Are the Dissident Republican Parties really Cults??

dermot1979

I'll start by saying, (unsurprisingly), im not in political party, a nationalist, or any of that. Ii simply want people who may have joined, are still a member, or just curious, to answer the following questions and have a think about it.

I the reason i wanted to do this came from a friend who has joined one of these groups in the past few months. I noticed a change in him in the last while. take something like the PSNI. Now if you google it you will see there is corruption. It quite easy as anyone will tell you this group was highly corrupt back in the RUC day but things are gradually changing for the better thankfull. its only natural like any group which has to to bring two clashing sides together. probably the most obvious change is the increase in catholics from 1% in the beginning to over 20% or above now. However please dont comment on this subject. What my friend is concerned about is all the bad press. Because that supports the way he has been made to believe things are. If i tell him that its been mostly catholics that have been killed by the disidents he doesnt care and says 'they knew what they were getting into when they joined' a normal person blood would boil at that. yes buts its not right that young lads are getting killed doing their job. anyway this is sort of cult mentality, he will answer with a slogan. (below is a questionaire on cults which asks this)

On another issue he will play old irish music, sothing he has never been interested in, again i like some of that music but i like it for my reasons, he likes it because 'they' the people he will protest with like it.

In the case of the queen coming i tried to tell him that even if he says he has nothing against the english people (yet, but we will see if that changes) i meantioned a show called Britains got tallent and how everyone wants to perform for the queen, because a major population love her and see her as the a identity of who they are, if he protests, which he has a right too, the english people over here will see it as they have a dislike of them. he doesnt seem to get this and rants on about the tyranny and the history of the past. I studied history, i know this, but i dont think he can get around his head what his group are saying and what is fact. (question 5)

He has taken on this superior way to him, thats i dont really understand the cause, that Ireland should be united. That ireland is a state conditioned into thinking the north is not ours. I tell him id love a united ireland, i think most of britain who pay three billion a year to fund it, would be delighted with the extra cash. I tell him that solgiers in the Uk dont want to be on the belfast streets watching their backs. Its just a fact that in a democratic state the majority of the people are unionist and see britain are their home and until that changes nothing can change. We all have to live in peace and get along. This superior thing isnt him at all, but like cults (question 4 below)

look they are lots of other things i notice that are cult like and i wanted to hear from you guys think after going through the questions below, how many are yes and no from what you have seen. If someone is a nationalist i dont mean to offend you and please look at this as a friendly debate. I would be delighted if you can reassure me that what he is joining is harmless and healthy for him.


1) Does your group claim to be the only "Way"?

2) Are you told there is no alternative?

3) Are you told leaving means certain degeneration, death or relapse?

4) Do members see themselves as different from society, special, chosen pioneers or on a mission?

5) Do you feel strong pressure to conform?

6) Do dissenters face rebuke or isolation?

7) Are there answers, clichés, quotes & slogans for everything?

8) Is your main social life within the group?

9) Do you spend huge amounts of time in group activities?

10) Are you expected to make regular confessions of private issues?

11) Do you ask the group for advice on life decisions before acting?

12) Are there many "clones" in the group?

13) Do you have a personal mentor, sponsor or inspector?

14) Does the group claim to be ultra democratic?

15) Are there favorites, cliques and secret circles, hidden hierarchies?

16) Are there rituals, initiations, proclamations, charters, ceremonies?

17) Does the group offer certainty over uncertainty; absolute truths, black and white answers in the name of religion or science?

18) Is a living or dead leader venerated?

19) Do leaders flatter, cajole and rebuke to manipulate members for control, power, money and/or sex?

20) Has the leader ever been the member of another political, social or religious sect?

21) Are other groups ridiculed or lied about?


i got the questionaire from here: http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/questionaire.htm

i saw another ten questionaires on cults , but they all ask the same kind of questions. If someone has any books or links that discuss politics and cults please let me know and id be happy to discuss, if im able of it! thanks for reading this rather long post.

FTA69

You can apply the above criteria to many organisations; from the Irish Countrywoman's Association to the GAA to the Labour Party. Everything is context.

Wolfe Tone

No, they are not cults.

dermot1979

FTA69 wrote: »

You can apply the above criteria to many organisations; from the Irish Countrywoman's Association to the GAA to the Labour Party. Everything is context.

I agree you can aplly it to many sections of society but with Cults, like scienetology and mormans, they can cause you danger and issolate you from your friends and family.

what damage you may ask: in the case of my friend, he has fallen out with two groups of friends, because they disagree with his strong views, they have not pushed him away but he has just knocked his friendship with them on the head. Secondly, he has become quite angry when he is drinking esp, (which im sure we have all done more than once!) but its happening quite often now. Thirdly he has really got his back up with his family and maybe even lost some of his motivation to go back to college. He quit his job a while back and was supposed to go back to DIT, think he may miss that if he doesnt focus.

With respect for your valid point, The GAA and the Irish Countrywomens Association could hardly be accused of doing that.

I'm trying to stripe politics from the discussion an look at what society does in its angry circles.

dermot1979

dermot1979 wrote: »

I agree you can aplly it to many sections of society but with Cults, like scienetology and mormans, they can cause you danger and issolate you from your friends and family.

what damage you may ask: in the case of my friend, he has fallen out with two groups of friends, because they disagree with his strong views, they have not pushed him away but he has just knocked his friendship with them on the head. Secondly, he has become quite angry when he is drinking esp, (which im sure we have all done more than once!) but its happening quite often now. Thirdly he has really got his back up with his family and maybe even lost some of his motivation to go back to college. He quit his job a while back and was supposed to go back to DIT, think he may miss that if he doesnt focus.

With respect for your valid point, The GAA and the Irish Countrywomens Association could hardly be accused of doing that.

I'm trying to stripe politics from the discussion an look at what society does in its angry circles.

one last thing, because if his involvement, his 'leader' says his house could get raided, that means i will get raided as i share a gaff along with another girl.

dermot1979

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

No, they are not cults.

Thanks for your interest Wolf tone, why do you think they ae cults? also Do you have any experience of them, i would be keen to hear it.

FUNKY LOVER

dermot1979 wrote: »

one last thing, because if his involvement, his 'leader' says his house could get raided, that means i will get raided as i share a gaff along with another girl.

I read this 5 times and still haven't a breeze what your on about.

neil_hosey

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

I read this 5 times and still haven't a breeze what your on about.

are you serious?:?

hes saying him and another girl share a house with his friend who joined said organisation..


are you trying to tell me you couldnt get that??

oscarBravo

dermot1979 wrote: »

If i tell him that its been mostly catholics that have been killed by the disidents he doesnt care and says 'they knew what they were getting into when they joined'...

"She was asking for it, dressing like that..."

KeithAFC

Can't they just be called lunatics? Cult? Perhaps.

FUNKY LOVER

neil_hosey wrote: »

are you serious?:?

hes saying him and another girl share a house with his friend who joined said organisation..


are you trying to tell me you couldnt get that??

Well seems as he is saying his house will get raided because he shares it with another girl,ye I didn't get it.The way he phrased it didn't make sense.

Now climb down from there my good man.

Wolfe Tone

dermot1979 wrote: »

Thanks for your interest Wolf tone, why do you think they ae cults? also Do you have any experience of them, i would be keen to hear it.

I don't know how quite to put this... You are talking complete rubbish.


I'm not a member of any of these organisations but I know some people who are members. The lads I know outside the internet I don't really get on with due to major differences in opinion. But they arent in cults, they just strongly believe in what they say.

They are simply political organisations in nature, like any other. Sure you mightn't like what they say, but they are no more a cult that SF, FF, Labor etc are. Quite frankly this is a ridiculous topic.


Depending on where you live and what your mates position is you may get raided. Unlikely though.

what damage you may ask: in the case of my friend, he has fallen out with two groups of friends, because they disagree with his strong views, they have not pushed him away but he has just knocked his friendship with them on the head.

What exactly is the big deal here? They have opposite views so they had a tiff and fell out, not exactly the first time that has happened. I had a major falling out before with a friend over his stance on parental responsibilities and attitude towards abortion. People disagree and fall out as a result.

Secondly, he has become quite angry when he is drinking esp, (which im sure we have all done more than once!) but its happening quite often now.

Eh... Dont see how you can blame that on RSF or whatever group he joined.

Thirdly he has really got his back up with his family and maybe even lost some of his motivation to go back to college. He quit his job a while back and was supposed to go back to DIT, think he may miss that if he doesnt focus.

Again you want to blame this on him being republican?



OP I think you have serious issues with your friend, talk to him and dont try and pretend that he has been brainwashed or is trapped in a cult.

dermot1979

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

I read this 5 times and still haven't a breeze what your on about.

his 'leader' , lets call him Tom Cruise for the laugh, warned him that the gardai were stepping up their raid numbers prior to the queens visit. That means that members who were at the protests would have the following done to them, the doorbell will ring aound 8am, two plain clothes officers will search everything in the house for explosive materials , guns etc. In quite a few cases they take camera and laptops to check for emails to dissident droups.

i share an appartment with this lad and another girl, the gardai will also raid our rooms incase we have anything. His leader, Tom!, has said they are just trying to intimidate you and turn you of protesting. hope that explains Funky

Wolfe Tone

dermot1979 wrote: »

his 'leader' , lets call him Tom Cruise for the laugh, warned him that the gardai were stepping up their raid numbers prior to the queens visit. That means that members who were at the protests would have the following done to them, the doorbell will ring aound 8am, two plain clothes officers will search everything in the house for explosive materials , guns etc. In quite a few cases they take camera and laptops to check for emails to dissident droups.

IRA@gmail.com?

If they don't have a warrant dont let them in, if he is just an ordinary member nothing will happen.

i share an appartment with this lad and another girl, the gardai will also raid our rooms incase we have anything. His leader, Tom!, has said they are just trying to intimidate you and turn you of protesting. hope that explains Funky

Tom is right.

FUNKY LOVER

dermot1979 wrote: »

his 'leader' , lets call him Tom Cruise for the laugh, warned him that the gardai were stepping up their raid numbers prior to the queens visit. That means that members who were at the protests would have the following done to them, the doorbell will ring aound 8am, two plain clothes officers will search everything in the house for explosive materials , guns etck. In quite a few cases they take camera and laptops to check for emails to dissident droups.

i share an appartment with this lad and another girl, the gardai will also raid our rooms incase we have anything. His leader, Tom!, has said they are just trying to intimidate you and turn you of protesting. hope that explains Funky

All you had to say was you share a house with him and another girl but you never mentioned him in it.

I get it now!

Our man in Havana

KeithAFC wrote: »

Can't they just be called lunatics? Cult? Perhaps.

I would agree 100% with you.

dermot1979

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I don't know how quite to put this... You are talking complete rubbish.


I'm not a member of any of these organisations but I know some people who are members. The lads I know outside the internet I don't really get on with due to major differences in opinion. But they arent in cults, they just strongly believe in what they say.

They are simply political organisations in nature, like any other. Sure you mightn't like what they say, but they are no more a cult that SF, FF, Labor etc are. Quite frankly this is a ridiculous topic.


Depending on where you live and what your mates position is you may get raided. Unlikely though.




What exactly is the big deal here? They have opposite views so they had a tiff and fell out, not exactly the first time that has happened. I had a major falling out before with a friend over his stance on parental responsibilities and attitude towards abortion. People disagree and fall out as a result.



Eh... Dont see how you can blame that on RSF or whatever group he joined.



Again you want to blame this on him being republican?



OP I think you have serious issues with your friend, talk to him and dont try and pretend that he has been brainwashed or is trapped in a cult.

I know im not talking ****e because i see the changes in this person and they scare me.

Falling out with friends happens but not to such numbers. its amazing how naieve these the young members are. they really believe that everything is a big conspiracy.

your advice on pretending to be brain washed, i think thats a bad idea because i may get brainwashed myself and think im a wonderful young freedom fighter hero of this fine green land, who is going to join up one land (that is majority prodtestant and dont want to) with another land (who are too poor to afford the support but would like too one day). Thats the romantic nonesense these lads believe in.

Wolfe Tone

dermot1979 wrote: »

I know im not talking ****e because i see the changes in this person and they scare me.

Falling out with friends happens but not to such numbers. its amazing how naieve these the young members are. they really believe that everything is a big conspiracy.

your advice on pretending to be brain washed, i think thats a bad idea because i may get brainwashed myself and think im a wonderful young freedom fighter hero of this fine green land, who is going to join up one land (that is majority prodtestant and dont want to) with another land (who are too poor to afford the support but would like too one day). Thats the romantic nonesense these lads believe in.

Hmmm, so I was right this is just a thinly veiled go at republicans.



So which org did he join?

32CSM?
Republican Sinn Fein?
Real Sinn Fein?
Republican Network for Unity?

dermot1979

oscarBravo wrote: »

"She was asking for it, dressing like that..."

ah yeah bravo, thats really what it surmounts to, 'everyone is wrong but our son'...

dermot1979

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Hmmm, so I was right this is just a thinly veiled go at republicans.



So which org did he join?

32CSM?
Republican Sinn Fein?
Real Sinn Fein?
Republican Network for Unity?

Wolftone, i think you should read the post from the beginning . I am not having a go as you say at republicans juts pointing out how so many of their ideas and methods do fall right inside a cult mentality. You seem to know a lot about the different groups, are you sure your not one of the fine brave heroes of irelands freedom. god help you if you are. I guess with a name like wolftone its a high likely hood.

dermot1979

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

IRA@gmail.com?

If they don't have a warrant dont let them in, if he is just an ordinary member nothing will happen.


Tom is right.

Wolftone, im glad of your contribution but i think your are going of the topic, but i will give you the details.

They always get warrants before they arrive, and according to one of their speakers on newstalk they often break down the door without ringing the bell. I have mentioned above that 'tom cruise of the cult' believes its intimidation. That they dont think they will NOT find anything. There is a strong case to believe this as some homes have been raided several times a year.

I would like to add i have no sympathy, there are countless political parties that would be suit they better than standing on the street with banners, in my opinion.

dermot1979

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

All you had to say was you share a house with him and another girl but you never mentioned him in it.

I get it now!

sorry yeah, i was at work trying to multi task, i may have rushed that in!

blahfckingblah

dermot1979 wrote: »

I would like to add i have no sympathy, there are countless political parties that would be suit they better than standing on the street with banners, in my opinion.

uh-huh....
i dont think standing on a street with banners makes you a cult member :cool:

FTA69

You still haven't made a convincing case that Republicanism is like a cult, not at all. Comparing a belief in Irish unity to some mad, lofty nonsense beheld by the likes of the Davidians or the Scientologists is hyberbolic in the extreme, especially considering it's a widely held view in Irish society. Secondly, the ideals of Irish Republicanism are the nominal bases on which this state was constructed, and for decades it was the primary motivation of politics in Ireland.

As Wolfe Tone (the name of another deluded cultist) said, your buddy just has different opinions to you, get over it. He sounds like he may be a bit forceful in expressing his opinions, that's a personal problem he has to deal with and something he may snap out of. Or not. Still has no correlation with Republicanism being a cult though.

As for Garda harrasment, that is a regular occurrence yes. You'll find the cops monitor all opposing political tendencies and also have a record of harrassing and monitoring organisations as diverse as student groups and insignificant left-wing parties. It doesn't mean that Republicanism is a dangerous cult, it means that the cops will attempt to clamp down on ideals they deem subversive to the status quo.

Bottle_of_Smoke

This sounds like something Patrick Kielty would come out with.

zuroph

Its brainwashing, but not a cult.

caseyann

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

IRA@gmail.com?

If they don't have a warrant dont let them in, if he is just an ordinary member nothing will happen.



Tom is right.

I was at a party good few years back in a Republican bar in Dublin,following two weeks had special branch sitting on the end of the road.
I will say one of the best nights i ever had and the friendship and warmness was so nice and felt really at home.

zuroph wrote: »

Its brainwashing, but not a cult.

Its not brainwashing or a cult.I think you will find most people who join can make such a choice all by their lonesome.

zuroph

caseyann wrote: »

Its not brainwashing or a cult.I think you will find most people who join can make such a choice all by their lonesome.

for someone to suddenly start saying that murdering someone for being a policeman is justified because "they knew what they were getting into" is not a normal rational thought process.

caseyann

zuroph wrote: »

for someone to suddenly start saying that murdering someone for being a policeman is justified because "they knew what they were getting into" is not a normal rational thought process.

Not to you maybe not to them it is,just as it is to British and American soldiers etc.... when they head into other peoples countries to fight the so called war on terror.And dont tell me they dont do covert operations taking out people.
Same auld same auld line.

Sunnyisland

Your all a shower of cults
















:osorry:o

nesf

FTA69 wrote: »

You still haven't made a convincing case that Republicanism is like a cult, not at all.

He didn't make that case at all, he said dissident republicanism rather than mainstream republicanism was a cult. Not sure if I agree but there's a world of difference between the two positions (i.e. being involved in an orginisation that supports terrorism or being involved in one that supports the democratic process).

Wolfe Tone

nesf wrote: »

He didn't make that case at all, he said dissident republicanism rather than mainstream republicanism was a cult. Not sure if I agree but there's a world of difference between the two positions (i.e. being involved in an orginisation that supports terrorism or being involved in one that supports the democratic process).

I always laugh at that, dissenting from what? If anything SF have dissented from traditional mainstream physical force republicanism.

zuroph

caseyann wrote: »

Not to you maybe not to them it is,just as it is to British and American soldiers etc.... when they head into other peoples countries to fight the so called war on terror.And dont tell me they dont do covert operations taking out people.
Same auld same auld line.

what has that got to do with a northern irish person working in the northern irish police service?! They're local, protecting the peace. that does not make them a legitimate target, ever.

Sunnyisland

In my opinion republicanism in this country whether it be dissident or otherwise is more of a type of Tradition that has and does be passed down from some generation to generation and now way is it a cult,

Wolfe Tone

zuroph wrote: »

what has that got to do with a northern irish person working in the northern irish police service?! They're local, protecting the peace. that does not make them a legitimate target, ever.

I think Casey is saying that he knew the risks when he signed up, ie might get hurt/killed during the course of duty and the reality in the north is that yes, PSNI people will get attacked and killed.

zuroph

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think Casey is saying that he knew the risks when he signed up, ie might get hurt/killed during the course of duty and the reality in the north is that yes, PSNI people will get attacked and killed.

doesnt make the excuse any more rational. murder is murder.

caseyann

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think Casey is saying that he knew the risks when he signed up, ie might get hurt/killed during the course of duty and the reality in the north is that yes, PSNI people will get attacked and killed.

Unfortunately .

Sunnyisland

zuroph wrote: »

doesnt make the excuse any more rational. murder is murder.

Is that by anyone or just when republican dissidents do it.

zuroph

and as long as people accept others suddenly thinking its justified, then nothing will change. Kids are being born into this programming now. It IS brainwashing.

zuroph

realies wrote: »

Is that by anyone or just when republican dissidents do it.

when anyone does it. what part of murder is murder did you miss?

Sunnyisland

zuroph wrote: »

when anyone does it. what part of murder is murder did you miss?

Didn't miss any of it,

Wolfe Tone

zuroph wrote: »

and as long as people accept others suddenly thinking its justified, then nothing will change. Kids are being born into this programming now. It IS brainwashing.

I think you are having trouble accepting that people can look at this situation and come to different conclusions than you have so you call them brainwashed.


It isnt brainwashing, no more than me being a SF supporter is, or someone else being a Fine Gael supporter.

I think it is foolish to simply bury your head in the sand and call those who come to different conclusions brainwashed.

You need to accept that some people can and do come to these conclusions by themselves. Sobering.

zuroph

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think you are having trouble accepting that people can look at this situation and come to different conclusions than you have so you call them brainwashed.


It isnt brainwashing, no more than me being a SF supporter is, or someone else being a Fine Gael supporter.

I think it is foolish to simply bury your head in the sand and call those who come to different conclusions brainwashed.

You need to accept that some people can and do come to these conclusions by themselves. Sobering.

But this person hasnt, they've joined a group and over time become more radical in their thought process.
There is children who are being taught this point of view from an early age, as fact, as the only way to think. they never have a choice to think otherwise.

I accept that some people are just murderers all by themselves. but a lot of these people are indoctrinated and led towards these murderous thoughts. Why else the use of propaganda. Of lures of money and drugs.

Sunnyisland

Lures of money or drugs, where you getting that from ? The only lure in joining Dissident republicans is in there mind a country united, in more probability Prison or death.

Wolfe Tone

zuroph wrote: »

But this person hasnt, they've joined a group and over time become more radical in their thought process.
There is children who are being taught this point of view from an early age, as fact, as the only way to think. they never have a choice to think otherwise.

"My family have always voted FF" Nothing unique here, kids often have the same views as their folks(I dont, but the brother does)

I accept that some people are just murderers all by themselves. but a lot of these people are indoctrinated and led towards these murderous thoughts. Why else the use of propaganda. Of lures of money and drugs.

What? You are talking about the military groups now rather than the political wings?

This lad has probably joined either the 32CSM or I have a feeling it is probably éirigi(they oppose armed campaign). No lure of money or drugs there.

Are you a member of a political party? Why did you join?


So the lad has become politically aware, would you say the same if this thread was about some lad who joined FG?

zuroph

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

"My family have always voted FF" Nothing unique here, kids often have the same views as their folks(I dont, but the brother does)



What? You are talking about the military groups now rather than the political wings?

This lad has probably joined either the 32CSM or I have a feeling it is probably éirigi(they oppose armed campaign). No lure of money or drugs there.

Are you a member of a political party? Why did you join?


So the lad has become politically aware, would you say the same if this thread was about some lad who joined FG?

there is a clear difference between a political allegiance, and believing the murder of a police officer is justified or socially acceptable. its Worlds apart.

Bottle_of_Smoke

zuroph wrote: »

But this person hasnt, they've joined a group and over time become more radical in their thought process.
There is children who are being taught this point of view from an early age, as fact, as the only way to think. they never have a choice to think otherwise.

The thread's about a guy who joined an anti-GFA political party. This thread wouldn't be here if he actually joined a militant group.

The same things you mention here could be said of people who become vegetarians or feminists.

I accept that some people are just murderers all by themselves. but a lot of these people are indoctrinated and led towards these murderous thoughts. Why else the use of propaganda. Of lures of money and drugs

I think humans find it a lot easier to kill than you think. What you're saying here could be applied to the IRish defence forces or the British army*. Though I doubt you'd describe them as indoctrinated murderers



*No I am not suggesting they are terrorist groups or anything like that, just killing is required in both cases

FTA69

zuroph wrote: »

there is a clear difference between a political allegiance, and believing the murder of a police officer is justified or socially acceptable. its Worlds apart.

So for argument's sake then you could label Dan Breen, Sean Treacy, Michael Collins and Gerry Adams as brainwashed cultists?

Bat Fasterd

zuroph wrote: »

Its brainwashing, but not a cult.

Its neither.

Where is the brainwashing? Is starting smoking brainwashing?

I don't think so but you may see it another way.

People taking the wrong route in life at most IMO. A lot are going to join the rat race, some will head off to the fringe to be artists or something and some will end up doing stuff they shouldn't really have done, robbing banks, dropping bombs in foreign countries or possibly joing organisations they shouldn't really have.

Bit like Heavy meatlers tbh. \0/