Does Darren Brown cheat ;-)

silverharp

I'm thinking about routines where audience members called up on stage have to write numbers etc on paper where he is not supposed to see it. does he have helpers off stage feeding him information back?
I was googling one of his routines and a thread seemed to suggest that he used these types of "tricks". I was a little dissapointed as he plays on the fact that either uses psychology or goes to extraordinary lenghts to cover all the options.

fergal23

Doubt it. Most of his tricks are bigger than just guessing a number. He maintains that he uses psychological suggestion and misdirection.


It's Derren btw

zuroph

misdirection is the key to your phrasing there. a lot of what he does isnt psychological at all, thats the misdirection. he uses traditional magic methods in his performance. its not "cheating"

silverharp

zuroph wrote: »

misdirection is the key to your phrasing there. a lot of what he does isnt psychological at all, thats the misdirection. he uses traditional magic methods in his performance. its not "cheating"

I'm sure and thats cool. The routine I was thinking off was called 20 questions. From memory one of the objects he guessed was UFO. In Derren's case, if the trick was a helper watching the person write the word down would take away from the performance imo. I did see comments also that said thats not what he did so I'll keep the faith

zuroph

it usually wouldnt be just someone else watching what they drew, as that can be unreliable and depending on circumstances, could be missed..

pfurey101

Does it matter once its entertaining?

deepeedublin

here here pfurey. gotta love derren!

sezz

lol

dil999

just reading his book "Derren Brown, Tricks of the mind" it a great insight into him and the methods he uses to perform his tricks. Or is it???

pedrao15

Hehey, its Derren Brown!
I mean, not the spelling mistake but, it is HIM!

At the beginning of his "Trick of the Mind" series he says in the beginning
that in any case he used stooges and that's not just his word, is a commitment,
like a contract. Nevertheless, he doesn't say that he doesn't do previous hypnosis (in wich he could put a time bomb so he can make one pick a number in the future).
I really not into hypnosis but I like Derren Brown and I have a friend that knows everything about him.

I hope my post was helpful!
Abraços from Brazil!
Pedro A.

7Sins

Yes

zuroph

Care to elaborate 7sins?

7Sins

zuroph wrote: »

Care to elaborate 7sins?

I thought you'd never ask
Well it's either he cheats or he can mind read, so.....he cheats

zuroph

7Sins wrote: »

I thought you'd never ask
Well it's either he cheats or he can mind read, so.....he cheats

Depends how you clarify cheating. its misdirection, but Derren never claims an ability to read minds.

pedrao15

Some people consider Magic cheating.
Of course he can't read minds, but at the same time he don't use actors! Thats Chriss Angel's job!

7Sins

zuroph wrote: »

Depends how you clarify cheating. its misdirection, but Derren never claims an ability to read minds.

Misdirection is more apt, I used "cheat" because the OP did although saying cheat feels like one would have been taken in by the "magic" of it all only to feel "cheated" upon realising theres no such thing as magic

zuroph

Pre-showing can play a huge part in the effects you can achieve, that is correct Pedrao.

zuroph

7Sins wrote: »

Misdirection is more apt, I used "cheat" because the OP did although saying cheat feels like one would have been taken in by the "magic" of it all only to feel "cheated" upon realising theres no such thing as magic

OP was referring to Derrens claims of using psychology. So, not quite magic, but similar. I see where you're coming from though

pedrao15

7Sins wrote: »

...theres no such thing as magic

I dunno if whether I undertood you or not, but if you're a magician, how come you don't believe in magic?

zuroph

pedrao15 wrote: »

I dunno if whether I undertood you or not, but if you're a magician, how come you don't believe in magic?

"magic" doesnt exist. It's illusion.

pedrao15

zuroph wrote: »

"magic" doesnt exist. It's illusion.

I don't know why, but that offends me.

zuroph

pedrao15 wrote: »

I don't know why, but that offends me.

lol. I'm not sure why. magic is the name we give to our art, its trickery, not spells and incantations, but its still a beautiful art, which brings a lot of joy to people when done well.

liah

How much of what he writes in his books is what he actually uses on stage?

(the grammar in that sentence seems really, really wrong to me..)

zuroph

liah wrote: »

How much of what he writes in his books is what he actually uses on stage?

(the grammar in that sentence seems really, really wrong to me..)

depends on the book

A lot of the "psychology" is a smokescreen. its the modern equivalent of blaming psychic powers.

liah

zuroph wrote: »

depends on the book

A lot of the "psychology" is a smokescreen. its the modern equivalent of blaming psychic powers.

I have all of his books at the moment. Not sure where to start if I actually want to learn something though as I don't know what to take seriously.

zuroph

the older you go, generally the more honest I believe
If you have any specific effects you're curious about, PM and we can try break them down.

pedrao15

Don't think too much!
Go out and start stopping people on the streets and trying to stuck their feet on the ground!

pH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLbesxxKzcM

Here's the classic 'messiah', the remote viewing trick starts at about 5:30.

Now obviously Derren 'cheats' as in it's a magic trick, and illusion we all know that.

But at about 8:05 - 8:10 we hear the infamous "Sail through your mind", "Don't go overboard" lines - is this cheating?

And NO I'm not asking if using NLP is cheating, what you see/hear here has nothing to do with bogus claims of NLP.

Another example of similar in Derren's work would be the reveal in the famous Ad-men taxi ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UpUcgPP-YY

pedrao15

What is cheating for you guys? Is it like lying!?
It's like saying that when one bluffs in a game of poker they're cheating or lying!

Looks like magic, sounds like magic, tastes like magic!

mrrobboi

well he does a lot of modern mentalism which incorporates body language nlp hypnosis etc,but he also uses old techniques in effects that he used in shows such "EVENING OF WONDERS" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQKHap8DAbM&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3Dderren%

maximoose

New tour coming to Dublin in March, I cannot wait.

horgan_p

I'd highly recommend it , I'm going to see it in london next month , but I'll be going to Dublin also.

gorilla_image

Not sure what you mean you say Derren Brown 'cheat's?

DB openly admits that he uses trickery and deception, stating that what he does is not magic.

Imho, the 'cheating' is the whole point.

pH

gorilla_image wrote: »

Not sure what you mean you say Derren Brown 'cheat's?

What about those 2 clips above?

Do you consider the bit (8:05 in Messiah) where he says "Sail through your mind" cheating?

Do you consider the whole Ad men explanation segment cheating?

zuroph

Im not sure what you're saying, how is saying "sail through your mind" cheating?

gorilla_image

zuroph wrote: »

Im not sure what you're saying, how is saying "sail through your mind" cheating?

I'm absolutely certain that he's not sailing through anybody's mind. (because he says that he's not). It's clearly and openly trickery - he even admits it. The only thing here I would consider cheating would be if he were to use actors/stooges. He claims not to.

zuroph

in recent times theres been a few more accusations of stoogery. I havent seen any trick yet that has required it, however, I havent seen the last live show.

enfant terrible

zuroph wrote: »

lol. I'm not sure why. magic is the name we give to our art, its trickery, not spells and incantations, but its still a beautiful art, which brings a lot of joy to people when done well.

It's an illusion, zuroph. A trick is something a whore does for money.

zuroph

to quote Blindboy Boatclub "I'm an artist, but I looove money!"

gorilla_image

It would be dissapointing if there was stoogery. His strike rate isn't 100%, some of his shows have shown him fail. I must say I prefer the trick or treat stuff to the live shows. (I supposed you should actually see it live to get the full benefit)The one where he takes a guy to Morocco unawares in one of my favourites. This guy wakes in a market in Marakesh, and is totally disorientated - the first thing I would need in a situation like that is a HUGE piss - the guy was hypnotised for something like 14 hours! :P.

zuroph

hypnotised people can be brought to the jacks all fine and dandy. you could have him awake eyes open but taking nothing in around him other than the toilet break

The "fails" were deliberate too, it adds gravitas to the effect, makes it look more like he's pulling something really difficult off. notably, the off by one on the roulette wheel.

pH

zuroph wrote: »

Im not sure what you're saying, how is saying "sail through your mind" cheating?

How is it not cheating?

Also, what about the ad-men reveal, same thing - there are many many examples of this in his TV work, these 2 aren't anything special, just ones I found clips of first.

It's an recurring theme of Derren's work, in both cases he reproduces drawings, which to give him his due was most likely done fairly, what he does then to highlight his NLP and "suggestion" banter I feel is cheating. Yes some magicians argue that as long has he does the base trick fairly he can get away with what he likes in his false reveals, still to me it stinks.

horgan_p

Key questions when watching any Magician / Mentalist.

1) Did you enjoy the effect ?
2) Were you fooled by the effect ?


If the answer to the above 2 questions are yes then his job is done.
If you dont know how he did it , does it matter if he used NLP , Hypno , Peeks or if Jesus came down from the cross and gave him the answer ?
No.All that matters is that moment of surprise when he reveals the drawing.
That is the essence of magic.

He is under no obligation to reveal his secrets to you or anyone else. And I'd think less of him if he did.

pH

horgan_p wrote: »

Key questions when watching any Magician / Mentalist.

1) Did you enjoy the effect ?
2) Were you fooled by the effect ?


If the answer to the above 2 questions are yes then his job is done.
If you dont know how he did it , does it matter if he used NLP , Hypno , Peeks or if Jesus came down from the cross and gave him the answer ?
No.All that matters is that moment of surprise when he reveals the drawing.
That is the essence of magic.

He is under no obligation to reveal his secrets to you or anyone else. And I'd think less of him if he did.

Fine, but for some there's more to it, a pride in the skill of the profession, rather than your view that the end justifies the means - which is fair enough, you think that nothing else matters, therefore TV trickery, editing suite tom foolery, even stooges are fair game if they produce a good effect. I disagree, but then we all don't agree on everything do we?

Gillington

What do yous think about the Russian Roulette TV show where apparently he was caught going through customs with nothing but blank bullets?

I dont think he cheats. But he does re-takes until he gets it right.

pH

Gillington wrote: »

What do yous think about the Russian Roulette TV show where apparently he was caught going through customs with nothing but blank bullets?

Which is a bit like saying that David Copperfield was caught going through customs with no anti-gravity boots or magic pixie flying dust.

zuroph

the blank bullets thing was a publicity scam too.

Protip; a blank would kill you from point blank range.

So Ph, you feel him giving false explanations is the "cheating"? But magicians have done this since the start of time, some claimed magic powers, some said it was the magic word that did it, some blamed ghosts, some claimed psychic powers, Derren uses "psychology" as his smokescreen. IMO it was a very clever progression to use NLP as the excuse, he simply replace "psychic" with "pychological" and re-opened magic to a market that had grown cynical and would no longer pay to see a "psychic mind reader". Derren has taken the traditional stage show, and dragged it right into the 21st century by getting around the one reason people stopped attending stage shows.

Sofaspud

Gillington wrote: »

What do yous think about the Russian Roulette TV show where apparently he was caught going through customs with nothing but blank bullets?

And as he proved in the show, if he had shot himself in the head with a blank, he would've been in no danger whatsoever!

(other than a hole in the side of his head and permanent hearing damage, that is)

pH

zuroph wrote: »

So Ph, you feel him giving false explanations is the "cheating"? But magicians have done this since the start of time, some claimed magic powers, some said it was the magic word that did it, some blamed ghosts, some claimed psychic powers, Derren uses "psychology" as his smokescreen

No, I don't consider his false explanations as cheating (although others do), not sure what gave you that idea. As I said, I have a problem with "Sail through your mind" at 8:05 in messiah, and pretty much all of the ad men taxi ride reveal(as I said earlier there are many more examples of this these are two that I found clips of first).

My problem is not they are there, it's how he got them there.

zuroph

I think I see what your saying Ph? the post-editing done? TBH it doesnt bother me greatly, its still a false explanation, and packaged into a nice tv show. at the start he says he uses misdirection, I believe that includes false explanations, remember, the trick isnt only being played on the person on the show, but on the people at home.