of rivals and are welcomed with no problems on the thread, so it isn't an us vs. them thing, definitely not.

ShiverinEskimo

It's true. He was nothing until Des took him under his wing.

Now he's banned.

KittyeeTrix

It seems I was ill informed.................

_blank_

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

May I point out that amy21 (be they female/male) is a newcomer to the SF and so would be unaware of who is a good guy, bad guy and generally who to avoid so it may be advisable or correct to cut him/her a little slack and not all pounce at once:)

@amy21, as far as I'm aware the issue of having moderators who are fans of particular clubs has been discussed at some lengths in the past and deemed to be acceptable.

Even though the username amy21 is new to the SF, I very much doubt if the human behind the name is all that new to the SF.;)

amy21

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

May I point out that amy21 (be they female/male) is a newcomer to the SF and so would be unaware of who is a good guy, bad guy and generally who to avoid so it may be advisable or correct to cut him/her a little slack and not all pounce at once:)

@amy21, as far as I'm aware the issue of having moderators who are fans of particular clubs has been discussed at some lengths in the past and deemed to be acceptable.

All i know is i got really pissed in what was said in that thread about premier soccer sunday, i got 2 infractions in 2 minutes

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

That is not what I said at all, have the decency to stick to what I actually said in support of your witch hunt.

The mods still have access to the thread I'm sure they can confirm this.

What you said was;

The Muppet wrote:

The desire for a complete vindication of all present is the real issue I think, What the sun did was dispicable because they tarred all the liverpool fans with the same brush but it is possible that a small number of scumbags in Liverpool shirts may have behaved as reported.
Apologies if that offends anyone, that's not my intention but it's such a delicate subject it's difficult to discuss.

What you were failing to recognise, intentionally imo, is that the Liverpool fans there got a full vindication of any wrong doing. The Taylor Inquiry/Report which examined all details of the tragedy after it occured actually praised Liverpool fans reactions to the tragedy when the officials did nothing, The S*n itself admitted that it made it up, the game was televised, all that footage is there & was scrolled through hours upon end no doubt by all the authorities examining the tragedy for years afterward, there was scores of journalists there present commentating on the tragedy as it unfolded, yet no mention of The Suns appalling/disgusting accusations, but yet people like you use it in your pathetic point scoring/trolling routine over 20 years later. It's disgusting to be perfectly frank.

What The Sun reported was that Liverpool fans attacked police, they robbed from victims as they were dying, that they molested female bodies.....you said that it is possible this happened. It was beyond offensive & even for your style of posting, it crossed a line. You should be ashamed to be honest.

KittyeeTrix

Des wrote: »

Even though the username amy21 is new to the SF, I very much doubt if the human behind the name is all that new to the SF.;)

Oooooh gossip!!!

Not fair to leave me guessing like that...........:mad::D

K-9

Des wrote: »

Even though the username amy21 is new to the SF, I very much doubt if the human behind the name is all that new to the SF.;)

Penny drops!

The annual feedback thread is back !

Seriously though, the SF is a well run, well moderated forum. I'd imagine it's one of the hardest forums to moderate and tbh I don't envy any of the mods.

Some of the comments in The Hillsborough thread (it was actually a Premier Soccer Saturday thread that veered off course in a bad way) were far too close to the bone though. There's people from Liverpool that post on the forum as we know, and some of the comments were offensive to say the least. I can understand why the thread was deleted tbh. Boards doesn't need that sort of coverage.

Apart from that thread, I think the SF is a quality forum. If people don't like a certain poster(s) or get wound up a bit easy just stick them on ignore.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

What you said was;



What you were failing to recognise, intentionally imo, is that the Liverpool fans there got a full vindication of any wrong doing. The Taylor Inquiry/Report which examined all details of the tragedy after it occured actually praised Liverpool fans reactions to the tragedy when the officials did nothing, The S*n itself admitted that it made it up, the game was televised, all that footage is there & was scrolled through hours upon end no doubt by all the authorities examining the tragedy for years afterward, there was scores of journalists there present commentating on the tragedy as it unfolded, yet no mention of The Suns appalling/disgusting accusations, but yet people like you use it in your pathetic point scoring/trolling routine over 20 years later. It's disgusting to be perfectly frank.

What The Sun reported was that Liverpool fans attacked police, they robbed from victims as they were dying, that they molested female bodies.....you said that it is possible this happened. It was beyond offensive & even for your style of posting, it crossed a line. You should be ashamed to be honest.

Thanks for the quote Al , would you post a quote of my first post in the thread if you have the one where I gave the reason for asking the question..

I did say it was possible citing the reason that I couldn't understand what motivation those that made the allegations, an MP and a chief superintendent of the investigating police force would have to make up such sick lies.

I did not say it was probable as has been alleged here.

I think keeping an open mind to is a reasonable opinion to hold, I'm certainly not ashamed of what I posted in that thread.

Frankly Al there's no point posting about the outcome of uk enquiry's to me. Stalker showed they are flawed.

Grayditch

I didn't see anyone making jokes about anything, just pushing peoples buttons and pretending they were trying to learn more about the incident. It was transparent and creepy. Giving the Sun newspaper the benefit of the doubt in an circumstances is insane, but that's people's prerogative, however in this instance people went in knowing they were winding people up. Terms like 'scouse looneys' and other imbeciles posting pictures saying Move On, etc. Bad form.

Despite their 'subtle ways', I feel there is no grey area here, people were getting upset. You don't see people going into a Madeline McCann thread and suggesting she ran away or going into a Jade Goody thread and suggesting she gave herself cancer because she smoked. There are just things that people should not say, despite what they consider to be logical discussion. People get upset and hurt.

Try saying nothing next time, you know who you are.

Iago

amy21 wrote: »

Do people iago being a utd season ticket holder that you can be impartial enough to mod this thread fairly, i dont think he can.

If I wasn't impartial you'd already be banned by now anialmylo2721.

In fact I'm so biased that I've had DRP threads about me accusing me of banning people because they support United and I'm a Liverpool fan.

Keep banging that drum though.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

I think keeping an open mind to is a reasonable opinion to hold, I'm certainly not ashamed of what I posted in that thread.

I know you're not.

You really should be though.

The Muppet

Grayditch wrote: »

I didn't see anyone making jokes about anything, just pushing peoples buttons and pretending they were trying to learn more about the incident. It was transparent and creepy. Giving the Sun newspaper the benefit of the doubt in an circumstances is insane, but that's people's prerogative, however in this instance people went in knowing they were winding people up. Terms like 'scouse looneys' and other imbeciles posting pictures saying Move On, etc. Bad form.

Despite their 'subtle ways', I feel there is no grey area here, people were getting upset. You don't see people going into a Madeline McCann thread and suggesting she ran away or going into a Jade Goody thread and suggesting she gave herself cancer because she smoked. There are just things that people should not say, despite what they consider to be logical discussion. People get upset and hurt.

Try saying nothing next time, you know who you are.

Perhaps a discussion forum is not the place to be hanging around for people who are going to get upset and offended by other people asking genuine questions in order to get a better understanding of events.

amy21

Iago wrote: »

If I wasn't impartial you'd already be banned by now anialmylo2721.

In fact I'm so biased that I've had DRP threads about me accusing me of banning people because they support United and I'm a Liverpool fan.

Keep banging that drum though.

Ban me for what

101001

The Muppet wrote: »

I did say it was possible citing the reason that I couldn't understand what motivation those that made the allegations, an MP and a chief superintendent of the investigating police force would have to make up such sick lies.

You did say that but that came later from what I recall. You definitely asked about the motivation last night which was after the post that Mr. Alan submitted.

An example of the man, which might lead to a motivation or type of character was given to you. did you discuss that?

Perhaps a discussion forum is not the place to be hanging around for people who are going to get upset and offended by other people asking genuine questions in order to get a better understanding of events.

People wouldnt get upset if folks asked in a genuine way with a small bit more tact. If you find yourself gong through life offending a lot of people maybe a little self reflection is needed

The Muppet

101001 wrote: »

You did say that but that came later from what I recall. You definitely asked about the motivation last night which was after the post that Mr. Alan submitted.

An example of the man, which might lead to a motivation or type of character was given to you. did you discuss that?

It came immediately after the sources for the media story were revealed.

101001 wrote: »

People wouldnt get upset if folks asked in a genuine way with a small bit more tact. If you find yourself gong through life offending a lot of people maybe a little self reflection is needed

I was tactful.

SlickRic

The Muppet, why make the statement at all?

you know your history. you know you rile fans up, whether you think it's merited or not, it's meaningless. you do, and that's the end of the story, and you know you do.

so why on earth would you, of all people, bring it up like that? knowing the reaction it would get anyway, then taking into account your own image, why would you do that?

can you not get the information another way? can you not google? you'd have found the answers you were looking for in an instant. it's obviously your prerogative to post whatever the fúck you want, and you can claim this may be the best place to ask that question because we're 'knowledgable fans of our club', etc etc.

but you're not stupid. you know the reaction any mention of the Sun being in any way right would insinuate. so even if you technically had a right to ask, why bother if you'll cause upset?

are you bored? do you enjoy tension? what is it?

(this is my own personal post by the way; it's not on behalf of all the mods or anything - they're well able to speak for themselves!)

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

The Muppet, why make the statement at all?

you know your history. you know you rile fans up, whether you think it's merited or not, it's meaningless. you do, and that's the end of the story, and you know you do.

so why on earth would you, of all people, bring it up like that? knowing the reaction it would get anyway, then taking into account your own image, why would you do that?

can you not get the information another way? can you not google? you'd have found the answers you were looking for in an instant. it's obviously your prerogative to post whatever the fúck you want, and you can claim this may be the best place to ask that question because we're 'knowledgable fans of our club', etc etc.

but you're not stupid. you know the reaction any mention of the Sun being in any way right would insinuate. so even if you technically had a right to ask, why bother if you'll cause upset?

are you bored? do you enjoy tension? what is it?

(this is my own personal post by the way; it's not on behalf of all the mods or anything - they're well able to speak for themselves!)

It shouldn't be about who made the statement, should it Slick? I made the statement because it is my opinion.

If I remember correctly iknowyoudidnt or whatever his username is made a similar comment did he not?

Jazzy

SlickRic wrote: »

so why on earth would you, of all people, bring it up like that?

sorry, i know you are a mod and all but really - why the f**k do you think he does.

sick of seeing this line by the mods of "oh we cant deal with the casual/little/small time trolls". frankly - its embarrassing. how are you all collectively able to do everything else so well other then this? have some members paid you off? i honestly just dont get it.

need a suggestion on how to deal with it, feedback as it were - ban certain users from posting in specific threads. stop the well known trolls from having their fun and you might notice that new users dont try trolling as much (because they see xxxx user with an old join date trolling they immediatly go "ah yeah its grand i think i might go for a troll too")

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote: »

It shouldn't be about who made the statement, should it Slick? I made the statement because it is my opinion.

If I remember correctly iknowyoudidnt or whatever his username is made a similar comment did he not?

Yeah he did, and got a ban from it. And rightly so.

The Muppet

rarnes1 wrote: »

Yeah he did, and got a ban from it. And rightly so.

He got a ban for what he said in that thread?

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

If I remember correctly iknowyoudidnt or whatever his username is made a similar comment did he not?

i didn't see it; i will have a look in due course.

but his situation makes no difference to yours.

It shouldn't be about who made the statement, should it Slick? I made the statement because it is my opinion.

that is extremely naive.

of course it matters.

you don't want it to matter because it suits you for it not to matter. but when it comes to the issue of 'trolling', a huge piece of criteria of how we are going to judge a post, or a series of posts, is by that poster's history.

that's surely a given.

again, you're either being very very naive with that statement, or you're trying to get us to change how we mod to suit yourself.

Jazzy

The Muppet wrote: »

He got a ban for what he said in that thread?

is this part of the "but they are so good at defending themselves/deflecting the issue/weasling out of it" that the mods & ex mods talk about ?

MitchKoobski

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

i didn't see it; i will have a look in due course.



that is extremely naive.

of course it matters.

you don't want it to matter because it suits you for it not to matter. but when it comes to the issue of 'trolling', a huge piece of criteria of how we are going to judge a post, or a series of posts, is by that poster's history.

that's surely a given.

again, you're either being very very naive with that statement, or you're trying to get us to change how we mod to suit yourself.

Or just making the point that the username should be irrelevant, which it should IMO.

The Muppet

The Muppet wrote: »

He got a ban for what he said in that thread?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056255647

It appears he got a ban for something he said but it's been recinded.

Think I've mixed him up with another poster.

The dispute resolution thread is top heavy with soccer bans today.

Anyway, sorry for going off topic OP.

SlickRic

Jazzy wrote: »

sick of seeing this line by the mods of "oh we cant deal with the casual/little/small time trolls".

when have we ever said this?

need a suggestion on how to deal with it, feedback as it were - ban certain users from posting in specific threads. stop the well known trolls from having their fun and you might notice that new users dont try trolling as much (because they see xxxx user with an old join date trolling they immediatly go "ah yeah its grand i think i might go for a troll too")

a lot of the time posters will post an alternative opinion, and people just go nuts calling it trolling.

this is not RAWK or RedCafe.

there is a happy medium between the 2 that is difficult to find, but we do our best. you can't ban everyone with an alternative opinion, and the amount of ridiculous reports we get from people who call a different opinion trolling is laughable.

Sean Bateman

Trolling will always be an issue on forums such as this.

But baseless allegations of trolling are just as much of a problem.

When certain people are faced with arguments that shock or anger them, they hurl accusations of trolling around like confetti. That probably hinders good debate more than pure trolling.

I would love to discuss Hillsborough with other football fans in greater detail. But I've always felt that the allegations reflected in The Sun were true, or at least had a grain of truth to them (i.e. Liverpool fans pickpocketed, urinated on and sexually assaulted the dead). And Liverpool fans will never engage in constructive debate about the issue.

The fact of the matter is that we all know that English football attracts some seriously dodgy characters. Is it utterly inconceivable that some Liverpool fans may have committed such atrocities?

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

Or just making the point that the username should be irrelevant, which it should IMO.

you think that, because it suits your posting style.

and that's your opinion...and i'm telling you, as a fact, that it's not irrelevant.

explain to me how we would ever infract and ban trollers if we didn't take any history into account at all? if every post was purely taken on it's own merits?

catib999

Last night on a specific thread, since deleted called the Premier Soccer Saturday thread, there were frankly disgraceful comments from a poster who decided that Liverpool fans probably had caused the Hillsborough disaster and the Sun were probably right since they couldn't technically be proven wrong, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

KittyeeTrix

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Trolling will always be an issue on forums such as this.

But baseless allegations of trolling are just as much of a problem.

When certain people are faced with arguments that shock or anger them, they hurl accusations of trolling around like confetti. That probably hinders good debate more than pure trolling.

I would love to discuss Hillsborough with other football fans in greater detail. But I've always felt that the allegations reflected in The Sun were true, or at least had a grain of truth to them (i.e. Liverpool fans pickpocketed, urinated on and sexually assaulted the dead). And Liverpool fans will never engage in constructive debate about the issue.

The fact of the matter is that we all know that English football attracts some seriously dodgy characters. Is it utterly inconceivable that some Liverpool fans may have committed such atrocities?

Oh Lordy, here we go!!!:eek:

Mr Alan

Slick, I agree with you about calling people who simply disagree with you a troll is not good for the forum & it does happen.

However, with The Muppet, that's not the case. He is a troll. You know it. I know it. The other mods know it. Every user on the forum knows it. It's virtually his sole contribution to the forum as well. It's pathetic & last night was a step too far for me.

Ps. People, please ignore Sean Batemans contribution above, no need to de-rail this thread with his bile.

It's very easy to actually troll and get away with it, if you have half a brain, let's face it. There's things to post in certain threads that will rile a few people up but won't be bad enough to earn a card.

There's a very fine line between trolling a thread and having a difference of opinin. Which is what Slick is getting at I think. It can be a very fine line at times though!

That's what makes it tough for the mods.