Judaism & Islam

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote: »

Shut up about Islam / Judaism. Start yer own bleedin' thread!

There ye go lads.

MrStuffins

The Muslamics.... a great bunch of lads!

Zillah

I love both Judaism and Islam. I save all of my spite for Christianity, because I forget why but we're definitely ganging up on them.

Improbable

Absolutely. I'm a jewish atheist!

Dades

I can see this thread going well. :pac:

Improbable

Dades wrote: »

I can see this thread going well. :pac:

In the finest tradition of A&A.

MrStuffins

I live with a Muslim guy and I try to take as much advantage as I can to be able to learn about his faith. I've learned much from Muslim friends in the past but this guy is in a different situation because he WAS Atheist but then got involved in drink and gambling and turned to religion to pull him out of it!

We've had many an interesting conversation about both our sets of beliefs. For some reason though, he thinks the world is ending soon (i'm not sure exactly why because the only language we share is non-native Spanish, but it's definitely not the 2012 thing anyway).

One thing is for sure, he f*cking HATES the Jews!

krudler

whats this about now?

Zillah

Kill those who say Islam is violent!



Moses!



Also Moses!



Young Jews being taught the basics of international conspiracy maintenance.



The religious get back to their core values eventually.

ShooterSF

How come none of you bash Thor huh? Closet Norse lovers!!

Improbable

ShooterSF wrote: »

How come none of you bash Thor huh? Closet Norse lovers!!

Because he has a hammer and jesus was nailed to a cross. Problem?

CiaranMT

Improbable wrote: »

Because he has a hammer and jesus was nailed to a cross. Problem?

dead one

Galvasean wrote: »

There ye go lads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeA-J_FNIUo

MrStuffins wrote: »

I live with a Muslim guy and I try to take as much advantage as I can to be able to learn about his faith. I've learned much from Muslim friends in the past but this guy is in a different situation because he WAS Atheist but then got involved in drink and gambling and turned to religion to pull him out of it!

Islam has changed his life. It's really a sign justice. Would you kindly be just with your existence.

MrStuffins wrote: »

We've had many an interesting conversation about both our sets of beliefs. For some reason though, he thinks the world is ending soon (i'm not sure exactly why because the only language we share is non-native Spanish, but it's definitely not the 2012 thing anyway).

Here is some thing easy to understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK0padoAc8w

MrStuffins wrote: »

One thing is for sure, he f*cking HATES the Jews!

I don't hate jews

Improbable wrote: »

Because he has a hammer and jesus was nailed to a cross. Problem?

Respect Jesus!!!!

Thomas Paine wrote:

It is curious to observe how the theory of what is called the Christian church sprung out of the tail of the heathen mythology. A direct incorporation took place in the first instance, by making the reputed founder to be celestially begotten. The trinity of gods that then followed was no other than a reduction of the former plurality, which was about twenty or thirty thousand: the statue of Mary succeeded the statue of Diana of Ephesus; the deification of heroes changed into the canonization of saints; the Mythologists had gods for everything; the Christian Mythologists had saints for everything; the church became as crowded with one, as the Pantheon had been with the other, and Rome was the place of both. The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient Mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.

Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent kind; .

c_man

I was at a conference dinner last year and got seated between an Israeli Jew and a Jordanian Muslim. Both great lads. It was only a day or so later it clicked that I had ordered the pork... Does that cover me from allegations of only taking on Catholicism?

Gregor Samsa

dead one wrote: »

Respect Jesus!!!!

Damn straight!!!!

dead one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y61RAP4joWU

MrStuffins

dead one wrote: »

Islam has changed his life. It's really a sign justice. Would you kindly be just with your existence.

I;ve no idea what you're on about!

dead one wrote: »

I don't hate jews

Are you my flat-mate?

Zillah

dead one wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y61RAP4joWU

Nice story and all, but:

He says that they would rather their own son die than break besa.
He says that besa is considered a way into paradise.
They would be ostracised by their community if they break it.
They would probably be killed by their community if they break it.

Brown Bomber

Zillah wrote: »

Nice story and all, but:

He says that they would rather their own son die than break besa.
He says that besa is considered a way into paradise.
They would be ostracised by their community if they break it.
They would probably be killed by their community if they break it.

Actually he says "saving a life" is a way into paradise not "Besa" - Big difference.

Other than that what was the point of repeating/misquoting some of the things he said in the short video without any comment?

To the guy/girl who posted that video: thanks for sharing! That's a positive pocket of history I had no clue about before.

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

...talmudic/Rabbinical interpretation of the Bible.

Well that is the point I was labouring to make. The key to Jewish ideology is The Talmud and the post-Talmudic Rabbinical interpretations of The Bible.

And this is before even mentioning the Kaballah.

I should point out that I am not advocating that Sam Harris apply the same vitriol to The Talmud above and beyond which he applies to the other major sacred texts The Bible and The Qu'uran.

I think moral relativism is crucial along with a certain level of respect and tolerance.

The semi-argument I've seen put forth here is that Islamic dogmatism needs to be combated as a priority as it is threat nonpareil. I neither agree with this position nor deny the threat of the dogamtism of Islamic extremism. The Iraqi invasion and all it's horrors was portrayed as a Christian crusade comes to mind along with the recent Jewish loyalty oath, calls by Rabbis to rent to Jews only and promoting genocide of the Amalekites http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/01/12/israels-orthodox-rabbis-palestinians-to-the-ovens/

Which takes me back to Harris. If his selective secularism which primarily demonises Moslems is politically motivated then he is a very dangerous man indeed. Innocent Moslems are dying every day and if my brief foray into this forum has taught me anything it is that Harris commands a cult like following who I now presume also buy into the Moslem stereotype sadly.

Atheism should not be a shield for Islamaphobia.

CiaranMT

Bad idea opening this thread. BB is banned from his usual CT haunt atm, he has to go somewhere else to proselytize on the Jewish people.

Brown Bomber

CiaranMT wrote: »

Bad idea opening this thread. BB is banned from his usual CT haunt atm, he has to go somewhere else to proselytize on the Jewish people.

What an incisive rebuttal of my points. Do you have anything other than ad hominens?

dead one

Zillah wrote: »

Nice story and all, but:

He says that they would rather their own son die than break besa.
He says that besa is considered a way into paradise.
They would be ostracised by their community if they break it.
They would probably be killed by their community if they break it.

I think first you need to understand "Besa"

That story begins with a single word: Besa. It is a code of honor that’s been practiced among Albanian Muslims for centuries. Rooted in teachings from the Koran, Besa compels Muslim families to place a stranger’s needs above all else. Jews fleeing to Albania were welcomed into Muslim homes, not as refugees but as guests. Entire villages would protect them. Jews were given Muslim names, clothing, even passports.
http://www.tribecatrib.com/news/2010/december/849_kind-strangers.html

Check the same message in Quran

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors. http://quran.com/5/32

check the same message in

Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.

- Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5; Babylonian Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 37a

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Well that is the point I was labouring to make. The key to Jewish ideology is The Talmud and the post-Talmudic Rabbinical interpretations of The Bible. ..................

...thus if the bible is undermined, the whole basis falls. Much like the hadiths are irrelevant if the Quran is undermined. Does that website go into the hadith? Why no, no it doesn't.

Which means that yes, contrary to what you're trying to imply here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71749321&postcount=51
Judaism is dealt with as well as christianity and islam..

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Atheism should not be a shield for Islamaphobia.

No, it shouldn't be. Rebutting Islamophobia shouldn't be a shield for anti-semitism either.

Caoimhín

I thought this was in the bargain alert section. Odd thoughts went through my head.

CiaranMT

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What an incisive rebuttal of my points. Do you have anything other than ad hominens?

I wasn't actually addressing you, more the A&A regulars.

Carry on.

AhSureTisGrand

So... The Holocaust, eh?

robindch

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

So... The Holocaust, eh?

There'll be none of that now!

AhSureTisGrand

robindch wrote: »

There'll be none of that now!

You denying it?

Zombrex

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Which takes me back to Harris. If his selective secularism which primarily demonises Moslems is politically motivated then he is a very dangerous man indeed. Innocent Moslems are dying every day and if my brief foray into this forum has taught me anything it is that Harris commands a cult like following who I now presume also buy into the Moslem stereotype sadly.

What stereotype? You already admitted that some Muslims are fanatics who use violence and can't be reasoned with.

Which means you agree with Harris' point about the threat from violent fundamentalists who cannot be reasoned with.

Your only problem with him seems to be that his mother is Jewish, which needless to say doesn't help stereotypes much :rolleyes:

CiaranMT

Wicknight wrote: »

What stereotype? You already admitted that some Muslims are fanatics who use violence and can't be reasoned with.

Which means you agree with Harris' point about the threat from violent fundamentalists who cannot be reasoned with.

Your only problem with him seems to be that his mother is Jewish, which needless to say doesn't help stereotypes much :rolleyes:

Like I said above, better not give BB reason to post here. He'll continue the line regardless of the flaws in logic.

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

...thus if the bible is undermined, the whole basis falls.

Like I said before - yes and no. I'll see if Wikipedia can explain it better to you than I can.

Although the Hebrew term "Torah" is often translated as "Law", its actual meaning is "Instruction" or "Teaching". Rabbinic Judaism holds that the books of the Tanakh were transmitted in parallel with an oral tradition, as relayed by God to Moses and from him handed on to the scholarly and other religious leaders of each generation. Thus, in Judaism, the "Written Instruction" (Torah she-bi-khtav תורה שבכתב) comprises the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh; the "Oral Instruction" (Torah she-be'al peh תורה שבעל פה) was ultimately recorded in the Talmud (lit. "Learning") and Midrashim (lit. "Interpretations"). The interpretation of the Oral Torah is thus considered as the authoritative reading of the Written Torah.

Further, Halakha (lit. "The Path", frequently translated as "Jewish Law") is based on a "Written Instruction" together with an "Oral Instruction". Jewish law and tradition is thus not based on a literal reading of the Tanakh, but on the combined oral and written tradition.

The above mentioned Halakha is respected by the majority in Israel. And they effect the day-to-day actions of Israeli Jews down to the simplest excercise to far more reaching points like who is a Jew and the Biblical borders of Israel.

According to a 2004 Israel Central Bureau of Statistics study[on Israelis aged over 18, 8% of Israeli Jews define themselves as haredim (or Ultra-Orthodox); an additional 9% are "religious" (predominantly orthodox, also known in Israel as: Zionist-religious, national-religious and kippot srugot); 12% consider themselves "religious-traditionalists" (mostly adhering to Jewish Halakha); 27% are "non-religious traditionalists" (only partly respecting the Jewish Halakha), and 43% are "secular"

Nodin wrote: »

Much like the hadiths are irrelevant if the Quran is undermined. Does that website go into the hadith? Why no, no it doesn't. .

OK, we can forget the website if you like but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that there is apparently no documented evidence of Sam Harris ever even acknowledging the existence of The Talmud, never mind be critical of it. On the other hand he makes frequent attacks on the Hadiths.

This is the first I came across and it's more anti-Islamic nonsense.

“It is not merely that we are at war with an otherwise peaceful religion that has been ‘hijacked’ by extremists. We are at war with precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran, and further elaborated in the literature of hadith, which recounts the says and actions of the Prophet.”

Nodin wrote: »

Which means that yes, contrary to what you're trying to imply here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71749321&postcount=51
Judaism is dealt with as well as christianity and islam..

I'm sorry but no, how can you claim that Judaism has been dealt with when essentially half of it's makeup is wilfully ignored.

--- EDIT: Tanakh is the Hebrew Bible

Brown Bomber

CiaranMT wrote: »

Like I said above, better not give BB reason to post here. He'll continue the line regardless of the flaws in logic.

Is there any need for your hostility? I'm only asking questions which I would assume is a central pillar for any genuine atheists. I haven't insulted you or anyone else here and I am respecting the charter. What's the problem exactly?

AhSureTisGrand

Yeah ok whatever Sam Harris is an evil Zionist Jew/Freemason/Illuminati member/kiddie fiddler... Next thread

Zillah

Sure, Israel wouldn't have to use force if those Muslim terrorists weren't bombing innocent people.

Zillah

Zillah wrote: »

Sure, Israel wouldn't have to use force if those Muslim terrorists weren't bombing innocent people.

No you see, the Muslims never do anything like that. It's just the Jewish controlled media making that up.

Brown Bomber

Zillah wrote: »

Sure, Israel wouldn't have to use force if those Muslim terrorists weren't bombing innocent people.

Are you taking the piss?

Zillah

No. The only reason any of this is a problem is because the "Palestinians" insist on squatting on land that is, by rights, the inheritane of the Jewish people.

AhSureTisGrand

The Jews have dibs on the land dating back thousands of years

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

......................
I'm sorry but no, how can you claim that Judaism has been dealt with when essentially half of it's makeup is wilfully ignored.

...............................

If you remove the roots, you've dealt with the tree.

A massive generalisation about Israeli jews in there - I see your anti-semitism is as close to the surface as ever.

Sefirah

King Mob wrote: »

No you see, the Muslims never do anything like that. It's just the Jewish controlled media making that up.

Yeah, yeah, and I guess it's the Mossad sending rockets into southern Israel from Gaza too :rolleyes:

CiaranMT

Sefirah wrote: »

Yeah, yeah, and I guess it's the Mossad sending rockets into southern Israel from Gaza too :rolleyes:

I think KM was taking the michael a wee bit when he posted that.

Nodin

CiaranMT wrote: »

I think KM was taking the michael a wee bit when he posted that.

You'll find this a great example of Poes law in action.

CiaranMT

CiaranMT wrote: »

I think KM was taking the michael a wee bit when he posted that.

I was. BB is probably going to suggest both scenarios.

CiaranMT

King Mob wrote: »

I was. BB is probably going to suggest both scenarios.

With equal conviction.

CiaranMT

CiaranMT wrote: »

With equal conviction.

Oh you'd be surprise how silly and offensive these anti-semetic conspiracy theories can get.
One of my faves was when one guy was trying to justify the rocket attacks by saying it was really the Isreali's fault for putting their families in the way of the Gazan rockets.

Zillah

Very disappointed by the lack of reactionary, over-the-top response

Sefirah

Zillah wrote: »

Very disappointed by the lack of reactionary, over-the-top response

Lol- this is the Atheism & Agnosticism board -- it's pretty hard to offend, and we get nuts preaching some pretty bizarre sh!t on a fairly regular basis

Zillah

Sefirah wrote: »

Lol- this is the Atheism & Agnosticism board -- it's pretty hard to offend, and we get nuts preaching some pretty bizarre sh!t on a fairly regular basis

Really, you guys here in A&A get that sort of thing a lot?

reddivil

Zillah wrote: »

No. The only reason any of this is a problem is because the "Palestinians" insist on squatting on land that is, by rights, the inheritane of the Jewish people.

i think you'll find they were living on that land, not squatting...

any civilized human would find a way to live peacefully with his fellow man..
not break international laws to expel them from there homes, uprooting children and families. implanting Jews in there place... disgust is all the Jews should feel..
and if you don't see that you are truely blind and ignorant

AhSureTisGrand

reddivil wrote: »

i think you'll find they were living on that land, not squatting...

I think you'll find squatting on land tends to involve living on it