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Are the Dissident Republican Parties really Cults??

  • 26-04-2011 10:29pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    I'll start by saying, (unsurprisingly), im not in political party, a nationalist, or any of that. Ii simply want people who may have joined, are still a member, or just curious, to answer the following questions and have a think about it.

    I the reason i wanted to do this came from a friend who has joined one of these groups in the past few months. I noticed a change in him in the last while. take something like the PSNI. Now if you google it you will see there is corruption. It quite easy as anyone will tell you this group was highly corrupt back in the RUC day but things are gradually changing for the better thankfull. its only natural like any group which has to to bring two clashing sides together. probably the most obvious change is the increase in catholics from 1% in the beginning to over 20% or above now. However please dont comment on this subject. What my friend is concerned about is all the bad press. Because that supports the way he has been made to believe things are. If i tell him that its been mostly catholics that have been killed by the disidents he doesnt care and says 'they knew what they were getting into when they joined' a normal person blood would boil at that. yes buts its not right that young lads are getting killed doing their job. anyway this is sort of cult mentality, he will answer with a slogan. (below is a questionaire on cults which asks this)

    On another issue he will play old irish music, sothing he has never been interested in, again i like some of that music but i like it for my reasons, he likes it because 'they' the people he will protest with like it.

    In the case of the queen coming i tried to tell him that even if he says he has nothing against the english people (yet, but we will see if that changes) i meantioned a show called Britains got tallent and how everyone wants to perform for the queen, because a major population love her and see her as the a identity of who they are, if he protests, which he has a right too, the english people over here will see it as they have a dislike of them. he doesnt seem to get this and rants on about the tyranny and the history of the past. I studied history, i know this, but i dont think he can get around his head what his group are saying and what is fact. (question 5)

    He has taken on this superior way to him, thats i dont really understand the cause, that Ireland should be united. That ireland is a state conditioned into thinking the north is not ours. I tell him id love a united ireland, i think most of britain who pay three billion a year to fund it, would be delighted with the extra cash. I tell him that solgiers in the Uk dont want to be on the belfast streets watching their backs. Its just a fact that in a democratic state the majority of the people are unionist and see britain are their home and until that changes nothing can change. We all have to live in peace and get along. This superior thing isnt him at all, but like cults (question 4 below)

    look they are lots of other things i notice that are cult like and i wanted to hear from you guys think after going through the questions below, how many are yes and no from what you have seen. If someone is a nationalist i dont mean to offend you and please look at this as a friendly debate. I would be delighted if you can reassure me that what he is joining is harmless and healthy for him.


    1) Does your group claim to be the only "Way"?

    2) Are you told there is no alternative?

    3) Are you told leaving means certain degeneration, death or relapse?

    4) Do members see themselves as different from society, special, chosen pioneers or on a mission?

    5) Do you feel strong pressure to conform?

    6) Do dissenters face rebuke or isolation?

    7) Are there answers, clichés, quotes & slogans for everything?

    8) Is your main social life within the group?

    9) Do you spend huge amounts of time in group activities?

    10) Are you expected to make regular confessions of private issues?

    11) Do you ask the group for advice on life decisions before acting?

    12) Are there many "clones" in the group?

    13) Do you have a personal mentor, sponsor or inspector?

    14) Does the group claim to be ultra democratic?

    15) Are there favorites, cliques and secret circles, hidden hierarchies?

    16) Are there rituals, initiations, proclamations, charters, ceremonies?

    17) Does the group offer certainty over uncertainty; absolute truths, black and white answers in the name of religion or science?

    18) Is a living or dead leader venerated?

    19) Do leaders flatter, cajole and rebuke to manipulate members for control, power, money and/or sex?

    20) Has the leader ever been the member of another political, social or religious sect?

    21) Are other groups ridiculed or lied about?


    i got the questionaire from here: http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/questionaire.htm

    i saw another ten questionaires on cults , but they all ask the same kind of questions. If someone has any books or links that discuss politics and cults please let me know and id be happy to discuss, if im able of it! thanks for reading this rather long post.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭ FTA69


    You can apply the above criteria to many organisations; from the Irish Countrywoman's Association to the GAA to the Labour Party. Everything is context.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,671 Wolfe Tone


    No, they are not cults.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    FTA69 wrote: »
    You can apply the above criteria to many organisations; from the Irish Countrywoman's Association to the GAA to the Labour Party. Everything is context.

    I agree you can aplly it to many sections of society but with Cults, like scienetology and mormans, they can cause you danger and issolate you from your friends and family.

    what damage you may ask: in the case of my friend, he has fallen out with two groups of friends, because they disagree with his strong views, they have not pushed him away but he has just knocked his friendship with them on the head. Secondly, he has become quite angry when he is drinking esp, (which im sure we have all done more than once!) but its happening quite often now. Thirdly he has really got his back up with his family and maybe even lost some of his motivation to go back to college. He quit his job a while back and was supposed to go back to DIT, think he may miss that if he doesnt focus.

    With respect for your valid point, The GAA and the Irish Countrywomens Association could hardly be accused of doing that.

    I'm trying to stripe politics from the discussion an look at what society does in its angry circles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    dermot1979 wrote: »
    I agree you can aplly it to many sections of society but with Cults, like scienetology and mormans, they can cause you danger and issolate you from your friends and family.

    what damage you may ask: in the case of my friend, he has fallen out with two groups of friends, because they disagree with his strong views, they have not pushed him away but he has just knocked his friendship with them on the head. Secondly, he has become quite angry when he is drinking esp, (which im sure we have all done more than once!) but its happening quite often now. Thirdly he has really got his back up with his family and maybe even lost some of his motivation to go back to college. He quit his job a while back and was supposed to go back to DIT, think he may miss that if he doesnt focus.

    With respect for your valid point, The GAA and the Irish Countrywomens Association could hardly be accused of doing that.

    I'm trying to stripe politics from the discussion an look at what society does in its angry circles.

    one last thing, because if his involvement, his 'leader' says his house could get raided, that means i will get raided as i share a gaff along with another girl.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    No, they are not cults.

    Thanks for your interest Wolf tone, why do you think they ae cults? also Do you have any experience of them, i would be keen to hear it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 FUNKY LOVER


    dermot1979 wrote: »
    one last thing, because if his involvement, his 'leader' says his house could get raided, that means i will get raided as i share a gaff along with another girl.

    I read this 5 times and still haven't a breeze what your on about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭ neil_hosey


    I read this 5 times and still haven't a breeze what your on about.

    are you serious?:?

    hes saying him and another girl share a house with his friend who joined said organisation..


    are you trying to tell me you couldnt get that??


  • Administrators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,592 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭ oscarBravo


    dermot1979 wrote: »
    If i tell him that its been mostly catholics that have been killed by the disidents he doesnt care and says 'they knew what they were getting into when they joined'...
    "She was asking for it, dressing like that..."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 KeithAFC


    Can't they just be called lunatics? Cult? Perhaps.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 FUNKY LOVER


    neil_hosey wrote: »
    are you serious?:?

    hes saying him and another girl share a house with his friend who joined said organisation..


    are you trying to tell me you couldnt get that??

    Well seems as he is saying his house will get raided because he shares it with another girl,ye I didn't get it.The way he phrased it didn't make sense.

    Now climb down from there my good man.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,671 Wolfe Tone


    dermot1979 wrote: »
    Thanks for your interest Wolf tone, why do you think they ae cults? also Do you have any experience of them, i would be keen to hear it.
    I don't know how quite to put this... You are talking complete rubbish.


    I'm not a member of any of these organisations but I know some people who are members. The lads I know outside the internet I don't really get on with due to major differences in opinion. But they arent in cults, they just strongly believe in what they say.

    They are simply political organisations in nature, like any other. Sure you mightn't like what they say, but they are no more a cult that SF, FF, Labor etc are. Quite frankly this is a ridiculous topic.


    Depending on where you live and what your mates position is you may get raided. Unlikely though.


    what damage you may ask: in the case of my friend, he has fallen out with two groups of friends, because they disagree with his strong views, they have not pushed him away but he has just knocked his friendship with them on the head.
    What exactly is the big deal here? They have opposite views so they had a tiff and fell out, not exactly the first time that has happened. I had a major falling out before with a friend over his stance on parental responsibilities and attitude towards abortion. People disagree and fall out as a result.

    Secondly, he has become quite angry when he is drinking esp, (which im sure we have all done more than once!) but its happening quite often now.
    Eh... Dont see how you can blame that on RSF or whatever group he joined.

    Thirdly he has really got his back up with his family and maybe even lost some of his motivation to go back to college. He quit his job a while back and was supposed to go back to DIT, think he may miss that if he doesnt focus.
    Again you want to blame this on him being republican?



    OP I think you have serious issues with your friend, talk to him and dont try and pretend that he has been brainwashed or is trapped in a cult.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    I read this 5 times and still haven't a breeze what your on about.

    his 'leader' , lets call him Tom Cruise for the laugh, warned him that the gardai were stepping up their raid numbers prior to the queens visit. That means that members who were at the protests would have the following done to them, the doorbell will ring aound 8am, two plain clothes officers will search everything in the house for explosive materials , guns etc. In quite a few cases they take camera and laptops to check for emails to dissident droups.

    i share an appartment with this lad and another girl, the gardai will also raid our rooms incase we have anything. His leader, Tom!, has said they are just trying to intimidate you and turn you of protesting. hope that explains Funky


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,671 Wolfe Tone


    dermot1979 wrote: »
    his 'leader' , lets call him Tom Cruise for the laugh, warned him that the gardai were stepping up their raid numbers prior to the queens visit. That means that members who were at the protests would have the following done to them, the doorbell will ring aound 8am, two plain clothes officers will search everything in the house for explosive materials , guns etc. In quite a few cases they take camera and laptops to check for emails to dissident droups.
    [email protected]?

    If they don't have a warrant dont let them in, if he is just an ordinary member nothing will happen.
    i share an appartment with this lad and another girl, the gardai will also raid our rooms incase we have anything. His leader, Tom!, has said they are just trying to intimidate you and turn you of protesting. hope that explains Funky

    Tom is right.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 FUNKY LOVER


    dermot1979 wrote: »
    his 'leader' , lets call him Tom Cruise for the laugh, warned him that the gardai were stepping up their raid numbers prior to the queens visit. That means that members who were at the protests would have the following done to them, the doorbell will ring aound 8am, two plain clothes officers will search everything in the house for explosive materials , guns etck. In quite a few cases they take camera and laptops to check for emails to dissident droups.

    i share an appartment with this lad and another girl, the gardai will also raid our rooms incase we have anything. His leader, Tom!, has said they are just trying to intimidate you and turn you of protesting. hope that explains Funky

    All you had to say was you share a house with him and another girl but you never mentioned him in it.

    I get it now!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,821 ✭✭✭✭ Our man in Havana


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Can't they just be called lunatics? Cult? Perhaps.
    I would agree 100% with you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I don't know how quite to put this... You are talking complete rubbish.


    I'm not a member of any of these organisations but I know some people who are members. The lads I know outside the internet I don't really get on with due to major differences in opinion. But they arent in cults, they just strongly believe in what they say.

    They are simply political organisations in nature, like any other. Sure you mightn't like what they say, but they are no more a cult that SF, FF, Labor etc are. Quite frankly this is a ridiculous topic.


    Depending on where you live and what your mates position is you may get raided. Unlikely though.




    What exactly is the big deal here? They have opposite views so they had a tiff and fell out, not exactly the first time that has happened. I had a major falling out before with a friend over his stance on parental responsibilities and attitude towards abortion. People disagree and fall out as a result.



    Eh... Dont see how you can blame that on RSF or whatever group he joined.



    Again you want to blame this on him being republican?



    OP I think you have serious issues with your friend, talk to him and dont try and pretend that he has been brainwashed or is trapped in a cult.


    I know im not talking ****e because i see the changes in this person and they scare me.

    Falling out with friends happens but not to such numbers. its amazing how naieve these the young members are. they really believe that everything is a big conspiracy.

    your advice on pretending to be brain washed, i think thats a bad idea because i may get brainwashed myself and think im a wonderful young freedom fighter hero of this fine green land, who is going to join up one land (that is majority prodtestant and dont want to) with another land (who are too poor to afford the support but would like too one day). Thats the romantic nonesense these lads believe in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,671 Wolfe Tone


    dermot1979 wrote: »
    I know im not talking ****e because i see the changes in this person and they scare me.

    Falling out with friends happens but not to such numbers. its amazing how naieve these the young members are. they really believe that everything is a big conspiracy.

    your advice on pretending to be brain washed, i think thats a bad idea because i may get brainwashed myself and think im a wonderful young freedom fighter hero of this fine green land, who is going to join up one land (that is majority prodtestant and dont want to) with another land (who are too poor to afford the support but would like too one day). Thats the romantic nonesense these lads believe in.
    Hmmm, so I was right this is just a thinly veiled go at republicans.



    So which org did he join?

    32CSM?
    Republican Sinn Fein?
    Real Sinn Fein?
    Republican Network for Unity?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    "She was asking for it, dressing like that..."

    ah yeah bravo, thats really what it surmounts to, 'everyone is wrong but our son'...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Hmmm, so I was right this is just a thinly veiled go at republicans.



    So which org did he join?

    32CSM?
    Republican Sinn Fein?
    Real Sinn Fein?
    Republican Network for Unity?

    Wolftone, i think you should read the post from the beginning . I am not having a go as you say at republicans juts pointing out how so many of their ideas and methods do fall right inside a cult mentality. You seem to know a lot about the different groups, are you sure your not one of the fine brave heroes of irelands freedom. god help you if you are. I guess with a name like wolftone its a high likely hood.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    [email protected]?

    If they don't have a warrant dont let them in, if he is just an ordinary member nothing will happen.


    Tom is right.

    Wolftone, im glad of your contribution but i think your are going of the topic, but i will give you the details.

    They always get warrants before they arrive, and according to one of their speakers on newstalk they often break down the door without ringing the bell. I have mentioned above that 'tom cruise of the cult' believes its intimidation. That they dont think they will NOT find anything. There is a strong case to believe this as some homes have been raided several times a year.

    I would like to add i have no sympathy, there are countless political parties that would be suit they better than standing on the street with banners, in my opinion.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ dermot1979


    All you had to say was you share a house with him and another girl but you never mentioned him in it.

    I get it now!

    sorry yeah, i was at work trying to multi task, i may have rushed that in!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭ blahfckingblah


    dermot1979 wrote: »
    I would like to add i have no sympathy, there are countless political parties that would be suit they better than standing on the street with banners, in my opinion.

    uh-huh....
    i dont think standing on a street with banners makes you a cult member :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭ FTA69


    You still haven't made a convincing case that Republicanism is like a cult, not at all. Comparing a belief in Irish unity to some mad, lofty nonsense beheld by the likes of the Davidians or the Scientologists is hyberbolic in the extreme, especially considering it's a widely held view in Irish society. Secondly, the ideals of Irish Republicanism are the nominal bases on which this state was constructed, and for decades it was the primary motivation of politics in Ireland.

    As Wolfe Tone (the name of another deluded cultist) said, your buddy just has different opinions to you, get over it. He sounds like he may be a bit forceful in expressing his opinions, that's a personal problem he has to deal with and something he may snap out of. Or not. Still has no correlation with Republicanism being a cult though.

    As for Garda harrasment, that is a regular occurrence yes. You'll find the cops monitor all opposing political tendencies and also have a record of harrassing and monitoring organisations as diverse as student groups and insignificant left-wing parties. It doesn't mean that Republicanism is a dangerous cult, it means that the cops will attempt to clamp down on ideals they deem subversive to the status quo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,842 ✭✭✭ Bottle_of_Smoke


    This sounds like something Patrick Kielty would come out with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,106 zuroph


    Its brainwashing, but not a cult.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 caseyann


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    [email protected]?

    If they don't have a warrant dont let them in, if he is just an ordinary member nothing will happen.



    Tom is right.
    I was at a party good few years back in a Republican bar in Dublin,following two weeks had special branch sitting on the end of the road.
    I will say one of the best nights i ever had and the friendship and warmness was so nice and felt really at home.
    zuroph wrote: »
    Its brainwashing, but not a cult.

    Its not brainwashing or a cult.I think you will find most people who join can make such a choice all by their lonesome.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,106 zuroph


    caseyann wrote: »
    Its not brainwashing or a cult.I think you will find most people who join can make such a choice all by their lonesome.

    for someone to suddenly start saying that murdering someone for being a policeman is justified because "they knew what they were getting into" is not a normal rational thought process.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 caseyann


    zuroph wrote: »
    for someone to suddenly start saying that murdering someone for being a policeman is justified because "they knew what they were getting into" is not a normal rational thought process.

    Not to you maybe not to them it is,just as it is to British and American soldiers etc.... when they head into other peoples countries to fight the so called war on terror.And dont tell me they dont do covert operations taking out people.
    Same auld same auld line.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭ Sunnyisland


    :p Your all a shower of cults :p
















    :osorry:o


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭ nesf


    FTA69 wrote: »
    You still haven't made a convincing case that Republicanism is like a cult, not at all.

    He didn't make that case at all, he said dissident republicanism rather than mainstream republicanism was a cult. Not sure if I agree but there's a world of difference between the two positions (i.e. being involved in an orginisation that supports terrorism or being involved in one that supports the democratic process).


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