Dog in heat - breeding her

caroline1111

Hey, just looking for some general advice/info here. I've been thinking about breeding my dog who is a rare enough breed and fully registered, vaccinated, etc. She is currently in the first week of her second heat and will be 2 years old next month. I was just wondering what the procedure would be about getting a stud dog and all the documentation, etc involved - I want to do everything by the book through the IKC. I rang the IKC but got no reply, I'll try again tomorrow. Thanks

andreac

Firstly, what breed is she?
Have you had her health tested for the relevent health problems for the breed? This should be done before even contemplating breeding.

Vaccinated and registered is far from enough to be done if you are considering breeding.

Have you shown her, or has a breed expert seen her to see if shes suitable for breeding? Only excellent quality and examples of the breed should be bred from.

Have you considered how and where you will get homes for the potential pups?

I wouldnt even consider breeding until you have done a lot more research on your breed and breeding.

You need to get in touch with your breed club and get advice from them first and look up stud dogs or reputable kennels.

Most responsible breeders with stud dogs will not allow you to use their stud dog unless your bitch has been health tested first so you need to look up what tests are required for your breed and get this carried out first.

caroline1111

Thanks for the reply.
Shes an Irish Red and White Setter
I haven't had her at any IKC shows yet but a couple of vets have suggested that I breed her.
She hasn't had specific breed health tests done but I was planning on looking into that.
In an ideal world going through all these procedures, etc would be the best thing but I doubt that in reality many people do them, though I will endeavour to.
Thanks again.

andreac

Why would your vet suggest you breed from her?? I dont get it

They arent experts in every breed so that is why you need to contact the breed club and get advice form those who are experts in the breed and get advice and information from them.

Sorry to be blunt, but if you arent prepared to do what i have mentioned then you shouldnt even consider breeding.

All those other people who dont do all of whats needed are just back yard breeders and puppy farmers and are not in it for the right reasons and to better the breed.

Why exactly are you breeding her anyway? Are you wanting to keep a pup yourself? If not then there is absolutely no need to breed her. Unless she was proven to be an excellent dog in the ring or out hunting as what the breed is bred for, then please do not breed your dog. There are more than enough people breeding dogs around and unless you are looking to keep her line going and keep puppies yourself then you do not need to breed.

ISDW

caroline1111 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.
Shes an Irish Red and White Setter
I haven't had her at any IKC shows yet but a couple of vets have suggested that I breed her.
She hasn't had specific breed health tests done but I was planning on looking into that.
In an ideal world going through all these procedures, etc would be the best thing but I doubt that in reality many people do them, though I will endeavour to.
Thanks again.

Not really a lot to add to andreac's posts, as she has basically said what I would have said.

As she has said, the people that don't do these tests are puppy farmers and back yard breeders and to be avoided at all costs.

where did you get your bitch from? Did the breeder not put any endorsements on her papers? A reputable breeder would want to be your mentor if you want to breed any of their bitches, so that should be your first port of call. Did you see the health tests for her parents?

Red and white setters are fairly rare, but there have actually been a couple turning up in pounds over the last few months, so I don't know if there is much of a market out there for them. The puppy market has taken a nosedive with the recession, so you will be lucky to sell all the pups. Maybe family or friends have told you they will take a pup off you, but its amazing how many of those homes fall through when the reality of a puppy is actually in front of them, and the vets bills, food costs etc.

Unfortunately, vets are no experts in breeding dogs, I used to use a vet who was planning on breeding her own boxer, with no health checks, the dogs has a very dodgy temperament, but hey ho, what does that matter, when theres money to be made?

I wouldn't expect that you would get an answer from the IKC tomorrow, being a bank holiday, but they should be back at work on Tuesday, so definitely phone them and ask for the breed club details. Obviously its too late to breed from her during this season anyway, as the health tests haven't been done.

lrushe

caroline1111 wrote: »

In an ideal world going through all these procedures, etc would be the best thing but I doubt that in reality many people do them...[/ QUOTE]

And this is why pedigree dogs as a whole are facing so many problems. You have been given some excellent advice, please heed it and do a better job than 'many people', I'm sure your dog is worth the effort.

caroline1111

Guys thanks very much for the great advice. I had planned to do some shows with her this year (I didn't get to last year as she had a GI problem which she has now thankfully completely overcome) and also look into getting her breed tests done, etc. Maybe come the autumn/winter I'll be in a position to breed from her all going well.

transit260

Caroline 1 thing you keep in mind,THIS IS YOUR DOG,IF YOU FEEL LIKE BREEDING IT THEN YOU HAVE THE UTMOST RIGHT TO DO SO,and theres some very fine backyard breeders out there,you dont need to be a professional breeder to be a good and thoughtfull owner.But before you all start accusing me of being this or that I havent bred a litter of pups in 8 years and hopefully I wont for the next 28 either,but if I feel the need to I have the right to and dont need anyones blessing to do so.Now I wait the onslaught,as for geting a health check,my feelings on the matter are if your bitch is strong healthy and has no obvious deformiteys then forget the vet checque,theyre just greedy buisness people these days that are ruled by the euro rather than the dogs best wellfare.Now the response will be volatile I expect but I dont really care and this will be my last word on it.BYEEEE:D

ISDW

transit260 wrote: »

Caroline 1 thing you keep in mind,THIS IS YOUR DOG,IF YOU FEEL LIKE BREEDING IT THEN YOU HAVE THE UTMOST RIGHT TO DO SO,and theres some very fine backyard breeders out there,you dont need to be a professional breeder to be a good and thoughtfull owner.But before you all start accusing me of being this or that I havent bred a litter of pups in 8 years and hopefully I wont for the next 28 either,but if I feel the need to I have the right to and dont need anyones blessing to do so.Now I wait the onslaught,as for geting a health check,my feelings on the matter are if your bitch is strong healthy and has no obvious deformiteys then forget the vet checque,theyre just greedy buisness people these days that are ruled by the euro rather than the dogs best wellfare.Now the response will be volatile I expect but I dont really care and this will be my last word on it.BYEEEE:D

What do you mean by professional breeder? A puppy farmer? No of course you don't have to be a puppy farmer to breed a dog, in fact wouldn't it be fantastic if they all disappeared.

You seriously think that health tests that can show up hereditary health problems are a waste of money? Okey dokey, everyones entitled to their opinion, and if you think its fine to breed from a dog that might have a hidden condition that they are going to pass on to their pups, causing them to be in pain, and their new owners thousands of euros in vets bills, then thats fair enough. Your opinion is duly noted.

Shanao

transit260 wrote: »

Caroline 1 thing you keep in mind,THIS IS YOUR DOG,IF YOU FEEL LIKE BREEDING IT THEN YOU HAVE THE UTMOST RIGHT TO DO SO,and theres some very fine backyard breeders out there,you dont need to be a professional breeder to be a good and thoughtfull owner.But before you all start accusing me of being this or that I havent bred a litter of pups in 8 years and hopefully I wont for the next 28 either,but if I feel the need to I have the right to and dont need anyones blessing to do so.Now I wait the onslaught,as for geting a health check,my feelings on the matter are if your bitch is strong healthy and has no obvious deformiteys then forget the vet checque,theyre just greedy buisness people these days that are ruled by the euro rather than the dogs best wellfare.Now the response will be volatile I expect but I dont really care and this will be my last word on it.BYEEEE:D

And its attitudes like this that have led to the overwhleming problem with dogs in the country. May I ask what exactly gives you the 'right' to breed your dog? What gives you the 'right' to put your dog in potential harm's way? What gives you the 'right' to risk the life of whatever amount of puppies a bitch may have? Owning a pet is not a right, it is an honour and I really wish more people would realise this.

Caroline1111- Please think carefully about this. As someone else said, if you are hoping to get a pup for yourself, it might seem like a good idea, but what about the other pups? I handreared a setter puppy two years ago after the bitch gave birth to nine pups and couldn't take care of the big litter. Are you prepared for this if it happens? Are you prepared to search for five+ good homes for puppies?
Why not have a look through Irishanimals.ie and see the amount of dogs and puppies in rescues at the moment. Its scary how many are coming in every single day and many more are dumped, or killed before they can be rescued. There are a lot of things to consider here, so please do the best for your dog and think this through.

transit260

And its attitudes like this that have led to the overwhleming problem with dogs in the country. May I ask what exactly gives you the 'right' to breed your dog? What gives you the 'right' to put your dog in potential harm's way? What gives you the 'right' to risk the life of whatever amount of puppies a bitch may have? Owning a pet is not a right, it is an honour and I really wish more people would realise this.

SORRY I CANT RESIST REPLYING:D,I dont have an attitude,I have an opinion and my opinion is if you pay good money for a pup,rear it with love,respect and take the best care of it that you can,then the dog is your charge.What is all this pullava about 'the right'' blah blah blah,lol.Every time you take your dog to the park and release it to run about and frollic and have fun your puting the animal in potential harms way,SOMETHING UNEXPECTED JUST MIGHT OCCUR,very unlikely...just like having a litter of puppys from your much loved bitch.SUCH IS LIFE PEOPLE;).Im not going to blow my own trumpet but I have rescued a few animals in my time,which was financially challenging,didnt matter a bit.The animals were the important factor not the cost.So Shanao dont be presuming I dont give a damn because I do,if the lady feels like she wants to breed her lovely little setter the SHE HAS THAT RIGHT.Last word......I think:D

ISDW

transit260 wrote: »

And its attitudes like this that have led to the overwhleming problem with dogs in the country. May I ask what exactly gives you the 'right' to breed your dog? What gives you the 'right' to put your dog in potential harm's way? What gives you the 'right' to risk the life of whatever amount of puppies a bitch may have? Owning a pet is not a right, it is an honour and I really wish more people would realise this.

SORRY I CANT RESIST REPLYING:D,I dont have an attitude,I have an opinion and my opinion is if you pay good money for a pup,rear it with love,respect and take the best care of it that you can,then the dog is your charge.What is all this pullava about 'the right'' blah blah blah,lol.Every time you take your dog to the park and release it to run about and frollic and have fun your puting the animal in potential harms way,SOMETHING UNEXPECTED JUST MIGHT OCCUR,very unlikely...just like having a litter of puppys from your much loved bitch.SUCH IS LIFE PEOPLE;).Im not going to blow my own trumpet but I have rescued a few animals in my time,which was financially challenging,didnt matter a bit.The animals were the important factor not the cost.So Shanao dont be presuming I dont give a damn because I do,if the lady feels like she wants to breed her lovely little setter the SHE HAS THAT RIGHT.Last word......I think:D

You can't resist replying and shouting at people - nice.

Shanao

transit260 wrote: »

SORRY I CANT RESIST REPLYING:D,I dont have an attitude,I have an opinion and my opinion is if you pay good money for a pup,rear it with love,respect and take the best care of it that you can,then the dog is your charge.What is all this pullava about 'the right'' blah blah blah,lol.Every time you take your dog to the park and release it to run about and frollic and have fun your puting the animal in potential harms way,SOMETHING UNEXPECTED JUST MIGHT OCCUR,very unlikely...just like having a litter of puppys from your much loved bitch.SUCH IS LIFE PEOPLE;).Im not going to blow my own trumpet but I have rescued a few animals in my time,which was financially challenging,didnt matter a bit.The animals were the important factor not the cost.So Shanao dont be presuming I dont give a damn because I do,if the lady feels like she wants to breed her lovely little setter the SHE HAS THAT RIGHT.Last word......I think:D

Well done on rescuing, but if you have worked in rescue, then I truly cannot understand how you can stand behind breeding without cause, and without doing the neccessary health checks. Two people I know have lost their bitches already this year during birth, one lost all of the pups as well, and the other was just lucky enough to save one pup from the litter. Only last week I met a man with a 7month old lab puppy who already has hip dysplasia, I asked him had the parents been hipscored and he said he didn't know. The pup is in such bad shape that he can barely get up off the floor and this is a condition that will be found through doing a health check and hip scoring.
Its reasons like this that health checks are necessary, its not simply handing over money to the veterinary 'business' as you say. I am sick of hearing about people simply wanting to breed their dogs for a bit of money, everyone I meet asks me am I breeding my dog, and I say no, he was actually neutered last week, and the amount of people who say; "Pity, you coulda made a lot of money from him" is truly annoying. The only reason to breed is to try and help the breed progress, to try and eliminate health problems in the breed and work towards making it healthier and stronger. There is no profit made in breeding when it is done right, and you can be sure that puppy farmers and backyard breeders are doing their utmost to make a profit from it.

I'm not saying the OP is a backyard breeder or anything, but by encouraging her to forget about health checks etc, you are telling her to be one.
And when it comes to my presumptions, when you come in spouting stuff like that, its impossible to see that you give a 'damn'.

Dont even know why i'm arguing now cos all i can think is "Troll, Troll, Troll..."

ppink

Transit260 I am not actually able to properly read your last post there as the writing is all running into itself and you cap locks seem to be getting stuck.:p

Anyway i got he jist of "everybody has a right" and thats correct unfortunately.
We all have a right to own tigers in Ireland, we all have a right to go to the circus to see elephants come out of their tiny containers to thrill us for half an hour to go back to their container for another 23 hours, we all have a right to own dogs and breed what we like with no care for health or future in a country that is overrun with pups, we all have so many rights but Is that really right!

Caroline1111 asked for information on breeding and she got it from those in the know. Sometimes it does not make pretty reading and may not be what you want to hear but forgetting about your "rights" for a minute and actually thinking about it will see she has been given good advice to look up to ensure she does not add to this country's problems and maybe to do the "right" thing by herself, her dog and the breed.

Zapperzy

transit260 wrote: »

And its attitudes like this that have led to the overwhleming problem with dogs in the country. May I ask what exactly gives you the 'right' to breed your dog? What gives you the 'right' to put your dog in potential harm's way? What gives you the 'right' to risk the life of whatever amount of puppies a bitch may have? Owning a pet is not a right, it is an honour and I really wish more people would realise this.

SORRY I CANT RESIST REPLYING:D,I dont have an attitude,I have an opinion and my opinion is if you pay good money for a pup,rear it with love,respect and take the best care of it that you can,then the dog is your charge.What is all this pullava about 'the right'' blah blah blah,lol.Every time you take your dog to the park and release it to run about and frollic and have fun your puting the animal in potential harms way,SOMETHING UNEXPECTED JUST MIGHT OCCUR,very unlikely...just like having a litter of puppys from your much loved bitch.SUCH IS LIFE PEOPLE;).Im not going to blow my own trumpet but I have rescued a few animals in my time,which was financially challenging,didnt matter a bit.The animals were the important factor not the cost.So Shanao dont be presuming I dont give a damn because I do,if the lady feels like she wants to breed her lovely little setter the SHE HAS THAT RIGHT.Last word......I think:D

Work in a vets for a while and you will see why people recommend health testing, when I see a cavalier (over the age of about 4 or 5) coming in I immediately think heart murmur and guess what 90% of the time Im right. Same goes for boxers (over the age of about 5 or 6) they nearly always have heart issues and hip dysplasia (when younger) and arthritis (in older boxers due to hip dysplasia when younger). Yorkshire terriers with luxating patellas, english bulldogs that cannot breathe and have cherry eye, labradors that hobble around the place because their hips are so bad.

You compare something that just might occur when you let your dog off the lead to something that might just happen if you breed your dog. Well you minimise the chances of something occuring to your dog by training him to recall, being careful where you let him off the lead and by being careful as to what dogs you allow him to 'frolic' around with. Sure you can just let him play with aggressive dogs beside a motorway with no recall and he may come out of it fine, well it's the same with breeding dogs. You minimise risks by health testing and carefully choosing a stud dog, sure you can do no health testing and breed a bitch with any old stud dog but that's the same as letting a dog play beside a motorway with aggressive dogs with no recall, something may or may not happen but you greatly increase the risk of something going wrong.

transit260

ISDW wrote: »

You can't resist replying and shouting at people - nice.

Jeeze sensetive or what,lol.

transit260

Shanao wrote: »

Well done on rescuing, but if you have worked in rescue, then I truly cannot understand how you can stand behind breeding without cause, and without doing the neccessary health checks. Two people I know have lost their bitches already this year during birth, one lost all of the pups as well, and the other was just lucky enough to save one pup from the litter. Only last week I met a man with a 7month old lab puppy who already has hip dysplasia, I asked him had the parents been hipscored and he said he didn't know. The pup is in such bad shape that he can barely get up off the floor and this is a condition that will be found through doing a health check and hip scoring.
Its reasons like this that health checks are necessary, its not simply handing over money to the veterinary 'business' as you say. I am sick of hearing about people simply wanting to breed their dogs for a bit of money, everyone I meet asks me am I breeding my dog, and I say no, he was actually neutered last week, and the amount of people who say; "Pity, you coulda made a lot of money from him" is truly annoying. The only reason to breed is to try and help the breed progress, to try and eliminate health problems in the breed and work towards making it healthier and stronger. There is no profit made in breeding when it is done right, and you can be sure that puppy farmers and backyard breeders are doing their utmost to make a profit from it.

I'm not saying the OP is a backyard breeder or anything, but by encouraging her to forget about health checks etc, you are telling her to be one.
And when it comes to my presumptions, when you come in spouting stuff like that, its impossible to see that you give a 'damn'.

Dont even know why i'm arguing now cos all i can think is "Troll, Troll, Troll..."

what a load of drivel,im atroll now cause I dont agree with your thinking.If you want to help the breeds of dogs with abnormalities,tackle the IRISH KENNELL CLUB or the Worlds Kennell clubs as they are responsible for all these hip dysplacias enlarged hearts,enlarged heads(british bulldogs)and other manner of problems.They promoted stupid exagarrated psyichal traits so the dogs would be ''perfect'' for the show ring,the people that went along with it are also to blame,would you class all these folk as''back yard breeders''?We have the consience of Ireland on here pontificating on the woes of breeding dogs.It goes on get over it,its a situation that will never go away,its sad to see those who breed for greed,but for caroline who has a genuine interest in breeding a litter of pups theres no harm at all in it as far as I can see.I thought a troll was one of these dolly things that hung from your car mirror long ago,lol.God bless you all.

pitbull_fanatic

i told myself not to get involved but i watched this thread. again its another very 1 sided thread. people here have to stop being so clannish and this ass-licking has to stop. its the same in every thread on this forum. people are starting to regret askin questions on this because they will not get a proper answer. they will get a tree-hugger type answer and everybody jumps on the bandwagon and attacks anyone on the opposition. the op asked a simple question and she got answers that are basicly sayin to her dont. but she has decided that she wants to breed a rare breed. she has asked what to do so she can do it right so why cant people just answer the asked questions nicely insyead of havin stupid off topic debates and bringin every topic round to shelters. maybe things would turn out better if people have more education instead being chased away and bullied into neutering. teach her the right way to do it like she wants. i no wats coming now...a tidal wave of abuse and everyone join in with their friends. attack the person wit no friends on here that stood up for what they believe but majority rule i suppose.

transit260

Zapperzy wrote: »

Work in a vets for a while and you will see why people recommend health testing, when I see a cavalier (over the age of about 4 or 5) coming in I immediately think heart murmur and guess what 90% of the time Im right. Same goes for boxers (over the age of about 5 or 6) they nearly always have heart issues and hip dysplasia (when younger) and arthritis (in older boxers due to hip dysplasia when younger). Yorkshire terriers with luxating patellas, english bulldogs that cannot breathe and have cherry eye, labradors that hobble around the place because their hips are so bad.

You compare something that just might occur when you let your dog off the lead to something that might just happen if you breed your dog. Well you minimise the chances of something occuring to your dog by training him to recall, being careful where you let him off the lead and by being careful as to what dogs you allow him to 'frolic' around with. Sure you can just let him play with aggressive dogs beside a motorway with no recall and he may come out of it fine, well it's the same with breeding dogs. You minimise risks by health testing and carefully choosing a stud dog, sure you can do no health testing and breed a bitch with any old stud dog but that's the same as letting a dog play beside a motorway with aggressive dogs with no recall, something may or may not happen but you greatly increase the risk of something going wrong.

Work with a vet?some chance,theyre screwing the ordinary working folk cause they know most decent people would go to the ends of the earth to save their beloved pets from any form of discomfort no matter what.Wey hey,an oppertunity to make car loads of dosh.as Ive said in aprevious post,all the breeds you mention above have abnormalities in hips hearts etc because of THE IRISH KENNEL CLUB,end of story.The members of the above mentioned wouldnt be classed as ''back yard breeders''as its so aptly put but they have a lot to answer for.Look as far as im concerned,the lady wanted help and information on the best way of breeding a litter of pups,not the greatest of sins.In fact NO SIN AT ALL,the blessings of God on her.You voiced your opinion,I voiced mine.The difference is I acept yours and understand where your coming from,you (in general terms,not meaning you alone)do not agree,nor accept mine.And never the twain shall meet.I tried to be more sensitive to those who get all upset over using the caps lock so hope this is better,BUT ITS GREAT FUN WHEN ITS ON,lol

transit260

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

i told myself not to get involved but i watched this thread. again its another very 1 sided thread. people here have to stop being so clannish and this ass-licking has to stop. its the same in every thread on this forum. people are starting to regret askin questions on this because they will not get a proper answer. they will get a tree-hugger type answer and everybody jumps on the bandwagon and attacks anyone on the opposition. the op asked a simple question and she got answers that are basicly sayin to her dont. but she has decided that she wants to breed a rare breed. she has asked what to do so she can do it right so why cant people just answer the asked questions nicely insyead of havin stupid off topic debates and bringin every topic round to shelters. maybe things would turn out better if people have more education instead being chased away and bullied into neutering. teach her the right way to do it like she wants. i no wats coming now...a tidal wave of abuse and everyone join in with their friends. attack the person wit no friends on here that stood up for what they believe but majority rule i suppose.

Oh my Lord,a well balanced,reasoned debate,I feel faint.Pitbull Fanatic,well done.I am trying to balance things out as its a flood of silly 1 sided stuff.Believe it or not I was a fan of your breed of dogs for 23 years,hell of a breed.its pointless talking to those who refuse to listen.

mosi

transit260 wrote: »

what a load of drivel,im atroll now cause I dont agree with your thinking.If you want to help the breeds of dogs with abnormalities,tackle the IRISH KENNELL CLUB or the Worlds Kennell clubs as they are responsible for all these hip dysplacias enlarged hearts,enlarged heads(british bulldogs)and other manner of problems.They promoted stupid exagarrated psyichal traits so the dogs would be ''perfect'' for the show ring,the people that went along with it are also to blame,would you class all these folk as''back yard breeders''?We have the consience of Ireland on here pontificating on the woes of breeding dogs.It goes on get over it,its a situation that will never go away,its sad to see those who breed for greed,but for caroline who has a genuine interest in breeding a litter of pups theres no harm at all in it as far as I can see.I thought a troll was one of these dolly things that hung from your car mirror long ago,lol.God bless you all.

Transit260, if you are concerned about the named health problems then why are you opposed to the OP getting health tests done and doing everything possible to ensure that healthy pups that are good for the breed are born? Do you not think that without these tests, she runs the risk of breeding potentially unhealthy dogs? There are a lot of problems with the way dogs have been bred but responsible breeders are trying to address these. Therefore, anyone breeding has to be very careful so as not to continue these problems by breeding an unsuitable dog.
The Irish Red and White Setter is classified as a vulnerable breed so it is imperative that the OP takes every precaution in order to determine if breeding is the appropriate thing to do.
There are so many dogs in need of homes out there that it is irresponsible to breed unless there is a highly specialised, ethical and personal prerogative to do so. Doing it for the sake of it is not acceptable, while advocating such an approach as yours is also unacceptable.
Why don't you just toddle back over to the hunting forum and leave the genuine animal lovers to give advice here

mosi

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

i told myself not to get involved but i watched this thread. again its another very 1 sided thread. people here have to stop being so clannish and this ass-licking has to stop. its the same in every thread on this forum. people are starting to regret askin questions on this because they will not get a proper answer. they will get a tree-hugger type answer and everybody jumps on the bandwagon and attacks anyone on the opposition. the op asked a simple question and she got answers that are basicly sayin to her dont. but she has decided that she wants to breed a rare breed. she has asked what to do so she can do it right so why cant people just answer the asked questions nicely insyead of havin stupid off topic debates and bringin every topic round to shelters. maybe things would turn out better if people have more education instead being chased away and bullied into neutering. teach her the right way to do it like she wants. i no wats coming now...a tidal wave of abuse and everyone join in with their friends. attack the person wit no friends on here that stood up for what they believe but majority rule i suppose.

She wasn't told not to breed, she was actually given some sound advice about how to approach breeding in a responsible manner and not to jump into it without being aware of what is involved. What's wrong with that?

pitbull_fanatic

andreac wrote: »

please do not breed your dog.

and others were getting to that point but the shelter debate came into play. nothing wrong with sound advice but its not the advice she asked for. she asked a question and was told dont breed. do research and keep dogs out of our pounds. she was even told she wont sell all her pups?? sound for the vote of confidence. i dont know anything about breeding so unfortunatly i'm not a great help. but if i knew what to do i'd tell her. but i'd like to know what to do so as usual it looks like i'l have to look elsewhere to find out as i dont think i or OP will find out here...

transit260

Why don't you just toddle back over to the hunting forum and leave the genuine animal lovers to give advice here[/QUOTE]

Listen here now sunshine,this is an open forum,if you dont agree with my views thats YOUR problem not mine.I'll view and enjoy this site until I decide its not enjoyable anymore or until someone that moderates it decides to cut me off.If I should be over on the hunting section what were you doing over there then,hmmmm.Having a sneaky look was it,lol.My OPINION is the vets are riping people off,just take a look at the rise in pet insurance in the last 10 years,an open invitation to charge ludicrious fees.There will always be many dogs neglected and abandoned,such is life.its sad but its reality,a place your not in touch with it seems.I wont be toddleing off anywhere until Im good and ready,now off to bed with you:D

Shanao

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

and others were getting to that point but the shelter debate came into play. nothing wrong with sound advice but its not the advice she asked for. she asked a question and was told dont breed. do research and keep dogs out of our pounds. she was even told she wont sell all her pups?? sound for the vote of confidence. i dont know anything about breeding so unfortunatly i'm not a great help. but if i knew what to do i'd tell her. but i'd like to know what to do so as usual it looks like i'l have to look elsewhere to find out as i dont think i or OP will find out here...

The shelter debate only came into play because a poster said that it was her 'right' to breed her dog. But as andreac had stated in her very first post, a dog shouldn't be bred from unless proven of excellent form to avoid the health issues with the breed. Having to see a badly bred pup hobble around can be heartbreaking, and that is why these health checks are necessary.
Unfortunately, the OP never got around to telling us why she was breeding. If it was for a pup for herself and family pets, then the necessary health checks would still need to be done but I dont think the show part would matter so much. But if she was hoping to sell them on as potential show dogs, the dog would need to show her proficiency as both a show and working dog.
ISDW mentioned the amount of setters in the pounds to show that there isn't much of a market for them right now, as there aren't with a lot of breeds right now. The puppy farmers are, unfortunately, dealing in all the popular breeds now so the less popular aren't sought out.

Unless she was proven to be an excellent dog in the ring or out hunting as what the breed is bred for, then please do not breed your dog- is what was said, not straight out dont breed your dog.

pitbull_fanatic

and as the OP said she was looking into specific breed health tests and she wanted advice on the procedure of getting a stud dog, documentation and everything to go with it. she's willing to do it right. it doesnt matter who she's breeding them for, she doesnt have to post here who she plans on giving them to. she just asked for advice. and 2 pages later she stil knows as much as she did last week.

are you serious

john t wrote: »

THEIR is enough dogs in ireland regardless of rare breed or gourgous dog. We could all breed our pets who too us are perfect lovely loyal cute etc etc.... but ireland has lots of lovely cute dogs in pounds/ rescue centres/ foster programme`s. Id love too breed my dog but i wouldnt put more puppies in society too be given up after 2 weeks.. anyway she is neutured...

John there is enough dogs in Ireland you are right. But, and I say this with slight caution there is always going to be someone out there with me included who wants another dog or a new 1st dog or a dog to replace a dog they once had. This dog they want may not be a rescue dog, lots of people my guess being the majority of people want a puppy.

Those people out there who dont want a puppy generally are those who go to rescue homes. Those who dont generally have no idea about the IKC or dog breeder clubs so they do what has been done in Ireland for years, picked up the buy and sell or these days gone to donedeal the easiest option always wins. In addition there are so many uneducated people out there when it comes to dogs it is as I'm sure your aware shocking! My overall point being if someone wants an Irish red and white setter and doesnt want to pay over the odds from a show breeder they will be able to go to someone like the OP for a healthy slightly cheaper fully healthy option! Not everyone wants a "mongrel" or the mixed breeds that are available in the shelters out there and those who dont can not afford the money needed to buy from a reputable breeder!

Anyway thats my 2 cents on this topic.

Sorry and to add to this the OP was from the start looking for advice and help guys so give her a break

Shanao

andreac wrote: »

Firstly, what breed is she?
Have you had her health tested for the relevent health problems for the breed? This should be done before even contemplating breeding.

Vaccinated and registered is far from enough to be done if you are considering breeding.

You need to get in touch with your breed club and get advice from them first and look up stud dogs or reputable kennels.

Most responsible breeders with stud dogs will not allow you to use their stud dog unless your bitch has been health tested first so you need to look up what tests are required for your breed and get this carried out first.

The very first reply she got pretty much covered it as far as i can see.

pitbull_fanatic

it was good advice. but i wouldnt say it has covered all four corners to be honest. but if it was good enough then it shoulda been left as is and not everyone joining in discouraging her. its pointless saying anymore because i'v said my piece. all i'm asking for the OP is people to give her fair advice from both sides. not 1 side and everyone backing them up. its an open forum not a court room. anyway its goin round in circles now. we'll see what follows in the morning when people wake up and throw in their opinions of someone seeing something from the other side....

ppink

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

and others were getting to that point but the shelter debate came into play. nothing wrong with sound advice but its not the advice she asked for. she asked a question and was told dont breed. do research and keep dogs out of our pounds. she was even told she wont sell all her pups?? sound for the vote of confidence. i dont know anything about breeding so unfortunatly i'm not a great help. but if i knew what to do i'd tell her. but i'd like to know what to do so as usual it looks like i'l have to look elsewhere to find out as i dont think i or OP will find out here...

I am awake now;)

I actually read back over the thread this morning and really you have quoted Andreac's post out of context.....she said please do not breed if you are not willing to health check the dog........very different from "do not breed".
i am sure if Caroline1111 was to health check and really want to get involved that andreac would be of help to her as she has a lot of info on the whole subject.
Noone else said do not breed either.

People did however respond to transit260 which i am not sure was sucha wise thing in hindsight:p

By the way I cant speak for the others but I know nobody on this forum and I dont agree with people all the time either; it is like you say to discuss different views on a topic an my view is just because we all have these "rights" does not follow that we should leap in without thinking it all through properly.

scudzilla

andreac

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

and others were getting to that point but the shelter debate came into play. nothing wrong with sound advice but its not the advice she asked for. she asked a question and was told dont breed. do research and keep dogs out of our pounds. she was even told she wont sell all her pups?? sound for the vote of confidence. i dont know anything about breeding so unfortunatly i'm not a great help. but if i knew what to do i'd tell her. but i'd like to know what to do so as usual it looks like i'l have to look elsewhere to find out as i dont think i or OP will find out here...

Hold on, i gave good advice if she wants to go about breeding and i certainly didnt say not to breed her.
You didnt quote me properly at all, here is exactly what i said:
Are you wanting to keep a pup yourself? If not then there is absolutely no need to breed her. Unless she was proven to be an excellent dog in the ring or out hunting as what the breed is bred for, then please do not breed your dog. There are more than enough people breeding dogs around and unless you are looking to keep her line going and keep puppies yourself then you do not need to breed.

I have absolutely no problem with people breeding as long as its done correctly with the right research and the dogs are health tested, which is what the OP hasnt done yet. She stated the bitch is in heat at the moment so no, the research and testing hasnt been done so she shouldnt be breeding until all of this is carried out first.
You dont just decide when the bitch is in heat if you are going to breed her. This is planned months in advance. A suitable dog is chosen to match her, both dogs are health tested and proven worthy to be bred from, then and only then should you consider breeding.

Bullseye1

If you want to breed your dog and you want to be a responsible Irish Stetter Breeder then do the necessary tests. Contact the Irish Setters breeders club and get as much information as possible. They will put you in contact with a suitable breeding male.

Your dog may not be suitable so there is not point in breeding her if she doesn't meet the minimum requirements. Also do some research on whether there is demand for the breed. No point in havin a litter of 5-6 puppies and no homes for them.

Good luck with your decision.

caroline1111

Andreac please don't try and paint me as a fool, I havn't just decided on a whim to breed her, when I bought her nearly two years ago I had it in mind and I knew she'd be coming in heat around now but it just crept up on me, I've been preoccupied with college exams and stuff.
As for breeding an entire litter of pups (maybe even 12 or something) purely to keep one for myself I think this would be a bit ridiculous.
As for other people questioning my motives amd mentioning money and back yard breeding, please don't insult me....
Her mother was a family pet, family reared, as my litter would be, I really don't see whats wrong with that...
I know alot of you here are very passionate about dogs and I salute you for that, I'm the same, but I think you have your own agenda regarding bad dog breeding in Ireland, please don't blame this on me.. I played no part in it.
I have acknowledged your advice and am grateful for it.

ISDW

caroline1111 wrote: »

Andreac please don't try and paint me as a fool, I havn't just decided on a whim to breed her, when I bought her nearly two years ago I had it in mind and I knew she'd be coming in heat around now but it just crept up on me, I've been preoccupied with college exams and stuff.
As for breeding an entire litter of pups (maybe even 12 or something) purely to keep one for myself I think this would be a bit ridiculous.
As for other people questioning my motives amd mentioning money and back yard breeding, please don't insult me....
Her mother was a family pet, family reared, as my litter would be, I really don't see whats wrong with that...
I know alot of you here are very passionate about dogs and I salute you for that, I'm the same, but I think you have your own agenda regarding bad dog breeding in Ireland, please don't blame this on me.. I played no part in it.
I have acknowledged your advice and am grateful for it.

As far as I can see nobody has said you are a fool, or painted you as a byb, from where I'm sitting, transit260 managed to take this whole thread off on a tangent, and most of the comments are aimed at them, not you.

No, there is nothing wrong with what you want to do, as long as you have done the relevant health tests. A friend of mine has a red setter that had entropic lids on both eyes and had to have two operations and was in a lot of pain. This obviously is what good breeders want to avoid, you, I'm sure wouldn't want any pups that you have reared to be in pain, and wouldn't want any new owner to have to pay out a lot of money to get it rectified.

Could you please let me know though what my own agenda is on bad breeding? All I'm interested in is having healthy, happy dogs spending their whole lives with their family, being loved and being part of that family. If thats an agenda, then yes, I do have one:D

andreac

caroline1111 wrote: »

Andreac please don't try and paint me as a fool, I havn't just decided on a whim to breed her, when I bought her nearly two years ago I had it in mind and I knew she'd be coming in heat around now but it just crept up on me, I've been preoccupied with college exams and stuff.
As for breeding an entire litter of pups (maybe even 12 or something) purely to keep one for myself I think this would be a bit ridiculous.
As for other people questioning my motives amd mentioning money and back yard breeding, please don't insult me....
Her mother was a family pet, family reared, as my litter would be, I really don't see whats wrong with that...
I know alot of you here are very passionate about dogs and I salute you for that, I'm the same, but I think you have your own agenda regarding bad dog breeding in Ireland, please don't blame this on me.. I played no part in it.
I have acknowledged your advice and am grateful for it.

If, and i say if you decide to breed her, only for reasons other than what i have stated, then yes, you will be contributing to the bad breeding practices in Ireland, but hopefully you will take the advice on board and contact the breed club and get advice of the experts and they can point you in the right direction and fill you in on breed information and practices for red and white setters.
I have given you advice on whats the best way to go about it and why a pedigree dog should only be bred from.
If you choose not to follow this then that is your choice, but it is not responsible breeding then, end of.

transit260

I leave battered and bruised,I acknowlege you all have the best interests of the dogs at heart,whatever happens I hope its for the best,best of luck to all,byeeee:o:D

lrushe

caroline1111 wrote: »

Andreac please don't try and paint me as a fool, I havn't just decided on a whim to breed her, when I bought her nearly two years ago I had it in mind and I knew she'd be coming in heat around now but it just crept up on me, I've been preoccupied with college exams and stuff.
As for breeding an entire litter of pups (maybe even 12 or something) purely to keep one for myself I think this would be a bit ridiculous.
As for other people questioning my motives amd mentioning money and back yard breeding, please don't insult me....
Her mother was a family pet, family reared, as my litter would be, I really don't see whats wrong with that...
I know alot of you here are very passionate about dogs and I salute you for that, I'm the same, but I think you have your own agenda regarding bad dog breeding in Ireland, please don't blame this on me.. I played no part in it.
I have acknowledged your advice and am grateful for it.

Caroline I don't think anyone is making you out to be a fool, people are just pointing out what is needed before breeding and in fairness no one here knows you or your depth of knowledge other than what you've written in your posts. Your OP asks about studs and registrations etc. which most people with the desire to breed would have done research in months in advance of their bitch coming into heat. However you bitch is still very young so you still have plenty of time to do this.
People have this preception that a BYB is a some kind of monster and while some are, some are just niave or misinformed, they think, I have a nice dog, I'll find another nice dog and we'll have some nice puppies and all will be rosy in the garden. Sometimes people may get on fine and nothing will happen and other times you end up with with someone knocking on your door a year down the line with a deaf dog, crippled dog etc. (problems Setters suffer with). Taking this kind of gamble is not fair on the new owner or the dog with the health problems who in reality should never have been born.
Caroline I don't doubt you have the best intentions with regard your dog and this is why you will understand why people are so passionate about, not stopping people breeding but seeing people breeding correctly and to stop the downhill slide alot of pedigree dogs are on.

caroline1111

ISDW, i never said i wouldn't do the relevant health tests. As for the agenda comment, I ment this in a good way, you want to end bad breeding (just don't take it out on me)
Andreac you know nothing about me or my dogs so please don't insist on me contributing to bad breeding practices. I have said I will take all information onboard before breeding her.

andreac

caroline1111 wrote: »

ISDW, i never said i wouldn't do the relevant health tests. As for the agenda comment, I ment this in a good way, you want to end bad breeding (just don't take it out on me)
Andreac you know nothing about me or my dogs so please don't insist on me contributing to bad breeding practices. I have said I will take all information onboard before breeding her.

Please read my posts correctly. I said "IF" you "dont" carry out the relevent tests and practices i recommended, then yes, its is contributing to bad breeding practices.

Cherry Blossom

OP, you haven't given reasons why you want to breed your dog, do you mind if I ask why you do? You say you find it ridiculous that you should breed her just because you want one of her pups yourself, frankly I agree. I was told by 2 vets that I should breed a litter from my terrier, one of whom has had extensive experience showing the breed herself. My dog is unregistered and from working lines and I have her purely as a pet so I had her neutered. To be perfectly honest if I wanted a rare breed like a red and white setter I would go to ends of the earth to make sure I got one that came from parents that were fully tested for genetic illness relevant to the breed, they are a working breed so I'd also expect both parents to have competed and been successful in field trials. This would be for a puppy I intended to keep as a family pet, if I wanted to show or have any intention of breeding from this pup in the future I'd have requirements that were much stricter.

Rare breed = Extremely small gene pool => Much bigger risk of genetic problems and bigger consequences on the breed as a whole.

It really is as simple as that, I really don't understand how there is a debate in this case at all, it couldn't really be any more clear cut. All this talk of genetic problems in other breeds . . . this is exactly how they got like that in the first place.

ETA - I'll go even further than that, if your dog has all the relevant breed tests done, the same with the sire, there is proven to be no history of health defects in the lines and if you feel like doing some field trials with her, I'll give a five star home to one of your pups

ISDW

caroline1111 wrote: »

ISDW, i never said i wouldn't do the relevant health tests. As for the agenda comment, I ment this in a good way, you want to end bad breeding (just don't take it out on me)
Andreac you know nothing about me or my dogs so please don't insist on me contributing to bad breeding practices. I have said I will take all information onboard before breeding her.

caroline1111 wrote: »

In an ideal world going through all these procedures, etc would be the best thing but I doubt that in reality many people do them, though I will endeavour to.

This is what I was basing what I was saying on, you didn't say you would do the tests, you said you would endeavour to, which I took as meaning you would try to, possibly me adding 2 and 2 together and coming up with 17.

Anyhoo, shock horror now to those posters who think some of us always agree with each other and back each other up and all that other nonsense (although I did notice a few of them 'sticking together' and liking each others posts - but thats them, I guess thats different:p) I don't actually hold that much store by a dog being a champion show dog, especially when its from a working breed. A lot of show dogs looks totally different to the working lines in the same breed. I personally think that any dog from a working breed shouldn't be allowed to be a champion until it has shown it is good in the show ring and in the field.

The friend with the setter I mentioned above also has a red and white, and she works her dogs in harness, like huskies, and they are fantastic at it, they won a competition in the UK last season, beating huskies easily, they flew around the trails. Lovely dogs.

scudzilla

andreac wrote: »

If, and i say if you decide to breed her, only for reasons other than what i have stated, then yes, you will be contributing to the bad breeding practices in Ireland, but hopefully you will take the advice on board and contact the breed club and get advice of the experts and they can point you in the right direction and fill you in on breed information and practices for red and white setters.
I have given you advice on whats the best way to go about it and why a pedigree dog should only be bred from.
If you choose not to follow this then that is your choice, but it is not responsible breeding then, end of, and that is the last thing i have to say on this thread!!!

andreac wrote: »

Please read my posts correctly. I said "IF" you "dont" carry out the relevent tests and practices i recommended, then yes, its is contributing to bad breeding practices.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

andreac

scudzilla wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Is that all you have to contribute to this thread?? Why bother posting if all you can do is post smilies? :rolleyes:

scudzilla

andreac wrote: »

Is that all you have to contribute to this thread?? Why bother posting if all you can do is post smilies? :rolleyes:

I haven't contributed because as normal, whenever ANYBODY asks for advice on breeding here they get jumped on with all sorts of Negativity.

The OP asked for advice on Breeding, nothing else, yet she's been hammered in most posts.

That's why i don't bother me arse posting in threads like this

And the smileys were sarcastic one's, you said that you'd made your last post, yet were back within 3 posts again.

andreac

scudzilla wrote: »

I haven't contributed because as normal, whenever ANYBODY asks for advice on breeding here they get jumped on with all sorts of Negativity.

The OP asked for advice on Breeding, nothing else, yet she's been hammered in most posts.

That's why i don't bother me arse posting in threads like this

And the smileys were sarcastic one's, you said that you'd made your last post, yet were back within 3 posts again.

They didnt get jumped on at all.

I contributed with good advice, not negativity. I outlined exactly whats necessary with regards breeding your dog and what should and shouldnt be done.
I didnt see you giving any advice whether it be good or bad.

I have first hand experience with breeding dogs as i own a stud dog so i know what you should be doing when considering breeding your dog so i gave the advice. I didnt post any negativity.

If you cant be bothered to give advice then why bother posting silly comments like sarcastic smilies etc, its hardly helping the thread.

andreac

pitbull_fanatic wrote: »

and as the OP said she was looking into specific breed health tests and she wanted advice on the procedure of getting a stud dog, documentation and everything to go with it. she's willing to do it right. it doesnt matter who she's breeding them for, she doesnt have to post here who she plans on giving them to. she just asked for advice. and 2 pages later she stil knows as much as she did last week.[/QUOTE]

Eh, no she doesnt. Have you read my posts and the advice i have given her?

I gave exactly the advice and procedures that are needed and what should be done when considering breeding your dog.

ppink

I must need a nap cause Caroline1111 I really do not see where you feel you have been jumped on here with "negativity" and getting "hammered"??

not much point in anyone trying to help you unless you tell us what parts of this advice you feel is attacking you?

ISDW

scudzilla wrote: »

I haven't contributed because as normal, whenever ANYBODY asks for advice on breeding here they get jumped on with all sorts of Negativity.

The OP asked for advice on Breeding, nothing else, yet she's been hammered in most posts.

That's why i don't bother me arse posting in threads like this

And the smileys were sarcastic one's, you said that you'd made your last post, yet were back within 3 posts again.

But yet you didn't make any sarcastic comments when transit260 said they wouldn't post anymore and continued to do so.

You and others go on about a 'clique' and how these kind of threads will go, yet there is a group of people who attack certain posters every time, which is why these threads tend to go in the direction you say they do - hmmm, maybe theres something in that.

I cannot see where the OP has been hammered, she asked for advice, was given it, then she was told that she has the right to breed her dog if she wants to - but there was absolutely no advice whatsoever given in that or follow up posts by that poster, or their 'friends' so how are they helping the OP at all?

The only people who have actually given advice on what the OP asked are the people that you and your friends have slated for attacking her. Go figure.:rolleyes:

caroline1111

yikes guys I'm getting out of here, at this stage even studying gluconeogenesis looks inviting.
No seriously though, sorry if I've come across ungrateful. I appreciate all that you've said and will educate myself further and have my dog tested and showed before I breed her, if I decide to at all.
Thanks,
Caroline.

pitbull_fanatic

see what i mean??? ye gang up on people wit yer clannish ****e and cant help the girl. who gives a **** what her reasons for breeding are?? it has nothing got to do with any of ye?! stop trying to get yerselfes involved and nosing into her business. it wasnt her question. jus give advice. give all the advice ye have. the only one giving advice is andreac but its like good cop bad cop...

my friend...my friends dog had...my friend did...i no this person...

jus coz all yer friends seem to breed a dog a day doesnt mean the op does. i'v never heard of so many people in one place against breeding but all yer friends are breeding like rabbits. one friend dog wit ****ed up eyelids another with friends who lost 2 bitches during birth this year alone...come on. look closer to home to stop this over breeding instead of jumping down 1 persons throat because she asked a question on breeding. have a word with yer buddies. and as i said earlier, ye gang up and scare people away. not from breeding but from the forum. its like the game "hit the knacker" and 50 runs at ya...no doubt there will be a reply to this and about 6 people saying thanks. i can predict who is going to reply, and who is going to thank. same ol same ol. and then one of the thankers will reply say the same as the first one and everyone will thank that. its not a game people. and its not hard to answer questions either. have you ever learned not to answer a question with a question?? its not very helpfull at all.