Why are you Hiding

shannon_tek

So yes i know that this stuff is not the easiest and can be quiet tricky. First of all i would like to point out im all for gays. and done some stuff in myself.

Recently i was browsing my facebook and came across a photo of too lads making out. this actually fascinated me. Why im still sorting that one out myself a month later. I have a few gay friends and know tons online. But i have never met or hung around with any. Now maybe there in school and stuff and i just dont know bout it. Not that im going to freak out of anything. But if i saw a gay couple making out in front of me. I seriously dont know how im to react. Ive tried to think it over and over and have asked the question to loads of my friends who all have different opinions about how they react. But im 18 growing up in a society were i suppose you can say its only getting off the ground. I just hope when my kids grow up that nobody will give too fudge sticks if your gay, st8 or a fecking alien. I Still cant get used to the fact guys wearing pink mind boggling. Tried it out for a day i was like self conscience thought everyone was staring at me.

Think ive gone off the point now. But my problem is, So many gays cant come out cause of the reaction. Yes its fooking brilliant when you read the stories were the said it and everything is brilliant. but there are still so many out there who are just so secretive. These LGBT clubs or meeting. I know there for those people. and possibly me. but its like too different worlds apart. How can i possible get used to a society when their segregated away from the likes of me who want to understand . welcome and live with them. Its cruel how its like a unhuman to be known as gay. Im not gay but in my town i honestly have to say i still have to meet someone whos gay. proud to be out and bring 200 more with you. Form my point of view, You need to be out there showing people telling people making them live with the fact this is it please live with it. but i know that cant happen cause there are people out there who just want you dead. Sickend. Anyway im going to reread this change it a bit and if it causes too much trouble remove it. I hope you see my point. That its just not involved in my life to help me to understand. and i think thats what the people need.

Just re-reading it there, Sounds like im refering gays are something else. sorry if you pick it up as a misunderstanding.

Aishae

those clubs arent just for people who are unsure of the sexuality or in the closet - there are groups for people specifically with those backgrounds though - the lubs arent really any different to any other social club. you get to meet up with people with the same sexuality background as you. they might have the same experiences and you can chat about that. or go do fun things with people who dont care if youre gay (drinks, bowling, hillwalking - whatever they chose to organise)

its not like an elite secret club - that makes me think of the illuminati or something.... most of us who do go to clubs like that will have different levels of how openly gay they are or arent.
some are very open about it in that they dont try to hide it if something comes up.
others will just not mention the sexuality in those situations because as ive learned recently myself, there is still a LOT of negativity out there. i myself was called an attention seeker just because im lesbian - because that person (and some agreed!) felt that gayness was rubbed in their faces - with gays making out, wearing loud clothes and pride marches. which is just stupid.. but thats what prevents some gays from openly expressing their sexuality.

although there is another angle you could look at... a lot of gays are like anyone else - who is straight or bi etc. Straight people dont come out as straight (its assumed), they just get on with life and their clothing however mad it looks is not considered a mark of straightness. in a nutshell, many LGBT people just get on with life and it may not appear any different to peple - apart from a partner of the same sex. i hope people understand where im going with that throught train.

shannon_tek

Aishae wrote: »

those clubs arent just for people who are unsure of the sexuality or in the closet - there are groups for people specifically with those backgrounds though - the lubs arent really any different to any other social club. you get to meet up with people with the same sexuality background as you. they might have the same experiences and you can chat about that. or go do fun things with people who dont care if youre gay (drinks, bowling, hillwalking - whatever they chose to organise)

its not like an elite secret club - that makes me think of the illuminati or something.... most of us who do go to clubs like that will have different levels of how openly gay they are or arent.
some are very open about it in that they dont try to hide it if something comes up.
others will just not mention the sexuality in those situations because as ive learned recently myself, there is still a LOT of negativity out there. i myself was called an attention seeker just because im lesbian - because that person (and some agreed!) felt that gayness was rubbed in their faces - with gays making out, wearing loud clothes and pride marches. which is just stupid.. but thats what prevents some gays from openly expressing their sexuality.

although there is another angle you could look at... a lot of gays are like anyone else - who is straight or bi etc. Straight people dont come out as straight (its assumed), they just get on with life and their clothing however mad it looks is not considered a mark of straightness. in a nutshell, many LGBT people just get on with life and it may not appear any different to peple - apart from a partner of the same sex. i hope people understand where im going with that throught train.

Thanks for reply. Ya i know its not an elite club. ha ha. But like could someone like myself go and meet them. its like why only express yourself to the same sexuality people as yourself. Like i i think it should be widely brought into schools to be able to accept it.

Being called an attention seeker. something i know someone would say. But thats all in the mind, They just dont want to believe and thats what makes me sick not that they refuse to believe but the fact that they had to make an excuse for their own problem. No. Like can you explain this to me. Their is this sterotypical image on gays, and im sorry to say i can only blame themselves, actually makes me ashamed(from time i was unsure) but that guys act unnormal, which leads to them getting picked on. myself i could go out and be gay. but its not going to change the way i walk, talk, or move my hand but if seen so many just ..... i dunno i cant wrap my head round it. im just thinking there of a child getting picked on because they have a high pitched voice or the way they walk. instantly their classified as gay. weather they grow up to be or not i dunno. but thats not what gay is. and 95% of people presume it is only because its sterotyped. makes me angry. because its all in the mind. ............

Aishae

accepting lgbt and straight in the club - that would just be a normal 'club' if you see what i mean. whereas the lgbt club is for likeminded people - who can share experiences etc. which wouldnt be possible in a regular social club because the majority in a club like that are straight and a lot of straight people wont want to chat about being gay. It's no unlike the way there are gay bars (they arent gay-only places) but the idea is that there is somewhere for lgbt to congregate without feeling they'll get a thump for trying to chat someone up (who turns out to be straight).
i agree though - that there should be greater education on homosexuality in schools. in their health classes in secondary school or it whatever class they usually teach about life things.
and the school councellor should have some training in dealing with students who need someone to talk to about things.
- but that stuff is a different matter to clubs.

Plenty of gay people go to regular social events - clubs like GAA stuff, regular night spots etc. but you dont tend to notice them unless theyre what people might call 'acting gay'

its true that gay is very stereotyped - the butch lesbian, the fashionably high pitched, sparkly pink gay bloke etc. there are gay people like that but there are straight people like that too. perhaps the reason for the stereotype is that people like that are more noticeable.

shannon_tek

Aishae wrote: »

accepting lgbt and straight in the club - that would just be a normal 'club' if you see what i mean. whereas the lgbt club is for likeminded people - who can share experiences etc. which wouldnt be possible in a regular social club because the majority in a club like that are straight and a lot of straight people wont want to chat about being gay. It's no unlike the way there are gay bars (they arent gay-only places) but the idea is that there is somewhere for lgbt to congregate without feeling they'll get a thump for trying to chat someone up (who turns out to be straight).
i agree though - that there should be greater education on homosexuality in schools. in their health classes in secondary school or it whatever class they usually teach about life things.
and the school councellor should have some training in dealing with students who need someone to talk to about things.
- but that stuff is a different matter to clubs.

Plenty of gay people go to regular social events - clubs like GAA stuff, regular night spots etc. but you dont tend to notice them unless theyre what people might call 'acting gay'

its true that gay is very stereotyped - the butch lesbian, the fashionably high pitched, sparkly pink gay bloke etc. there are gay people like that but there are straight people like that too. perhaps the reason for the stereotype is that people like that are more noticeable.

I see. better go back to being bi so. ha ha. Thats just the problem there where its impossible to be in a room with over 50% straight. Thanks. say it will be a long time before i can finally wrap my head round it. But ya cant honestly blame me for not understanding if im not used to something new. and i think its what most would be thinking

Aishae

naw, ask questions or for advice here - theyre great at it. also there are links to sites about it in posts at the top of this forum, not just for help for gay people. but people who are confused about it too

Sir Ophiuchus

Unfortunately the only reliable way to educate people, in my experience, is one at a time, over a decent period of knowing them.

Should schools integrate LGBT identities into, say, the SPHE programme or whatever they're calling it now? Definitely.

Should LGBT stuff be discussed in school talks on sex, etc. Yes, in an age-appropriate manner.

Are those things happening? Unfortunately not.

On the other hand, there are people like you, shannon_tek, who go out of their way to learn and educate themselves about things they don't know about, which is brilliant, and fair play to you. So keep on asking questions here and maybe you'll be able to inform and educate other people in the future as well.

baby and crumble

Well, chances are OP you know loads of gay people. You just might not know you do.

For example, I class myself as 100% 'out'. But unfortunately the day I came out they'd run out of the neon signs... Just kidding. But you see what I mean. I'm not hiding, in any way. Anyone who talks to me for any length of time will come to know I'm gay, simply because I can't go terribly long without mentioned my other half...

But, if you me in the street, in a coffee shop, some people might think I'm gay, but most will assume I'm straight, simply because odds are I will be- whatever the latest figures are of percentages of gay people are... you know?

As for clubs etc... I don't think that that's 'hiding', so much as (like Aishae said) going somewhere where it's unlikely you'll get punched in the face or have a negative reaction to offering to buy someone you fancy a drink...or that you won't get weird looks if you kiss your partner. For a lot of gay people, that knowledge is something of a a relief.

When it comes to visibility, it's a weird thing, because the people who would do most good by being visible, are the very people that don't be visible, because it's not their style... you know what I mean?

Chuchoter

I think to class clubs and bars and stuff as 'hiding' is kind of misunderstanding their purpose. I remember talking about this with a friend and she was like there are no straight clubs or straight pride or anything, but thats because everywhere is a straight club. Everyone assumes you're straight, you can assume all the people you like are straight and so on and so forth. If you're gay and the likelihood the person you like is gay too is really, really small its a lot easier to meet someone if you're somewhere where you know everyone else is too.

I would consider what I do as hiding however. I'm nearly the same age as you and you can be guaranteed there are loads of people in your school (assuming you're in secondary here) like me. I'm out to my parents and one or two friends. If it weren't for one friend outing me to certain people (and then not bothering to tell me...anywho) everyone would think I was straight. To be honest, I think I'll really miss getting to 'be straight'. I'll miss being able to play along with my friends conversations about stuff, I'll miss them not reading everything I do as me hitting on them and I'll basically just miss not being 'the gay one', which thanks to aforementioned friend I'm slowly becoming.

baby and crumble

@crayola- I thought I'd be the same as you, I remember 6th year, not telling any of my friends about being gay... (I was in boarding school- can you say awkward???!??!??) and I thought they'd all change, but tbh, nothing is different. they talk about guys, I talk about girls. After about 20 you stop all that and you just become a person. Does that make any sense?

shannon_tek

crayolastereo wrote: »

I would consider what I do as hiding however. I'm nearly the same age as you and you can be guaranteed there are loads of people in your school (assuming you're in secondary here) like me. I'm out to my parents and one or two friends. If it weren't for one friend outing me to certain people (and then not bothering to tell me...anywho) everyone would think I was straight. To be honest, I think I'll really miss getting to 'be straight'. I'll miss being able to play along with my friends conversations about stuff, I'll miss them not reading everything I do as me hitting on them and I'll basically just miss not being 'the gay one', which thanks to aforementioned friend I'm slowly becoming.

Ya im im secondary school . and ya i think i can spot one or two. but like i cant be sure. but if they were why so secretive. like would secondary school be the right place to let your friends class mates get used to it. Like the way i look at it how many people think im gay. lol. but ya i told my dad i was bi(at the time) he was certianly grand with it. i have done stuffs. but like only recently its just got me questioning all this. Not my sexuality. but how its just not seen. like there are marches, but i think they drive people away cause its all in your face stuff. i never attented one and dont think i will be. i want to learn bout it as normal civilized person face to face . taking it easy you know.

deirdre_dub

shannon_tek - I want to start by echoing what has already been said about your eagerness to help fix this problem. It is quite moving - thank you.

You've written about the problems that LGBT people have in coming out of the closet. It can be a terribly scary experience - hence LGBT people simply need safe spaces. At present, most of those safe spaces are gay bars, LGBT clubs, pride marches etc. In the U.S., they have these things called "gay-straight alliance clubs" - you can read about them here on wikipedia. I think those clubs are the next step in safe spaces. And, of course, they help solve the problems you've mentioned about straight people not having much exposure to gay people.

Such clubs, obviously, need supportive straight people to work. So the big big question is - are there enough supportive straight people to make it work? I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but maybe it is a question you could start asking your friends?

I hope to see those clubs, or something like them, in Ireland in the future. Hopefully those clubs will then eventually get rid of the need for safe spaces altogether.

Again, many thanks for your concern.

shannon_tek

deirdre_dub wrote: »

shannon_tek - I want to start by echoing what has already been said about your eagerness to help fix this problem. It is quite moving - thank you.

You've written about the problems that LGBT people have in coming out of the closet. It can be a terribly scary experience - hence LGBT people simply need safe spaces. At present, most of those safe spaces are gay bars, LGBT clubs, pride marches etc. In the U.S., they have these things called "gay-straight alliance clubs" - you can read about them here on wikipedia. I think those clubs are the next step in safe spaces. And, of course, they help solve the problems you've mentioned about straight people not having much exposure to gay people.

Such clubs, obviously, need supportive straight people to work. So the big big question is - are there enough supportive straight people to make it work? I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but maybe it is a question you could start asking your friends?

I hope to see those clubs, or something like them, in Ireland in the future. Hopefully those clubs will then eventually get rid of the need for safe spaces altogether.

Again, many thanks for your concern.

Thanks Deirdre. It is such a shame to no that you just cant mix. Like what lead me to all this was when i over heard another student saying how they couldnt stand gays. which sort of made me angry because. they are younger than me and if im brought up in it clearly so have they. Then when i asked the question what would you do if you saw too guys making out in front of you. The response was mixed. over 50% of the people i asked were ok with it. but the odd one or too said they would walk away. and i just ..... Its a very hard matter to understand in the mind. how people younger than me. still have not been exposed to it all. Thats the time to strike. Young. ha ha . But ya as you say about those gay-straight alliance clubs would be lovely to see them. might be awhile. but better late than never.

Just like to sat thanks to everyone for their feedback. its very helpful thank you.

shannon_tek

Just thinking there, there is no mention of being gay and proud in my school. Is there any in other schools around the country.

Chuchoter

I've heard of some huge schools (like 1-2000 people) having GSA type ideas at least for TY. My school is really, really not into gay people but apparently we have a lot of lesbians/bisexuals in third year :P

Sir Ophiuchus

shannon_tek wrote: »

Thanks Deirdre. It is such a shame to no that you just cant mix. Like what lead me to all this was when i over heard another student saying how they couldnt stand gays. which sort of made me angry because. they are younger than me and if im brought up in it clearly so have they.

Once you're out of school, it'll be much easier to see and notice gay people in everyday life. Apart from anything else, some of the people you're in school with will probably come out once they're in college.

shannon_tek

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

Once you're out of school, it'll be much easier to see and notice gay people in everyday life. Apart from anything else, some of the people you're in school with will probably come out once they're in college.

Ya i suppose. but like i may not be going to college. so like its still going to be hard to mix and see it. If i cant see it now. im sure the whole atmosphere is totally different in college compared to my school of what 500.

Sir Ophiuchus

shannon_tek wrote: »

Ya i suppose. but like i may not be going to college. so like its still going to be hard to mix and see it. If i cant see it now. im sure the whole atmosphere is totally different in college compared to my school of what 500.

Well, I really mean that most people don't come out in school, they wait till a year or two afterwards. You'll see a lot more gay people in your day-to-day life and circles of acquaintances after you leave school.

Aoifums

shannon_tek wrote: »

Ya im im secondary school . and ya i think i can spot one or two. but like i cant be sure. but if they were why so secretive. like would secondary school be the right place to let your friends class mates get used to it.

This is why:

shannon_tek wrote: »

Thanks Deirdre. It is such a shame to no that you just cant mix. Like what lead me to all this was when i over heard another student saying how they couldnt stand gays. which sort of made me angry because. they are younger than me and if im brought up in it clearly so have they. Then when i asked the question what would you do if you saw too guys making out in front of you. The response was mixed. over 50% of the people i asked were ok with it. but the odd one or too said they would walk away. and i just ..... Its a very hard matter to understand in the mind. how people younger than me. still have not been exposed to it all. Thats the time to strike.

I think it would be deadly if more people came out. But the idiots are always louder than the sane people. I don't think most people have a problem with anyone being gay but the ones who do are more in your face.

shannon_tek wrote: »

Just thinking there, there is no mention of being gay and proud in my school. Is there any in other schools around the country.

Nope. Unless you count the "homosexuality is an abomination" type ****e religion teachers come out with. Have you done RSE(relationship and sexuality education)? Apparently it's meant to be meantioned but since we only got 6 weeks of that course it never was. My Biology teacher meantions it from time to time but that doesn't really count.

shannon_tek

Aoifums wrote: »

Nope. Unless you count the "homosexuality is an abomination" type ****e religion teachers come out with. Have you done RSE(relationship and sexuality education)? Apparently it's meant to be meantioned but since we only got 6 weeks of that course it never was. My Biology teacher meantions it from time to time but that doesn't really count.

Ya i tend to not take part in religion so i dont know what happens. but i havent taken part in RSE. never heard of it either. its just not mentioned in the school. unless they bring it in for the 1st years but not for the 5yrs ive been going.

Killer_banana

Sir Ophiuchus wrote:

Well, I really mean that most people don't come out in school

I agree that a lot of people don't come out in school but even if they do they may not be visible. I came out as bi when I was fifteen. My friends knew and if anyone else had asked me my sexuality they would have known too. But no-one did so almost everyone thought I was straight because they just assumed.

shannon_tek wrote:

Just thinking there, there is no mention of being gay and proud in my school. Is there any in other schools around the country.

Was none in mine but there no mention of sex at all except for biology. Of course up until a year ago SPHE was taught by a nun so that might have something to do with it...

Aishae

in secondary school - sex ed and related biology issues (periods, relationships) was in religion class. how stupid was that for an arrangement?! this was on the surface a modern school. and it was a good school. but teaching stuff like this in RE seemed stupid to me even at the time. of course there was no mention of homosexuality. and the teacher didnt go into detail about contraception and the like.
its stupid because the education on these matters is gonna be heavily influenced by the religion (catholic in this case) if taught in RE class.

im not surprised there were no openly gay folks in my school. part of the reason would be that teen years are often the first time we question our sexuality so we arent gonna come out till were sure.

as good as my school was - it was plainly heavily influenced by catholic beliefs - even our guidance councellor was also an RE teacher for flips sake...
and thats not an environment productive to helping young people with sexuality turmoil.
the thing is, I reckon if i had sought help - not for the councellor but from a trusted teacher - theyd hve veeb good about it. they wouldnt be able to help me much but theyd have been a sounding board. however, an environment such as this makes you feel you cannot do this because:
*you feel you wont be taken seriously or
*you worry it'd be around the school in no time
*you worry about being disciplined for it even if it IS 2011
and so - there are many reasons

Chuchoter

We did have SPHE at junior cycle but it was all smoking and drinking and very basic biology. We had another TY module that was like SPHE but the thing is, there doesn't seem to be any actual training for sphe teachers in more or less anything beyond puberty. Its a joke for straight teenagers, let alone gay ones. I mean the only time anything gay related has ever come up in an RSE type thing is in that module last year that was all total bull**** and this year with my biology teacher, who although is my favorite teacher, she doesn't seem to know the about the whole LGBT thing and she shouldn't have to. She's not an SPHE teacher and shoving that sort of thing into other subjects like biology and religion is ridiculous. Its such a shame we don't have a thorough, inclusive SPHE program all the way up to 6th year, because it would be so useful.

In terms of telling teachers, they'd most likely tell your parents and you could well be disciplined. I know there was a third year who had a girlfriend in the school and they got in trouble over it.

diddlybit

crayolastereo wrote: »

In terms of telling teachers, they'd most likely tell your parents and you could well be disciplined. I know there was a third year who had a girlfriend in the school and they got in trouble over it.

I probably shouldn't be shocked at this, but I am. This is just completely ludicrous. Even if a pupil does come out to a member of the teaching staff, how dare they tell anyone else, especially somebody's parents. And getting in trouble for being gay?!? I can just imagine it now.

"Have six detentions and watch these rom-coms to learn the errors of your ways. See those gender roles, that's what you should be doing. See all those women pining after Prince Charming, because there is not way they can be fufilled without a man, you need to realise that. There you go, have we un-gayed you?" :rolleyes:

Chuchoter

diddlybit wrote: »

I probably shouldn't be shocked at this, but I am. This is just completely ludicrous. Even if a pupil does come out to a member of the teaching staff, how dare they tell anyone else, especially somebody's parents. And getting in trouble for being gay?!? I can just imagine it now.

"Have six detentions and watch these rom-coms to learn the errors of your ways. See those gender roles, that's what you should be doing. See all those women pining after Prince Charming, because there is not way they can be fufilled without a man, you need to realise that. There you go, have we un-gayed you?" :rolleyes:

I don't think they told any teachers, they were caught kissing in the bathroom or something, but it wasn't anything you don't see straight couples at in public. I don't know what the punishment was but I know it didn't just blow over

diddlybit

crayolastereo wrote: »

I don't think they told any teachers, they were caught kissing in the bathroom or something, but it wasn't anything you don't see straight couples at in public. I don't know what the punishment was but I know it didn't just blow over

That's just awful. No wonder so few come out in school if that is the type of treatment that they are to expect.

shannon_tek

crayolastereo wrote: »

I don't think they told any teachers, they were caught kissing in the bathroom or something, but it wasn't anything you don't see straight couples at in public. I don't know what the punishment was but I know it didn't just blow over

That actually remind me when i saw a guy coming outta a girls bathroom . i only dare think of the punishment. ha ha ha, but thats just bad. like why get in.... wait ive lost this whole thing. i'll come back later.

OP I think I know where you are coming from on some levels. The problem with humans is that most of their hatred and distrust comes from not understanding, and not being bothered to find out. You are trying to meet gay people and understand things about them and that is much more than most do.

Many people in my experience talk as if they have a problem with homosexuality, but when they discover they actually know someone who is gay they become (more often than not) genuinely interested, curious and knowledgeable.

Back at the start of my own relationship (I am a guy living with 2 girls) a lot of my friends would make snide comments about gay people, jokes they thought were funny that really were not, and more. Then after awhile we thought it was time to let our friends all know about “us” so the girls mentioned how they were straight (mostly) but were “together” and were also with me.

The attitude and comments of my friends over the course of the next few weeks really changed. They asked a lot of questions about how it all works, what kind of problems we have had and how we are over coming them and much more. Their comments and jokes have changed a hell of a lot too… and I genuinely think that in their case it is because they have become more aware and knowledgeable of alternative lifestyles… not just because they are feeling awkward or watching what they say in case they upset us.

A lot of homophobes in the world will tell you about some dark “gay agenda” in the world. Some dark conspiracy where gays are trying to do everything from take over Hollywood to convert more people to “the gay” like spreading a disease. What you will find however is that most gay people’s entire agenda is simply for people to understand what it is all about. No more and no less. It seems... to me anyway... that they are achieving that. Maybe slowly - but most changes of that magnitude in our society tend to be slow.

ninty9er

Aishae wrote: »

in secondary school - sex ed and related biology issues (periods, relationships) was in religion class. how stupid was that for an arrangement?! this was on the surface a modern school.

its stupid because the education on these matters is gonna be heavily influenced by the religion (catholic in this case) if taught in RE class.

as good as my school was - it was plainly heavily influenced by catholic beliefs - even our guidance councellor was also an RE teacher for flips sake...
and thats not an environment productive to helping young people with sexuality turmoil.

It was in RE for us too. The teachers were young and it wasn't influenced by the church teachings crap. Contraception etc was discussed.

Our guidance counsellor was a gay religion teacher so I don't reckon there would have been an issue talking to the counsellor.

Religion is a subject about diversity, not Catholicism.

Overall I think you're focussing too much on meeting gay people. Just meet people with the same interests as you and you'll inevitably meet other gay people that way. They won't be so obviously out a lot of the time, but being gay isn't something you need to broadcast, in fact that embeds the stereotypes surrounding homosexuality.

Chuchoter

ninty9er wrote: »

It was in RE for us too. The teachers were young and it wasn't influenced by the church teachings crap. Contraception etc was discussed.

Our guidance counsellor was a gay religion teacher so I don't reckon there would have been an issue talking to the counsellor.

Religion is a subject about diversity, not Catholicism.

Overall I think you're focussing too much on meeting gay people. Just meet people with the same interests as you and you'll inevitably meet other gay people that way. They won't be so obviously out a lot of the time, but being gay isn't something you need to broadcast, in fact that embeds the stereotypes surrounding homosexuality.

Isn't knowing closeted gay people the same as knowing straight people to all intents and purposes?

diddlybit

ninty9er wrote: »

Overall I think you're focussing too much on meeting gay people. Just meet people with the same interests as you and you'll inevitably meet other gay people that way. They won't be so obviously out a lot of the time, but being gay isn't something you need to broadcast, in fact that embeds the stereotypes surrounding homosexuality.

You be surprised at how few gay people magically pop up in social circles in small towns. As far as I know, in reagrds to gay people from my town, there was me and...and....yup, that's it. Me. I'm sure there were loads , but I never met any, or else they never came out.

I think that you are confusing "out" with "broadcasting". Most gay people don't walk around covered in rainbow paraphernalia or introduce themselves as "Hi I'm so-and-so, I'm gay." It can be quite diffiuclt to find the right oppurtunity in social cirmcumstances to out oneself, so you could spend months with someone before you know their sexuality.

In regards to the OP choosing a social circle based on interests, rather than sexuality, that's fine in an ideal world, but perhaps the OP wishes to discuss issues relating to his/her sexuality and would be more comfortable with someone gay. It's all a matter of similar experiences. I can discuss coming out with my straight friends and only some of them "get it". My gay friends, however, understand it, and know how irritating it is to have to come out over an over and over.

I'm so confused as to how a gay group of individuals automatically turn into a collective group of stereotypes. Now where did I put my tool-belt? :rolleyes:

ninty9er

crayolastereo wrote: »

Isn't knowing closeted gay people the same as knowing straight people to all intents and purposes?

I never said anything about closeted gay people, I said obvious people. To all intents and purposes I want to live in a world where knowing gay people and straight people doesn't matter, I just want to know people.

shannon_tek

ninty9er wrote: »

. . . I want to live in a world where knowing gay people and straight people doesn't matter, I just want to know people.

Said it.

diddlybit

ninty9er wrote: »

I never said anything about closeted gay people, I said obvious people. To all intents and purposes I want to live in a world where knowing gay people and straight people doesn't matter, I just want to know people.

Yes, that is an ideal world. But unfortunately it doesn't exist at the moment. You only have to look at other fora and threads here, to know that we are a long way away from that. Which is sad, but true.

Morag

I think it is part people being circumspect and you having a sheltered up bringing.
Why don't you ask your parents if anyone you know or they know is gay?
My kids know that there are lbgt people, they know that I have lgbt friends.
So if you have grown up the way you have it's due to you being sheltered combined with there not being a good level of acceptance for people who are different.

I know a lot of people get weird when it comes to kids and 'impressionable' teens,
it' like they hope if kids are brought up with only straight role models that they won't know any better and so won't grow up to be lgbt, which is just daft.

Aishae

unfortunately RE class in my school was focused on catholism rather than religions of the world so it was heavily influenced by catholic teachings. and this wasnt a long time ago. im only 27 now. (referring to an earlier post)

even in a big town or city you may not meet many people who you will find out are gay. its more to do with your life course, social circles and activities.
i got in touch with an old primary school friend on facebook a couple of years ago. i had absolutely no idea she was gay herself and until that point was the only openly gay person i knew apart from some people i ran into in animal rescue circles several years ago.
ive run into more since - maybe im more perceptive about it now. but thinking back on it, most of the gay people ive met were more the obvious sort who did fit the stereotype a bit (but some didnt)

Killer_banana

ninty9er wrote: »

Religion is a subject about diversity, not Catholicism.

It's meant to be but it often isn't taught that way. I was talking to my cousin about this the last day and as he put it 'We had to cover six religions, including Catholicism. Each religion got a chapter except Catholicism, which got the rest of the book.' My experience with it was basically the same. I did my leaving cert last year.

ninty9er

Completely OT but
1st Yr CHristianity
2nd Yr Judaism
3rd Yr Islam
TY didn't do it
5th Yr sex and drugs
6th Yr morality, humanity, crime and punishment

And it was a religious school.

Annasopra

ninty9er wrote: »

...To all intents and purposes I want to live in a world where knowing gay people and straight people doesn't matter, I just want to know people.

I think that's very idealistic - It also seems to me to be an ideal that society should be homogenised and homogeneous - in a way sort of not recognising diverse cultures and almost wanting an overtly heteronormative society.

Chuchoter

ninty9er wrote: »

I never said anything about closeted gay people, I said obvious people. To all intents and purposes I want to live in a world where knowing gay people and straight people doesn't matter, I just want to know people.

In practice, thats a very heteronormative set up where everyone is assumed straight. Sexuality is obviously not that important, but its still a part of who you are and it does shape a lot of your experience and outlooks. Washing over it like its not even there doesn't achieve anything.

ninty9er

No, it's a society where sexuality isn't an issue, and in general, in my experience, it isn't. If someone wants to assume I'm straight it makes no difference to me. If I want someone to know I'm gay they will, but it's not important that everyone knows. No more than people knowing that someone straight has a girlfriend or boyfriend, these just aren't things worth losing sleep over

Annasopra

ninty9er wrote: »

No, it's a society where sexuality isn't an issue, and in general, in my experience, it isn't. If someone wants to assume I'm straight it makes no difference to me. If I want someone to know I'm gay they will, but it's not important that everyone knows. No more than people knowing that someone straight has a girlfriend or boyfriend, these just aren't things worth losing sleep over

I don't think that's possible - firstly such a society would not have gay bars or clubs - It would be really difficult for gay people to meet partners. Also I would envisage such a society being very very heteronormative and culturally homogeneous - the thing is lgbt people are very diverse - some are like you and want to move beyond the established cultures but many others don't - There are many people who want to keep gay bars, pride parades etc etc and there are people sort of inbetween - I'm kind of an inbetween person myself but I really dislike the idea of a heteronormative society where anyone outside those societal confines is frowned on.

ninty9er

I never meant to infer people being frowned upon. That's not acceptable. What I mean is that society as a whole is moving beyond the whole notion of having to go to a gay bar to pick up a guy or girl, it can be done in any pub or club, well any one where there's a young crowd, under 30s ish. In ten years that'll be under 40s, 20 years under 50s and so on.

I accept that there are people who like the idea of gay bars and I wouldn't seek to deprive them of that, but I would like to see a rebranding to camp bars or drag bars, because if these bars are seen as for gay people only then we're not exactly being positive about mainstreaming sexualities.

For example IT Blanch and IT Tallaght from what I'm told have as many straight people in their LGBT societies as gay. I'm told they're actually LGBTF societies to encourage straight people to become involved and make it an integral social and awareness vehicle rather than a thing "the gays use to find sex" or a segregated part of society. I just think that's a really positive outlook that should be more encouraged.

Annasopra

I guess it's a question the same as that faced by travellers - integration vs assimilation - personally I'm all for integration but not necessarily assimilation - on the other hand I don't particularly like straight people who treat gay bars like zoos or women who go into gaybars and are very anti lesbian. Liberation campaigns do I think though in general have to be lead by lgbt people - and yes sometimes I would agree with LGBT only spaces and women only spaces

Aishae

the problem is were a long time away from a more integrated society cos theres just too much stigma and ignorance particularly in the over 40's generations. and plenty of them wont die off anytime soon. and they have or will have kids theyll pass on their 'values', beliefs and attitudes too.

it'd be nice.
we need people to accept it more thought. in a positive way. if you hit on someone of the same sex in a straight bar the chances are they are straight and you might well get a smack in the face or worse for your trouble. and even if that particular person wouldnt do that, you dont know that unless you try. i guess many feel safer with gay bars in that respect.

yawha

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I don't think that's possible - firstly such a society would not have gay bars or clubs - It would be really difficult for gay people to meet partners. Also I would envisage such a society being very very heteronormative and culturally homogeneous - the thing is lgbt people are very diverse - some are like you and want to move beyond the established cultures but many others don't - There are many people who want to keep gay bars, pride parades etc etc and there are people sort of inbetween - I'm kind of an inbetween person myself but I really dislike the idea of a heteronormative society where anyone outside those societal confines is frowned on.

Not that I agree with him, but I'm not really understanding your logic in envisaging that this society would be heteronormative and culturally homogeneous.

He's simply proposing a society where a person's sexuality is less of a defining feature of their lives. This implies nothing about homogeneity or heteronormativity.

Sir Ophiuchus

yawha wrote: »

Not that I agree with him, but I'm not really understanding your logic in envisaging that this society would be heteronormative and culturally homogeneous.

He's simply proposing a society where a person's sexuality is less of a defining feature of their lives. This implies nothing about homogeneity or heteronormativity.

You can argue that that's an assimilationist perspective.

I have to say it does get to me when straight people say "Oh, sexuality isn't that big a deal." Well, yeah, obviously not for them.

yawha

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

You can argue that that's an assimilationist perspective.

I have to say it does get to me when straight people say "Oh, sexuality isn't that big a deal." Well, yeah, obviously not for them.

Huh? Is ninty9er not gay?

Annasopra

yawha wrote: »

He's simply proposing a society where a person's sexuality is less of a defining feature of their lives. This implies nothing about homogeneity or heteronormativity.

lgbt people would just be blending in with everyone else - assimilating if you like. We wouldn't have gay bars, LGBT groups, pride parades - lgbt people and how we define ourselves and our relationships would become almost a mirror image of heterosexual people and heterosexual relationships - anything outside the norm would be looked down and labelled as freakish. That's what I would imagine such a society to look like.

yawha

Johnnymcg wrote: »

lgbt people would just be blending in with everyone else - assimilating if you like. We wouldn't have gay bars, LGBT groups, pride parades - lgbt people and how we define ourselves and our relationships would become almost a mirror image of heterosexual people and heterosexual relationships - anything outside the norm would be looked down and labelled as freakish. That's what I would imagine such a society to look like.

I'm not getting you at all. Why would anything outside the norm be looked down upon or labelled as freakish?

It seems you're making the leap from the suggestion of a society where one's sexuality is less of a defining feature of their identity to one which is backward, homogeneous and heteronormative.

Do you give no consideration to such a society where people are simply tolerant to others' sexualities to the point of indifference?

(like, this is all very idealistic, and I disagree with ninty9er because it's pretty hard to envisage society changing any time soon, but it strikes me as pretty odd that you'd jump to the conclusion of this society being heteronormative and homogeneous)

diddlybit

yawha wrote: »

I'm not getting you at all. Why would anything outside the norm be looked down upon or labelled as freakish?

Because it happens all the time in day-to-day society. Any sexual practices that are not procreative, mononogomous or "vanilla" (sorry all, it's early and that word fits) are continually seen as freakish. The gay community is as guilty of this as heteronormative society, in the strive for equality, there is a tendency to follow an assimilationist route i.e. "Don't worry, we are just like you."

yawha wrote: »

It seems you're making the leap from the suggestion of a society where one's sexuality is less of a defining feature of their identity to one which is backward, homogeneous and heteronormative.

In order to do this, there will have to be one of two things, a radical overhaul of societal norms, in that the result is that society do not privilage heterosexual, monogomous, procreative relationships or that, those on the margins simply adapt to the normative standards. In my opinion, the societal norms need to be critiqued before we can envision any form of sexual identity utopia, because otherwise we are assimilating into a society that is both highly gendered, hierarchal, and still non-egalitarian.