Implications of Bin Laden's death?

invinciblePRSTV

wes wrote: »

Osama has been imho largely irrelevant for a while now. He wanted to create a mass movement, but he failed. Instead we have the Arab spring of largely peaceful protests taking down the dictators, that Osama wanted to get rid of. His death is just the final part of his utter failure to achieve any of his objectives.

Isn't there a fundamentalist element to pretty much all of the peaceful protests which have taken down these regimes? eg Egypt, Syria, Yemen and the like have elements in the political opposition which are protesting these regimes?

Whilst not specifically AQ, i would be shocked if there weren't what the yanks would call "sympathisers" within these groups?

southsiderosie

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Isn't there a fundamentalist element to pretty much all of the peaceful protests which have taken down these regimes? eg Egypt, Syria, Yemen and the like have elements in the political opposition which are protesting these regimes?

Whilst not specifically AQ, i would be shocked if there weren't what the yanks would call "sympathisers" within these groups?

Groups like the Muslim Brotherhood were around long before Bin Laden/AQ became prominent though.

invinciblePRSTV

southsiderosie wrote: »

Groups like the Muslim Brotherhood were around long before Bin Laden/AQ became prominent though.

Indeed, but seeing as the MB were repressed by the very same government which was funded and supported by the US government over a period of decades then it's a great example of how and why Bin Laden and AQ's actions were/are supported by the public throughout the Islamic world.

Jonny7

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Mission accomplished. Well worth the decade long orgy of violence across Afganistan, Iraq and Pakistan perpetrated by the US military I say.

So can we expect the Americans to go home now from these area's?

Or, more likely, will we see them stay in these places long term fighting locals who are labelled as 'terrorists' whilst propping up puppet governments? Will they in fact ever leave these countries? somehow i doubt it.

So you are basically saying that the US are in Afghanistan, Iraq, and conducting operations in Pakistan just to kill this one man? uuhh...

And that they are in a non oil rich, non strategic dusty hellhole like Afghanistan.. just to fight locals.. and pretend they are terrorists.. for the heck of it?

For a very intelligent, powerful, media-manipulating state like the US thats a pretty f*cking stupid plan don't you agree

invinciblePRSTV

Jonny7 wrote: »

So you are basically saying that the US are in Afghanistan, Iraq, and conducting operations in Pakistan just to kill this one man? uuhh...

I'm saying that once the US decides to enter a country, chances are they'll never leave.

Jonny7 wrote: »

And that they are in a non oil rich, non strategic dusty hellhole like Afghanistan.. just to fight locals.. and pretend they are terrorists.. for the heck of it?

They've been in Afghanistan a decade now, installed a puppet government and bombed it back to the middle ages, killing countless thousands in the process. how long more do they need to be there?

Jonny7 wrote: »

For a very intelligent, powerful, media-manipulating state like the US thats a pretty f*cking stupid plan don't you agree

Well it's not like the US government or military have never come up with a "pretty f*cking stupid plan" before right?

Wolfe Tone

What proof do we have that this actually happened?

wes

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Isn't there a fundamentalist element to pretty much all of the peaceful protests which have taken down these regimes? eg Egypt, Syria, Yemen and the like have elements in the political opposition which are protesting these regimes?

Whilst not specifically AQ, i would be shocked if there weren't what the yanks would call "sympathisers" within these groups?

A lot of those groups have nothing to do with AQ, and they are only 1 small part of the protests, and they have also largely not engaged in violence. Its seem at every level OBL has failed imho.

Mr.Micro

Once again the US flouts human rights and the right to a fair trial by sending in a murder squad to kill bin Laden. I am totally opposed to terrorism in any form but equally opposed to the the way the US can conduct its own official terrorism in other countries but preach about freedom and justice at home. We will never know the full extent of bin Laden's involvement with 9/11 now as the US were never going to allow any information other than its own to be aired in public so all the truth is denied and what might have come out about Bush and Co and his relations/ties with the bin Laden family.

It would have been better to have kept the whole thing quiet so as to avoid future recriminations of revenge but no a big feather in the cap of the US and Obama. The Republicans will be happy on one hand and peeved that it will be a big big boost for Obama who got bin Laden where the the war criminal Bush did not.

KeithAFC

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Once again the US flouts human rights and the right to a fair trial by sending in a murder squad to kill bin Laden. I am totally opposed to terrorism in any form but equally opposed to the the way the US can conduct its own official terrorism in other countries but preach about freedom and justice at home. We will never know the full extent of bin Laden's involvement with 9/11 now as the US were never going to allow any information other than its own to be aired in public so all the truth is denied and what might have come out about Bush and Co and his relations/ties with the bin Laden family.

It would have been better to have kept the whole thing quiet so as to avoid future recriminations of revenge but no a big feather in the cap of the US and Obama. The Republicans will be happy on one hand and peeved that it will be a big big boost for Obama who got bin Laden where the the war criminal Bush did not.

He was utter sewage and didn't deserve a trial. Im glad they killed him. Well done America and its Allies.

Lustrum

KeithAFC wrote: »

He was utter sewage and didn't deserve a trial. Im glad they killed him. Well done America and its Allies.

Amen to that, kill them all! Fair trial my ass, it would be a waste of time, same with all the IRA scummers up north (and south) who are threatening action against the PSNI, kill them all

Unfortunately, sometimes 2 wrongs do make a right

KeithAFC

Lustrum wrote: »

Amen to that, kill them all! Fair trial my ass, it would be a waste of time, same with all the IRA scummers up north (and south) who are threatening action against the PSNI, kill them all

Unfortunately, sometimes 2 wrongs do make a right

:pac:

I think the RIRA is not in the league of this case but i get your point. Yeah. Bin laden though had no grounds for a trial at all.

Corsendonk

KeithAFC wrote: »

He was utter sewage and didn't deserve a trial. Im glad they killed him. Well done America and its Allies.

Perhaps the Taliban sacificed him now that they have an operative in the White House!

Jonny7

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I'm saying that once the US decides to enter a country, chances are they'll never leave.

Oh god, at the risk of derailing the thread

Why? That doesn't make any sense, using that logic, why aren't they still in Vietnam?

They've been in Afghanistan a decade now, installed a puppet government and bombed it back to the middle ages, killing countless thousands in the process. how long more do they need to be there?

Afghanistan was operation kick-ass after 911, it was a cake-walk with the Northern Alliance, the Taliban basically fled, it was then critically abandoned to a skeleton crew while Bush and Cheney started their democracy through force neocon whirlwind tour first stop - Iraq and into an utter quagmire

Focused on that, Afghanistan has become its own nightmare, as I predicted back at the time.

They do NOT want to be there for the sake of it, but if they pull out tomorrow, the consequences for the local people is insane, Islamic fundamentalists are going to hit those places like the fist of an angry god.

They want to be the hell out of Afghan and Iraq, end of story.

Well it's not like the US government or military have never come up with a "pretty f*cking stupid plan" before right?

I was referring to your statement when you claimed that the US labels local people as 'terrorists' just to fight them

Afghanistan is a hellhole, do you actually think the US wants to still be there? for what gain? using locals as target practice? to call them terrorists? so they can justify being somewhere they don't want to be for even longer? Brain no understand

yammycat

OBL was never an issue really, he got lucky with 9/11, al queda was never the big huge evil monster it was claimed, never more than a few individuals with some cash and a few contacts and never a real threat again after 9/11. As far as effect of his death on the ground there will be none as he had no influence in anything anymore only saving his own skin.

It's good for Obama's pr though.

gandalf

KeithAFC wrote: »

Bin laden though had no grounds for a trial at all.

Well you could say that but if you are a nation that says its driving aim is to bring democracy, standards and the rule of law to countries then you should expect them to extend these ideals to even its most hated enemies.

That is of course if they truly mean what they preach

Mr.Micro

KeithAFC wrote: »

He was utter sewage and didn't deserve a trial. Im glad they killed him. Well done America and its Allies.

I am sure he was, but he has company Bush, Blair, Cheyney, Brown, Rumsfeld and many others who did their killing in other ways and are responsible for the deaths and torture hundreds of thousands of men, women and children. A trial is a fundamental right in a democracy but that only applies in the US and to US citizens it appears.

jank

Manic Moran wrote: »

Bin Laden was a priority target for the US Government no matter who was in charge. You'd expect him to be found eventually.

NTM

Well if McCain was elected we would have to add 4 years to that eventually.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/05/02/mccain_opposed_going_into_pakistan.html

Surprised MM, maybe you need a lemon.

rokossovsky

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What the hell are they going to do with the body?

They took it aboard a naval vessel in the Indian Ocean. Emptied out the freezers into the sea for chum. Then turfed him over and watched the feeding frenzy. Deadly youtube footage

KeithAFC

Well you could say that but if you are a nation that says its driving aim is to bring democracy, standards and the rule of law to countries then you should expect them to extend these ideals to even its most hated enemies.

That is of course if they truly mean what they preach

To be honest, 9/11 was the biggest terroist attack of all time. The whole world seen it on TV and the awful scenes. The guys in this Navy Seal team for all we know probably lost a family member during 9/11.

I have no problem at all with this guy being taken out. None at all. He didn't deserve a trial as far as im concerned. He was already guilty, everyone knows he was guilty and this was his execution. Just my view.

Mr.Micro

The US always has to have an enemy and bin Laden will be replaced shortly with some other face. The US has to be at war with someone.....the war on terror continues, but who will protect the world from the US and its ever increasing imperialism in the guise of spreading democracy?

gandalf

KeithAFC wrote: »

To be honest, 9/11 was the biggest terroist attack of all time. The whole world seen it on TV and the awful scenes.

Agree 100% with you on this. It was dreadful and my sister who worked in Boston at the time lost people she knew in the attacks.

The guys in this Navy Seal team for all we know probably lost a family member during 9/11.

If that is how they react then they should not be part of a highly disciplined specialist military team. I would doubt that the military would allow personal take part in an operation if it was felt they would be influenced by emotional issues.

I have no problem at all with this guy being taken out. None at all. He didn't deserve a trial as far as im concerned. He was already guilty, everyone knows he was guilty and this was his execution. Just my view.

That is your opinion but as I said if you are a country preaching about the rule of law then in reality you should practice that as well. You should not abandon your ideals because it suits your short term objectives because to those people you say you are trying to "liberate" it appears that you are a pack of hypocrites.

KeithAFC

gandalf wrote: »

Agree 100% with you on this. It was dreadful and my sister who worked in Boston at the time lost people she knew in the attacks.



If that is how they react then they should not be part of a highly disciplined specialist military team. I would doubt that the military would allow personal take part in an operation if it was felt they would be influenced by emotional issues.



That is your opinion but as I said if you are a country preaching about the rule of law then in reality you should practice that as well. You should not abandon your ideals because it suits your short term objectives because to those people you say you are trying to "liberate" it appears that you are a pack of hypocrites.

Not when it comes to this guy. What would his capture do anyway? Years probably in regards to a trial when we all know he is/was guilty.

murpho999

Anybody watched coverage on Fox News? Truly sickening station.

Jubilant presenters reporting on street scenes of people screaming 'USA' that would make you think they had won the world cup.

I think it's these attitudes that makes them disliked by certain groups and would have been better to show some humility in my opinion.

Poccington

Bin Laden was a hell of a morale boost but in terms of damaging AQ's capabilities, I can't see it doing an obscene amount of damage to AQ in an operational sense.

Now they need to find and deal with al-Zawahiri. While OBL was the figurehead and real face of AQ and extremism in general, it's widely accepted that al-Zawahiri is the one pulling the strings.

Deal with him to really damage AQ and even then, AQ is very quickly becoming an ideology rather than the organisation that it was.

Mr.Micro

murpho999 wrote: »

Anybody watched coverage on Fox News? Truly sickening station.

Jubilant presenters reporting on street scenes of people screaming 'USA' that would make you think they had won the world cup.

I think it's these attitudes that makes them disliked by certain groups and would have been better to show some humility in my opinion.

The Americans alas know little about the rest of the world and believe almost everything they are told and I too was watching some reaction on US TV earlier and I had to turn it off. No balance or any analysis of any sort.

jank

KeithAFC wrote: »

To be honest, 9/11 was the biggest terroist attack of all time. The whole world seen it on TV and the awful scenes. The guys in this Navy Seal team for all we know probably lost a family member during 9/11.

.

For all we know I am probably the next winner of Miss Ireland...;)

invinciblePRSTV

Jonny7 wrote: »

Oh god, at the risk of derailing the thread

Why? That doesn't make any sense, using that logic, why aren't they still in Vietnam?

Oh god, at the risk of turning this thread into a history lesson....

When you've time to yourself, have a look at the map and see where the US has been militarily active over the past 120 or so years. Now take a look at where the US has military bases. If you're doing it correctly you'll see a strong correlation between the two, such as Europe, Japan, the Caribbean, various points round the Pacific and so forth.

Why aren't they still in Vietnam? because they got beat, to paraphrase your goodself "duuuhhhhh".

Jonny7 wrote: »

Afghanistan was operation kick-ass after 911, it was a cake-walk with the Northern Alliance, the Taliban basically fled, it was then critically abandoned to a skeleton crew while Bush and Cheney started their democracy through force neocon whirlwind tour first stop - Iraq and into an utter quagmire

Focused on that, Afghanistan has become its own nightmare, as I predicted back at the time.

They do NOT want to be there for the sake of it, but if they pull out tomorrow, the consequences for the local people is insane, Islamic fundamentalists are going to hit those places like the fist of an angry god.

They want to be the hell out of Afghan and Iraq, end of story.

So, a decade on, and after countless thousands dead and billions if not trillions spent, and Afghanistan is in no better place then it was in 2001? the only difference is, of course, the US has a military presence there and a puppet government in place to give its occupation the sheen of respectability and legality.

Jonny7 wrote: »

I was referring to your statement when you claimed that the US labels local people as 'terrorists' just to fight them

Not to fight them, but to kill them and get away with it. Wikileaks showed us time and time and again that the US military killed scores of Afghan civilians and tried to pretend it didn't happen or cover up there actions by describing them as 'enemy combatants', when the reality was they were just innocents like you or I.

Jonny7 wrote: »

Afghanistan is a hellhole, do you actually think the US wants to still be there? for what gain? using locals as target practice? to call them terrorists? so they can justify being somewhere they don't want to be for even longer? Brain no understand

Hmm I don't know why the Yanks want to be in Afghanistan. After all it's only sheer coincidence that the US has invaded two countries in the past decade which share a land border with Iran.

It definitely isn't a case of an aggressive economic empire securing geo-political strategic objectives, oh no, definitely not.:pac:

jank

murpho999 wrote: »

Anybody watched coverage on Fox News? Truly sickening station.

Jubilant presenters reporting on street scenes of people screaming 'USA' that would make you think they had won the world cup.

I think it's these attitudes that makes them disliked by certain groups and would have been better to show some humility in my opinion.

Americans are like that, in fairness this is their moment but watching a large crowd recite the pledge of allegiance was a little OTT, even for me.

I think what Americans should be talking about though is what is going in in the Arab world now, Syria, Egypt and so on. They have to get that right at all cost otherwise it will be a cluster **** for the next 30 years. Give the average Arab man and woman the same freedoms that they enjoy in the states and it will be a greater victory than killing 1 million OBL's.

southsiderosie

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Oh god, at the risk of turning this thread into a history lesson....

When you've time to yourself, have a look at the map and see where the US has been militarily active over the past 120 or so years. Now take a look at where the US has military bases. If you're doing it correctly you'll see a strong correlation between the two, such as Europe, Japan, the Caribbean, various points round the Pacific and so forth.

Not to drag this thread further off topic, but in a lot of these places, the US military presence was/is welcomed because it 1) provides a security umbrella, and 2) provided an economic boost to both the government and surrounding areas.

The US also has bases in countries where it has never fought a war, such as Spain and Turkey.

But don't let all of this get in the way of a good rant now.

Chuck Stone

Imo the US would rather have had him alive. In the eyes of people sympathetic to AQ he will be viewed as having died with his boots on fighting the infidels.