Airsoft and Room Breaching

Leftyflip

From what I just saw in the "Helmets" thread and something that occured today - I'd just like to give my thoughts on this.

This is airsoft a game of honour and fun, whilst we accept possible injury from falling or cutting ourselves on something, etc, I wasn't aware that it was acceptable to be kicking in doors, when you know someone is behind it. Push the door open, if you feel resistance work around it, don't use excessive force - it's not on, at all. Ross Mahons image in the thread mentioned above is a key example of why not to. The lad who was wearing the helmet was lucky, had he of not been wearing it, a broken nose or something could have easily happened. Now to the best of my knowledge, we don't go out to hurt people and that kind of behaviour can easily ruin someone's day.

Basically, if you need to enter a door and clear a room, use your hands, push. If you feel resistance, think of a way around it. If somebody is holding a door closed and you kick it, you can very, very easily break or fracture their fingers, face, other body parts. Would you like it or find it acceptable if it happened to you?

Remember lads, we're here to have fun and make friends, not hurt each other. Play safe and play fair.

Ger.

Puding

reason every event i;ve been to has an open door policy for the most part, it similar to just keep them open

Firekitten

Hes got a good point... 99% of sites that operate in the cqb environment have SPECIFIC No door kicking policies.
Your name is not John Woo... You are not Neo. Don't be a pillock just to look cool to your mates. This is a game where the enemy on the other side gets to get up and walk away.

Be fair to your enemy, because one day, it may be you, and I garuntee, a door kicked in your face, is not nice.

Inari

It is an interesting point. Breaching and entering in the real world is a matter of life and death; you need to be fast and efficient, because if you're not you will get dead fast.

Airsoft on the other hand is not life and death, but is rather just a game. Granted, a game that mimics and replicates many aspects of the real world...but the risk is not of those replicated. You are, for all intents and purposes, safe. Rules as a result are set in place to guard your safety, but also to allow more immersive game-play. It's not very realistic if you can barricade a door, and have the others not allowed to breach...therefore it is far easier, and much more realistic, to just not allow doors to be closed/barricaded.

Personally speaking, I think not allowing them to be closed goes too far, but definitely a no on the barricading. Sure, it's fun, but it doesn't add anything except risk to the game.

@Lefty: When I saw the title of the thread, I sincerely half expected talk of RS Masterkeys and cutting-torch rigs etc

TheDoc

Yeah no with you on that, there might be occasions where I'd use my foot but it would be opening the door at the same velocity if I used my hands, not bursting the door of its hinges.

Its ridiculously reckless to just noize **** in, without knowing whats behind, its the same line as the blind fire rule imo.

And I'm sure we all remember the incident with the lad who booted the pallete on me while I was behind it...

@ricka on the same point I was expecting to read about how most airsofters are ****ing brutal at room breaching and clearing :P

CaptainCook

Puding wrote: »

reason every event i;ve been to has an open door policy for the most part, it similar to just keep them open

by far the most sensible attitude, it puts an end to any half ars$d door breaching exercises where people will get hurt.

Blazer

TheDoc wrote: »

And I'm sure we all remember the incident with the lad who booted the pallete on me while I was behind it...

no..but do tell

Stonewolf

Having repaired a couple of doors at my local site I can say that unfortunately door kicking does happen and some people do properly hoof it.

The only advice I can offer really is if you're on the inside stay away from the door.

Inari

Stonewolf wrote: »

The only advice I can offer really is if you're on the inside stay away from the door.

That is actually seriously good advice. The onus is on you as a player that if you're in a room and the door is closed; stay out of the firing path. People shouldn't kick doors in...but there's lots of stuff people shouldn't do, so you're best bet is to stay as safe as you can.

TheDoc

Sc@recrow wrote: »

no..but do tell

He kicked a pallete that clobbered me crouching behind it( thank **** for the full face mask ) so I noised him in the face.....

MerryDespot

Inari wrote: »

That is actually seriously good advice. The onus is on you as a player that if you're in a room and the door is closed; stay out of the firing path. People shouldn't kick doors in...but there's lots of stuff people shouldn't do, so you're best bet is to stay as safe as you can.

Fair enough - but why should everyone else in the world change their approach to deal with a few knuckle dragging numpties who can't seem to install a bit of thought between the impulse in their brain to Go Total F*cking Hardcore and the muscles in their legs.

The gob****e who kicks the door in is the one who is the problem - not the lad in the room. Good advice Inari - but I'm getting sick of lads going turbo on sites and then looking surprised when they're called on it - as if it never occurred to them that they were in the wrong. I think the fact that so many of us expect this type of ****e and take steps to avoid it leads to less injuries - but fault still lies with those who do this sort of rubbish in the first place.

Sperminator

i normally ask people not to kick in doors or even to close and stand behind them, but theres always someone how thinks different. i will have a private chat with you this weekend lefty!!!

Puding

tbh i have never understood why people kick door in, it seems such a stupid way to enter a room as you can not kick the door and have an aeg ready, your off balance and momentum is in the wrong direction, and a lot of the time just bounces back, people spend to much time watching cops shows me thinks

MagicIRL

Its common sense.

Saying that, If you attempt to hold a door closed with your person, expect to have the door opened with force.

Stonewolf

MerryDespot wrote: »

Fair enough - but why should everyone else in the world change their approach to deal with a few knuckle dragging numpties who can't seem to install a bit of thought between the impulse in their brain to Go Total F*cking Hardcore and the muscles in their legs.

The gob****e who kicks the door in is the one who is the problem - not the lad in the room. Good advice Inari - but I'm getting sick of lads going turbo on sites and then looking surprised when they're called on it - as if it never occurred to them that they were in the wrong. I think the fact that so many of us expect this type of ****e and take steps to avoid it leads to less injuries - but fault still lies with those who do this sort of rubbish in the first place.

Myself and a couple of other lads have been out at our local site doing a bit of improvement work there and not only were some of the doors busted to hell but there seems to be an attitude that everything there is put there for them to personally destroy.

One of the things we built was a pub which had some whiskey bottles glued to a shelf behind the bar not in any advance or firing lines, they were smashed in a manner suggesting the butt of an AEG and one of the shelves was partially pulled off the wall. For a nighttime post apocalypse game we put some candle reflectors made out of CDs in a room, shot to ****. One room had a three piece suite in it, we found one of the chairs flipped upside down in a stagnant puddle, a position in which it provided LESS cover.

That's the attitude you're faced with, it's why we can't have anything nice.

Firekitten

I wasn't going to, but people are right, the fault is the few that don't understand 'community' and 'fair play'.
Recently there was a topic by the owner of the office block... discussing new rules, including 'no door kicking'.
Naming no names, some site members were aghast they could nolonger do this... and quite vocal that they should be allowed to boot doors in eachothers faces for 'the craic'.

That, isn't, Airsoft.

Sod'o swords

Having had one door to the face and one to the back, i can certainty agree. But at that stage it was mostly new players doing it, they more than likely wouldn't be back so just didn't give a shít.

No idea what it's like now, but regardless doors and physics haven't changed much lately so it's still very dangerous.

Airsoft Reloded

Like FK said we recently changed the rules about kicking doors and faced a half a revolution, though we always said that if there was someone behind the door you were not allowed to kick it into them.

That being said we always put more emphasis on the fact that standing behind a door that opens in your direction (no matter where you are in life) is just plain stupid. You were allowed to kick doors on the common sense thing that you couldn't take the piss.

If you stand behind a door that opens in your direction then eventually you will get a face full of door. Truth be told the majority of airsofters aren't on boards and don't agree with the consensus of the rules here.

For instance none of our regulars agreed with any of it and there was actually one or two who won't return untill we change the rules back, a lot of our lads believed that if you hurt yourself you must have done something stupid, I would agree if not for the legal issues

P.S

It should be noted that the elimination of full auto was a huge success and far more enjoyable so thanks to FK and those who gave their 2 cents in the previous thread

Firekitten

Just to make myself clear, my comments regarding the aformentioned site, was directed at players, and nobody affiliated with those running said site.
(Infact the site adding said rule speaks highly of them, even if airsoft reloaded apparently likes a bit of pain.( You heard it here first) )

Is this airsoft or after hours? :S

Airsoft Reloded

Firekitten wrote: »

Just to make myself clear, my comments regarding the aformentioned site, was directed at players, and nobody affiliated with those running said site.
(Infact the site adding said rule speaks highly of them, even if airsoft reloaded apparently likes a bit of pain.( You heard it here first) )

Is this airsoft or after hours? :S

Lol, sure it was obvious what you were saying. Like you said rules were put in place to stop such instances. Sorry for the delayed response, I was watching bones and then sleeping. That show has me hooked :pac:

Firekitten

Bones does rock... I got addicted and watched it all... Always do that. Did seasons one and two of Dexter in 4 days I think? lol



Oh yeah, something on topic about doors....





In the words of a great man that used to run the site i first played at.....


'dont be a fookin twat'.

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Firekitten

Ghost is right... We all forget how we were when we started... how out of our depth we felt... And I personally KNOW its hard for me to learn to use 'beginers' language for airsoft tech work, or with new recruits at work. Remember how it felt to be new... Sitting there smug in your molle teacosy and gucci marsbar pouches and laughing about the guy in the jeans, teeshirt and facemask is stupid.

I've been to games before (recently) in jeans, a hoodie, and with my mags in a go bag, and been talked down to by players who have been at this less time than me... They very quickly get shown up... Best bet is to treat everyone as an equal, and just play for the craic, not at the expense of others, physically, or psychologically.

Dogwatch

AGB_Ghost wrote: »

This may be a bit off topic but I just want to state what Ger said here about having fun, I`ve seen a few lads get a bit too rough and aggressive on new players and getting pretty rude by insulting their way of beginning airsoft, now you may have a bad game/ day but like Ger said, were here to have fun and play a game, dont make someone feel bad or stupid for messing up or asking silly question, most of all if someone is having a problem, help them out on the field, give them tips, back them up on the field or even let them have a go of your AEG since it may be a better help than a sportsline, make airsoft a better experience for someone not something they regret spending 200 on, So dont hold a grudge and dont throw petty insults at new players or players who messed up, at the end of the day its just a game and a bit of fun.

Agree entirely, and marshals could have a huge influence on how new players are treated.
Marshals should make it their business to ensure that new players are guided, and if necessary, get more experienced players to look after them.
Try a game where a new player is teamed with an experienced one. If one is hit they both have to respawn. Incentive for both to make it work.
I have spoken to players who take the mick or use new players as targets.
New young players are the future of our sport, so please encourage them when you get the opportunity, even if it means you have to take a few hits or interupt your game to guide and encourage them.

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Spooky-Vinny

AGB_Ghost wrote: »

great idea, I also think if courses did training days that would be pretty useful for new players, even the marshals dont have to be there, a few of us boardsies or someone who is very knowledgeable of the game could easily sit in and give a few tips and run down a few skirmish games

+1 on that! somthing like events during school holidays where it could be a fun day out on a site where run downs on bits and bobs ranging from guns, gear, game types etc could be held in the correct manner! short games, like tutorials! So that a correct mentality towards airsoft can be held from start to finish, which would naturaly rub off on other players!

Somwhere they can start without being sorrounded and/or threatened by the more experienced players where some 1337 could be hiding amongst!

Because I'm sure we all remember how we started...
xXx

Leftyflip

Dogwatch wrote: »

Agree entirely, and marshals could have a huge influence on how new players are treated.
Marshals should make it their business to ensure that new players are guided, and if necessary, get more experienced players to look after them.
Try a game where a new player is teamed with an experienced one. If one is hit they both have to respawn. Incentive for both to make it work.
I have spoken to players who take the mick or use new players as targets.
New young players are the future of our sport, so please encourage them when you get the opportunity, even if it means you have to take a few hits or interupt your game to guide and encourage them.

Right Peter, that's what you can do on Sunday :P

MonkeyGuy

I'm not so sure. I definitely think that people should be nice to newcomers but if you do a "tutorial" you're not really getting a full experience of the game? One of my favourite things is picking up tips from other players as I go along?

Spooky-Vinny

I see what you mean but these would obviously not be held often so after these 'open days' if you don't mind me calling they'll be skirmishing etc anyways! you know what i mean?
But it's just a thought
xXx

Firekitten

my advice? Don't have beginers days, or noob days... or 'how to play airsoft' days.

You learned didn't you? Just be plesant and friendly to players... new or old, offer anyone advice if they ask, new or old. Having special 'noob' days or events is only going to put people off by what apears to be a steep learning curve (its not) and an elitist bunch of folks. (its how it will appear)

im sure we can all manage to lead by example... follow the rules, be nice to other players, and just do it for the craic. thats waht airsoft is for in the end anyway?

Spooky-Vinny

Firekitten wrote: »

my advice? Don't have beginers days, or noob days... or 'how to play airsoft' days.

You learned didn't you? Just be plesant and friendly to players... new or old, offer anyone advice if they ask, new or old. Having special 'noob' days or events is only going to put people off by what apears to be a steep learning curve (its not) and an elitist bunch of folks. (its how it will appear)

im sure we can all manage to lead by example... follow the rules, be nice to other players, and just do it for the craic. thats waht airsoft is for in the end anyway?

Ok, I completly agree with that! +1
xXx

Dogwatch

Leftyflip wrote: »

Right Peter, that's what you can do on Sunday :P

We already do this at HRTA, you must have been asleep.:p:p:p:p:p

Leftyflip

Dogwatch wrote: »

We already do this at HRTA, you must have been asleep.:p:p:p:p:p

Ssssshh!

MonkeyGuy

Leftyflip wrote: »

Ssssshh!

Don't wake the baby? Hey, at those days do ye teach new players not to be pricks?

Leftyflip

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

Don't wake the baby? Hey, at those days do ye teach new players not to be pricks?

It's basically said "watch and learn, play fair, be treated fair, we're not here to hurt people".
But as everyone knows sometimes it happens...

MonkeyGuy

I think firing squads should be set up for rule breakers. It's an ideal punishment and it means everyone gets to take their frustration at the person out instead of breaking the rules themselves.

Leftyflip

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

I think firing squads should be set up for rule breakers. It's an ideal punishment and it means everyone gets to take their frustration at the person out instead of breaking the rules themselves.

Em no, that's assault. Which is illegal, it's a petty and childish method of getting around an issue rather than solving it. Issues like this can be solved very easily, being told to sit out for an amount of time along with a chat about their actions, being sent off site to contemplate why their actions were wrong. I'll quote myself "We're not here to hurt people"

Assault is not an answer. It'll be a cold day in hell when I see this happen.

swiftblade

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

I think firing squads should be set up for rule breakers. It's an ideal punishment and it means everyone gets to take their frustration at the person out instead of breaking the rules themselves.

*facepalm*

MonkeyGuy

I remember a custom of putting people in front of a firing squad if it was their birthday..... just saying? I take it back.

Leftyflip

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

I remember a custom of putting people in front of a firing squad if it was their birthday..... just saying? I take it back.

Usually done with their consent, I don't allow it for safety reasons - a stray BB can ruin your day. And Little Johnny's mother wouldn't appreciate him coming home looking like he had a fight with a hundred angry bees.

To be fair, the firing squad concept was one of my concerns when I first started, "what if I don't feel a hit when I'm running or something? Will that happen?", it put me off, now anyone who you talk to will say I'm a very honourable player, and have always apologised if I miss a hit, but that was the most concerning thing for me, up to 20 players shooting at me for a few seconds? I'd sooner leave.

swiftblade

Leftyflip wrote: »

Usually done with their consent, I don't allow it for safety reasons - a stray BB can ruin your day. And Little Johnny's mother wouldn't appreciate him coming home looking like he had a fight with a hundred angry bees.

To be fair, the firing squad concept was one of my concerns when I first started, "what if I don't feel a hit when I'm running or something? Will that happen?", it put me off, now anyone who you talk to will say I'm a very honourable player, and have always apologised if I miss a hit, but that was the most concerning thing for me, up to 20 players shooting at me for a few seconds? I'd sooner leave.

Exactly, we try to distance our selves from the concept of inflicting pain. It's not what the sport is about.
Your idea of punishing people by firing squad is using your AEG for a complete different purpose. Don't mention the "W" word, but in that case that's what it would be.

MonkeyGuy

Sorry it was more a joke than an actual suggestion...

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Leftyflip

AGB_Ghost wrote: »

I may sound like a ponce but I always apologize to guys if I head shot them, even if they count I know they hurt like HELL, makes me feel better to know that its only an accident and theres no bad blood.

Same with myself and a good few players I know. If I hit someone in a painful area accidentally - I'll throw my hand up, walk over and apologise, nothing worse than a painful shot to the head! Mind you - If their head is the only area exposed, I'll wait until they expose more of themselves, no point hurting someone just to get them out.

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MonkeyGuy

I remember one time I was crawling up prone, thought I was well hidden, with my gun tucked under my arm. Next thing a hear a burst and a sudden stinging on my head. I wouldn't have minded too much but there was a guy five feet to my left, barely even crouching, swinging an m14 and shooting everywhere... anyways afterwards the guy who shot me was too busy laughing to apologise, I would've been annoyed, but it was good shooting and I probably would've fell over laughing had we swapped roles.

Inari

There was some interesting points made, and I think Firekitten's is of utmost importance:

Nothing says 'You're NEW and not one of us" than n00blet days, or welcome days. That might sound harsh, but it is telling them that a barrier exists. You are far better off being people. Socialise, talk to people, and if you hit it off, talk more. You don't need to try extraordinarily hard, rather just be civil, and hell, you might actually like the people you meet

On my first skirmish, I went with 7 other people, and the first thing I did was introduce myself, talk to people, be friendly, and I had a great day. What I notice at skirmishes all the time are the cliques, with insurpassable walls/boundaries i.e. exuding 'Don't talk to us' - this is normal for people, to get comfortable with your friends and teammates, but it doesn't take much to be friendly. At least, that's my opinion

Patrick 1

Hmm, the doors thing is a major problem. Here in UL we have an airsoft society going (Set up this year, woot) and we try to meet atleast once a week to go over tactics and rules of engagement and all that sort of jazz. In fairness to the guys there they took the whole two weeks worth of safety and proper handling pretty well. We then slowly shifted over to doing cqb tactics, room breaching and clearing and what to do.
I think showing people how it should be done as opposed to ramboesque style of playing should be encouraged, and I know that most major vets. will help any new player in regards to this. What we tell our guys is to try and gently open the door, if it opens a small bit go for the momentum, with three getting in the door quickly, efficiently and covering all the damn corners, with the fourth guy covering the hall outside. If the door is barricaded toss in a grenade, wait and see what falls out.
By the way, if anyone in UL sees people walking around in camo with rifles we're cleared with security, cause we kick ass.

Firekitten

Best way....

'here, this way is pretty good for doing that'

Make it an offer, a casual assistance. Ive showed loads of players, new and old some new ways to do things, or offered advice when they were monging something. Most take it happily. Be an ego monster and do the:

'oh thats so wrong, you should be doing it like me! *mime action*' is going to get them to ignore you faster than obama shifted attention off his birth certificate. Its all a matter of aproach.

Patrick 1

Too true, too true, people hate being instructed, but don't mind learning, weird, huh?

jeawan

Patrick 1 wrote: »

Too true, too true, people hate being instructed, but don't mind learning, weird, huh?

Not all people . I used to do allot of instructing and know that if someone has good advice listen as there is always someone better then you . keep that in your head and you tend to have a nice open mind to most things and tend to learn better i found .

On my first day out though was me and the brother we grouped up with a really friendly bunch of guys from the scorpions and they basically showed us the ropes that day and we loved it and are still playing .