Anti-football debate

UnitedIrishman

Just thought it might start some decent debate in here but what are peoples thoughts on the term "anti-football"?

It slightly annoyed me last night when Mark Bolton - of Sky Sports La Liga coverage - started talking about his dislike of "anti-football" or basically slowing the game, getting men behind the ball, counter attacking and playing long balls out of defence.

And then in the match thread last night Mourinho was slated for negative tactics etc.

Do you think it's just smart tactics or that its not how football should be played?

stovelid

All tactics are valid. Watching a footballing team break down a defensive side can be a enjoyable as two footballing team.

I like good football as much as anybody but the complaints about anti-football from the likes of Barcelona and Arsenal acolytes is bollocks. Most of the teams on the planet can't compete with, say, Barcelona and to whine because they don't turn up and "play" (read: ship 9 goals for the enjoyment of Barca fans and a global TV audience) is unfair.

If I was a supporter of a club like Stoke, I'd prefer them to stay up than go down with a load of patronizing plaudits for "having a go" from the supporters of big teams that had hammered them.

That said, I'd prefer, say United or Shamrock Rovers (two teams with the relative resources to buy good players in their own leagues) to play good football as much as possible if they have the players to do so.

Son Of A Vidic

I think the term anti-football is ridiculous, he needs to look up the definition of the word 'Tactics'. Take boxing, some boxers are proactive and alway on the front foot. Others boxers are defensive who like to counter. Some of the greatest boxers had this latter style, so does that make them anti-boxing?.....Fcuk no.

Now a team or player who savagely tackles or cut down opposition players on the ball. That for me is anti-football, when a team or player resorts to dirty tactics when they are outclassed.

jordainius

Arsenal fan here, so I've seen my fair share of "anti-football".

I welcome it, it doesn't matter how you play, at the end of the day its all about outscoring the other team. So you do what you have to do in order to score goals and you do whatever you have to do in order to prevent the other team scoring.

The phrase in itself is utter bollox.

Essien

Its a load of bollox, football is about winning. I pisses me off when I hear people give out about it. Its the same as that "crime against football" shite I hear people going on about when the tippy tappy teams don't win.

Pepe LeFrits

I don't think there's anything particularly smart about it, if anything it's easier to setup a good defensive unit than an attacking one, but it's certainly valid. One just shouldn't expect the pundits to fawn over it.

GavRedKing

IMO any tactic that helps a team win can be justified by the result the achieve.

Nearly every team on the planet would go out and try and stop Barcelona play football for example, but not many teams can stop them and beat them. If Real Madrid had lost the game Jose would have been slated for his tactics but because they won he got it spot on.

To play anti-football tactics you need a well organised team with leaders in it, and a manager and coaching staff who can drill and train for the game. Every game is different and if a maanger can out think and adapt to a game better then another manager that shows great prepartion and coaching on his and his teams behalf.

Note : Just picked the Barca v Real game as an example as its topical, the same could be said the world over for any number of teams.

Jelle1880

Depends what people see as anti-football.

I love attacking football, but I can equally love a team that defends for all they're worth and then execute a few perfect counters and score.

UpTheSlashers

Stuff like diving and influencing the referee is anti-football. Both Barca and Real Madrid and Barca are both guilty of these. Barca dont get criticised for it as much because they play a good attack-minded passing game.

stovelid

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Stuff like diving and influencing the referee is anti-football. Both Barca and Real Madrid and Barca are both guilty of these. Barca dont get criticised for it as much because they play a good attack-minded passing game.

Good point.

Funny how some people are quick to bemoan defensive football but rationalize that cheating and getting other players sent off is just part of the game.

Jelle1880

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Stuff like diving and influencing the referee is anti-football. Both Barca and Real Madrid and Barca are both guilty of these. Barca dont get criticised for it as much because they play a good attack-minded passing game.

Tbh, the whole of Spanish and Italian football is infested with it.

UpTheSlashers

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Tbh, the whole of Spanish and Italian football is infested with it.

The whole world is infested with it. Certain Republic of Ireland players go down very easy, and weve benefitted from it many a time. What gets me is people who criticize managers like Mourinho and Pulis when there is so much else wrong with the game. Why the fúck would Real try to beat Barca with Barca's style of play when they just dont have the ability?

super_furry

Nothing wrong at all with the catenaccio system. If a team isn't good enough to break them down, then they don't deserve to win.

pickarooney

Anti-football for me is the kind of gme played by Holland in the last world cup final or Egypt in 1990. Basically disregarding the opponent's safety or playing for a draw/damage limitation. Anything else is fair game.

UpTheSlashers

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I don't think there's anything particularly smart about it, if anything it's easier to setup a good defensive unit than an attacking one, but it's certainly valid. One just shouldn't expect the pundits to fawn over it.

Defensive football is much more difficult to get results from, which makes it all the more impressive when it works. You are accepting from the start that the other team is going to have more possession and scoring chances and you set out to absorb that. Strikers who play in a defensive system should be admired, they get less chances and therefore their conversion rate needs to be very good.

fkiely

At the end of the day, you play to win. And if that require your definition of 'anti-football' than so be it. End justifies the means and all that.

Pauleta

stovelid wrote: »

All tactics are valid. Watching a footballing team break down a defensive side can be a enjoyable as two footballing team.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. The 2nd leg of Barca-Inter was one of the most enthralling games ive ever seen.

Warper

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Stuff like diving and influencing the referee is anti-football. Both Barca and Real Madrid and Barca are both guilty of these. Barca dont get criticised for it as much because they play a good attack-minded passing game.

Practically every team does this but some more so than others. I think the the team that dives the most and who are constantly barking at the refs the most would have to be Man Utd.

Insect Overlord

Warper wrote: »

Practically every team does this but some more so than others. I think the the team that dives the most and who are constantly barking at the refs the most would have to be Man Utd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKYQ5ibxslI

Fuhrer

Warper wrote: »

Practically every team does this but some more so than others. I think the the team that dives the most and who are constantly barking at the refs the most would have to be Man Utd.

I think the team that are the worst are the team that you support.

flahavaj

One man's anti-football is another man's tactical masterclass. Depends on your particular persective and bias at the time I suppose.

OhNoYouDidn't

flahavaj wrote: »

One man's anti-football is another man's tactical masterclass. Depends on your particular persective and bias at the time I suppose.

or understanding

dreamers75

Teams who do this vs "our" team piss us off the most and thats were the ate comes from.

We "used" to play nice football and attack with decent passing but when we were in Europe, we brought the bus and it worked.

So it swings both ways i used to hate Bohs for parking the bus but it was ok for us to park the European bus.

Altho i do enjoy watching a team defend really well vs another, its a fine art sometimes.

yahoo_moe

Warper wrote: »

I think the the team that dives the most and who are constantly barking at the refs the most would have to be Man Utd.

Fuhrer wrote: »

I think the team that are the worst are the team that you support.

Cheers lads - thought there might be a decent discussion developing but glad to see someone try to put a stop to it.

VW 1

I guess I echo the sentiment of a lot of posters here when I say I enjoy, or at least dont mind, seeing teams playing a defensive game as its just another tactic which can be used by a manager. However I do have a problem with what I see as anti-football, kicking lumps out of the opponents.

Or IMO, just as bad, blatant dives and rolling around on the ground as we so often see these days, some United players included in this before anyone says anything.

Also just as bad for me is the way that players surround the referee in order to try to appeal a decision or to get another player carded, waving the imaginary card also falls into this category for me. Many teams are guilty of it so I wont single out just one or two teams for it. Really irks me.
I think the thing needed to combat this is a system where ONLY the captain/s and the offending player/s are allowed to speak to or approach the referee, as it is in rugby.

I much prefer the game of football, but when it comes to rules/regulations/technology there is a lot we could learn from the game of rugby to improve our own game.

/Rant

Zebra3

I think the reason why RM get so much criticism is because of who they are.

They have spent hundreds of millions of euro getting in the best players in the world and some see it is cowardly that they retreat into their shell as it were.

RM in the past would have been scathing about clubs employing similar tactics against them.

Why anyone would get annoyed by what some bloke on Sky says is beyond me :rolleyes: what is of far greater importance is Di Stefano's criticisms at the weekend.

dreamers75

Zebra3 wrote: »

I
Why anyone would get annoyed by what some bloke on Sky says is beyond me :rolleyes:

I find it odd that the pundits on Sky moan about Anti Football considering some of them played a style of football that creaks necks at a young age.

fkiely

Zebra3 wrote: »

I think the reason why RM get so much criticism is because of who they are.

They have spent hundreds of millions of euro getting in the best players in the world and some see it is cowardly that they retreat into their shell as it were.

RM in the past would have been scathing about clubs employing similar tactics against them.

Why anyone would get annoyed by what some bloke on Sky says is beyond me :rolleyes: what is of far greater importance is Di Stefano's criticisms at the weekend.

Fair point but I’m always wary of past players comments on current affairs due purely to nostalgia. Things were always better ‘back in the day’. We’d never do that ‘in our day’. Etc.. At the end of the day football, like most things in life, is constantly evolving. We may not like many of the facets currently enshrined in the modern day game but it’s important to remember how things change in particular to this discussion. Of course Real would prefer to play the way they used to. However circumstance dictates that they’re up against one of the best sides to ever play the game. Thus Real themselves need to adopt themselves and hence why we see the current situation.

dfx-

It's fine to have the "it all counts" idea, but there's a line to be crossed. Telling your players to get rid of the ball and give it back to their opponents so as to not lose position when in possession of the ball shows a shocking lack of faith in the ability of your own players. At the top level, there is no excuse for not being able or to be trusted to keep the ball. It's no tactical masterclass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAOZDdGj6rI

Alternatively there's the occasion two/three years ago where RM came to the Nou Camp and systematically kicked players without punishment. RM have a deserved reputation. It may win them games, but nevertheless, it is a deserved and valid reputation. It's no tactical masterclass.

There is also overplaying it, a line increasingly crossed by Barcelona again (in the dying days under Rijkaard, it was endemic) and Arsenal are forever a few miles over it.

v3ttel

How boring would it be if every team had the same system, same style, etc?

A good tactical battle can be as enjoyable as a nice open end to end game.

You use the (legal) tactics that will give you the best chance of getting the result you want.

Why would you go and play Barcelona and open the game up, when you know they are better at it than you are, and you are going to get tanked?

Ultimately, if you are not playing the right way for your squad, it'll come back and bite you in the long run.

MisterAnarchy

Rooney10 wrote: »

How boring would it be if every team had the same system, same style, etc?

Well if every team played like Mourinho's Real last night ,not many people would watch football whereas if every team played like Barcelona ...
Defensive and disruptive football as epitomised by Mourinho only needs a few good attacking players and alot of fast ,physical ,athletes who will cover alot of ground,tackle and harass their opponents.
Its effective because football is such a low scoring game and extremely heavily influenced by refereeing.
Mourinho has always pushed the referees to the limit,his teams are to be admired in their workrate but time and time again they have crossed the line with persistant fouling and extremely cynical play nowadays referred to as "Professionalism"

losthorizon

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Stuff like diving and influencing the referee is anti-football. Both Barca and Real Madrid and Barca are both guilty of these. Barca dont get criticised for it as much because they play a good attack-minded passing game.

I dont "follow" as they say a spanish or English team but IMO Barcelona are the least likely team to dive etc. The average English team would be worse and I wont say what I think about the italians. Anti-football is cheating - diving, time wasting, trying to get your opponent booked etc and its everywhere now. Its even massively present in the LOI and I see it when i watch my own club Cork city. It just makes me mad and its turned me off football an awful lot. TBH it should be a red card offence.

the untitled user

My concern is the potential for injury. As players get quicker and stronger, the momentum going into every challenge, be it a foul, 50-50 or fair tackle, is increasing each season and with it the potential for a player to be on the end receiving end of a very bad injury.

A few years ago, ligament damage, breaks and muscles tears were considered 'exceptional' occurences that maybe happened once or twice a season. Now they are so routine a manager can never count on having his full starting 11 available to him, every team always seems to have more than a couple of players out to long term injuries these days. I think it's unsustainable.

I like tackling and good defensive organisation, but the physicality is a different story, the players are getting too strong for their own good. I think something is going to give eventually, and I would prefer to see the emphasis put on technique myself.

Eirebear

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Well if every team played like Mourinho's Real last night ,not many people would watch football whereas if every team played like Barcelona ...
Defensive and disruptive football as epitomised by Mourinho only needs a few good attacking players and alot of fast ,physical ,athletes who will cover alot of ground,tackle and harass their opponents.
Its effective because football is such a low scoring game and extremely heavily influenced by refereeing.
Mourinho has always pushed the referees to the limit,his teams are to be admired in their workrate but time and time again they have crossed the line with persistant fouling and extremely cynical play nowadays referred to as "Professionalism"

Sorry, but this is bollocks.

The clash of styles between the two teams at the moment is the main reason why i watched the game last night.

Your accusations against Mourinho's teams are nothing but tabloid style mockrage aswell, while it may not be a nice part of the game, i'd rather see "fast, physical athletes" than diving, cheating whiners.

Without tactics the game becomes dull, repettitive and boring.

Bodhisopha

Ultra defensive football, while not what i watch football for is not anti-football but constant, intentional, persistent fouling is anti-football. It's cheating as far as i'm concerned.

losthorizon

losthorizon wrote: »

I dont "follow" as they say a spanish or English team but IMO Barcelona are the least likely team to dive etc. The average English team would be worse and I wont say what I think about the italians. Anti-football is cheating - diving, time wasting, tring to get your opponent booked etc and its everywhere now. Its even massively present in the LOI and I see it when i watch my own club Cork city. It just makes me mad and its turned me off football an awful lot. TBH it should be a red card offence.

your opinion on Barca is wrong tbh. Busquets, Alves, Pedro and Messi are as likely to dive and wave cards as any other players and they constantly crowd the referee and can be very moody and throw strops when things don't go their way.

KeithAFC

The game is all about good players. What use is a defensive system without good players (ie, good defenders) or good attacking without good attacking players?

losthorizon

KeithAFC wrote: »

The game is all about good players. What use is a defensive system without good players (ie, good defenders) or good attacking without good attacking players?

Exactly- one of my favourite players was maldini. I cant even remember him getting booked. He was just so perfect in his positioning that mostly he didnt even need to make a tackle and when he did it was usually perfect.

The best defender I have ever seen.

Pepe LeFrits

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Defensive football is much more difficult to get results from, which makes it all the more impressive when it works. You are accepting from the start that the other team is going to have more possession and scoring chances and you set out to absorb that.

It really isn't. It's far easier to teach people to line up in two banks, track runners, plug gaps, punt the ball away etc than it is to teach people to dribble, pass in tight spaces etc in order to break such defences down. Hence the most talented players get pushed forwards and the cloggers go to the back.

Weaker teams play this way against stronger ones because it makes it more difficult for the opposition to score and reduces the importance of the difference in skill. It's why Andorra park the bus against Germany. They don't do it because they're better players and want to make it a challenge.

strawberryb0y

It's an interesting debate, it can be good to watch a good tactical battle but too many sides nowadays have adopted a policy where they try not to lose rather than trying to win and it becomes quite boring the more you see it.
For instance compare the entertainment provided in the attack dominated Euro 2008 to the borefest that was last summers world cup.
Its obviously fine for less talented teams to play whatever way they feel gives them the best chance of a result but its horrible watching teams full of world class players like Madrid and Holland play safe and boring football and will ultimately damage the sport if it continues

Most teams if they want to beat Barca need to play a real clever tactical game and basically stop them playing.

I doubt many Real fans give a fook today tbh :cool:

strawberryb0y

rarnes1 wrote: »

Most teams if they want to beat Barca need to play a real clever tactical game and basically stop them playing.

I doubt many Real fans give a fook today tbh :cool:

Fabio Capello may not agree

MisterAnarchy

Eirebear wrote: »

Sorry, but this is bollocks.

Your accusations against Mourinho's teams are nothing but tabloid style mockrage aswell

Without tactics the game becomes dull, repettitive and boring.

i'd rather see "fast, physical athletes" than diving, cheating whiners.

Why not have fast skillful technical footballers.
Who mentioned anything about diving ,cheating whiners ?
Are you trying to insinuate that skillful players are diving cheats ?
Now thats Tabloid style

The role of the holding midfielder has become more important in the modern game.
Now teams are playing with 2 holding midfielders and some with 3 ,as exemplified by last nights match.
Will it be 4 in a few years time ?
Why not just have 7 defenders while you are at it .
Football is becoming far too negative .
Look at last years World Cup ,probably the worst ever .
Soccer is supposed to be the beautiful game but it no longer really is.

Madrid normally play good attractive football but adapted against Barcelona.I like them as a team but they took the easy way out in the last 2 matches.

Mourinho was trying to influence the referees in the build up to the matches ,saying that his team always get a player sent off .
He was lucky not to have had 2 sent off in both matches this week ,his team dished out alot of cynical and persistant fouls .
It sends out a message that if a team feels its inferior to another it has to rough them up and get in their face ,play with 3 holding midfielders and concede vast amounts of possession to their opponent.

dfx-

rarnes1 wrote: »

Most teams if they want to beat Barca need to play a real clever tactical game and basically stop them playing.

But most teams who've had success this season have attacked them..

Germany was a good example of fear instilled into a team who had got so far with attacking intent and then froze into 'must defend' mode which was completely against how they had got to the semi-final in the first place..

Bodhisopha

I'd love to see how this debate would play out on an Argentinian, Brazilian or Spanish message board, you know those countries that shiit out classy players for fun. I suspect attitudes would be very different.

flahavaj

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

It really isn't. It's far easier to teach people to line up in two banks, track runners, plug gaps, punt the ball away etc than it is to teach people to dribble, pass in tight spaces etc in order to break such defences down. Hence the most talented players get pushed forwards and the cloggers go to the back.

Weaker teams play this way against stronger ones because it makes it more difficult for the opposition to score and reduces the importance of the difference in skill. It's why Andorra park the bus against Germany. They don't do it because they're better players and want to make it a challenge.

It doesn't work for Andorra though!

Jose has found a way to make it work vs Barca with two different squads of players now. Your dismissal of their performances as just "lining up with two banks of four and punting it away" grieviously underestimates the intricacy of Jose's tactial genius.

People would also do well to remember that Jose's Inter beat Barca 3-1 in the home leg last year. They were excellent on the counter attack last night and could have scored three or four. The goal they got was stunning in quality. They made as many oif not more clear-cut chances than Madrid last night too. Saying he just parks the bus is lazy, tabloid-level analysis (not necessarily what you have said btw Pepe, directed more at others).

Le King

flahavaj wrote: »

It doesn't work for Andorra though!

Jose has found a way to make it work vs Barca with two different squads of players now. Your dismissal of their performances as just "lining up with two banks of four and punting it away" grieviously underestimates the intricacy of Jose's tactial genius.

People would also do well to remember that Jose's Inter beat Barca 3-1 in the home leg last year. They were excellent on the counter attack last night and could have scored three or four. The goal they got was stunning in quality. They made as many oif not more clear-cut chances than Madrid last night too. Saying he just parks the bus is lazy, tabloid-level analysis (not necessarily what you have said btw Pepe, directed more at others).

Agreed.

Also I hate all this tippy tappy stuff about Arsenal. Fact is, most of the time they haven't been that good when they lose/draw like any other team that fails to do so. Yet, this amazing football they play every game, false, is like a Sky hyped machine to get people to believe they are Barcelona, which they are most definitely not. Don't get me wrong Arsenal play some lovely stuff and I love watching them when they do it. But when they even play poor it's this same old tippy tappy excuse. Bloody annoying as hell.

Just because it's not pretty to some doesn't mean it's a load of rubbish. Great defensive teams are nearly as enjoyable to watch as great attacking teams to some.

Organizing your talent pool efficiently to beat the best team on the planet, by quite some distance IMO, is some achievement. Mourinho had his defense organized like robots, choreographed to perfection. I don't really give a toss if Stoke kick the ball long with every kick of the game they get. If you're own manager can't adapt you're style to win the game that's his fault not theirs.

Pepe LeFrits

flahavaj wrote: »

It doesn't work for Andorra though!

Jose has found a way to make it work vs Barca with two different squads of players now. Your dismissal of their performances as just "lining up with two banks of four and punting it away" grieviously underestimates the intricacy of Jose's tactial genius.

People would also do well to remember that Jose's Inter beat Barca 3-1 in the home leg last year. They were excellent on the counter attack last night and could have scored three or four. The goal they got was stunning in quality. They made as many oif not more clear-cut chances than Madrid last night too. Saying he just parks the bus is lazy, tabloid-level analysis (not necessarily what you have said btw Pepe, directed more at others).

I wasn't referring specifically to Jose, I was making a general point on defensive teams in general. I didn't even watch the game last night (casualty of the NLD and the dire standard of sportsmanship of the first of the four Classicos), and I certainly didn't dismiss his tactics as merely two banks of four.

dreamers75

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I'd love to see how this debate would play out on an Argentinian, Brazilian or Spanish message board, you know those countries that shiit out classy players for fun. I suspect attitudes would be very different.

Watch some copa libertadores, defensive teams win quite often.

Pepe LeFrits

Le King wrote: »

Agreed.

Also I hate all this tippy tappy stuff about Arsenal. Fact is, most of the time they haven't been that good when they lose/draw like any other team that fails to do so. Yet, this amazing football they play every game, false, is like a Sky hyped machine to get people to believe they are Barcelona, which they are most definitely not. Don't get me wrong Arsenal play some lovely stuff and I love watching them when they do it. But when they even play poor it's this same old tippy tappy excuse. Bloody annoying as hell.

Just because it's not pretty to some doesn't mean it's a load of rubbish. Great defensive teams are nearly as enjoyable to watch as great attacking teams to some.

Organizing your talent pool efficiently to beat the best team on the planet, by quite some distance IMO, is some achievement. Mourinho had his defense organized like robots, choreographed to perfection. I don't really give a toss if Stoke kick the ball long with every kick of the game they get. If you're own manager can't adapt you're style to win the game that's his fault not theirs.

Yeah, imply I'm bitter because of who I support instead of just discussing the issue. Nice one.

Bodhisopha

dreamers75 wrote: »

Watch some copa libertadores, defensive teams win quite often.

No doubt but that's not the point i'm making.