I am probably going to get slated for this but anyway

cram1971

Guys,

I live in Howth a place that needs tourists and visitors, but it is getting crazy with the amount of cyclists, cycling 2 and 3 abreast at 20kmph (if even for some of the newbies) going up the hill. the roads around the hill are tight and windy with not a lot of overtaking spots.

When a car comes up behind you please pull in as tight as possible to let us locals get by.

Thanks and happy cycling ...

AstraMonti

I guess it's seasonal...

Last week's thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71663321

cram1971

Sorry I see I posted this in the wrong section mods please move!

kona

cram1971 wrote: »

Guys,

I live in Howth a place that needs tourists and visitors, but it is getting crazy with the amount of cyclists, cycling 2 and 3 abreast at 20kmph (if even for some of the newbies) going up the hill. the roads around the hill are tight and windy with not a lot of overtaking spots.

When a car comes up behind you please pull in as tight as possible to let us locals get by.

Thanks and happy cycling ...

Please dont ride my ass either. But I agree, cyclists should try yield, however, there arnt many places to pull in, some in particular are narrow as cars park on the sides of the road.

cram1971

Not really asking anyone to stop as I appreciate loosing momentum going up a hill is a pain in the 'Ass'. Just get as tight to the curb as possible in single file

kona

cram1971 wrote: »

Not really asking anyone to stop as I appreciate loosing momentum going up a hill is a pain in the 'Ass'. Just get as tight to the curb as possible in single file

Thats dangerous for the cyclist, in fairness you can pass a cyclist thats maybe 3ft from the kerb safely on that road, maybe a wheel over the line, I drive and I cycle, Ive drove and cycled that road many times, it is possible, in general I think people give cyclists more berth than is needed, thats just my opinion.

A bit of give and take on both sides is needed, not the "get the **** out of my way" attitude.
Just as holding cars up in a group is ignorant, I think expecting cyclist to bail into the gutter to get out of your way is just as bad. Yes its irritating, and I totally get your point, but I do see both sides, which many dont.

Diarmuid

Please read the charter.

cram1971

Diarmuid wrote: »

Please read the charter.

What makes you think I didn't read the charter?

Jawgap

cram1971 wrote: »

Guys,

I live in Howth a place that needs tourists and visitors, but it is getting crazy with the amount of cyclists, cycling 2 and 3 abreast at 20kmph (if even for some of the newbies) going up the hill. the roads around the hill are tight and windy with not a lot of overtaking spots.

When a car comes up behind you please pull in as tight as possible to let us locals get by.

Thanks and happy cycling ...

Why?

I mean, I agree that cyclists shouldn't be cycling 3 breast, but why do you expect and request another road user to place themselves in a dangerous position (hard over to the left in the gutter) for your convenience? And why only in Howth?

All those cyclists don't just teleport in there. Should the people of Malahide, Portmarnock, Baldoyle, Sutton, Bayside etc not get the same consideration or is just Howth expected to benefit from a collective agreement to your request?

Inquitus

Like alot of people I cycle and drive, I will try and keep as far left as I can generally, but the curbside of alot of the roads in Dublin is not fit for either car or cyclist, one can't keep oneself close to the curb if the surface would belong more on the crater fields of moon than on a travelled road.

trad

We're going to have to build more hills on the northside.

bcmf

trad wrote: »

We're going to have to build more hills on the northside.

No.Never. We have enough hills thank you very much. In fact the hills we have we need to flatten for those of us who have an allergic reaction to hills.

too_sleepy

This is a difficult topic. Mainly because of the two abreast cycling. When out with a group I really like the feeling of safety in the large group, your so much more visible and cars never seem to mind waiting a few moments for an opportunity to overtake. They get passed a bunch of cyclists in one pass.

When out with one other cyclists I still like cycling two abreast but feel its more for enjoyment than safety. So I now try to go single file.

I suppose this isn't just about cars and bikes, how would cyclists feel stuck behind a horse carriage doing 8kmh?

It seems theres two issues, safety and conveniance. Cyclists slow cars down, we should try to accomodate cars but never for our own safety. I just cant ever cycle close to the curb, for one it's full of junk from the road. It leaves you nowhere to go if theres a bad hole ahead and it makes you less visible. years ago I read some report from a German university, the meat of it was you've got to get into the line of sight of the driver. Drivers simply do not look at curbes when they're driving.
I get into trouble a bit on the road, but I cycle a good metre into the road. I'm more visible, I've got some room on my left to move into if I have to, I don't get punctures.

Do cars give too much room when overtaking? I don't think so. I really appreciate when they give me plenty of room. Far too often a car has skimmed past me, so close I've been bumped. AND when this has happened I've usually corrected mself because I wasn't far enough away from the curb.
The driver sees me but reckons they can keep their line and drive past. Moving into the road the driver has to think and plan to overtake.

Stay Safe.

Leroy42

Cram,
I understand the point you are trying to make, but hiding it behind some bogus claim about tourists is pretty lame.

Why would this has any effect on tourism? Have France noticed a drop in numbers in the Alps, what about the Mont Ventoux region?

Why would tourists be in a such a hurry that (lets be extremely pessimistic here) a 1 minute delay will somehow have them blogging that Howth is a no go area!

Is you drive up behind a horse people slow down and wait, even having the courtesy to stay as calm and keep the engine noise down. Meet a cyclist however and it seems that the car driver believes it is their right to get by, the cyclists must move over.

If the road isn't wide enough to accomodate the increasing traffic level then bring it up with Dublin CC (or Fingal or whatever bunch of lunatics is in 'charge')

Next time please put a bit more effort into disguising your motives, my 6 month old could have come up with a better premise. You'll be telling us you know a 'friend' who doesn't like cyclists next:D

ThisRegard

If you got stuck behind a horse and carriage at that speed you're probably not going to mind too much, otherwise you do what a motorist can easily do to a cyclist, wait for a safe overtaking opportunity.

Straatvark

Leroy42 wrote: »

Cram,
I understand the point you are trying to make, but hiding it behind some bogus claim about tourists is pretty lame.

Why would this has any effect on tourism? Have France noticed a drop in numbers in the Alps, what about the Mont Ventoux region?

Why would tourists be in a such a hurry that (lets be extremely pessimistic here) a 1 minute delay will somehow have them blogging that Howth is a no go area!

Is you drive up behind a horse people slow down and wait, even having the courtesy to stay as calm and keep the engine noise down. Meet a cyclist however and it seems that the car driver believes it is their right to get by, the cyclists must move over.

If the road isn't wide enough to accomodate the increasing traffic level then bring it up with Dublin CC (or Fingal or whatever bunch of lunatics is in 'charge')

Next time please put a bit more effort into disguising your motives, my 6 month old could have come up with a better premise. You'll be telling us you know a 'friend' who doesn't like cyclists next:D

I read his post as the tourists that cycle to Howth.

Jawgap

Leroy42 wrote: »

Cram,
I understand the point you are trying to make, but hiding it behind some bogus claim about tourists is pretty lame.

Why would this has any effect on tourism? Have France noticed a drop in numbers in the Alps, what about the Mont Ventoux region?

Why would tourists be in a such a hurry that (lets be extremely pessimistic here) a 1 minute delay will somehow have them blogging that Howth is a no go area!

Is you drive up behind a horse people slow down and wait, even having the courtesy to stay as calm and keep the engine noise down. Meet a cyclist however and it seems that the car driver believes it is their right to get by, the cyclists must move over.

If the road isn't wide enough to accomodate the increasing traffic level then bring it up with Dublin CC (or Fingal or whatever bunch of lunatics is in 'charge')

Next time please put a bit more effort into disguising your motives, my 6 month old could have come up with a better premise. You'll be telling us you know a 'friend' who doesn't like cyclists next:D

I don't think the OP was worried about other tourists - I think the tourists and visitors being referred to were cyclists - in other words "Howth welcomes cyclists as long as you don't get in the way of the X5 drivers"

TinyExplosions

cram1971 wrote: »

What makes you think I didn't read the charter?

Because it entirely answers your question

A common complaint from motorists is of being held up by cyclists cycling in the middle of the road or cyclists cycling two abreast. Believe it or not, cyclists occasionally cycle like this purposefully, in order to protect themselves. There are situations where there is not enough room for a driver to safely overtake a cyclist. Dangerous drivers assume there is, accelerate past the cyclist, discover there is not enough room and pass too close to the cyclist, forcing them into the kerb. To prevent this sort of behaviour, a cyclist will 'take the lane'. That is, they will cycle in the middle of the lane until such time as it is safe for the motorist behind to pass. This is usually in the order of less than a minute, depending on road conditions, so perhaps bear this in mind and be patient.

TinyExplosions

cram1971 wrote: »

Guys,

I live in Howth a place that needs tourists and visitors, but it is getting crazy with the amount of cyclists, cycling 2 and 3 abreast at 20kmph (if even for some of the newbies) going up the hill. the roads around the hill are tight and windy with not a lot of overtaking spots.

When a car comes up behind you please pull in as tight as possible to let us locals get by.

Thanks and happy cycling ...

Hi cram1971, I am a tourist and a visitor and would very much like to go to Howth (as you say you need people like me). However, I cycle a bike, and so am wondering if I'm welcome to spend my touristy money there, or if I'm one of the nuisance cyclists you speak of...

TinyExplosions

And while I'm at it, when you in your car are going down either side of Howth Hill, could you please think of the cyclists who are being held up by your big, noisy, smelly cars and pull in so that our much faster moving selves can get by. I't just so inconsiderate for me to be nailing a descent, only to come up behind a car only going about 40, and then having the audacity to brake before a corner.... stupid motorists. What do I contribute to general taxation that goes to upkeep the road network for if you jerks are going to be going all slow downhill on them.

cram1971

I cannot believe how self rightous and presumtous some of these replies have been.

I do take the point of safety in numbers but if cyclists continue to cycle up and down Howth Hill the way some of them do there will be an accident.

Bye!

TinyExplosions

cram1971 wrote: »

I cannot believe how self rightous and presumtous some of these replies have been.

I do take the point of safety in numbers but if cyclists continue to cycle up and down Howth Hill the way some of them do there will be an accident.

Bye!

And I can't believe how self rightous and presumptuous your initial post was, so I guess we're finally on the same page....

stupid questions get stupid answers

Side Show Bob

TinyExplosions wrote: »

And I can't believe how self rightous and presumptuous your initial post was, so I guess we're finally on the same page....

stupid questions get stupid answers

I can only agree, you would never see a post like this in the UK or NI where they teach road manners to drivers at an early age, and by the way I have driven a HGV for a few years as a living, cyclists also have to be mannerly on the road, but they sont have noisey enginges and horns to to behave like idiots

trad

bcmf wrote: »

No.Never. We have enough hills thank you very much. In fact the hills we have we need to flatten for those of us who have an allergic reaction to hills.

What? You have Howth from Howth, Howth from Sutton, the hill up by the Mater Hospital and the one up by Omni. I have Bray Head on my way to work or else the mere pimple on the N11 up to Kilmacanogue.

Lumen

cram1971 wrote: »

I am probably going to get slated for this but anyway

He shoots....he scores!

tomasrojo

Trivial observation: the American spelling "curb" is used about four times as much as "kerb" in this thread.

I make no judgement. They're equally valid.

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

Trivial observation: the American spelling "curb" is used about four times as much as "kerb" in this thread.

I make no judgement. They're equally valid.

Curb your pedantry, please. :pac:

Gavin

Lumen wrote: »

Curb your pedantry, please. :pac:

Yeah, put the breaks on

ROK ON

Christ on a bike folks. Get over yourselves.
A person posts a request in polite fashion and gets the usual knee-jerk response from self righteous cyclists.
The request was just that, a request not a directive.
The OP was courteous and understanding IMHO.

You don't have to agree to his/her request. The OP was reasonable to ask for some consideration. Likewise you may consider or ignore such a plea.

That's all.

15lean

cram1971 wrote: »

I cannot believe how self rightous and presumtous some of these replies have been.

I do take the point of safety in numbers but if cyclists continue to cycle up and down Howth Hill the way some of them do there will be an accident.

Bye!

Idiot

Murph100

What a fantastic contribution on your 6th post, Mensa will be banging down your door.

15lean wrote: »

Idiot

Cookie_Monster

I hate cycling in groups for this exact reason. Large groups in my experience don't show enough courtesy and this leads to impatient motorists doing stupid dangerous things, and while it's the motorists fault if they do something stupid it's the cyclists who will always come off worse from any incidents

Chartsengrafs

OP,

The rain will be back soon enough so I'm guessing you'll see far fewer cyclists around .

(Sweet motor CM).

chakattack

trad wrote: »

What? You have the hill up by the Mater Hospital and the one up by Omni. I have Bray Head on my way to work or else the mere pimple on the N11 up to Kilmacanogue.

I heard they're using the savage climb by the omni centre for the national hill climb champs next year. :cool:

C3PO

I'm guessing that most posters here are motorists as well as cyclists? As a motorist I can relate to what the OP was saying - over the years I have often been held up unnecessarily (gratuitously?) by guys on bikes riding 2/3 abreast when single file riding would leave plenty of room for safe overtaking and cycling!

Murph100

+1 Its not rocket science, when driving or cycling, use your brain and dont act the pr1ck on the road.

RPL1 wrote: »

I'm guessing that most posters here are motorists as well as cyclists? As a motorist I can relate to what the OP was saying - over the years I have often been held up unnecessarily (gratuitously?) by guys on bikes riding 2/3 abreast when single file riding would leave plenty of room for safe overtaking and cycling!

setanta159

Cram wins the prize for WUM of the year so far, congrats .
What about the cyclists who live in Howth (most of my cycling buddies are from the village or live up on the head)? Maybe they should wear specially commissioned jerseys and get authorised passes to cycle 2 abreast in the middle of the road or alternatively when single file get an extra metre's leeway over the visiting cyclist! Are you local? You are my wife Dave

trad

Surely a large of cyclists should be treated by motorists the same as any other large slow moving vehicle, say a bus, overtake only when it's safe.

I think the problem here is an urban one. If this was in a rural area motorists would expect to meet tractors and combines and the like and allow for them.

dave.obrien

cram1971 wrote: »

Guys,

I live in Howth a place that needs tourists and visitors, but it is getting crazy with the amount of cyclists, cycling 2 and 3 abreast at 20kmph (if even for some of the newbies) going up the hill. the roads around the hill are tight and windy with not a lot of overtaking spots.

When a car comes up behind you please pull in as tight as possible to let us locals get by.

Thanks and happy cycling ...

Hi Cram, welcome.

I was cycling up Howth Hill last weekend, and was 2 abreast on an otherwise empty road. A driver, I presume a local, drove right up to my rear and beeped. We moved in slightly, and I waved the person around me, thinking that maybe they couldn't see as far up the empty road that I can, and hoping they would overtake in a manner that was courteous and legal, and that both of us law abiding road users would go on about our day with merriment.

No such luck.

The driver beeped again. And again. Then overtook at such close quarters that her bonnet hit my front wheel slightly. Not enough to knock me off my bike, but enough to be seriously risky driving, and very illegal. Now, what was the problem here? Was it that we were being inconsiderate? No, the road was empty, she had plenty of room to overtake in a safe manner. Was it that we were breaking the law? No, cyclists are allowed to go 2 abreast, and I am the type who would single out where it is safe for me and considerate to other road users to do so. Was it just that she doesn't like cyclists? Well, I dunno but...

Often the part of the road "as tight as possible to the kerb" is a pretty dangerous place for a cyclist, or any human being really. I rarely want to cycle there, nor should I. We don't hold you up for long, it'll only be another 30 seconds until you get to your tourists, don't worry, they'll still be arriving by the bus load.

You gave out about the presumptuous and arrogant nature of some of the responses; fair enough, some people react badly to ignorant questions.

Please have some consideration for the road users who are attracted to the area in which you happen to live. Please be aware that you, nor your collective neighbours, do not own Howth. You certainly do not own the roads. In fact, if you come upon a cyclist, struggling their way up the hill, bear in mind that they have right of way, and it is you that has to overtake them, not them that has to make way for you. Remember also that those cyclists are allowed to be 2 abreast, for their own safety, so that motorists don't force them into the dangerous zone at the edge of the road (our place on the road, incidentally, is the same as yours, even if you do live in Howth). Also bear in mind that many of these cyclists like to stop in Howth, where they might enjoy a coffee, or a cake, and often both. Given that we've come from foreign soils, like Malahide, Dun Laoghaire, or the supper exotic Ennis, does that make us your tourists?

Dave

PAULWATSON

Maybe this is only new to me. Recently I have seen that a lot of cyclists have taken to "doubling up" on the road. In other words they drive side by side and block the whole lane to following traffic.

Going down Howth hill yesterday and two daytrippers were side by side puffing the bit out on the way back up. Bit of a windy road, as a result about 10 vehicles were getting held up.

Lunacy.

goldencleric

You just walked into a world of abuse due to your ignorance

Joeyde

Hi Paul,

Its covered in the Charter sticky.

seamus

Known as riding "two abreast", there's nothing wrong with it.

In fact, on wider roads it can be advisable to ride two abreast rather than single file in order to force following traffic to overtake correctly.

In other cases, it is more appropriate to file in to allow space for traffic to overtake. Without being there, it would be impossible to determine if these cyclists were doing the right or wrong thing, though going uphill I would generally tend to file in because you're going that bit slower.

Captain Havoc

Threads merged

goldencleric

... its not luncay its just a safety precaution, although sometimes it is just handier to go single file so that BMW drivers don't have to waste an extra 30 seconds of their extremely busy and more important days

Raam

PAULWATSON wrote: »

Maybe this is only new to me. Recently I have seen that a lot of cyclists have taken to "doubling up" on the road. In other words they drive side by side and block the whole lane to following traffic.

Going down Howth hill yesterday and two daytrippers were side by side puffing the bit out on the way back up. Bit of a windy road, as a result about 10 vehicles were getting held up.

Lunacy.

Good trolling, Paul. You've been here before with the same kind of posts.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68587708&postcount=45

PAULWATSON wrote: »

hate to break the news to you, but drivers are sick to the back teeth with jumped up cyclists. Was out the other day and a couple were cycling two abreast taking up the whole lane, upwards of ten cars behind.

Get over yourselves.

cantalach

seamus wrote: »

Known as riding "two abreast", there's nothing wrong with it.

This is incorrect.

S.I. No. 182/1997 — Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997

47. (1) A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists, and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

Clearly, if you are cycling two abreast and holding up other vehicles, you are in breach of this regulation.

Just to clarify, I'm not taking sides with motorists who get slightly delayed. I'm just stating the facts as regards the legal position.

Beasty

cantalach wrote: »

Clearly, if you are cycling two abreast and holding up other vehicles, you are in breach of this regulation.

That's not what it says

It's referring to riding 3 abreast

tomasrojo

PAULWATSON wrote: »

Going down Howth hill yesterday and two daytrippers were side by side puffing the bit out on the way back up. Bit of a windy road, as a result about 10 vehicles were getting held up.

Lunacy.

Speaking in hyperbole is comely in nothing but love.

Beasty

OK guys, let's keep everything civil

Thanks

Beasty

cantalach

Beasty wrote: »

That's not what it says

It's referring to riding 3 abreast

No, it's not. You are mis-reading the sentence. This is understandable because it is clumsily worded. There is a subordinate clause in the middle of it which muddles it up and makes the key qualification at the end get lost. I have replaced the subordinate clause with ellipsis below and this makes the meaning much clearer. I an 100% sure that my reading is correct and I would encourage you to ask a friend with experience in parsing legal language to clarify this if you doubt me.

A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast [...] and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.