Many Anglicans Will Become Catholic This Easter

Keylem

Personal ordinariate will bring nearly 1,000 people into the Church.

Share by SIMON CALDWELL (CNS) 04/21/2011

LONDON (CNS) — The first personal ordinariate created for former Anglicans who decided to enter the Catholic Church will reach almost 1,000 by the end of the Easter vigil.

The count of people entering the personal ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham includes more than 60 former Anglican clergy.

The personal ordinariate was established under Pope Benedict XVI’s November 2009 apostolic constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus. It allows the group reception of former Anglicans into the Catholic Church while allowing them to retain much of their distinctive patrimony, including married priests, as well as their liturgical practices.

Msgr. Keith Newton, who heads the ordinariate, told Catholic News Service that although he was incardinated into the structure after it was established by Vatican decree Jan. 15, it was only during Holy Week that he felt it was coming alive.

“This is the start of it. The lay faithful moving into the Catholic Church is really the start of the ordinariate. Until now, there have been only about a dozen members, but now it is growing to between 900 and a thousand,” he said.

“It is not an enormous number of people in Catholic terms, or even for the Church of England, but it is quite significant that such a number of people are making this step together,” Msgr. Newton added.

LINK: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...c-this-easter/

getz

Keylem wrote: »

Personal ordinariate will bring nearly 1,000 people into the Church.

Share by SIMON CALDWELL (CNS) 04/21/2011

LONDON (CNS) — The first personal ordinariate created for former Anglicans who decided to enter the Catholic Church will reach almost 1,000 by the end of the Easter vigil.

The count of people entering the personal ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham includes more than 60 former Anglican clergy.

The personal ordinariate was established under Pope Benedict XVI’s November 2009 apostolic constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus. It allows the group reception of former Anglicans into the Catholic Church while allowing them to retain much of their distinctive patrimony, including married priests, as well as their liturgical practices.

Msgr. Keith Newton, who heads the ordinariate, told Catholic News Service that although he was incardinated into the structure after it was established by Vatican decree Jan. 15, it was only during Holy Week that he felt it was coming alive.

“This is the start of it. The lay faithful moving into the Catholic Church is really the start of the ordinariate. Until now, there have been only about a dozen members, but now it is growing to between 900 and a thousand,” he said.

“It is not an enormous number of people in Catholic terms, or even for the Church of England, but it is quite significant that such a number of people are making this step together,” Msgr. Newton added.

LINK: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...c-this-easter/

good luck to them, they still believe the earth is flat

alois

As a devout Catholic I cringed when I saw this post. I don't think inflammatory threads like this help anyone.

philologos

Let them at it, there are people going from RCC to Anglicanism too. Personally I don't see the point of gloating about people moving between churches. It is about bringing people who don't know Jesus to Him and it is God's work and not ours. Swapping people between churches doesn't do that it just puffs up egos.

Keylem

alois wrote: »

As a devout Catholic I cringed when I saw this post. I don't think inflammatory threads like this help anyone.

As a devout Catholic I rejoiced at the news, why would you cringe? It wasn't meant to be inflammatory. :mad:

As this is a Christian Forum, and no seperate Catholic Forum, I thought I would post it here.

From what I gather Anglican ministers were unhappy with the way their church was going, SS marriage, women clergy etc., so they left!!

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/01/more-anglican-priests-to-join-catholic.html

getz

Jakkass wrote: »

Let them at it, there are people going from RCC to Anglicanism too. Personally I don't see the point of gloating about people moving between churches. It is about bringing people who don't know Jesus to Him and it is God's work and not ours. Swapping people between churches doesn't do that it just puffs up egos.

its not what is being said,its what isent being said,the catholic church is losing priests everyday, this is the problem.italy cardinal ruini said that the problem is acute,camerino,san severino march diocess has not ordained a priest for 16 years. the number of priests in england and wales has fallen from 7000 in 1980 to 5,500.and half the priests are over 60. honduras has fewer than 400 priests to serve five million catholics.canadian bishop has patitioned the vatican to ordain married deacons to priesthood ,the diocese has 19 priests to serve 30,000 catholics. australia with five million catholics has only 80 seminarians for the entire country,in the US 27% of US parishes do not have a resident priest.the archdioses of ottawa appointed a group of pastorial coordinators,lay people and religious woman to preform ,marriages,baptisms and funerals,[the appointments made in accordance of the code of canon law] all i am saying it is good for the catholic church but to little to late.to get their numbers back up they will have to bring themselfs into the 21st century ,

Keylem

Jakkass wrote: »

Let them at it, there are people going from RCC to Anglicanism too. Personally I don't see the point of gloating about people moving between churches. It is about bringing people who don't know Jesus to Him and it is God's work and not ours. Swapping people between churches doesn't do that it just puffs up egos.

It's also about bringing people to the 'Truth' about God. SS marriage and Women Clergy doesn't seem to cut it for some. Many Anglicans are saddened the way their church is going, same as Catholics are saddened about Clerical abuse!

Keylem

getz wrote: »

its not what is being said,its what isent being said,the catholic church is losing priests everyday, this is the problem.italy cardinal ruini said that the problem is acute,camerino,san severino march diocess has not ordained a priest for 16 years. the number of priests in england and wales has fallen from 7000 in 1980 to 5,500.and half the priests are over 60. honduras has fewer than 400 priests to serve five million catholics.canadian bishop has patitioned the vatican to ordain married deacons to priesthood ,the diocese has 19 priests to serve 30,000 catholics. australia with five million catholics has only 80 seminarians for the entire country,in the US 27% of US parishes do not have a resident priest.the archdioses of ottawa appointed a group of pastorial coordinators,lay people and religious woman to preform ,marriages,baptisms and funerals,[the appointments made in accordance of the code of canon law] all i am saying it is good for the catholic church but to little to late.to get their numbers back up they will have to bring themselfs into the 21st century ,

Sometimes God works in mysterious ways, it may be that our future clergy may come from other denominations. The Church began with just 12 Apostles!

As for bringing themselves into the 21st Century, they did fine during the other 20 centuries.

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Matt: 24:35) To put it bluntly the world will change etc., but the words of Christ doesn't!

philologos

Keylem wrote: »

It's about bringing people to the 'Truth' abouth God. SS marriage and Women Clergy doesn't seem to cut it for some. Many Anglicans are saddened the way their church is going, same as Catholics are saddened about Clerical abuse!

I don't think the RCC has a greater grasp of the truth than any other Christian church which faithfully teaches the Gospel. I also don't believe that the RCC is in any less difficulty right now than Anglicanism is.

Most Catholics who post on here don't know the full story of what is going on in the Anglican Communion and indeed has been since 2003.

It isn't simply just conservative Anglicans who are going to Rome, but those who are conservative who are inclined towards Catholicism. Those who are conservative but Reformed are staying and want to influence Anglicanism from within rather than dropping and leaving. Hence why there were issues in the US because Anglican churches were splitting from the Episcopal Church of the USA. I see this split as also being destructive even as someone who would be inclined towards a more conservative viewpoint.

Personally I think it is better in Anglicanism that there is a discussion what issues there are in the church openly rather than hiding them.

getz

Keylem wrote: »

Sometimes God works in mysterious ways, it may be that our future clergy may come from other denominations. The Church began with just 12 Apostles!

As for bringing themselves into the 21st Century, they did fine during the other 20 centuries.

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Matt: 24:35) To put it bluntly the world will change etc., but the words of Christ doesn't!

you may well be right,the big problem that is facing the churches ,protestant and catholic in this day and age i,s that people are more educated than their ancestors,like 12 apostles,the new testament states there were 19 apostles,jesus picked 12,matthias was picked to replace judas,paul was a apostle,barnabus,james[jesus brother],anoronicus and junia,christ himself was considered a apostle,heb 3.1,to be a apostle. according to 1cor 1.1& 9,you must have seen the lord and been called directly to him,i would also consider mary magdalene a apostle[apostle to the apostles] the main reason churches fell into the number 12 trap was because to the jews 12 was a sacred number[12 tribes of israel ect]

Festus

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think the RCC has a greater grasp of the truth than any other Christian church which faithfully teaches the Gospel.

Which other Christian church faithfully teaches the Gospel, or teaches the Gospel faithfully?

Beyond the Catholic church there are any tens of thousands of ways the Gospel is taught. Which one is faithful to the truth?

There can be only one truth and if, in your opinion the Catholic church doesn't grasp it, then who does? You?

Festus

Keylem wrote: »

Personal ordinariate will bring nearly 1,000 people into the Church.


“This is the start of it. The lay faithful moving into the Catholic Church is really the start of the ordinariate. Until now, there have been only about a dozen members, but now it is growing to between 900 and a thousand,” he said.

Rock on guys, Come on in. We've been waiting and we'll wait for all of ye

georgieporgy

getz wrote: »

you may well be right,the big problem that is facing the churches ,protestant and catholic in this day and age i,s that people are more educated than their ancestors,like 12 apostles,the new testament states there were 19 apostles,jesus picked 12,matthias was picked to replace judas,paul was a apostle,barnabus,james[jesus brother],anoronicus and junia,christ himself was considered a apostle,heb 3.1,to be a apostle. according to 1cor 1.1& 9,you must have seen the lord and been called directly to him,i would also consider mary magdalene a apostle[apostle to the apostles] the main reason churches fell into the number 12 trap was because to the jews 12 was a sacred number[12 tribes of israel ect]

this would be somewhat of a novel view, no?

philologos

Festus wrote: »

Which other Christian church faithfully teaches the Gospel, or teaches the Gospel faithfully?

I believe that churches of varying denominations do this, even many Anglican churches, not all but many. Indeed, many Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist and churches of other denominations preach clearly as to what the Gospel is. It isn't a gift endowed to any one denomination more so than others.

Festus wrote: »

Beyond the Catholic church there are any tens of thousands of ways the Gospel is taught. Which one is faithful to the truth?

What is Biblical as I would see it.

Festus wrote: »

There can be only one truth and if, in your opinion the Catholic church doesn't grasp it, then who does? You?

The Christian message as is established in Scripture is the truth. The Christian message is what makes us Christians. Being a Catholic is pretty useless unless you believe in the foundations of the Christian gospel as is being Protestant, or Orthodox for that matter.

hinault

Keylem wrote: »

As a devout Catholic I rejoiced at the news, why would you cringe? It wasn't meant to be inflammatory. :mad:

As this is a Christian Forum, and no seperate Catholic Forum, I thought I would post it here.

From what I gather Anglican ministers were unhappy with the way their church was going, SS marriage, women clergy etc., so they left!!

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/01/more-anglican-priests-to-join-catholic.html

We need our own Roman Catholic sub forum.

As regards admitting Anglicans to the Roman Catholic Church? Allowing Anglican clergy to maintain their lifestyle within the RCC seems wrong to me.
Admit them as laity for sure.
But the RCC should not confer Holy Orders on these former Anglicans.

Donatello

hinault wrote: »

We need our own Roman Catholic sub forum.

As regards admitting Anglicans to the Roman Catholic Church? Allowing Anglican clergy to maintain their lifestyle within the RCC seems wrong to me.
Admit them as laity for sure.
But the RCC should not confer Holy Orders on these former Anglicans.

I would support an RC forum but I don't think there is the Catholic population to support it. It could be fierce quiet. On the other hand, there is an independent Catholic Ireland forum here (although it looks fairly quit too tbh), so it could work if Catholics were given their own forum.

Anyhow, I had a question. I don't know if anyone on here can answer it, but I was wondering if there is any appetite of any CoI folks coming over to Rome? I spoke about it to a friend's father but he was like no way. So I dunno. Anyone got any thoughts on that? Are there any trad Anglicans in Ireland who might come over?

PDN

Keylem wrote: »

As a devout Catholic I rejoiced at the news, why would you cringe? It wasn't meant to be inflammatory. :mad:

As this is a Christian Forum, and no seperate Catholic Forum, I thought I would post it here.

Think of it this way. Every day hundreds, if not thousands, of Roman Catholics in Latin America become Pentecostals.

Do you understand that if I posted a thread crowing about that then it would come across as insensitive and inflammatory to the RC posters here?

Donatello

PDN wrote: »

Think of it this way. Every day hundreds, if not thousands, of Roman Catholics in Latin America become Pentecostals.

Do you understand that if I posted a thread crowing about that then it would come across as insensitive and inflammatory to the RC posters here?

That's just proof positive that we in the Catholic Church have not been doing our job. (Bishops and priests - a lot of the blame/responsibility rests at your feet!).

We'd take it on the chin as the wake-up call it is.

Festus

PDN wrote: »

Think of it this way. Every day hundreds, if not thousands, of Roman Catholics in Latin America become Pentecostals.

The Bible does support the concept that Apostasy will preceed the Judgement Day.

Guess we're seeing that in spades

Keylem

PDN wrote: »

Think of it this way. Every day hundreds, if not thousands, of Roman Catholics in Latin America become Pentecostals.

Do you understand that if I posted a thread crowing about that then it would come across as insensitive and inflammatory to the RC posters here?

Not to me it would, to those who leave the RC Church, it would be their loss.

"For many are invited, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Matthew 7:13

BrianCalgary

One thing I found disturbing on this thread was the desire to have a seperate RC sub-forum. There-in lies the problem of Christianity in todays world.
Why the need to be seperate?

As for being faithful to the gospel, the main tenet of Christianity is summed up very nicely in both the Nicean Creed and the Apostles Creed, which every denomination agrees upon. Everything else is secondary to Christian understanding.

I classify myself as an evangelical yet the ministry I do is in the Catholic school system. Here I work with very devout Catholics. I go to mass at one of the schools every week that it is offered and on Sunday I am at my evangelical church. I feel comfy in both and uncomfy in both at different times. Yet in both I encounter God.

The people I work with at the schools and myself share a common interest: helping teenagers grow in their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Sorry, but the one thing I can't stomach is the position of 'my denomination is the 'one' true denomination', it is a divisive stance and one that I dont think God would be very appreciative of as He has declared for His people to minister where He decides.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Festus

BrianCalgary wrote: »

One thing I found disturbing on this thread was the desire to have a seperate RC sub-forum. There-in lies the problem of Christianity in todays world.
Why the need to be seperate?

Quite right. What we need is a Christian forum that is ostensibly Catholic and any number of sub-fora for the protesters. Much like the real world.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Sorry, but the one thing I can't stomach is the position of 'my denomination is the 'one' true denomination', it is a divisive stance and one that I dont think God would be very appreciative of as He has declared for His people to minister where He decides.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

We were all Christians united under one universal Catholic Church, apart for the odd heretical sect, until someone had a hissy fit and decided that disobedience was preferable.

Would that more of our separated brothers and sisters would take note of Corinthians, swallow their pride, and return to the Church.

Keylem

BrianCalgary wrote: »

One thing I found disturbing on this thread was the desire to have a seperate RC sub-forum. There-in lies the problem of Christianity in todays world.
Why the need to be seperate?

As for being faithful to the gospel, the main tenet of Christianity is summed up very nicely in both the Nicean Creed and the Apostles Creed, which every denomination agrees upon. Everything else is secondary to Christian understanding.

I classify myself as an evangelical yet the ministry I do is in the Catholic school system. Here I work with very devout Catholics. I go to mass at one of the schools every week that it is offered and on Sunday I am at my evangelical church. I feel comfy in both and uncomfy in both at different times. Yet in both I encounter God.

The people I work with at the schools and myself share a common interest: helping teenagers grow in their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Sorry, but the one thing I can't stomach is the position of 'my denomination is the 'one' true denomination', it is a divisive stance and one that I dont think God would be very appreciative of as He has declared for His people to minister where He decides.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination it is THE original Church established by Christ in the 1st century, all other christian churches are spin-offs.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/origin.htm

JimiTime

Here's a question, is Festus representative of a REAL RC? At the end of the day, he seems to have institutional backups for much of his anti-christian diatribes. Is it that the more, shall we say, classy, practising RC's here are just not fervent about their Churches teaching?

Is it Festus that is actually closer to revealing the RCC rather than what we would consider the more Christian members? I mean, how often do we see Christians wade into discussions declaring that 'God doesn't mind fornication etc', or 'he doesn't care if you sinned, you are still his child' etc. Only to be greeted by slaps on the back saying 'yeah, you are a REAL Christian etc', when in actual fact, he's just presenting something that isn't so. I like to think of Prinz, lmaopml etc as fellow Christians who happen to be RC's, and look at THEM as more representative. Is it a case though, that these are Christians IN SPITE of the RCC, and that people like Festus are actually MORE representative of the RCC? Would like to hear if the other catholics can show if Festus is actually unrepresentative of the RCC, because as irritating as his anti christian diatribes are, he does seem to have a solid RC basis for them. What say yee?

Slav

Christ is risen!

How would you describe that state of the Christianity forum on boards.ie where when you see another portion of good "Catholic vs Protestant" trolling you don't go get yourself some popcorn any more as you're pretty sure there won't be any good show?

homer911

Slav wrote: »

How would you describe that state of the Christianity forum on boards.ie

Thankfully this is one thread and not representative of the entire forum. The small number of RC posters on this particular thread are doing themselves and the Christian Faith a great dis-service. Let's use this forum to encourage one another, answer questions from believers and non-believers and debate issues that really matter. Nothing thrills Satan (and all the atheists following this thread) more than "Christians" acting like this. We are called to be witnesses to Christ - lets set an example!(and sorry to the mods if this sounds like back seat modding but I am quite annoyed by the "puffed up pride" that some posters are exhibiting on this thread and it is a terrible example of Christian witness)

Morbert

Keylem, do you believe non-catholic Christians will get into heaven? If you consider how the RC Church has screwed the pooch regarding much of Christ's teachings, I can't see God chastising "apostates".

Keylem

Morbert wrote: »

Keylem, do you believe non-catholic Christians will get into heaven? If you consider how the RC Church has screwed the pooch regarding much of Christ's teachings, I can't see God chastising "apostates".

I absolutely believe that anyone CAN get to heaven but they will be few in number and that includes Catholics.

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Moral/FewSaved.htm

The Catholic Church holds the fullness of the truth, I also believe other christian denominations teach some truth.

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24659

Keylem

homer911 wrote: »

Thankfully this is one thread and not representative of the entire forum. The small number of RC posters on this particular thread are doing themselves and the Christian Faith a great dis-service. Let's use this forum to encourage one another, answer questions from believers and non-believers and debate issues that really matter. Nothing thrills Satan (and all the atheists following this thread) more than "Christians" acting like this. We are called to be witnesses to Christ - lets set an example!(and sorry to the mods if this sounds like back seat modding but I am quite annoyed by the "puffed up pride" that some posters are exhibiting on this thread and it is a terrible example of Christian witness)

Maybe from your prospective it may look like it's puffed up pride, but I can assure you it's not. The reason for posting this thread is, in SPITE of the carry on of some of the clergy in the CC. there are still some people who agree with the DOCTRINE of the Church. I don't base my belief on what the clergy do, but on the Magisterium of the Church, handed down by Christ through the Apostles and their successors.

Donatello

JimiTime wrote: »

Here's a question, is Festus representative of a REAL RC? At the end of the day, he seems to have institutional backups for much of his anti-christian diatribes. Is it that the more, shall we say, classy, practising RC's here are just not fervent about their Churches teaching?

Is it Festus that is actually closer to revealing the RCC rather than what we would consider the more Christian members? I mean, how often do we see Christians wade into discussions declaring that 'God doesn't mind fornication etc', or 'he doesn't care if you sinned, you are still his child' etc. Only to be greeted by slaps on the back saying 'yeah, you are a REAL Christian etc', when in actual fact, he's just presenting something that isn't so. I like to think of Prinz, lmaopml etc as fellow Christians who happen to be RC's, and look at THEM as more representative. Is it a case though, that these are Christians IN SPITE of the RCC, and that people like Festus are actually MORE representative of the RCC?

That is quite a judgemental post. Some people, myself included, are zealous for the faith, and sometimes, we get it wrong in our approach. But to then declare a person, on this basis, as not a real Christian, is a bit much. We are all on a learning curve - learning to become perfect as Christ is perfect.

It's also quite horrible in the attitude expressed towards the Catholic Church. Look at the glorious lives of the saints, there you will see what all Catholics, indeed, all men, are called to: perfect holiness. And also you might look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church if you want to know what the Church believes and teaches.

It's always the way that the person, be it on the web or in a parish, be he a priest or a layman, who upholds the Church teaching (usually on a matter of sexual morality) is rigid, un-pastoral, lacking in compassion, whilst the person who dissents from Church teaching, especially be he a priest, is labelled compassionate, despite the 'rigid and oppressive teachings' of his Church.

True compassion presents the truth, even if it is difficult, because people need the truth which Christ desired to give them.

BrianCalgary

Unfortunate responses, but not unexpected and you would be chastised by the parishes I work with as being un Christ like.
For teh record I am neither protestant nor Catholic as both have their identity in Rome. My identity is wrapped up serving Jesus Christ.

The elitist attitude brings smiles onto the faces of Satans minions and disregards the message of St Paul in Corinthians.

I have seen the same attitude displayed by zealous protestant in their slamming of the RC's. Similarly un Christ like behaviour.

Keylem

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Unfortunate responses, but not unexpected and you would be chastised by the parishes I work with as being un Christ like.
For teh record I am neither protestant nor Catholic as both have their identity in Rome. My identity is wrapped up serving Jesus Christ.

The elitist attitude brings smiles onto the faces of Satans minions and disregards the message of St Paul in Corinthians.

I have seen the same attitude displayed by zealous protestant in their slamming of the RC's. Similarly un Christ like behaviour.

Who made you Judge?
Judge not lest you yourself be judged. (Matt: 7 1-5)

One of the Catholic Spiritual works of mercy is to instruct the ignorant:

It is not surprising, then, that St. Paul frequently exhorted his closest collaborators to make teaching the Gospel of Christ their first priority. For example, in his second letter to Timothy, he writes (4:1-5), “I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus… proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient, convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry.”

http://www.catholicsun.org/bishop/032008bishop.html

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Unfortunate responses, but not unexpected and you would be chastised by the parishes I work with as being un Christ like.

The question remains however, are they MORE representative of the RCC? We look at the elitist view that the RCC has had over history, and its role in shall we say, 'quieting' any church that was not in subjection to Rome.

So is it that the Christians within its walls are Christians IN SPITE of it, and that the hard-liners are actually MORE representative of it as an organisation?

For teh record I am neither protestant nor Catholic as both have their identity in Rome. My identity is wrapped up serving Jesus Christ.

A great way of putting it.

The elitist attitude brings smiles onto the faces of Satans minions and disregards the message of St Paul in Corinthians.

I have seen the same attitude displayed by zealous protestant in their slamming of the RC's. Similarly un Christ like behaviour.

Indeed, people use their religion (or atheism for that matter) as a one-upmanship position all the time, being puffed up with 'knowledge' rather than built up with Love. Its so easy to get sucked in (something i can't deny of myself at times btw). Its only when one realises that its a mercy, a gift, and not something you yourself can pat yourself on the back for, that you come to a more humble position. thats not to say that we can't or don't argue about knowledge, but getting puffed up about it is where we step outside the realms of acting as Christians.

JimiTime

Donatello wrote: »

That is quite a judgemental post. Some people, myself included, are zealous for the faith, and sometimes, we get it wrong in our approach. But to then declare a person, on this basis, as not a real Christian, is a bit much. We are all on a learning curve - learning to become perfect as Christ is perfect.

If by judgemental you mean that I am discerning that some of the more fervant are acting in something quite the opposite of Christian, then yes, I adjudge such attitudes as Pharisaical and far from Christ. Remember, before you mis-apply Christs words concerning being judgemental, that we are told to judge those in the body of Christ. Would it be 'judgemental' in the negative context you are using, to voice your disapproval of members of your clergy or church who are sexually immoral? Well, similarly we have the tools to see such Pharasaical behaviour, and call it far from Christian.

It's also quite horrible in the attitude expressed towards the Catholic Church.

Thats why it begs the question. Are the anti-Christian diatribes expressed on here, and elsewhere, representative of the RCC as an institution?

It's always the way that the person, be it on the web or in a parish, be he a priest or a layman, who upholds the Church teaching (usually on a matter of sexual morality) is rigid, un-pastoral, lacking in compassion, whilst the person who dissents from Church teaching, especially be he a priest, is labelled compassionate, despite the 'rigid and oppressive teachings' of his Church.

True compassion presents the truth, even if it is difficult, because people need the truth which Christ desired to give them.

I agree. Which is why I used the example of people patting folk on the back who say that they are Christian, but defend sexual immorality, and modern views on morality etc. Such people don't present the Christian position, but rather a position that some people want to hear. Similarly, I asked, is the RCC painted by Festus more representative of the RCC as an institution than those who I would call my RC Christian brethren? In other words, are my RC brothers Christian IN SPITE of the RCC, or is the RCC that Festus presents not a true picture?

Donatello

JimiTime wrote: »

Thats why it begs the question. Are the anti-Christian diatribes expressed on here, and elsewhere, representative of the RCC as an institution?

You should ask the Pope.

JimiTime

Donatello wrote: »

You should ask the Pope.

have you got his number:)

BrianCalgary

Keylem wrote: »

Who made you Judge?
Judge not lest you yourself be judged. (Matt: 7 1-5)

One of the Catholic Spiritual works of mercy is to instruct the ignorant:

It is not surprising, then, that St. Paul frequently exhorted his closest collaborators to make teaching the Gospel of Christ their first priority. For example, in his second letter to Timothy, he writes (4:1-5), “I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus… proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient, convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry.”

http://www.catholicsun.org/bishop/032008bishop.html

No one made me judge. However God gives us the gift of wisdom to discern that which is unbiblical or foolishness.

The idea of not-judging anyone is referring to judging someones eternal salvation.

Your comment inplying my ignorance I think is a judgement, as I can't find anything I have said to indicate ignorance. :cool:

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote: »

The question remains however, are they MORE representative of the RCC? We look at the elitist view that the RCC has had over history, and its role in shall we say, 'quieting' any church that was not in subjection to Rome.

So is it that the Christians within its walls are Christians IN SPITE of it, and that the hard-liners are actually MORE representative of it as an organisation?

My experience is the hardline elitists are the minority.

Keylem

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No one made me judge. However God gives us the gift of wisdom to discern that which is unbiblical or foolishness.

The idea of not-judging anyone is referring to judging someones eternal salvation.

Your comment inplying my ignorance I think is a judgement, as I can't find anything I have said to indicate ignorance. :cool:

My comment didn't imply anything about YOUR ignorance, but ignorance in what certain people think the Catholic Church is. For instance:

What Is The Catholic Church ?
by Bishop Fulton Sheen

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing. These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics “adore statues;” because they “put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God;” because they “say indulgence is a permission to commit sin;” because the Pope “is a Fascist;” because the Church “is the defender of Capitalism.” If the Church taught or believed any one of these things, it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.

If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world, as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times, as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because he called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly, it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. ... the Catholic Church is the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ. History is so very clear on this point, it is curious how many miss its obviousness..." Bishop Fulton Sheen.

hinault

BrianCalgary wrote: »

One thing I found disturbing on this thread was the desire to have a seperate RC sub-forum. There-in lies the problem of Christianity in todays world.
Why the need to be seperate?

As for being faithful to the gospel, the main tenet of Christianity is summed up very nicely in both the Nicean Creed and the Apostles Creed, which every denomination agrees upon. Everything else is secondary to Christian understanding.

I classify myself as an evangelical yet the ministry I do is in the Catholic school system. Here I work with very devout Catholics. I go to mass at one of the schools every week that it is offered and on Sunday I am at my evangelical church. I feel comfy in both and uncomfy in both at different times. Yet in both I encounter God.

The people I work with at the schools and myself share a common interest: helping teenagers grow in their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Sorry, but the one thing I can't stomach is the position of 'my denomination is the 'one' true denomination', it is a divisive stance and one that I dont think God would be very appreciative of as He has declared for His people to minister where He decides.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

It was me who raised the issue of a Roman Catholic sub forum and let me tell you why I raised the issue.

I am a practicing RC and I would like to exchange thoughts and views with other RC's on this forum.
I do like to exchange views with other Christian adherents on this sub forum. But a separate sub forum contributed to by Roman Catholics solely would be a great addition to those of us who want to interact with fellow church members.

With the current sub forum, it can be difficult to discern the religious persuasion of many of the contributors.

Donatello

BrianCalgary wrote: »

My experience is the hardline elitists are the minority.

That is probably correct. The fact is, the Catholic Church is infested with the lukewarm whom God has said will be spat out in disgust.

I'm as guilty as any zealous Catholic of stepping over the line from time to time and engaging in 'Catechism-bashing', however, it must be understood that we are all on a learning curve on the way to becoming perfect Christians. Are we elitists? By no means. We are sinners. We try to follow Christ and we are obedient to the Magisterium He established.

It was the 'moderate Catholics' in the UK, for example, who decided to be 'nuanced' back in 1967 when the Abortion Act was introduced. They kept silent.

Catholics who are zealous for the Lord and the true faith are the loyal and obedient children of the Catholic Church. That we may be a little rough around the edges cannot be denied, but we are constantly learning.

It is the 'hardline Catholics' who are the ones trying to stop abortion coming into Ireland, who care about the Sacred Liturgy etc... while 'pastoral priests' and ex-nun feminists ruin the faith with their vile and poisonous dissent, their distortion of the Mass, and their scorn of the Church teachings. It's the moderates and the lukewarm who will be, in the end, spat out, whilst (hopefully) the zealous will have walked the walk of holiness to reach their final reward.

Keylem

Donatello wrote: »

That is probably correct. The fact is, the Catholic Church is infested with the lukewarm whom God has said will be spat out in disgust.

I'm as guilty as any zealous Catholic of stepping over the line from time to time and engaging in 'Catechism-bashing', however, it must be understood that we are all on a learning curve on the way to becoming perfect Christians. Are we elitists? By no means. We are sinners. We try to follow Christ and we are obedient to the Magisterium He established.

It was the 'moderate Catholics' in the UK, for example, who decided to be 'nuanced' back in 1967 when the Abortion Act was introduced. They kept silent.

Catholics who are zealous for the Lord and the true faith are the loyal and obedient children of the Catholic Church. That we may be a little rough around the edges cannot be denied, but we are constantly learning.

It is the 'hardline Catholics' who are the ones trying to stop abortion coming into Ireland, who care about the Sacred Liturgy etc... while 'pastoral priests' and ex-nun feminists ruin the faith with their vile and poisonous dissent, their distortion of the Mass, and their scorn of the Church teachings. It's the moderates and the lukewarm who will be, in the end, spat out, whilst (hopefully) the zealous will have walked the walk of holiness to reach their final reward.

Also, if you are not enthusiastic about both following and defending your faith, then being lukewarm will eventually lead you on the road to apostasy.

BrianCalgary

I appreciate and understand where you guys are coming from and admire your faith in Christ as here we are very similar.

Can you see how the approach of the one true church all else are damned is very damaging to Christianity as a whole?

In the past I would not have been allowed to do what I do in the Seperate (Catholic) schools here in Calgary.

What we now have is a Christian club in the school that was started by 3 students: 1 RC, 1 Baptist and 1 Sally Ann. It is attended by students of many denominations.

The common denominator: A love for Christ and a desire to grow in their relationship with Him. A much better set-up than in the past.

Donatello

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I appreciate and understand where you guys are coming from and admire your faith in Christ as here we are very similar.

Can you see how the approach of the one true church all else are damned is very damaging to Christianity as a whole?

The Church does not teach that. I have not advocated such a position, nor have any of the others, as far as I can see, and I've been on this forum for some years now. The Church teaches that it is ordinarily necessary to belong to the Catholic Church, and that refusing to remain in it or join it, knowing full well it is the true Church, one could not be saved, but at the same time acknowledging that it is possible that non-Catholics can be saved through the graces of Jesus Christ which function even outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church but rightly belong to Her and tend towards Catholic unity.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

In the past I would not have been allowed to do what I do in the Seperate (Catholic) schools here in Calgary.

What we now have is a Christian club in the school that was started by 3 students: 1 RC, 1 Baptist and 1 Sally Ann. It is attended by students of many denominations.

The common denominator: A love for Christ and a desire to grow in their relationship with Him. A much better set-up than in the past.

That's great, but there is always the real danger in these things that the Catholic faith is downplayed in order to bring on board the Protestants. It is almost always, if not always, the case that in any of these ecumenical ventures, it is the Catholic faith that is diminished.

PDN

Donatello wrote: »

That's great, but there is always the real danger in these things that the Catholic faith is downplayed in order to bring on board the Protestants. It is almost always, if not always, the case that in any of these ecumenical ventures, it is the Catholic faith that is diminished.

If you listen to the likes of Paisley then it is the Protestant faith that is being diminished. Extremists of different stripes tend to be remarkably alike in their attitudes when it comes to warning of the dangers of Christians getting together to share fellowship.

BrianCalgary

Donatello wrote: »

The Church does not teach that. I have not advocated such a position, nor have any of the others, as far as I can see, and I've been on this forum for some years now. The Church teaches that it is ordinarily necessary to belong to the Catholic Church, and that refusing to remain in it or join it, knowing full well it is the true Church, one could not be saved, but at the same time acknowledging that it is possible that non-Catholics can be saved through the graces of Jesus Christ which function even outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church but rightly belong to Her and tend towards Catholic unity.

That may be what the Catholic church teaches. Mormons and JW's teach the same thing. I also know of a church in Veneteo, Italy who claim that true salvation is obtained by being baptized in their church. So, no, I dont belive nor do I know full well that the RC church is 'the one true church'.


[/QUOTE]That's great, but there is always the real danger in these things that the Catholic faith is downplayed in order to bring on board the Protestants. It is almost always, if not always, the case that in any of these ecumenical ventures, it is the Catholic faith that is diminished.[/QUOTE]

None of the students mentioned are protestants, they are Christian. Their identity is rooted in Jesus Christ and not in the protestation of the authority of the church in Rome.

The Catholic faith does not get diminished at all. The students who choose to worship there have an increased faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as do those who choose to worship in other denominations.

It is about being transormed by the Holy Spirit into the image of Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18

Donatello

PDN wrote: »

If you listen to the likes of Paisley then it is the Protestant faith that is being diminished. Extremists of different stripes tend to be remarkably alike in their attitudes when it comes to warning of the dangers of Christians getting together to share fellowship.

Your not so subtle attempt to label me as an 'extremist' is duly noted.

If believing in Jesus Christ and in everything His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church teaches makes me an extremist, then so be it.

The Church has been abundant with 'extremists' from the very beginning:

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Extremists, in your book obviously, are those who hear the word of God, believe it, and strive to act on it, without protest, without compromise, without watering it down to make it more palatable to the world.

PDN

Donatello wrote: »

If believing in Jesus Christ and in everything His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church teaches makes me an extremist, then so be it.

No, it doesn't. I have met many committed Roman Catholics who firmly believe the teachings of their church, but they also manage to be friendly, non-judgemental and courteous to Christians of other denominations. They are not extremist at all.

I have also met many Protestants who also hold their views very firmly, yet come across as being very different to the Paisleyites.

Extremists, in your book obviously, are those who hear the word of God, believe it, and strive to act on it, without protest, without compromise, without watering it down to make it more palatable to the world.

No, extremists, in my book obviously, are those who constantly feel the need to attack and belittle those who express their faith differently.

Donatello

PDN wrote: »

No, it doesn't. I have met many committed Roman Catholics who firmly believe the teachings of their church, but they also manage to be friendly, non-judgemental and courteous to Christians of other denominations. They are not extremist at all.

I have also met many Protestants who also hold their views very firmly, yet come across as being very different to the Paisleyites.

No, extremists, in my book obviously, are those who constantly feel the need to attack and belittle those who express their faith differently.

That's a completely unjustified character assassination of the many good Catholic members on this forum. It's also judgemental, a sin you are seemingly blind to.

I've been on this forum quite a bit over the last number of weeks, and I've not seen anything which would fit the criteria you have given of posts which 'attack or belittle'.

ArtSmart

Keylem wrote: »

As a devout Catholic I rejoiced at the news, why would you cringe? It wasn't meant to be inflammatory. :mad:

As this is a Christian Forum, and no seperate Catholic Forum, I thought I would post it here.

From what I gather Anglican ministers were unhappy with the way their church was going, SS marriage, women clergy etc., so they left!!

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/01/more-anglican-priests-to-join-catholic.html

no. they right.


in fairness to the CC, we'll take anybody.

anybody at all.

homer911

Donatello wrote: »

I've been on this forum quite a bit over the last number of weeks, and I've not seen anything which would fit the criteria you have given of posts which 'attack or belittle'.

Hi Donatello

I appreciate I am treading on dangerous ground here, but posts by you, keylem and maybe some others (but not by any means all the RC posters) contain various statements that attempt, from my perspective anyway, to lord the RC faith over any other Christian Faith.. Inwardly I say "here we go again" every time it happens, but I try to accept your perspectives where they differ from mine and are not contrary to biblical teaching

What I dont understand is your parallel criticism of the RC church in so many ways (you will probably say you are critiquing certain members/priests of the church, not the RC church itself, but I dont really see any distinction - the church is the people). No church is perfect - they never will be.