Europe to become a burqa free area in public?

caseyann

Belgium moves closer to banning burqa in public

BRUSSELS (AP) — Belgium has taken a major step toward banning burqa-type Islamic dress in public when its lower house of parliament overwhelmingly backed the measure.
After Thursday's approval, the senate still has several weeks to decide whether to put the bill up for further discussion and another vote.
The Belgian legislature already came close to approving such legislation last year, but the process was held up at the last moment when the governing coalition collapsed.
On Thursday, the bill was approved by an overwhelming majority of 136-1 and two abstentions

How many countries to follow suit?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gbLV4iC71gePVLFKJVHY48Natjlg?docId=453c9b3df2294806a7428a3830854792

I think Ireland isnt going to because we havent got a high amount of people who wear them here.

Knight990

I can't see it happening in Ireland, if only because of the debates it would raise. Banning the Burqa would raise questions about banning all public displays of religion (including crucifixes, etc).

Given the stuff that we have to worry about at the moment, I don't think the Irish Government will pay any attention to it.

That is so stupid :mad::mad:

Unpossible

caseyann wrote: »

I think Ireland isnt going to because we havent got a high amount of people who wear them here.

From what I remember, the amount that wore it in france was also very low and they still banned it.

dlofnep

It won't happen in Ireland.

caseyann

Unpossible wrote: »

From what I remember, the amount that wore it in france was also very low and they still banned it.

I think seen as its a hell of alot less than France and rising numbers in France than here.We hardly have a handful burqa wearing Muslims.

Einhard

I love the way it's dressed up as championing the rights of women- by deciding what they can and cannot wear! yeah, pull the other one sarkozy. Nothing at all to do with pandering to right-wing xenophobia and the lowest political common denominator, in a bid to see off Le Pen's daughter eh?!

I'm not sure what the situation is in Belgium, but I imagine some of the support at least is sectarian in origin. According to stats I heard, there were about 2500 women in France who wore the full covering. It's likely to be far less in Belgium. And yet the way people go on about it, one would swear every second person had their faces covered.

Unpossible

Could the absence of a significant right wing or conservative party be the reason we won't have such a ban?

Sarkozy is taking on LePenn in the next election, so the ban might have helped him against her.

Bullseye1

I'm all for it. No problem with the hair scarf but no need to cover up the face. Not in a civilised society anyway.

Knight990

Unpossible wrote: »

Could the absence of a significant right wing or conservative party be the reason we won't have such a ban?

I think you're spot on with this - it is a very niche issue that would usually only be taken up only by parties on the very far right.

Einhard

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm all for it. No problem with the hair scarf but no need to cover up the face. Not in a civilised society anyway.

It's civilised to tell women what to wear?

Bullseye1

Einhard wrote: »

It's civilised to tell women what to wear?

Your not allowed to wear your motorcycle helmet into a bank. For security reasons alone it should be banned.

The Waltzing Consumer

Einhard wrote: »

It's civilised to tell women what to wear?

Eh yes. When you go to a shopping centre or church, you can't go naked, you don't walk into a bank wearing a balaclava. I am not going to be crying over nudists or balaclava-loving people's rights being trampled on. Bigger issues to deal with, if European countries want to ban it, who cares? Good for them. Don't go there if you don't like it.

Einhard

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Your not allowed to wear your motorcycle helmet into a bank. For security reasons alone it should be banned.

So ban the burqas in banks then...

And how many crimes carried out by burqa wearing gangsters have there been? If anything, I'd imagine wearing a burqa would make one less likely to commit a crime, because one would be instantly conspicuous. Pretty certain most criminals want to fit in and be onobstrusive as they break the law. To argue that we need to ban the burqa for security reasons is to propose a soltuion for a non-existent problem.

dlofnep

Agreed with Einhard.

The Waltzing Consumer

Einhard wrote: »

And how many crimes carried out by burqa wearing gangsters have there been? If anything, I'd imagine wearing a burqa would make one less likely to commit a crime, because one would be instantly conspicuous. Pretty certain most criminals want to fit in and be onobstrusive as they break the law. To argue that we need to ban the burqa for security reasons is to propose a soltuion for a non-existent problem.

I was nearly going to agree until I typed burqa robbery in google and laughed my head off with the amount of news articles featuring robberies across the world by burqa clad men.
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&sa=X&ei=kOO9TY_uAsTJhAefoMzIBQ&ved=0CBgQBSgA&q=burqa+robbery&spell=1

Bullseye1

Einhard wrote: »

So ban the burqas in banks then...

And how many crimes carried out by burqa wearing gangsters have there been? If anything, I'd imagine wearing a burqa would make one less likely to commit a crime, because one would be instantly conspicuous. Pretty certain most criminals want to fit in and be onobstrusive as they break the law. To argue that we need to ban the burqa for security reasons is to propose a soltuion for a non-existent problem.

They make for ideal cover for suicide bombers so I've read.

Einhard

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Eh yes. When you go to a shopping centre or church, you can't go naked,you don't walk into a bank wearing a balaclava.

First off, in the former, the state isn't telling you what to wear- it's telling you to wear something. In the latter, I have no problem with private institutions adopting a dress code. Dictating what people wear on the street though, is entirely different.

Bigger issues to deal with, if European countries want to ban it, who cares?

Hmmm, the women who are having theor sartorial choices imposed on them by state dictat perhaps? The people who rightly see this is a cynical sop to the xenophobic right in order to garner votes? Me. Many others across Europe, including her on boards, who see this type of carry on, along with the disgraceful banning of minarets in Switzerland, as part of a pattern of Islamophobia? That's why...

Don't go there if you don't like it.

If a 5 year old responded with this, I'd laugh. The fact that it is coming from someone I presume is an adult, is quite sad.

Einhard

Bullseye1 wrote: »

They make for ideal cover for suicide bombers so I've read.

Well you've heard wrong then. How many of the London bombers were wearing burqas? In non-Muslim countries, the very fact of wearing a burqa automatically makes people, and security forces, more apprehensive and watchful, ie the last thing the suicide bomber wants. Indeed, there's been a move underway for quite a while amongst Islamic terror groups, to move away from using those likely to arouse most suspicion when choosing operatives for their bombing missions.

Einhard

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I was nearly going to agree until I typed burqa robbery in google and laughed my head off with the amount of news articles featuring robberies across the world by burqa clad men.
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&sa=X&ei=kOO9TY_uAsTJhAefoMzIBQ&ved=0CBgQBSgA&q=burqa+robbery&spell=1

Practically every article on the first two pages deal with the same two robberies...

The Waltzing Consumer

Einhard wrote: »

First off, in the former, the state isn't telling you what to wear- it's telling you to wear something. In the latter, I have no problem with private institutions adopting a dress code. Dictating what people wear on the street though, is entirely different.

It is not different. You have just written that you think it is fine for the Government to tell people to wear something on the street but not okay to tell them to not wear something? That is flawed logic right there. Either you think the government has a right to legislate in areas of clothing and appearance if needed or it has zero right to legislate for anyone at all.

Einhard wrote: »

Hmmm, the women who are having theor sartorial choices imposed on them by state dictat perhaps? The people who rightly see this is a cynical sop to the xenophobic right in order to garner votes? Me. Many others across Europe, including her on boards, who see this type of carry on, along with the disgraceful banning of minarets in Switzerland, as part of a pattern of Islamophobia? That's why...

Yeah, but you could argue that with many controversial things and not be 100% accurate. People can dress it up as anti-Islam, I don't really believe that. I think most people just hate the burqa, it makes them very uncomfortable and is similar to seeing someone in a balaclava, just creepy. If some religion started that encourages their members to wear balaclavas, would you think that is okay to have them in the street?

As for the Swiss, meh, I lived there, never even saw a minaret so I am not even sure where that came from.

Bullseye1

Einhard wrote: »

Well you've heard wrong then. How many of the London bombers were wearing burqas? In non-Muslim countries, the very fact of wearing a burqa automatically makes people, and security forces, more apprehensive and watchful, ie the last thing the suicide bomber wants. Indeed, there's been a move underway for quite a while amongst Islamic terror groups, to move away from using those likely to arouse most suspicion when choosing operatives for their bombing missions.

Israel has had it's fair share, as have Moscow. If it makes it harder for fundamentalists to bomb innocent people then I'm all for its banning. Once bombing are longer an issue and if the women want to wear the item of clothing then fine.

evolving_doors

Don't the sisters of mercy wear a form of Burqa?

If i want to walk around the streets of Paris with a chicken on my head I can, but if I wrap a cloth around it I'm thrown into the back of a police van!! whats the story there..
what if it's very dusty and you want to put a burqa on? or if your an artist doing a strange installation?

I'm sick of people who take offense on behalf of other people.. no-one can really say exactly why a woman shouldn't be allowed to dress up the way they want i.e. with a burqa ...apart from some vague mutterings of protecting womens freedom by banning it...a contradiction in terms surely!!!

What about female Ninja warriors or do they have to be muslim to qualify for being arrested?

Bullseye1

She'd be stopped right away unless of course she was on the set of Kill Bill.

enda1

I live in Brussels. I have never seen anyone in Brussels wearing a Burka.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Einhard wrote: »

And how many crimes carried out by burqa wearing gangsters have there been?

How many crimes are committed by people in the nip?

They wouldn't even have any place to hide a firearm... unless...

I probably shouldn't finish that sentence.

Permabear

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noel farrell

long before burqas or face covering was seen on a large scale. it was an offence to wear a mask or cover your face in ireland i think it might be an old english law .i am sure you know the old tradition of following the wren you dressed up and wore face covering , i was once warned by guard going home dressed up , that to wear a mask or viserd was against law , bla bla if he caught me again he would take me to court. as you know we have lots of laws in ireland. dogs, wild weeds masks are but a few . so its not something new not much revenue in it so a blind eye will be turned

The Waltzing Consumer

Permabear wrote: »

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Fair enough, but again, you either believe that governments have the right to legislate about appearance or they don't. I think they have a right to legislate in these areas if needed. A poster earlier had no problem at all with legislating against nudists in public areas, whilst condemning the burqa ban, which is hypocritical and just shows his view is more about his opinion rather then the idea of governments legislating about clothing and appearance.

I have no problem with local or national government saying you have to wear clothes in public, you can't wear clothes that completely hide your identity such as balaclavas or burqas and may pose a public risk.

hairy sailor

been to a few arab countries working on ship's.the girl's i worked with had to wear long sleeves & trousers in some of the countries while going ashore,so if they have to abide by the rules out there the same should go for over here.arab's don't like to bend the rules for westerner's in thier countries but whinge about human rights over here,most of them don't know the meaning of the word,I've no problem with multi-culturism but i'm european & live a european lifestyle not a middle eastern one.Every country i've visited i had to obey the local law's,so if the burka gets banned in europe,which i hope it does,they'll just have to deal with it.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Callan57

I read somewhere that the majority of burka wearers in France are converts rather than Muslin by birth. This is hardly surprising in that generally converts to any religion tend to go a bit OTT in an effort to prove their sincerity. If Sarkozy
wants to stop it he should make it compulsory ... humans are naturally perverse creatures and if it's compulsory nobody will be wearing it in a month.

On a lighter note with our potholed roads I reckon you'd break your neck wearing a burka here .... I've never seen anyone wear one in Ireland anyway. It might well catch on as dress of choice for a number of bankers though! :mad:

oscarBravo

noel farrell wrote: »

long before burqas or face covering was seen on a large scale. it was an offence to wear a mask or cover your face in ireland i think it might be an old english law...

I've heard that before, and when I challenged the person who claimed it to cite the legislation, they couldn't.

It's not an offence to cover your face in Ireland, or every motorcyclist in the country would be a felon.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Fair enough, but again, you either believe that governments have the right to legislate about appearance or they don't.

So if the Irish government outlawed white tee-shirts, you'd be 100% behind their undisputed right to do so?

Lu Tze

Permabear wrote: »

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Without closer investigation it is not apparent that you have altered/hidden your identity. With a burka it is.

It is a social barrier though - and a major problem in you are trying to integrate these communities into the wider society in ireland.

Are you as likely to strike up a conversation in with somebody who has concealed everything but the eyes on their face (be that a burka or motorcycle helmet) compared to somebody who you can see their reaction as you approach?

The Waltzing Consumer

oscarBravo wrote: »

So if the Irish government outlawed white tee-shirts, you'd be 100% behind their undisputed right to do so?

You're missing my point. I am not talking about any particular item of clothing. I am talking about the idea that local or national government have the right to legislate about clothing and appearance in public areas. I believe they have a right to legislate in this area.

Laminations

Not this old chestnut This post had been deleted.[/QUOTE]

Permabear

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The Waltzing Consumer

Permabear wrote: »

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Thousands of women sunbathe topless in public spaces in Ireland :eek: Why the hell was I not told about this? I have actually never seen anyone completely nude or topless in an Irish park, beach or public place. If you could kindly tell me where this is going on, I would be very grateful. :P

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, public order offense and public decency I guess. Again, I don't have huge problems with it or with other pieces of clothing but I do think the government have a right to legislate on clothing, nudism or appearance if it is needed.

Permabear wrote: »

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Some good points about Halloween, but I am not interested in being a killjoy so have no answer.

Well, I guess Gardai may have a problem if you are completely covered up head to toe, as would other people. A bit of consideration would be in order. I have zero interest in exercising my rights and trying to freak families out by looking like some idiot wearing different types of clothing that cover up all your skin and cover your eyes.

oscarBravo

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

You're missing my point. I am not talking about any particular item of clothing. I am talking about the idea that local or national government have the right to legislate about clothing and appearance in public areas. I believe they have a right to legislate in this area.

I'm not missing your point. You're claiming that the government have every right to tell us what we're not allowed to wear. Do you believe that they have the right to ban white tee-shirts? If they did, would you quietly and obediently stop wearing white tee-shirts?

Permabear

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yammycat

Einhard wrote: »

It's civilised to tell women what to wear?

bit ironic given woman don't choose to wear them but are told to

The Waltzing Consumer

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not missing your point. You're claiming that the government have every right to tell us what we're not allowed to wear. Do you believe that they have the right to ban white tee-shirts? If they did, would you quietly and obediently stop wearing white tee-shirts?

:rolleyes: Okay so you pick a very neutral example to back up your extreme point of view when you know perfectly well that the government is not going to ban bland normal pieces of clothing. I am guessing you would have no problem with a guy walking down the road in a white t-shirt with nazi symbols drawn on it and slogans like kill all jews or kill ni**ers? Is that fine?

You have a very weak argument. I am simply saying that government has a right to legislate against clothing or appearance IF NEEDED when it comes to extreme clothing such as balaclavas and burqas and if someone wore a nazi t-shirt or extremely offensive t-shirt. I have not said anything to do with banning converse shoes or plain white t-shirts. So get a grip.

The Waltzing Consumer

Permabear wrote: »

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That is France, I am not French.

Permabear wrote: »

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I doubt very much you are going to tell me you would think it is fine for a man to be naked on public property outside a school would you? Should a person be allowed outside a school to wear a t-shirt stating his love for pedophilia? According to you, the government has no right to tell this guy what to wear so you would support that. If you want to take such a hardline attitude towards personal freedom and clothing then you would have to defend these examples too if your logic is to be correct and your argument consistent?

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, I think it is not okay for a person to wear a t-shirt with nazi symbols and slogans such as "kill all jews" or "kill all nig*ers" on it in a public place, but hey, if you want to defend these type of extreme clothing, go ahead. I would not defend someone wearing a balaclava walking down Grafton street, but hey, go ahead.

looksee

Even the smallest amount of research establishes the fact that the styles of the various forms of veils are regional rather than religious. In a number of places at various times both Muslim authorities and secular governments have had various regulations about the necessity to wear the full veil. In some countries women have only started wearing full veils at the behest of such as the Taliban.

It is possible to make the same arguments that are made about the burka etc and apply them to male Muslim dress. We don't see too much of the male head coverings - in fact where you see a woman in full veil with a man, he is usually in completely western clothing. Is it only women who are good muslims?

There is no reason why there should be any issue about any form of dress, including the various Muslim styles that stop short of actually covering the face on the one hand, and the minimal clothing that stops short of nudity that can be seen in Irish towns, on the other.

There is, however a sufficient distaste for both total nudity, and total cover-up in everyday life to make it reasonable for a majority opinion to be respected. In an 'artistic' context (carnivals etc) or in specific areas (nudist beaches/mosques) either of these extremes are acceptable, but in everyday life, if local custom requires that a person's face should be visible for communication, then it is not unreasonable to expect people to conform.

You might think you have a right to build any sort of house you wish, anywhere you wish, but planning laws restrict this, in the interest of the preferences of the wider community.

You might feel you have a right to run a scrapyard from your front garden, but you will not be allowed - is it anyone else's business what you do in your front garden?

You might feel you are entitled to genitally mutilate your daughters, because that is what you believe in, but there are laws against it here.

There are lots of things that we cannot do, in the interest of the wider community's comfort and preferences, why is asking people not to cover their face an exception if it goes against local custom?

Permabear

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The Waltzing Consumer

Permabear wrote: »

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Lol, what a post! The only serious part I will reply, the rest, well frankly, is ludicrous and does not merit any response. I am not a killjoy and if people wish to dress up for Hallowe'en, so be it. It is a tradition and yearly celebration accepted by everyone in society. Aside from that, it beggers belief you are a mod when you come up with some of that

IngazZagni

caseyann wrote: »

I think Ireland isnt going to because we havent got a high amount of people who wear them here.

But that is exactly the time to introduce the ban when it effects a minimum amount of people as possible. Why wait until it's very prevalent in Irish society before deciding to make a move? It would make such a move far more difficult to introduce and would be faced with far more opposition.

IngazZagni

IngazZagni wrote: »

But that is exactly the time to introduce the ban when it effects a minimum amount of people as possible. Why wait until it's very prevalent in Irish society before deciding to make a move? It would make such a move far more difficult to introduce and would be faced with far more opposition.

What?

Anyway it shouldn't be introduced at all, such a ban would be ridiculous.

oscarBravo

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: Okay so you pick a very neutral example to back up your extreme point of view when you know perfectly well that the government is not going to ban bland normal pieces of clothing.

Well, that's what I was getting at. You're happy enough to hear about a certain type of clothing being banned, because that's a type of clothing you personally have an issue with. So your argument is not that the government has the right to tell you what you can and can't wear, it's that they have the right to tell other people what they can and can't wear.

I am guessing you would have no problem with a guy walking down the road in a white t-shirt with nazi symbols drawn on it and slogans like kill all jews or kill ni**ers? Is that fine?

I would afford such a person the respect he commanded. Do you think that such a t-shirt should be outlawed? Do you think that Sinn Féin should be prosecuted for selling pro-IRA t-shirts on their website? Do you think a Fine Gael/Labour government should be allowed to ban Fianna Fáil t-shirts?

You have a very weak argument. I am simply saying that government has a right to legislate against clothing or appearance IF NEEDED when it comes to extreme clothing such as balaclavas and burqas and if someone wore a nazi t-shirt or extremely offensive t-shirt. I have not said anything to do with banning converse shoes or plain white t-shirts. So get a grip.

OK, so we should ban balaclavas (I must let my colleague know that he'll have to stop wearing his to keep his face from freezing when climbing radio towers in winter), burqas (because apparently that's the same as wearing a nazi t-shirt) and other things that you personally find offensive (why do you find burqas offensive?) while allowing anything that you personally find acceptable. I can't see any problem with framing legislation on that basis.

IngazZagni

bluewolf wrote: »

What?

Anyway it shouldn't be introduced at all, such a ban would be ridiculous.

What's not to get? Why wait for something to become an issue before you do something about it when you can prevent it from becoming a big issue in the first place? It's called forward thinking/planning, something this Country has been very poor at doing.