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Callers to my door.

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    #302
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    philologos wrote: »
    ....I don't know how God's foreknowledge works so out of pragmatism I would argue that it is our choice to believe. I may well be wrong....

    I don't understand this, would I be wrong in saying that you consider by definition that your god is omniscient? If so you know exactly how it's foreknowledge works. If instead you think we have contra causal free will namely against it's(your god) will then how do you reckon omnipotence or for that matter omniscience. Any ideas? Or is my logic false? If so how so?


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    #303
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    philologos wrote: »
    Faith saves. Works don't. Works follow from faith. At least in how I would see it.

    I would see it as works being a part of faith which in turn is a part of grace. If you have faith and do no works you have no faith, and so lose grace.


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    #304
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I don't understand this, would I be wrong in saying that you consider by definition that your god is omniscient? If so you know exactly how it's foreknowledge works. If instead you think we have contra causal free will namely against it's(your god) will then how do you reckon omnipotence or for that matter omniscience. Any ideas? Or is my logic false? If so how so?

    I think God can know every single permutation we can take. What I am unsure of is the degree of free will we exercise in becoming Christians. Is it preordained by God that I should believe in Him now, or is it by my own decision that I have become a Christian. Perhaps it was my own decision, but God knew that it was going to happen at the same time. I think this is reasonable, but I cannot know 100% for sure that it is the case. It is a complex issue and I've always regarded it as such.

    Festus - I think our understanding is similar, but I think that works follow on from faith, whereas you believe that works are concurrent with faith.


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    #305
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    philologos wrote: »

    I personally believe that one has to believe in Christ to be saved.

    You would be in disagreement with Christ there. John 5:24-30
    Unless you mean those who have not heard of Him, not heard His words, and have never meet a Christian or read any Christian materiel.


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    #306
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    How about John 14:6, or 1 John 2:13? Both say that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Indeed John chapter 10 says this also.


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    #307
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    PDN wrote: »
    Either way, the baby hasn't heard of Chriist - has it? Or is the baby to be punished for the 'sins' of its fathers?

    The baby hasn't heard of Christ which is true.
    But the parents of that baby are aware of Jesus Christ and has chosen not to baptise the child.

    The old RCC doctrine was that such babies when they died went to Limbo.
    I understand that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have since stated that these babies are saved and enter heaven.


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    #308
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    philologos wrote: »
    I think God can know every single permutation we can take. What I am unsure of is the degree of free will we exercise in becoming Christians. Is it preordained by God that I should believe in Him now, or is it by my own decision that I have become a Christian. Perhaps it was my own decision, but God knew that it was going to happen at the same time. I think this is reasonable, but I cannot know 100% for sure that it is the case. It is a complex issue and I've always regarded it as such.

    So you do believe in contra causal free will? Therefore conflicting with the concept of an omniscient deity. That is to say you were able to choose a course of action that completely goes against the deities expectation meaning he's not omniscient i.e. lacking in knowledge. The deity caused something ultimately but you caused something else and I find it hard to believe you have the resources to be omnipotent.


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    #309
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,115 ✭✭✭homer911


    Festus wrote: »
    Can't see why the sig might offend any other than sinners but I have taken your borderline back seat modding on board and amended accordingly.

    Well at least its not in our faces now - I guess its a matter for PDN as you are comparing him to a Pharisee - admitedly a role which you had reminded me of a while back..


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    #310
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    philologos wrote: »
    How about John 14:6, or 1 John 2:13? Both say that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Indeed John chapter 10 says this also.

    You may have a different Bible for 1 John 2:13
    [13] I write unto you, fathers, because you have known him, who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one.

    Your point is ?

    Jesus is the only way. For those that do not believe in Him because they never knew Him, never heard of Him, were never told of Him that still stands. Jesus will decide.

    Those that have heard and refuse to believe make their own choice.


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    #311
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    So you do believe in contra causal free will? Therefore conflicting with the concept of an omniscient deity. That is to say you were able to choose a course of action that completely goes against the deities expectation meaning he's not omniscient i.e. lacking in knowledge. The deity caused something ultimately but you caused something else and I find it hard to believe you have the resources to be omnipotent.

    My post states uncertainty. I don't know how it works and I may not know exactly how it works until I die.

    Apologies Festus, verse 23 in chapter 2 of 1st John.


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    #312
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    So you do believe in contra causal free will? Therefore conflicting with the concept of an omniscient deity. That is to say you were able to choose a course of action that completely goes against the deities expectation meaning he's not omniscient i.e. lacking in knowledge. The deity caused something ultimately but you caused something else and I find it hard to believe you have the resources to be omnipotent.

    Can you define contra-causal free will please?

    I can't see why God's omniscience and our fee will are incompatible. Why do you understand that our free will automatically undercuts God's knowledge? But we have had this debate before; and Wicknight, antiskeptic, Morbert, PDN, The Artist Formerly Know as Jackass and myself (to name a few) have gone at it hammer and tongs without any resolution.


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    #313
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Festus wrote: »
    Not really. Antisceptik is essentially arguing sola labora. If you say to him that faith and works are required he ignores faith and says "see - works are required".

    It doesn't matter how many componants go into making up the mechanism if, for want of the componant of work the mechanism fails to operate.

    Irrespective of what God does to bridge 98% of the gap between you and your salvation, your salvation still hinges on your performance.

    Which is still a works-salvation.


    If that were true then many handicapped and injured cannot be saved if they cannot do works. for example. Children who die before they can do work are equally not saved. for example.

    They can't express faith either. So cannot be saved by a faith+works salvation it would seem.

    Works are required of ALL Christians capable of it. Christ died for us. We must accept that (believe, faith), be baptised, keep the commandments and do His will.

    I don't know where antiskeptic gets his ideas from. Probably conspiracy websites.

    Nope. You've pretty much clarified Roman Catholicism a works-salvation right here and now. Notwithstanding Gods input and the input of your parents, you must work.


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    #314
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Festus wrote: »
    I would see it as works being a part of faith which in turn is a part of grace. If you have faith and do no works you have no faith, and so lose grace.

    Could you run this one by me again?

    "If you have faith...". Let's suppose the IF condition is fulfilled and I have faith.

    "...and do no works.." Let's suppose the AND condition is fulfilled and I do no works.

    Summation so far: I have faith and I do no works. So far so logical



    Suddenly I have no faith. I had it but now it's gone. Why is something I had gone? Was it removed from me because I did no work? And if faith is = to believing Jesus died for me, why would my not doing work suddenly make me not believe that Jesus died for me?


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    #315
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Can you define contra-causal free will please?

    I can't see why God's omniscience and our fee will are incompatible. Why do you understand that our free will automatically undercuts God's knowledge? But we have had this debate before; and Wicknight, antiskeptic, Morbert, PDN, The Artist Formerly Know as Jackass and myself (to name a few) have gone at it hammer and tongs without any resolution.

    Contra-causal free described and it's difficulties for the concept's existence. I'm not the first and probably not the last to show clearly the contradiction between omniscience and free will. I'm forced to wonder are you actually not able to see it or do you refuse to see it? I'm probably wasting my time.


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    #316
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    homer911 wrote: »
    Well at least its not in our faces now - I guess its a matter for PDN as you are comparing him to a Pharisee - admitedly a role which you had reminded me of a while back..

    Anyone who can look down his nose and sneer at a prostitute is worse than Pharisee in my book.

    The vast majority are trafficed, co-erced, beaten and raped, held under threat and God knows what else. Many become prostitutes following abuse by their fathers or other family members. Others through drug abuse and addiction Frequently forced drug addiction. It is for many their only escape from abject destitution.
    True there may be some who do it out of choice but they are few and far between. The majority are victims.

    PDN's words incensed me. If his words are a true reflection of his attitude towards prostitutes, never mind seeing it as a fit way to attack the Catholic Church, I have difficulty in considering him human, never mind Christian.


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    #317
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Contra-causal free described and it's difficulties for existence. I'm not the first and probably not the last to show clearly the contradiction between omniscience and free will. I'm forced to wonder are you actually not able to see it or do you refuse to see it? I'm probably wasting my time.

    I don't see why you would be wasting your time, I've acknowledged fully that it is extremely difficult to me.


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    #318
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Could you run this one by me again?

    "If you have faith...". Let's suppose the IF condition is fulfilled and I have faith.

    "...and do no works.." Let's suppose the AND condition is fulfilled and I do no works.

    Summation so far: I have faith and I do no works. So far so logical



    Suddenly I have no faith. I had it but now it's gone. Why is something I had gone? Was it removed from me because I did no work? And if faith is = to believing Jesus died for me, why would my not doing work suddenly make me not believe that Jesus died for me?

    It would be a false faith. A bit like the false gospel you follw


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    #319
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Festus wrote: »
    If circumcision of Jews is performed at eight days should not the baptism of Christians not also be allowed to happen at a similar age of the parents so decide?

    Another example for you hinault.

    The Protestant argument holds that Old Covenent practices happening in the physical, such as: repetitious sacrifice and the eating of same, priests as intercessors between God and man, physical buildings as holy places in which God dwells .. are motifs for the larger, spiritual picture. A picture that see's Christ the sacrifice, Christ as High Priest and intercessor between God and man, Christians as forming the blocks in the building in which God dwells.

    Roman Catholicism has merely replaced the OT physical ordinances with similar physical ordinances. They had no salvation power in OT times. They have no salvation power now. The motif used to illustrate the message has been made the message.


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    #320
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Festus wrote: »
    It would be a false faith.

    So how then do I go on to lose the grace that precedes this false faith.

    How can grace produce false faith?


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    #321
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Contra-causal free described and it's difficulties for the concept's existence. I'm not the first and probably not the last to show clearly the contradiction between omniscience and free will. I'm forced to wonder are you actually not able to see it or do you refuse to see it? I'm probably wasting my time.

    Well, given that this is our first exchange you actually haven't shown me anything. All you did was respond to a request to define contra-causal free will and then state that there was a contradiction.


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    #322
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    So how then do I go on to lose the grace that precedes this false faith.

    How can grace produce false faith?

    If you had true faith you would hear His words and understand them.

    Are you sure you have grace?


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    #323
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Another example for you hinault.

    The Protestant argument holds that Old Covenent practices happening in the physical, such as: repetitious sacrifice and the eating of same, priests as intercessors between God and man, physical buildings as holy places in which God dwells .. are motifs for the larger, spiritual picture. A picture that see's Christ the sacrifice, Christ as High Priest and intercessor between God and man, Christians as forming the blocks in the building in which God dwells.

    Roman Catholicism has merely replaced the OT physical ordinances with similar physical ordinances. They had no salvation power in OT times. They have no salvation power now. The motif used to illustrate the message has been made the message.

    I think your confusion is spreading ;)


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    #324
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Festus wrote: »
    If you had true faith you would hear His words and understand them.

    Are you sure you have grace?

    Please don't do a Donatello and slither sideways away from your statements being probed for coherancy.

    -

    You were saying I would lose grace. What did this grace produce if not the false faith that didn't produce any works?


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    #325
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Please don't do a Donatello and slither sideways away from your statements being probed for coherancy.

    -

    You were saying I would lose grace. What did this grace produce if not the false faith that didn't produce any works?

    That's not what I said. I said are you sure you have grace?


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    #326
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Well, given that this is our first exchange you actually haven't shown me anything. All you did was respond to a request to define contra-causal free will and then state that there was a contradiction.

    Outlined here.

    Edit this is thread right? You can look at what I wrote?


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    #327
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Festus wrote: »
    Anyone who can look down his nose and sneer at a prostitute is worse than Pharisee in my book.

    The vast majority are trafficed, co-erced, beaten and raped, held under threat and God knows what else. Many become prostitutes following abuse by their fathers or other family members. Others through drug abuse and addiction Frequently forced drug addiction. It is for many their only escape from abject destitution.
    True there may be some who do it out of choice but they are few and far between. The majority are victims.

    PDN's words incensed me. If his words are a true reflection of his attitude towards prostitutes, never mind seeing it as a fit way to attack the Catholic Church, I have difficulty in considering him human, never mind Christian.

    It seems your ineptitude on the subject of context is not just when it comes to the bible.


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    #328
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Festus wrote: »
    That's not what I said.

    That is what you said
    I would see it as works being a part of faith which in turn is a part of grace. If you have faith(1) and do no works(2) you have no faith(3), and so lose grace(4).

    We supposed I had faith(1) but did no work(2). You said that in that case my faith(1) was a false faith. Which is presumably how you arrive at my having no faith(3). No faith = false faith.

    As a result I lose grace. But I must have the grace to lose it. So my question is: what does this grace produce whilst I have it and before I lose it?

    I said are you sure you have grace?

    My question concerns the time when I (or anyone else who had it) had it.


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    #329
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    JimiTime wrote: »
    It seems your ineptitude on the subject of context is not just when it comes to the bible.


    Steeeeehhhh-dy Jimi.

    :)


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    #330
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,115 ✭✭✭homer911


    Festus wrote: »
    PDN's words incensed me. If his words are a true reflection of his attitude towards prostitutes, never mind seeing it as a fit way to attack the Catholic Church, I have difficulty in considering him human, never mind Christian.

    How about one of the ultimate christian expressions - forgiveness

    There are times when I disagree with PDN as well (I'm not an Arsenal fan!) - but there's no point in getting angry about it and holding it against him


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    #331
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Contra-causal free described and it's difficulties for the concept's existence. I'm not the first and probably not the last to show clearly the contradiction between omniscience and free will. I'm forced to wonder are you actually not able to see it or do you refuse to see it? I'm probably wasting my time.

    You define a contra-causal free will as being able to act contra the expectation of a deity. This would certainly appear to mean the deity cannot be omniscient.

    But a contra-causal free will isn't the only kind of freewill possible. Other models of freewill could accomodate an omniscient deity.


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