EU crackdown on herbal 'remedies'

Shulgin

So this is still going ahead? Crazy !

"The new system will protect the health and interests of consumers in Ireland."

More like it will up the sale of big pharma's expensive synthetic products, and make natural remedies less and less available, which would suit them just fine.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/eu-crackdown-on-herbal-remedies-2628345.html

EU crackdown on herbal 'remedies'

From April 30 many herbal products will begin to disappear from the shelves of Ireland's 300 herbal outlets following an EU directive which will regulate medicinal herbs in the same way as pharmaceutical products.
Herbalists claim the regulations will see that many popular herbs disappear entirely. "A license can cost up to €100,000 per herb, which means that manufacturers and retailers will be facing staff losses and even closures," said Jill Bell, president of Irish Association of Health Stores.
"Ironically the safety record of our herbals is impeccable. The well-being of our customers is our primary concern, and in over 40 years there hasn't been a single report of significant side effects," she added.
In a recent statement, the Irish Medicines Board, which will be responsible for the licensing process, said: "The new system will protect the health and interests of consumers in Ireland."
"If the prime concern for this directive is safety, then why are the herbs still on our shelves today?
"When have you ever heard bad stories about echinacea or ginseng, yet it's OK for people to buy paracetamol, which when taken in large amounts can be lethal," said Julie Owens, owner manager of Restore Health Food Shop on Camden Street.
So far, she said only one company has applied for licences for a significant number of herbal products.
- BARBARA McCARTHY

whiteonion

when I talk about a Big Pharma conspiracy people laugh at me, but look at this they want to ban harmless herbal remedies while they for years have allowed dangerous drugs from Big Pharma to stay on the market.

Shulgin

whiteonion wrote: »

when I talk about a Big Pharma conspiracy people laugh at me, but look at this they want to ban harmless herbal remedies while they for years have allowed dangerous drugs from Big Pharma to stay on the market.

People just love to play the "conspiracy nutter" card more and more these days. I suppose it's easier than thinking for yourself.

phasers

What are they getting rid of?

My name is URL

They're not really banning them though are they? All they're doing is enforcing the same regulations that apply to other pharmaceuticals. If the stuff is being sold as an alternative to other medicines or treatments then there's no reason why it shouldn't be put through the same processes or face the same scrutinies.

Hookah

My name is URL wrote: »

They're not really banning them though are they? All they're doing is enforcing the same regulations that apply to other pharmaceuticals. If the stuff is being sold as an alternative to other medicines or treatments then there's no reason why it shouldn't be put through the same processes or face the same scrutinies.

They're not banning them, but at 100,000 for a licence for one herb, as per the article, they might as well be.

liah

Ugh. If people wanted protection from drugs, they wouldn't do drugs. We don't need them making that decision for us.

The hell happened to respecting the idea of personal responsibility and accountability and, you know, basic freedom?

My name is URL

Hookah wrote: »

They're not banning them, but at 100,000 for a licence for one herb, as per the article, they might as well be.

I agree that it's overly expensive and will that it will probably go towards wiping out a huge number of herbalist companies, but what do they expect to happen when they are increasingly marketing their products as alternatives to conventional medicines without any empirical evidence to back it up?

bonzodog2

I wonder where the line is between pharmaceuticals and herbal products ? Its several years since it was legal to buy Hypericum (St. Johns Wort) products here. Are shops going to need a licence to sell thyme next ? Can you sell a herbal product without licencing if you make no medical claims for it I wonder ?

whiteonion

My name is URL wrote: »

I agree that it's overly expensive and will that it will probably go towards wiping out a huge number of herbalist companies, but what do they expect to happen when they are increasingly marketing their products as alternatives to conventional medicines without any empirical evidence to back it up?

To exactly which herbal remedies do you refer to when you say they have no empirical evidence to back it up?

Hookah

My name is URL wrote: »

I agree that it's overly expensive and will that it will probably go towards wiping out a huge number of herbalist companies, but what do they expect to happen when they are increasingly marketing their products as alternatives to conventional medicines without any empirical evidence to back it up?

I remember a statistic from about 10 years ago whereby 80% of medicines hadn't been tested, double-blind tested etc. by the AMA.

I can't find the quote online, but I read it in a Robert Anton Wilson book

If that statistic is true then 80% of Western medicine at that time may not have been any more effective than the placebo effect.

Herbs may or may not be more effective than the placebo effect, but with much less of the nasty side-effects.

For minor ailments, given the choice and the freedom, I'd rather opt for herbs.

Edit; Here's a more recent statistic...http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/85-of-new-drugs-offer-few-benefits-2054972.html

Mr. Incognito

Oh dear.

Drugs Conspiracy Hippies Vs. Dangerous, unregulated etc.

*Gets Popcorn.

(Edit- I see White Onion is here. )

*Gets Malterteasers Bag and Large Drink

ScumLord

Next on the agenda is banning medical praying and hope.

alexa5x5

I’ve tested some of these herbal drugs in the lab I work in, you’d be shocked if you know what’s really in some of them. At best there just herbs, but in a frightening large number of cases they contain active ingredients (that is, the actual pharmacutical drug). An example of this is a male erectile dysfunction herbal remedy that’s available in a number of Irish stores and on line. It’s sold as a herbal remedy but it actually contains the active ingredient found in Viagra. You might think this is a good thing, but what you have to realise is that pharmacutical companies are heavily regulated for a reason; the number one reason is the control and quality of the product they are selling.

UglyBolloxFace

liah wrote: »

Ugh. If people wanted protection from drugs, they wouldn't do drugs. We don't need them making that decision for us.

The hell happened to respecting the idea of personal responsibility and accountability and, you know, basic freedom?

That makes you sound like such an American (yes, I know you're Canadian).

dlofnep

I have to say, I'm dependant on alot of herbs as I've a long-term illness. Modern medicine cannot cure what I have. They tried and failed for 5 years. Wasters. Most medicine is ****e, and only makes you worse. Doctors are quick to pump antibiotics into people which weakens their immune system.

Dave!

dlofnep wrote: »

I have to say, I'm dependant on alot of herbs as I've a long-term illness. Modern medicine cannot cure what I have. They tried and failed for 5 years. Wasters. Most medicine is ****e, and only makes you worse. Doctors are quick to pump antibiotics into people which weakens their immune system.

What herbs are you using?

Sarn

Interestingly if you look at the IMB's site you'll see that it costs under €5000 to have a basic herbal remedy authorised in Ireland (this increases with extra doses etc.). However, it does cost a lot more to have it authorised in other countries at the same time. Apart from the registration the bulk of the cost will come from having to conduct safety studies or getting their manufacturing facilities up to spec.

Herbal remedy authorisation fees

Ultimately this will ensure that the products on the shelves contain what they're supposed to contain. It will also eliminate unsubstantiated claims being made on products.

desertcircus

There's no banning going on here. Just a requirement that people don't sell stuff as a treatment if it doesn't work as a treatment. It's not cheap to conduct the necessary tests, but it's not cheap to design a functioning aeroplane and nobody describes mandatory testing on aeroplane designs a conspiracy by Big Air.

El_Dangeroso

desertcircus wrote: »

There's no banning going on here. Just a requirement that people don't sell stuff as a treatment if it doesn't work as a treatment. It's not cheap to conduct the necessary tests, but it's not cheap to design a functioning aeroplane and nobody describes mandatory testing on aeroplane designs a conspiracy by Big Air.

Aye, most herbal remedies don't make any claims at all on the bottle at the moment. They have misinformed, untrained, unaccountable, minimum-wage health-food shop assistants to do that for them.:D

thunderthing

****ing finally, delighted this is happening.

dlofnep

Dave! wrote: »

What herbs are you using?

Milk-Thistle & chlorella.

cooperguy

About god damn time! Im sick of seeing all this rubbish being peddled without a shred of evidence.

I wonder will this cover homeopathy or just herbal stuff. It would be interesting to see them try prove the effectiveness of that!

ilovelamp2000

This could create more unemployment too. Apparently 1 in every 400,000 people in the EU is a qualified homeopath (They're much more effective at that concentration)

Hookah

It's known that adulterated foods such as white sugar, white flower, msg, trans fatty acids etc. cause massive health problems, yet the powers that be are going to go after a natural herbs. (or is it herbal concoctions?)

Sarn

cooperguy wrote: »

I wonder will this cover homeopathy or just herbal stuff. It would be interesting to see them try prove the effectiveness of that!

Homeopathic medicinal products already need to be authorised prior to sale. My understanding is that they don't need to demonstrate that they work though, just that they are safe and of good quality. Take from that what you will.

Shulgin

Solution, make no health claims on the herbal products, label it 'bath salts' and 'not for human consumption'.

thetonynator

Most medicines were herbal to start with. The ones that worked became MEDICINE, the ones that didn't became Herbal Remedies.

:rolleyes:

The_Minister

Given that we have banned proven remedies like St. John's Wort, I would be very sceptical about how these regulations would be implemented in Ireland.

dlofnep

thetonynator wrote: »

Most medicines were herbal to start with. The ones that worked became MEDICINE, the ones that didn't became Herbal Remedies.

:rolleyes:

Not really..

Owwmykneecap

dlofnep wrote: »

I have to say, I'm dependant on alot of herbs as I've a long-term illness. Modern medicine cannot cure what I have. They tried and failed for 5 years. Wasters. Most medicine is ****e, and only makes you worse. Doctors are quick to pump antibiotics into people which weakens their immune system.

Do you have a brain disease by any chance?

zenno

whiteonion wrote: »

when I talk about a Big Pharma conspiracy people laugh at me, but look at this they want to ban harmless herbal remedies while they for years have allowed dangerous drugs from Big Pharma to stay on the market.

well that was always the strategy of big pharma, they will not stop until all herbal stores and the sale of these herbs are removed from consumers that want to use natural herbs for healing purposes.

the E.U dictating our laws again. this is just the start. also more loss of job's on behalf of the fcuking E.U they can't even regulate themselves ffs.

Cuddlesworth

dlofnep wrote: »

Not really..

Yes really, if they were actually effective a double blind study would have found its effect and it would be sold as a medicine. Do you seriously think pharma companies spend billions on research when the answer is some milk and two plants? It defies all logic and reason, like "herbal remedies".

My name is URL

Hookah wrote: »

Edit; Here's a more recent statistic...http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/85-of-new-drugs-offer-few-benefits-2054972.html

I'd well believe that, and the idea that pharma companies cut corners and use loopholes in order to have their drugs approved more conveniently wouldn't surprise me at all.

If anything though, that just goes to show how lax the regulations are in the first place.. so if the herbs in question are in any way effective then there should be no problems with having them approved for use for specific ailments.

If the proponents of herbal remedies really have so much faith in the stuff then they could collectively fund the research needed for them to be deemed effective.

dlofnep

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Yes really, if they were actually effective a double blind study would have found its effect and it would be sold as a medicine. Do you seriously think pharma companies spend billions on research when the answer is some milk and two plants? It defies all logic and reason, like "herbal remedies".

Um, no it doesn't. Milk Thistle is widely known for it's benefits for the liver. Chlorella is also widely known for shifting toxins out of the body, especially heavy metals.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about, so don't discuss the issue at hand unless you have experience with it. Modern Medicine is not up to scratch for a number of illnesses.

zenno

well the simple answer for all this EU junk is to grow your own herbs. buy the seeds online and grow grow grow. fcuk the EU & the ECB. shower of dictators.

I personally take herbal remedies and always did and I am quite healthy. also I never injest any pharmacutical drugs as they don't work, I think the reason why most people think these pharma drugs work is because the majority of them get you so stonned out of your head with all the side-effects that you think they are healing you but in reality they are destroying your immune system slowly.

why take drugs when you can get more beneficial results from nature without being injesting man-made chemicals.

Cuddlesworth

dlofnep wrote: »

Um, no it doesn't. Milk Thistle is widely known for it's benefits for the liver. Chlorella is also widely known for shifting toxins out of the body, especially heavy metals.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about, so don't discuss the issue at hand unless you have experience with it. Modern Medicine is not up to scratch for a number of illnesses.

Milk thistle in conjunction with Kemo therapy produces a slight effect on liver function. Not enough to be of major statistical importance and needs to be done with a larger group. Plausibility of it being of a slight benefit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20014183

I'm not even going to be bothered trying for Chlorella since the health phrases "all natural" and "detoxification" piss me off to the tenth degree They are 100% bull****.

Enjoy your placebo effect.

evercloserunion

liah wrote: »

Ugh. If people wanted protection from drugs, they wouldn't do drugs. We don't need them making that decision for us.

The hell happened to respecting the idea of personal responsibility and accountability and, you know, basic freedom?

Did you just see the word "herb" in the title and then reply based on what you thought this thread was about? You sound like you're talking about cannabis or something.

Freedom to make your own decisions is most beneficial when you have all the facts and are not being misled. The aim of the legislation is to ensure that people do not purchase and consume these herbs under false assumptions about their nature and effects.

I'm getting tired of the stupid knee-jerk "omgz evil goverment takin our freedumz" reactions people seem to have to any form of regulation. The alternative is that the herbal remedies industry goes on unregulated, something eventually happens whereby people are harmed (or they realise they've been ripped off) and the EU gets the blame for not doing anything to prevent it.

dlofnep

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Milk thistle in conjunction with Kemo therapy produces a slight effect on liver function. Not enough to be of major statistical importance and needs to be done with a larger group. Plausibility of it being of a slight benefit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20014183

I'm not even going to be bothered trying for Chlorella since the health phrases "all natural" and "detoxification" piss me off to the tenth degree They are 100% bull****.

Enjoy your placebo effect.

It's nothing about a placebo effect. You're being wilfully ignorant. If a body cannot remove toxins from the body - it has ill health effects, such as heavy metal toxocity. Chlorella in conjunction with Cilantro has been shown to chelate remove heavy metals from the body, and has been tested with before and after urine samples to prove that it's effective.

You're trying to lump all herbal supplements together. You're not an expert in all medical matters, so don't pretend to be. Maybe when you live with a long-term illness, you'll be better qualified to tell me about how wonderful modern medicine is.

It failed me, for 5 years in a row. Modern medicine is too focused on how to alleviate symptoms, instead of figuring out what the direct cause of the said symptoms are.

So seriously - Shut up. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

YFlyer

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Milk thistle in conjunction with Kemo therapy produces a slight effect on liver function. Not enough to be of major statistical importance and needs to be done with a larger group. Plausibility of it being of a slight benefit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20014183

And without Chemo therapy?

Cuddlesworth

dlofnep wrote: »

It's nothing about a placebo effect. You're being wilfully ignorant. If a body cannot remove toxins from the body - it has ill health effects, such as heavy metal toxocity. Chlorella in conjunction with Cilantro has been shown to chelate remove heavy metals from the body, and has been tested with before and after urine samples to prove that it's effective.

You're trying to lump all herbal supplements together. You're not an expert in all medical matters, so don't pretend to be. Maybe when you live with a long-term illness, you'll be better qualified to tell me about how wonderful modern medicine is.

It failed me, for 5 years in a row. Modern medicine is too focused on how to alleviate symptoms, instead of figuring out what the direct cause of the said symptoms are.

So seriously - Shut up. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Don't get me wrong I'm against this law. I think if your stupid enough to drop your money on this crap, you deserve to be fleeced.

I also don't care about your long term illness, its your problem not mine. If you think it helps, so be it. But don't expect me to buy that bull**** promoted solely by the people who are directly related and profit from it.

I should know. My close family makes a large quantity of money from selling herbal remedy's and all natural medicinal solutions. And not a single person in the creation, supply or sale of the products believe a single thing outside of the stupidly high profit margins.


And lastly, heavy metals toxins is a buzzword. Your supposed to have them in your bloodstream, they are not a toxin and do no harm to you in the amounts that are there. Don't let that get in the way of your "recovery" since I'm assuming this natural remedy has cured you in the way normal medicine didn't right?

Cuddlesworth

YFlyer wrote: »

And without Chemo therapy?

From what I can see nobody has bothered researching it. This generally indicates that it has no effect and wasn't worth publishing.

Oh_Noes

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

And lastly, heavy metals toxins is a buzzword.

What are you talking about? I had iron toxity for a good while there, it was at about 2000 times what it should have been as a result of traditional western medical treatment. They had me put a needle in my stomach every night for eight hours as a part of a chelation treatment. This was a consultant haemotologist with the HSE.

I had to refuse this treatment in the end because it was becoming exremely hard to deal with. Heavy metal toxins certainly isn't a buzzword, it's a very real problem with very few treatment options.

I can't understand all this blind faith in standard medical practice when we see things going wrong in the news every week: misdiagnosis, treatments discontinued, people dying due to incompetence in the medical profession.

We're not allowed to choose whether we want to have an alternative to this now?

strobe

zenno wrote: »

well the simple answer for all this EU junk is to grow your own herbs. buy the seeds online and grow grow grow. fcuk the EU & the ECB. shower of dictators.

I personally take herbal remedies and always did and I am quite healthy. also I never injest any pharmacutical drugs as they don't work, I think the reason why most people think these pharma drugs work is because the majority of them get you so stonned out of your head with all the side-effects that you think they are healing you but in reality they are destroying your immune system slowly.

why take drugs when you can get more beneficial results from nature without being injesting man-made chemicals.

Oh for fukk sake... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxycycline. Fukk off.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Tim Minchin puts it best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1yxDWxUIM0#t=160s

dlofnep

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

And lastly, heavy metals toxins is a buzzword. Your supposed to have them in your bloodstream, they are not a toxin and do no harm to you in the amounts that are there.

More ignorance. Buzz-word my hole.

There is a certain level at which heavy metals are too much for the body to detoxify and shift. Beyond that, it can and does directly impact on your health. And 'what amounts' are you referring to? Amounts in whom, you - or me? Because you don't have a clue as to what my levels are, so don't make assumptions.

I'm not bothered discussing anything further with you. You're a typical know-it-all.

YFlyer

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

From what I can see nobody has bothered researching it. This generally indicates that it has no effect and wasn't worth publishing.

From the paper it was concluded that milk thistle was associated with a trend toward significant reductions in liver toxicity. That milk thistle did not antagonize the effects of chemotherapy agents used for the treatment of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia.

Sure more research needs to be carried out. However, initial results looks impressive.

zenno

strobe wrote: »

Oh for fukk sake... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxycycline. Fukk off.

no point in being an asshole if it troubles you're mental ability then you should cease reading such comments... and try to spell correctly please if you can. thanks.

strobe

zenno wrote: »

no point in being an asshole if it troubles you're mental ability then you should cease reading such comments... and try to spell correctly please if you can. thanks.

I used the spelling to circumnavigate the censor system. {was that not obvious?}

What is your excuse?

zenno wrote: »

pharmacutical

(that's not the only example I could have used btw.)

Glass house is it? Put the stones down there and take three steps back.

I'd prefer not to even bother mentioning the whole your/you're thing but...

You make this unnecessarily easy.

zenno

strobe wrote: »

I used the spelling to circumnavigate the censor system. {was that not obvious?}

What is your excuse?



(that's not the only example I could have used btw.)

Glass house is it? Put the stones down there and take three steps back.

I'd prefer not to even bother mentioning the whole your/you're thing but...

You make this unnecessarily easy.

thanks for pointing that out STROBE still no need to tell me to fukk off as I was only making a suggestion in regard to herbal remedies of which I put more trust in than pharma ****e.

strobe

zenno wrote: »

thanks for pointing that out STROBE still no need to tell me to fukk off as I was only making a suggestion in regard to herbal remedies of which I put more trust in than pharma ****e.

I am sorry for telling you to fukk off. That was extremely childish of me and I apologise unreservedly.

That doesn't mean that you saying all pharmaceutical drugs don't work isn't silly talk of course. But I'm sorry all the same.

(Thanks for making my name blue though. That was nice.)