Fingal County Council- Where has all the money gone?

Corsendonk

Just looking around Fingal I can't help noticing the number of FCC projects that seem to have stalled or shelved, the sports stadium in Lusk, the conversion of Martins shop in Rush etc. I am sure other posters have examples in their immediate area to add. What I want to know is where has all the money earmarked for these projects gone?

I know we are in a major recession but we still have local shopkeepers complaining about rate increases and surely FCC gained substantial income from housing and commercial developments over the recent years.

I am just an ordinary Joe Soap so surely someone on Boards is a trained accountant or embezzler that can tell me were the money went. Or was the Council vastly over optimistic with its planning in the heady days of the Celtic Tiger?

Martron

you can look at the old development plan on there website from 2006 - 1011 and spot all the things that were not done.

the development plan from what i can see has not changed much ..... and as you have said where is all the money?

work has started on the wasteground opposite the church but i am not sure if this is the road or something else. looks like they are levelling stone for a compund of some sort.

Eoineo

I would say they were over-optimistic about their planning. Development Plans were compiled on the basis of rates being collected in the future. The new plan is far more vague than the old one. The money is simply not there for projects on as large a scale as there was 10 years ago.

The organisations that I'm involved in now plan for the future allowing that we will have no funding. We apply for everything and if we get it then it's a bonus. It is though refreshing to see more people willing to get involved in the community and those who do have less of an expectation that the Council will provide everything. It's much better in my experience for organisations to be self-sufficient first and have guidance/assistance from statutory bodies.

Martron

the last plan was compiled during the time where we had more money than sense. they main flop occured in september 2008 . this was nearly 3 years into the last development plan. so the money that was allotted to these jobs was there. where did it go if nothing was done?

and why was nothing done?

hmmmmm the plot thickens.

Jimdagym

AFAIK these projects financing is drip fed to the projects not paid up front, so when the cheques stop coming, the work just stops. The money was never "there", just budgeted to be there.

Not excusing anyone, just saying I believe this is how it works.

RobFowl

Jimdagym wrote: »

AFAIK these projects financing is drip fed to the projects not paid up front, so when the cheques stop coming, the work just stops. The money was never "there", just budgeted to be there.

Not excusing anyone, just saying I believe this is how it works.

+ 1
Just remember this come the next local elections...

Corsendonk

Martron wrote: »

the last plan was compiled during the time where we had more money than sense. they main flop occured in september 2008 . this was nearly 3 years into the last development plan. so the money that was allotted to these jobs was there. where did it go if nothing was done?

and why was nothing done?

hmmmmm the plot thickens.

Just read that FCC was council of the year last year! The council has reduced staffing levels over the last couple of years to pull in the budget but does anyone know how much the cllrs reduced their wages and expenses to set an example?

Lumbo

Corsendonk wrote: »

Just read that FCC was council of the year last year!

South Dublin County Council won that award http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=939&pid=20341

Corsendonk

Lumbo wrote: »

South Dublin County Council won that award http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=939&pid=20341

Yes for 2011, bit strange really seening that its still only April. Talk about slapping yourself on the back.

Beasty

What sort of development are we talking about here? Is there still the demand for any facilities/services that would be provided. I know there was a big shortage of school places not too long ago, but am no longer seeing the same level of horror stories about the distance some kids are having to travel to school

IMO, they don't seem capable of maintaining what we have got, and new infrastructure probably neds to take a back-seat for a while

In addition, whether FCC like it or not, consideration must be given to the wider economic woes of the country. If central government is required to make cutbacks if only to help pay interest on the national debt local government can be expected to contribute by making appropriate savings.

I am not suggesting there are not economies that can be made in local government - I am sure there are savings to be made on running costs, as well as on infrastructure projects, but that is only part of the overall equation

On the councillors wages point - I didn't think these were salaried roles. There have been separate threads on expenses - in theory this should cover genuine extra costs resulting from council activities, although I suspect some of the allowances may be generous to some. Having said that I think we are talking a drop in the ocean in the context of the council's overall budget

Eoineo

If it's infrastructure you're talking about I know that the Bog of the Ring has to be upgraded - sewage treatment plant, along with a number of others. That should have happened years ago and it appears that it's on a go slow but I could be corrected on that. There's a knock on affect then because it's holding up the development of any swimming pools in the area serviced by the plant.

Road upgrades and maintenance seem to be at a snails pace. For example the Sea Road/Millview Road in Malahide really shocked me the other day. The "speed ramps" are in a dreadful state, have been more months even before the big freezes we had and yet no attempt has been made to repair them. Hamlet Lane in Balbriggan has taken months to finish once it got started. I'm not even sure it's completed yet. The reason I'm told is because the money is being released in drips as and when it becomes available even though it's a priority from a safety point of view.

I don't think there is a big hole at all. I think the supply of money has dried up.

dan_d

Think the money has basically dried up and what little there is has to spread to cover wages (and I'm not necessarily talking about councillors, more the admin staff, the lads you see around the roads, etc,etc).

That's probably about as complicated as it gets....

Lumbo

dan_d wrote: »

Think the money has basically dried up and what little there is has to spread to cover wages (and I'm not necessarily talking about councillors, more the admin staff, the lads you see around the roads, etc,etc).

That's probably about as complicated as it gets....

I think it's a lot more complicated than that :rolleyes:
The majority of County Council are suffering losses in all areas due to the Economic downturn.

Unpaid Rates, Water Charges, Bin Charges, Development Levies etc are draining what resources most of the major Councils had to spend on projects. Like most of the larger Councils in the Country, Fingal depends mostly on Commercial Rates for income and not the Local Goverment fund. Despite reducing the rate by 2%, many Business are suffering and are no longer supplying the Council with the funding it requires.

Reducing cost for wages, which have been come down by 17% in the last 2 years, while not low enough, isn't the answer to everything.

Here's the link to Fingals Budget. You might find more answers to the issues in there.

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Publications/Council/Annual%20Budget%202011.pdf

Have a nice day

Corsendonk

Lumbo wrote: »

I think it's a lot more complicated than that :rolleyes:
The majority of County Council are suffering losses in all areas due to the Economic downturn.

Unpaid Rates, Water Charges, Bin Charges, Development Levies etc are draining what resources most of the major Councils had to spend on projects. Like most of the larger Councils in the Country, Fingal depends mostly on Commercial Rates for income and not the Local Goverment fund. Despite reducing the rate by 2%, many Business are suffering and are no longer supplying the Council with the funding it requires.

Reducing cost for wages, which have been come down by 17% in the last 2 years, while not low enough, isn't the answer to everything.

Here's the link to Fingals Budget. You might find more answers to the issues in there.

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Publications/Council/Annual%20Budget%202011.pdf

Have a nice day

Yes I read the 2011 budget last night, made interesting reading especially the intro of each chapter. My earlier comment about cllr wages reductions(representative payments) in an earlier might be only a small drop in the overall 23%(€69.12m) that FCC spends on wages of the €249 million budget this year but I always believe leadership should set examples. FCC have reduced staffing levels and so in turn the wage bill but the cllrs don't seem to have shown an act of solidarity with the workforce.

Does anyone know the locations of the abbatoirs in the Fingal area?

The Hill Billy

I don't know of any business that operates strictly as an abattoir in NCD. However, any premises where beasts are slaughtered under licence (some farms, meat processing plants, etc.) would probably qualify as an abattoir for the purposes of that report.

Corsendonk

Hill Billy wrote: »

I don't know of any business that operates strictly as an abattoir in NCD. However, any premises where beasts are slaughtered under licence (some farms, meat processing plants, etc.) would probably qualify as an abattoir for the purposes of that report.

And so would be registered with the Dept of Agriculture for the inspection of Animal Health and Welfare by Dept. of Agriculture Inspectors? I can't find any Listings on their website for sites in Fingal.

santry_goonshow

A couple of people I know work with the Councils in Fingal and Dublin City. I heard that the Government got all the money that was collected off property developers and froze it. As I remember the developers are allowed to build the extra stuff or they can hand over cash of the same value. All the Councils in Dublin and the east where the development was taking place really depended this money but cant use it for some reason.

Martron

you might be talking about the retention bonds here.

this is money which is paid as an insurance to complete properties if they are only partially constructed.

i am not sure of the legalities if they are not constructed at all. but i know that there is a large amount of legal work to be done beofre such a bond can be released.

Sizzler

Have a look at the size of their office in Swords and that should answer your question. Place is laden with paper pushers :mad: They took on planners to cope with the CT and what are they doing now....zzzzzzzzzz

LeoB

Could be a hit for some band
"Where have all the €uros gone"

We simply didnt have proper structures in place, simple structures to stop cowboys building estates and leaving them in a mess for Fingal and other councils to finish. Ultimatley it comes out of our pockets each time these cowboys get away with it. But sure wont some of them get locked up;)

I find it hard to believe ALL or most of the money was wasted. Its really hard to believe people in public office working for the betterment of us all were so thick. Developers did not contribute enough to the basic infrastructure by providing even small playgrounds in new estates or bus stop shelters. Look at the hassle some estates have had and still have getting lights switched on or grass cut.

But it was only local authorities it was going on everywhere.

Next Tuesday an announcment will be made on the allocation of funds for a roads programme, repairs and upgrades. Where are they going to start in N.C.D.?

The challenge now I believe is how can they generate money without fleecing us again with charges?

One former Fingal C.C. worker said the place was overstaffed. It takes 5 people to go and look at a road that needs work on it and this I have witnessed. Then you get "ah we cant do that without talking to the other lads" (in some other section" and you end up with a load of yellow jackets and hard hats who play politics with each other at our expense and the job drags on. This inter section politics needs to be cut out.

That said I have found them all individually nice to deal with and perhaps less red tape and we would actually see things happen in a reasonable timeframe and be less cynical towards them

dan_d

LeoB wrote: »

Next Tuesday an announcment will be made on the allocation of funds for a roads programme, repairs and upgrades. Where are they going to start in N.C.D.?

They'll start with any roads that Obama and Queen Elizabeth will travel on, see or just generally be in the area of.:D

The Hill Billy

@LeoB - I think that it is unfair to say that all or most of the money was wasted. Sure, there was a lot misspent over the years. But at the same time I feel that by & large we are well served by FCC in the services they provide.

Corsendonk

LeoB wrote: »

Could be a hit for some band
"Where have all the €uros gone"

We simply didnt have proper structures in place, simple structures to stop cowboys building estates and leaving them in a mess for Fingal and other councils to finish. Ultimatley it comes out of our pockets each time these cowboys get away with it. But sure wont some of them get locked up;)

I find it hard to believe ALL or most of the money was wasted. Its really hard to believe people in public office working for the betterment of us all were so thick. Developers did not contribute enough to the basic infrastructure by providing even small playgrounds in new estates or bus stop shelters. Look at the hassle some estates have had and still have getting lights switched on or grass cut.

But it was only local authorities it was going on everywhere.

Next Tuesday an announcment will be made on the allocation of funds for a roads programme, repairs and upgrades. Where are they going to start in N.C.D.?

The challenge now I believe is how can they generate money without fleecing us again with charges?

One former Fingal C.C. worker said the place was overstaffed. It takes 5 people to go and look at a road that needs work on it and this I have witnessed. Then you get "ah we cant do that without talking to the other lads" (in some other section" and you end up with a load of yellow jackets and hard hats who play politics with each other at our expense and the job drags on. This inter section politics needs to be cut out.

That said I have found them all individually nice to deal with and perhaps less red tape and we would actually see things happen in a reasonable timeframe and be less cynical towards them

In fairness we don't seem to be overstaffed in Cllrs like some councils in the country.

Fingal- 24 Cllrs in 5 wards(pop 239813 in 2006)
Leitrim Council - 22 Cllrs in 4 wards(28,950 in 2006)

Roscommon County Council has 4 Chief Fire Officers if Ming Flanagan can be believed, more than New York. 22 in the entire country while Scotland has 8.

Hopefully the IMF can be used as a good excuse to get rid of the excess fat in Irish County Councils.

wow sierra

As far as I know there are restrictions on spending by County Councils imposed by Central Government - only income generated during the year can be spent that year. While there is the illusion of Local Government most local spending is dependant on the Government for both funding and sanction.

As regards being overstaffed, there has been no recruitment since 2008 and a huge number of people have left in that time.

LeoB

Hill Billy wrote: »

@LeoB - I think that it is unfair to say that all or most of the money was wasted. Sure, there was a lot misspent over the years. But at the same time I feel that by & large we are well served by FCC in the services they provide.

I meant it like, I find it hard to believ there was as much waste as some people make out. However we do pay for most of the services provided not that I am complaining as I am happy to pay for my services.

Overstaffing is a problem all over the place or is it overstaffing in the wrong areas?

Corsendonk

Wow, overall some great feedback on the service and cost of the Panda Waste service in Fingal. How come the FCC waste service costs so much for customers yet loses money year on year? Surely Panda must be losing a fortune?

tbh

Fingal also have to provide recycling facilities, bottle banks, clothes banks etc. Do panda have to service every area, or can they just pick, say, urban high-density areas?

Corsendonk

tbh wrote: »

Fingal also have to provide recycling facilities, bottle banks, clothes banks etc. Do panda have to service every area, or can they just pick, say, urban high-density areas?

Don't other 3rd parties do most of this in the area? Rehab and Wee Ireland?

If Panda can cherry pick high density areas it means that the FCC service will continue to become more unprofitable every year. Has the FCC spending reduce in this area seening that they have fewer customers to service?

Eoineo

I'd be surprised if the lower amount of customers has reduced FingalCoCo's costs for waste management by much. Take my road for instance. About 30% of residents use Panda. Fingal still have to cover my road for the 70% of the residents who pay them for the service. If Panda took over a whole estate then it'd be a different matter I think.

Jimdagym

Eoineo wrote: »

I'd be surprised if the lower amount of customers has reduced FingalCoCo's costs for waste management by much. Take my road for instance. About 30% of residents use Panda. Fingal still have to cover my road for the 70% of the residents who pay them for the service. If Panda took over a whole estate then it'd be a different matter I think.

Is it not the disposal of the waste where the real cost is though? So the Panda 30% could actually represent quite a bit of saving.

Eoineo

Do they not dispose of it at their own landfills so the cost remains the same as they're maintaining them anyway? Apologies if that's a thick question.

bcmf

AFAIK and I stand to be corrected here:
but Panda will be taking over ALL of the refuse collection in Fingal.
Watch the charges soar when that happens.
I know Fingal CC and the 'binmen' were having a meeting about this a few weeks back but didnt hear the outcome. But it was the workers who were opposing it as it seemed that FCC were pushing it through.

Eoineo

I will be extremely disappointed to see that happen. The quality of service I receive from Fingal County Council bin men can't be compared to Panda. From something as small as a wave to the toddler in the morning to physically moving my bin from the front doorstep to the truck & back when I'm unwell and not able to do it myself. They are such a reliable and good natured group, that makes me so sad.

shanered

I know this thread is asking where did all of Fingal's money go, but the issue is bigger, its where did all of Ireland's money go? Where is all our tax payer's money gone/going?

Martron

check out the latest live register numbers...... thats where.

wow sierra

Eoineo wrote: »

I will be extremely disappointed to see that happen. The quality of service I receive from Fingal County Council bin men can't be compared to Panda. From something as small as a wave to the toddler in the morning to physically moving my bin from the front doorstep to the truck & back when I'm unwell and not able to do it myself. They are such a reliable and good natured group, that makes me so sad.

I think that is the issue for a lot of people - Fingal Staff go a bit beyond the call of duty. During the snow they picked up bins where Private companies wouldn't bother. Also Fingal collect free from unemployed/old age pensioners etc. Private companies won't do that. Wages and conditions of employment would be better in Fingal than in the private companies, and maybe people don't care about that, but surely people should have a living wage and pride in their job. They are more inclined to care about the customer if they have.

It looks like the days of the Council collection are numbered anyway so we will all find out soon enough how wonderful the alternative is.

Jimdagym

I'm not knockg any of your points sierra, I'm just adding Panda also collected in the snow, and on Stephens day two christmases ago. And as I have previously said, they will take extra rubbish beside the bin.
Not knocking the fine fingal council binmen, I just wanted to add, for balance.

LeoB

wow sierra wrote: »

I think that is the issue for a lot of people - Fingal Staff go a bit beyond the call of duty. During the snow they picked up bins where Private companies wouldn't bother. Also Fingal collect free from unemployed/old age pensioners etc. Private companies won't do that. Wages and conditions of employment would be better in Fingal than in the private companies, and maybe people don't care about that, but surely people should have a living wage and pride in their job. They are more inclined to care about the customer if they have.

It looks like the days of the Council collection are numbered anyway so we will all find out soon enough how wonderful the alternative is.

Fair point and credit where its due.

So if Panda do get to take over fully from F.C.C I think their prices will go up substantially but will Fingal recieve money for each bin Panda pick up? Can Panda cherrypick where they will pick up bins? Like some of the proposed postal operators, No country lanes or lone pick ups in very rural areas?

shanered

We could all be millionaires with the money thrown at anglo and the banks....I wouldn't even blame the live register.

Corsendonk

Jimdagym wrote: »

I'm not knockg any of your points sierra, I'm just adding Panda also collected in the snow, and on Stephens day two christmases ago. And as I have previously said, they will take extra rubbish beside the bin.
Not knocking the fine fingal council binmen, I just wanted to add, for balance.

Not to forget before the days of FCC if you got a job as a bin man you were a made man in a kind of goodfellas way. You could finish the round before 11, get paid for a full day and have a nice little earner in the afternoon like window cleaning that would pay your pub money. Then you had the tax free Xmas tips. Another job that is no longer as good as it use to be for the employee.

golfwallah

Why are we surprised Fingal Co. Co. is running out of money – your money? While member golf clubs engage in a price war, Fingal County Council Public Golf Courses such as Corballis & Elm Green reported losses of €610,000 for 3 years up to 2010. But Council Officials say they are not losing money - these are just “subsidies”. Thank you Mr. Taxpayer!
The Council is also pumping capital funding into these loss makers, while private clubs are starved of finance from the banks. Quote from Fingal Co. Co. published budget for 2011:
"The Parks Division continues to maintain public Golf courses at Elm Green, Castleknock, Dublin 15, Corballis, Donabate, and Malahide Demesne. It is intended to transfer a further portion of membership fees in 2011 to capital from both Corballis and Elm Green in the sum of €140,000 to provide for the ongoing improvement of these courses.
A provision of €100,000 has also been made for transfer to capital in Budget 2011 to fund various outstanding capital balances".
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Publication...get%202011.pdf

Eoineo

Time I updated this thread relating to funding for community initiatives.

In the past number of weeks Fingal County Council have approved funding for a number of Integration Projects & Summer Projects for community groups in the County. Anecdotally the funding is slightly down on previous years but it is heartening to see that the Council is still prioritising supports for volunteer groups and their projects over the next number of months.

dsmythy

Does the council release to the public a breakdown of what they are spending money on?

EDIT: Found it

Corsendonk

I see that FCC is borrowing 6.5 million Euro's to finance its pet project in Malahide Castle were once the model exhibition was.

golfwallah

Government should cut their budget by at least 15% and require them to find the necessary savings without cutting essential services. Running golf courses is not an essential service and should be contracted out at no cost to the council. There are plenty of clubs around cutting one anothers throats to pick up this business from the council.

dsmythy

How does it cost €4 million a year for street cleaning?

Eoineo

Considering the size of the County the cost of €4 million doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Take any main street in a large town or village on a Sunday morning and there is a large amount of cleaning to be done on the one day alone. I'm also assuming street cleaning includes after big festivals such as The Rás.

golfwallah

Draft Budget 2011 is €249.0m - down a paltry 1.47% on the adopted budget for 2010. Are these guys really serious about finding savings at this time of crisis in Ireland’s history.
If Senior Management in the council can't do better than this, they are not doing their jobs properly and whoever appointed them should ask the top man to resign, unless he/she can do very much better in the current economic environment.
For example, the Recreation & Amenity Budget for 2011 is made up of expenditure €33.2m as against income of a mere €3.5m on the following activities:
Leisure Exp € 2.0m Inc. €0.6
Library & Archival Exp €12.0m Inc. €0.8
Outdoor Leisure Exp €13.0m Inc. €1.5
Community Sport & Rec Exp € 2.6m Inc. €0.4
Arts Programme Exp € 3.6m Inc. €0.1
Total Exp €33.2m Inc. €3.5

The net cost of just under €30.0m is just unacceptable.
With a bit of imagination the net cost of this budget could be cut significantly. Might be unpopular in some quarters, but if the current county manager can’t do it, his/her boss should get someone else who can.

Corsendonk

Eoineo wrote: »

Considering the size of the County the cost of €4 million doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Take any main street in a large town or village on a Sunday morning and there is a large amount of cleaning to be done on the one day alone. I'm also assuming street cleaning includes after big festivals such as The Rás.

Why a Sunday?

Eoineo

Corsendonk wrote: »

Why a Sunday?

After Saturday night's drinking. Walk around early on a Sunday morning and it can be really disgusting.

Eoineo

golfwallah wrote: »

Draft Budget 2011 is €249.0m - down a paltry 1.47% on the adopted budget for 2010. Are these guys really serious about finding savings at this time of crisis in Ireland’s history.
If Senior Management in the council can't do better than this, they are not doing their jobs properly and whoever appointed them should ask the top man to resign, unless he/she can do very much better in the current economic environment.
For example, the Recreation & Amenity Budget for 2011 is made up of expenditure €33.2m as against income of a mere €3.5m on the following activities:
Leisure Exp € 2.0m Inc. €0.6
Library & Archival Exp €12.0m Inc. €0.8
Outdoor Leisure Exp €13.0m Inc. €1.5
Community Sport & Rec Exp € 2.6m Inc. €0.4
Arts Programme Exp € 3.6m Inc. €0.1
Total Exp €33.2m Inc. €3.5

The net cost of just under €30.0m is just unacceptable.
With a bit of imagination the net cost of this budget could be cut significantly. Might be unpopular in some quarters, but if the current county manager can’t do it, his/her boss should get someone else who can.

The "green spaces" initiative has been quite unpopular in some areas and it was designed to cut costs. There is always going to be a radical difference between income and expenditure in a Council because it's a public service. As I understand it the income comes from other sources, the costs of the expenditure is raised from the Dept of Local Government. I don't know whether it's supplied to each Council based on a per capita payment or on their budgets as submitted for the year ahead.