Is there a question to be asked about the honesty of the CL?

gosplan

... vrs Barcelona

Motta's red for Inter last year and Pepe's red last night - both fairly soft.

Chelsea's many denied penalties two years ago and RVP's second yellow this year - both close to inexplicable.

I fully expect pics of tin foil hats posted in response to this but I'd rather someone posted a booking similar to Van Persie's or a match in which a team was denied as many obvious penalties as Chelsea were.

If there is a question to be answered then as I see it the answer must be ...

Ref's are weak and unfairly favour the 'good' team

or

Barcelona are Adidas (who kind of control football), Platini and Blatter were/are Adidas ... you get the message but in case you don't read this.

or

Barcelona bought the refs

The Muppet

gosplan wrote: »

... vrs Barcelona

Motta's red for Inter last year and Pepe's red last night - both fairly soft.

Chelsea's many denied penalties two years ago and RVP's second yellow this year - both close to inexplicable.

I fully expect pics of tin foil hats posted in response to this but I'd rather someone posted a booking similar to Van Persie's or a match in which a team was denied as many obvious penalties as Chelsea were.

If there is a question to be answered then as I see it the answer must be ...

Ref's are weak and unfairly favour the 'good' team

or

Barcelona are Adidas (who kind of control football), Platini and Blatter were/are Adidas ... you get the message but in case you don't read this.

or

Barcelona bought the refs

My mind is open to this suggestion so I won't be posting tin foil hats at you, it wouldn't be the first time it happened in this competition and it's fairly obvious Football is corrupt at the highest level.

Those sending offs including last night were all very soft TBH.

Woody_FX

I dont think there is any kind of conspiracy, sometimes you get these strange sequences of events.

fryup

champions league?? well thats a laugh for a start

don't mean to sound like an old fart, but i'd wish they'd return to the old format of a knock out competition for league winners

the champions league is just a cynical money making racket imo

Neil3030

fryup wrote: »

champions league?? well thats a laugh for a start

don't mean to sound like an old fart, but i'd wish they'd return to the old format of a knock out competition for league winners

This argument was quite beautifully blown out of the water by Rafa Hoenigstein on Football Weekly in November, when Partizan played Shakhtar in the group stages.

"I'm sure the purists who only want champions in the Champions' League were glued to this one"

kippy

fryup wrote: »

champions league?? well thats a laugh for a start

don't mean to sound like an old fart, but i'd wish they'd return to the old format of a knock out competition for league winners

the champions league is just a cynical money making racket imo

Totally agree - it's become nothing more of a cash cow - the group stages are a joke and the best they could do is rename it to something other than "Champions League" Maybe "Champions and least worst losers league".
UEFA usually make the excuse that if only the winners of the leagues got into it, these would benefit unfairly from the extra revenue and they would prefer a few teams to benefit to make the national leagues more competitive.


Back on topic - conspiracy? Nah, just refs bias. And I firmly believe last nights red was a nailed on red.
Mourihno has everyone talking about this but in fairness his very unfancied Porto team won the CL back in the day - was there any conspiracy there?

karma_

kippy wrote: »

Totally agree - it's become nothing more of a cash cow - the group stages are a joke and the best they could do is rename it to something other than "Champions League" Maybe "Champions and least worst losers league".
UEFA usually make the excuse that if only the winners of the leagues got into it, these would benefit unfairly from the extra revenue and they would prefer a few teams to benefit to make the national leagues more competitive.


Back on topic - conspiracy? Nah, just refs bias. And I firmly believe last nights red was a nailed on red.
Mourihno has everyone talking about this but in fairness his very unfancied Porto team won the CL back in the day - was there any conspiracy there?

Come now, don't be bringing that up, that doesn't fit with Mourihnos narrative.

Fr Tod Umptious

Off Topic - For all of you who hate this CL with non winners in it please answer the following.

Do you watch it each week it is on or do you only watch the games that involve two league champions ?

Do you only discuss or read about games that involve two league champions ?

Are you a fan of a team that is in the CL but not a league winner, if so would you prefer to see less of your team on TV each week.

Neil3030

Guys, if they only let champions into the tournament, it would be shit!

This year, for example, you wouldn't have had Man Utd, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Spurs, Roma, Milan, Lyon or Schalke.

There's no consipiracy on this front, just common sense!!

HalloweenJack

gosplan wrote: »

Barcelona are Adidas (who kind of control football), Platini and Blatter were/are Adidas ... you get the message but in case you don't read this.

Barca's jerseys are made by Nike and have never been made by Adidas. Real and Chelsea are both Adidas.

Unless you're suggesting Adidas DON'T want their material to be seen as that of champions, then I don't know what you're getting at. Do you?

kippy

Neil3030 wrote: »

Guys, if they only let champions into the tournament, it would be shit!

This year, for example, you wouldn't have had Man Utd, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Spurs, Roma, Milan, Lyon or Schalke.

There's no consipiracy on this front, just common sense!!

Yep, and what is the problem there...........
Its the Champions League - should only have the champions from each country - playing knockout games against each other.
For everything else there is the UEFA/Whatever it is called cup.

Neil3030

kippy wrote: »

Yep, and what is the problem there...........
Its the Champions League - should only have the champions from each country - playing knockout games against each other.
For everything else there is the UEFA/Whatever it is called cup.

The Champions' League would then be far too small (and crap), while the Europa would be ungovernably big.

tommyhaas

kippy wrote: »

Yep, and what is the problem there...........
Its the Champions League - should only have the champions from each country - playing knockout games against each other.
For everything else there is the UEFA/Whatever it is called cup.

I think that's why it was changed though, because the UEFA Cup was arguably more difficult to win and more entertaining to watch. Surely, if there's going to be two tier's of European competition, the higher tier should be that featuring the best teams and the stiffest competition, which is what the Champions Lge now is relative to the UEFA Cup

kippy

Neil3030 wrote: »

The Champions' League would then be far too small (and crap), while the Europa would be ungovernably big.

God, think outside the box - cut the number of places in the Europa.....

stovelid

No conspiracy.

The CL (including non-champions) is a sop to the big clubs to stop them forming a super-league and the big teams know that the authorities won't usher in something like (retroactively judged) long bans for cheating and bad sportmanship because despite the ocassional spasms of outrage like last night, the punters want to see the big players in action...and the big teams even if the team(s) finished third or fourth in their league and are no more champions than teams that were relegated.

Ush1

No, there is no question.

Refs are weak, they are human and changing officiating is a FIFA problem, not UEFA.

Coillte_Bhoy

fryup wrote: »

champions league?? well thats a laugh for a start

don't mean to sound like an old fart, but i'd wish they'd return to the old format of a knock out competition for league winners

the champions league is just a cynical money making racket imo

The name should be changed imo but not necessarily the format. It's a tounament for the top sides in Europe. There isnt a hope in hell of reverting to the old format.

stovelid

Ush1 wrote: »

Refs are weak, they are human

This.

As obvious as it sounds, they are only human and responsible for financially huge, split-second decisions; little or no technical help from the authorities with managers ready to slaughter you in the rpess and players trying to con you every minute of the game.

Drumpot

Any player that approaches the ref to dispute a free should be carded unless its the captain.

Any player who shows an imaginary yellow, gets a yellow (and offending player should get off his yellow unless its a red).

Any player in a high profile match who is subsequently proven to cheat in anyway, gets an automatic 1 game ban. 2 if they have been found guilty of this act in the past.

As for the ref being bought by Barca, dont make me laugh. Thats just downright ridiculous. Refs have good and bad games. Sometimes they favour the home teams , sometimes the away ones. Managers try to influence the kind of decisions they will give by giving them warnings in pre match interviews, but its up to the refs to keep themselves impartial.

I dont think either team came out with any credit after the game. Messis genius goals did not absolve his team of awful cheating antics. Uefa have to start attacking the cheating culture that seems to be on a differant level in Spanish football if yesterdays game is anything to go by.

iregk

gosplan wrote: »

Barcelona are Adidas (who kind of control football), Platini and Blatter were/are Adidas ...

Sweet Jesus thats the most pathetic paper thin argument I've ever come across on boards! Please hang your head in shame.

Barcelona are Adidas! Which of course is why Nike make their kit!!!!

Neil3030

kippy wrote: »

God, think outside the box - cut the number of places in the Europa.....

And restrict access to European Football/funds to a handful of clubs? What kind of absurd plutocratic idea is that?

Essien

Drumpot wrote: »

Any player that approaches the ref to dispute a free should be carded unless its the captain.

Any player who shows an imaginary yellow, gets a yellow (and offending player should get off his yellow unless its a red).

Any player in a high profile match who is subsequently proven to cheat in anyway, gets an automatic 1 game ban. 2 if they have been found guilty of this act in the past.

As for the ref being bought by Barca, dont make me laugh. Thats just downright ridiculous. Refs have good and bad games. Sometimes they favour the home teams , sometimes the away ones. Managers try to influence the kind of decisions they will give by giving them warnings in pre match interviews, but its up to the refs to keep themselves impartial.

I dont think either team came out with any credit after the game. Messis genius goals did not absolve his team of awful cheating antics. Uefa have to start attacking the cheating culture that seems to be on a differant level in Spanish football if yesterdays game is anything to go by.

Excellent post, I agree with all of it, but I laughed at the bolded bit.

How do you know if an imaginary card is yellow? :pac:

gosplan

iregk wrote: »

Sweet Jesus thats the most pathetic paper thin argument I've ever come across on boards! Please hang your head in shame.

Barcelona are Adidas! Which of course is why Nike make their kit!!!!

Go easy. I'm just giving options. Obviously got the details there wrong.

Just leave it as 'global sports manufacturers conspiracy' then.

Neil3030

Drumpot wrote: »

Any player that approaches the ref to dispute a free should be carded unless its the captain.

Any player who shows an imaginary yellow, gets a yellow (and offending player should get off his yellow unless its a red).

Any player in a high profile match who is subsequently proven to cheat in anyway, gets an automatic 1 game ban. 2 if they have been found guilty of this act in the past.

This. Plus:

Mic the refs so the disgraceful profanity levied at them is broadcast for all to hear.

Referees should stand their ground after making a decision and if the players swarm around him complaining and IF any of them make contact with him, it's an instant red.

The above and/or only captains may speak to the referee. Yellows for anyone who breaks this.

Introduce a simulation and counter-fair-play citing panel, who have authority to review matches and implement retrospective bans as punishment. (diving, ref abuse, feigning injury, etc)

Permit medics come onto the pitch without having the match stopped. This works in rugby, where the risk is far higher.

Allow managers challenges for major decisions, but as in cricket, impose a 20 second limit. Further, they get 2 a game and forfeit a substitution if they are wrong. That might help them see how bloody hard it is to referee a match in live time.

gosplan

Drumpot wrote: »

As for the ref being bought by Barca, dont make me laugh.

Again, I never said they were. I'm just giving the only possibilities I can think of as to why Barca get this treatment.

I do agree that that's the most absurd one.

The obvious one is the weakness of the ref's and the officiating system.

but ....

I'm moving more towards the 'global sportswear/UEFA/SPECTRE type conspiracy' option these days.

Basically I think one swallow does not a summer make and all that but I'm getting downright suspicious because for years now, whenever Barca are in a really tough CL match, they get the rub of the green in terms of reffing decisions.

I havce no doubt that the world cup in Japan and Korea was rigged to favour the home teams at the expense of teams like Italy and Spain. Is it inconcievable that something similar could happen in the CL?

RustySpoon

I feel that seeding of all kinds being removed in all FIFA/UEFA (and all other federations for that matter) should be removed as it is an obstacle to true competition on a semi level playing field, with luck of the draw :cool: and the ability to beat any other team on any given day being the ultimate test of the winner.

Obviously the bigger the names in the latter stages of a competition the bigger the TV audience and advertising sponsorship means that this will not be contemplated. It also means that the amount of places and teams that are represented are going to be more or less the same teams year after year.

tommyhaas

I think a distinction needs to be drawn though between diving and feigning injury.

Running at pace, even the slightest contact is often sufficient to send a player down. Looking at replays, this can often be construed as diving when perhaps this is'int the case. It is at time's impossible to tell. To subsequently punish a player in this regard, the video evidence would have to be conclusive

Wrt feigning injury though, I'd love to see the authorities come down heavy on this. Dani Alves last night is a good example. Where it could be debated that a yellow card was warranted, Alves blatantly stayed down and went off on a stretcher in an attempt to get an opposing player sent off. A similar example was Rivaldo in the World Cup against Turkey a few years back. This sort of behaviour should IMO be dealt with severely

Drumpot

RustySpoon wrote: »

I feel that seeding of all kinds being removed in all FIFA/UEFA (and all other federations for that matter) should be removed as it is an obstacle to true competition on a semi level playing field, with luck of the draw :cool: and the ability to beat any other team on any given day being the ultimate test of the winner.

Obviously the bigger the names in the latter stages of a competition the bigger the TV audience and advertising sponsorship means that this will not be contemplated. It also means that the amount of places and teams that are represented are going to be more or less the same teams year after year.

Yeh, Im a bit mixed on this one TBH.

Seeding is actually the fairest way of doing it, no doubt about that and while this should always be encouraged it might take away from the enjoyment of the tournament if they do it this way.

Imagine a CL group with United, Barca, Bayern, Lyon and 2 or three other groups like that. By the time they quarters come around you might only have 2 or 3 good teams in it!.

It is a quandry. On one hand fairness should always take priority over the likes of seeding but on another, its unquestionable that seeding does generally guarantee better games in the latter stages of the tournament.

And for the record, Irelands problem with the France seeding debacle was differant. If you are going to seed teams, it should be decided before the tournament starts!

parker kent

Maybe if Jose didn't send his team out to bully Barcelona for 90 minutes, he'd have 11 players left at the end? The red was debatable last night. But Marcelo and Adebayor were lucky to stay on the pitch. As are the majority of red cards his teams have got against Barca.

Barca's antics were ridiculous as well, but they are hardly the only team full of diving, whining, moaners. If Jose wants to see what top level cheating looks like, watch the UEFA Cup Final between his Porto team and Celtic. Or any team managed by Mourinho since.

There is no conspiracy (particularly the laughable idea that Adidas are favouring a team that wears a Nike kit :rolleyes:). This is just Jose deflecting attention like many managers do after a bad defeat. Of course there will be some poor decisions, but refs are human. Jose has had dodgy decisions aid his triumphs in the past, so his current rant is hypocritical. The way most managers tend to be myopic, hypocritical loons when their team loses.

orourkeda

The champions league is ruining club football or perhaps more pertinently money is ruining football and the CL is the games shining example in this debate. There are a host of pressures on modern clubs depending on its position in the pecking order. The likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Bayern Munich all need to maintain their position at the tops of their respective trees. Speaking as an Aston Villa supporter, they've have spent a great deal of money over the last 3\4 years in the pursuit of CL football. While they have been competitive up until this season CL football has proven elusive yet the spending continues. Clubs in a similar position across europe are spending (overspending in some cases) for this tournament in an ever more reckless manner.

I understand that this may appear like something of an overstatement but if we look at recent events.

The most recent winners of the tournament Inter Milan have posted over a half billion euro worth of losses acording to their most recently published figures over a three year period.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/442218-the-price-of-inters-success

Success comes at a cost. This is a given in pretty much any walk of life but I don't believe it's possible to justify this level of expenditure in the chase for success in any sporting arena. What's more is that for all the expense all Inter fans are left with is memories. There isn't a trophy on earth worth this kind of outlay and the level of expenditure in the name of the success becomes more outlandish and obscene with each season that passes.

Just look at manchester city for example. Although something of a vanity project for their owners, their spending on players is now rivalling the very top clubs in the world. Most other english clubs simply cannot compete with this and should not risk their very existence by overstretching themselves financially for a mere chance of playing a competition they probably have little chance of being truly competitive in. Although Tottenham had a good season in the tournament there is the very real prospect that they may not not even qualify next season. In fairness to spurs, they are a well run club both on and off the field but this is proving to be something of an exception.

Dont be at yourself

There's a magic bullet to solve all of this, of course: video technology. Would Busquets, Alves and Pedro roll around the pitch for 90 minutes if the ref could view each foul? Would Marcelo and Arbeloa sneakily stamp on other players? Would the entire Barca team surround the ref to intimidate him, if he could view an incident from multiple angles in super slow motion?

Won't happen, though. FIFA and UEFA will trundle on, ignoring what has fast become the norm in virtually every other major sport in the world, and losing fans because of it.