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Anthony Gerrard for Ireland
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27-04-2011 6:36pm#1
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So you would prefer if legends like Aldridge, Houghton, McCarthy, Lawrenson, Townsend, Cascarino, McGrath never togged out for Ireland because they're Irish only due to heritage?? Gerrard, Pennant, O'Hara etc have a claim as good as these players just a pity they're not as good
They are not too bad all the same. They would make a difference to our current squad anyway.tallaghtmick wrote: »waits for john rooney to declare for ireland.......
..and Anton Ferdinand
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While you did cite Andy Townsend in a previous post, you did qualify his inclusion in your catagorisation by using the words "to an extent". Although you did not cite Aldo, McGloughlin or Houghton, it is fair to infer that you would classify them in the same terms. Like Townsend all three contributed to Irish footballing success.
Who says they didn't contribute? I'm simply saying we pushed our luck big time in even selecting them and were a major factor in the rules being changed to stop it happening again. It should have been a stop gap measure, which needs must I accepted, but Trapp seems to be heading down that road again, which I won'tOf course it would be great if we could simply turn to the "well" of Irish footballing talent and return with water. Unfortunatly, reality dictates that as a result of our inextricable link with English Football, and indeed our history of emmigration to the UK, it is almost natural that our "well" will contain players of Townsend's ilk. It would be nice to have a national team comprised of "Irishmen", but qualification for membership of a national football association works on rules which are more liberal, and will give rise to a larger pool of players, all with varying degrees of nationality.
And that rule book has tightened considerably, to the point where Irish born and bred Darren Gibson had to be fought for at CASS level.
I agree with you to the extent that we should be looking to develop home grown players. I believe that will benefit our national team, and our national league. In the wake of Ireland's performance at the 1997 Youth World Cup the likes of Colin Hawkins, Trevor Molloy and Dessie Baker made a name for themselves, and their presence in the National League at the conclusion of the Tournament was hugely beneficial to the league
Grand so.However, that does not mean that our national team selection should be based on national boarders. I agree that Meyler and Hoolihan should be in the team ahead of Paul Greene. However, that is based on Paul Greene's abilities, or lack thereof. The likes of Hoolihan and Meyler are better players, playing at a higher level of football then Greene, and they are more rounded players. For some reason, Trappatoni prefers Greene. On the other hand if Darren O Dea and Richard Dunne were injured, I would rather Trappatoni play Ciaran Clark or Sean St Ledger over Paul McShane. It is common sense that if you have a better player at your disposal, that you utilise his services.
But I have said before I have no problem with diaspora who commit early to Ireland, which Clarke and St Ledger both did.
Greene is both ****e and a mercenary as far as I am concerned. Two reasons he should be nowhere near the side.I agree that your position is not unreasonable, but the logical conclusion of your sliding scale is that poorer players are liable to be picked simply because of the country in which they were born, or their degree of nationality.
Well, to be fair, that is the whole point of international football.
As a common frequenter of foreign football fora, I believe it is a rare occasion on which a fan will refer to Ireland as "mercenary". The jealousy and short sighted nature of the likes of Billy Bingham gave rise to the classification of some of Ireland's players as "carpetbaggers". But it did not really go beyond that.
It bloody did you know. The British media routinely referred to us as England B etc.If you look at the videos in the run up to, and during Italia 1990 you will clearly see that the Irish nation didnt really give a hoot about the degrees of nationality of the likes of Packie Bonner (Born and Bred Irish), Kevin Sheedy ("genuine diaspora"), and Tony Cascarino (hardly Irish at all). The nation was ensconsed in a bubble of "can do". The thousands of people who packed the pubs, and the thousands who lined the streets at the homecoming is testament to the fact that the Irish identified with that team regardless of their respective degrees of nationality.
I think you are looking at this through rose tinted glasses. There was plenty of comment, some of it negative, right through the Charlton period that the likes of Brady and Whelan were discarded for Brits. It did happen.I dont mean to be disrespectful, but it would be for the crank to have brought up the degrees of nationality of the players during that period of success.
Or the football people who saw Charlton dismembering the underage teams on the basis he would never play any of them, and using the resources to hire researchers. A situation that it took Brian Kerr to fix.
I don't know what age you were in the late 80's, but Charlton as a man was ferociously unpopular with the grass roots. Yes, we all enjoyed his success, but there was a well known bust up with the u21 manager (Givens or Hand I think) that hit the papers too. Roy Keane mentions it in his buke.0 -
OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »Who says they didn't contribute? I'm simply saying we pushed our luck big time in even selecting them and were a major factor in the rules being changed to stop it happening again. It should have been a stop gap measure, which needs must I accepted, but Trapp seems to be heading down that road again, which I won't.
Im not saying that you are suggesting that they didnt contribute. I am suggesting that your implicit differentiation is based on their ability, rather then their degree of nationality.
But if the rules are being changed, then surely the likes of Pennant need not apply ?
Trappatoni is not heading down the same route as Jack Charlton. Ireland's three top strikers are Irish, Ireland's four wingers are Irish, with one "genuine diaspora". The bulk of Ireland's midfield is Irish, as are the guts of the back-line.OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »And that rule book has tightened considerably, to the point where Irish born and bred Darren Gibson had to be fought for at CASS level. .
Darren Gibson's Irish nationality was not as clear-cut as you would seem to suggest. The only reason the CASS became involved was due to Northern Ireland's resistence to what was a grey area before dispensation was given to Gibson. It is not a case that UEFA or FIFA became involved and sought to prevent Gibson playing for the ROI.OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »ut I have said before I have no problem with diaspora who commit early to Ireland, which Clarke and St Ledger both did.
Greene is both ****e and a mercenary as far as I am concerned. Two reasons he should be nowhere near the side..
Again, what difference does the time of declaration of nationality make ?
Ray Houghton became aware of his eligibility by fluke. Does that not place him the same catagory as Greene ?OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »Well, to be fair, that is the whole point of international football..
But that does not mean that the degree of nationality is set in stone.OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »It bloody did you know. The British media routinely referred to us as England B etc.
Fleet Street determines the views of countless football fans around the world on the subject of the Irish football team ?OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »I think you are looking at this through rose tinted glasses. There was plenty of comment, some of it negative, right through the Charlton period that the likes of Brady and Whelan were discarded for Brits. It did happen..
Brady was in the Irish team right up until the final Euro 88 qualification game. His virtual absence from the Euro 88 tournament was based on a suspension he accrued in the Bulgaria game. He went to Euro 88 as an ineligible player. Charlton decided not to disrupt a team which was performing well.OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »Or the football people who saw Charlton dismembering the underage teams on the basis he would never play any of them, and using the resources to hire researchers. A situation that it took Brian Kerr to fix.
I don't know what age you were in the late 80's, but Charlton as a man was ferociously unpopular with the grass roots. Yes, we all enjoyed his success, but there was a well known bust up with the u21 manager (Givens or Hand I think) that hit the papers too. Roy Keane mentions it in his buke.
Did the likes of Don Givens work absolute miracles with the Under 21 team ? That man single handedly decided the fate of several potential Irish players, spoke on matters which were beyond his remit, and failed miserably to progress the Irish team at that level.
Ultimately, once Charlton departed, the likes of McCarthy and Kerr worked hard on restoring a clapped out Irish team. While it was not an instant success, it quickly became moderately successful.0 -
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