The Frontline : Teachers

dambarude

Is anybody else watching/ going to watch back?

So far it's been reasonably reasonable ... Have to agree with opinions on the teaching of Maths.

pooch90

Agree with a lot of the maths things but Jesus PK hasn't a notion!
The kids they have there don't have a clue what they're talking about, obviously listening to all the teacher bashing BS being spouted at home.

PKen

One thing that always gets me. What other profession gets two weeks off at Easter and spends it bitching about their employers.

Brussels Sprout

PK obviously doesn't like teachers-loved seeing him talk down to the union stooges.

PKen

Eddie Molloy is over on Vincent Browne now. He's making some excellent points.

UnLuckyAgain

PKen wrote: »

One thing that always gets me. What other profession gets two weeks off at Easter and spends it bitching about their employers.

Sorry but i'm sure the teaching profession has no control over RTE broadcasting schedules.

Feeded

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

PK obviously doesn't like teachers-loved seeing him talk down to the union stooges.

Pat Kenny hasn't a damn clue about the profession. . The panel was simply brutal and the teaching council was appropriately represented by the frozen turkey in the blue dress perched in the front seat. . .oh and before i go, here's something i want to get off my chest- Why do angry mothers, who are afraid to take responsibility for their delinquent children love to come into schools to throw their weight around. . and it's generally mothers!

UnLuckyAgain

PK's input and responses were shockingly hollow and nonchalant, seemed like he couldn't care less about appearing on the programme.

I was also very disappointed at Aine Lawlor's input - regurgitating the Teaching Council's statement of purpose doesn't resolve any of the issues raised. As she said, the TC does regulate ENTRY into the profession, but what then? Had hoped she would have gone into more detail about the future of the TC.

PKen

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

Sorry but i'm sure the teaching profession has no control over RTE broadcasting schedules.

First off all, RTE deliberately decided to air this debate at this time. Everyone knows they get two weeks off at Easter. And secondly, It's a fact that all the Teacher's Conferences are on about this time and what do they spend that time doing?

pooch90

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

PK's input and responses were shockingly hollow and nonchalant, seemed like he couldn't care less about appearing on the programme.

I was also very disappointed at Aine Lawlor's input - regurgitating the Teaching Council's statement of purpose doesn't resolve any of the issues raised. As she said, the TC does regulate ENTRY into the profession, but what then? Had hoped she would have gone into more detail about the future of the TC.

I actually text in asking that they put to Aine Lawlor how a "regulatory body" who is committed to "maintaining standards in teaching" can allow unqualified people to be on the register. Of course it wasn't asked. €90 a year so a principal's niece can get a job I would have been perfect for

UnLuckyAgain

pooch90 wrote: »

I actually text in asking that they put to Aine Lawlor how a "regulatory body" who is committed to "maintaining standards in teaching" can allow unqualified people to be on the register. Of course it wasn't asked. €90 a year so a principal's niece can get a job I would have been perfect for

Fair enough, her hands are essentially tied when it comes to part 5 (I think it was) of the Teaching Council Act giving them powers with regards to probation and inspection etc, seeing as the previous government never signed off on it. Another wonderful legacy of the magical Mary Coughlan. :rolleyes:

That said, Aine's stoic presence doesn't instill much confidence in the so-called 'regulators' of the profession.

pooch90

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

Fair enough, her hands are essentially tied when it comes to part 5 (I think it was) of the Teaching Council Act giving them powers with regards to probation and inspection etc, seeing as the previous government never signed off on it. Another wonderful legacy of the magical Mary Coughlan. :rolleyes:

That said, Aine's stoic presence doesn't instill much confidence in the so-called 'regulators' of the profession.

She looked like a deer in the headlights once challenged, then just kept her gob shut. Truly terrible!

UnLuckyAgain

Praise to the blonde lady in the leather jacket. Seemed to be the only one highlighting the real flaws in the system.

PKen

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

Praise to the blonde lady in the leather jacket. Seemed to be the only one highlighting the real flaws in the system.

Let me guess, you're a teacher? You believe there's "flaws in the system"? So I take it, you agree that "Bad" teachers should be sacked.

rebel10

PKen wrote: »

Let me guess, you're a teacher? You believe there's "flaws in the system"? So I take it, you agree that "Bad" teachers should be sacked.

What do you suggest she/he should agree with?

E.T.

That was hardly a "debate". Can't believe our licence fee goes to pay for a shambles like that - out of date facts and figure, and the presenter aggressively cutting people off. No mention of SNA cuts, Resource cuts, RTT cuts, etc etc etc.

UnLuckyAgain

PKen wrote: »

Let me guess, you're a teacher? You believe there's "flaws in the system"? So I take it, you agree that "Bad" teachers should be sacked.

Actually i'm a teacher-to-be. And no, I don't agree that 'bad' teachers should be sacked no questions asked. Rather I think that when the TC are legally authorised in issues of probation, inspection and professional conduct, that teachers' registration fees be put to use in helping 'bad' teachers get the guidance, supervision or supplementary training that they need to become 'good teachers'.

PKen

rebel10 wrote: »

What do you suggest she/he should agree with?

You sound a bit like the ASTI guy in the front row, who spoke about money. Pat rightly challenged him and said "Pay attention in class and please comprehend the facts".
It's a simple question - should a bad teacher be sacked? It amazes me, the way Teachers can't answer this plain question. Also, nobody could give figures on how many had been.

E.T.

I'm a teacher and I strongly believe bad teachers should be sacked. Pat was completely out of line seeing as what he quoted were figures that are not current "facts". It was pure laziness not to come up with new figures for the programme.

UnLuckyAgain

PKen wrote: »

You sound a bit like the ASTI guy in the front row, who spoke about money. Pat rightly challenged him and said "Pay attention in class and please comprehend the facts".
It's a simple question - should a bad teacher be sacked? It amazes me, the way Teachers can't answer this plain question. Also, nobody could give figures on how many had been.

I just gave you a potential solution. Also, I'd love to know what you would classify as 'bad' teaching? Not churning out 30 A1 students out of a class of 30 like some factory?

That seems to be the imperative issue.

E.T.

Good point. As a teacher, I'd classify a bad teacher as one who bullies pupils and/or doesn't do their work. And as a teacher I realise how hard it is to prove this unfortunately. It's the very small few (as in every profession) who give the rest of us a bad name.

rebel10

PKen wrote: »

You sound a bit like the ASTI guy in the front row, who spoke about money. Pat rightly challenged him and said "Pay attention in class and please comprehend the facts".
It's a simple question - should a bad teacher be sacked? It amazes me, the way Teachers can't answer this plain question. Also, nobody could give figures on how many had been.

Ok, well I'm a young teacher. I don't have a clue whether or not I will have a job next year. I work in a small school with 33 other teachers. One of these teachers, imo, is hanging on in the job until retirement and doing very little for her subject or her students. The principal has done all he can. Am I resentful that this slacker will have a job next year while so many of us won't? Of course. Yes I would like to see her get sacked, but what can I do? Contact Aine Lawlor?

PKen

E.T. wrote: »

I'm a teacher and I strongly believe bad teachers should be sacked. Pat was completely out of line seeing as what he quoted were figures that are not current "facts". It was pure laziness not to come up with new figures for the programme.

You too weren't "Paying attention in class". Pat opened by quoting 2007 figures and then went on to give current (POST cuts) levels of NET pay. These still showed favourably with Germany. Ironically, the country that's paying their wages!

UnLuckyAgain

E.T. wrote: »

Good point. As a teacher, I'd classify a bad teacher as one who bullies pupils and/or doesn't do their work. And as a teacher I realise how hard it is to prove this unfortunately. It's the very small few (as in every profession) who give the rest of us a bad name.

I agree, bullying pupils certainly marks a bad teacher and a bad person. Though I think that it is another ballgame entirely when it comes to regulation, inspection and sanctioning.

A teacher whose class returns with 30 Ds or Es or Fs definitely flags something suspicious in my eyes. At the same time, so would a class of all A1s.

Feeded

E.T. wrote: »

Good point. As a teacher, I'd classify a bad teacher as one who bullies pupils and/or doesn't do their work. And as a teacher I realise how hard it is to prove this unfortunately. It's the very small few (as in every profession) who give the rest of us a bad name.

i totally agree. . The definition of a ''bad teacher'' shouldn't be confined to the set of leaving cert results that the kids get. . .a bad teacher is one who arrives late to school but leaves once the last bell rings, talks AT the students and shows little respect, ridicules rather than encourages and all of this can be done even before they step foot into a classroom. . .get these people out because i'm sure we all know at least one of 'em.

UnLuckyAgain

I think most people would be able to tell the difference between a teacher who is there for the love of teaching, and one who is there simply to pay the bills.

Maybe the only upshot of the recent pay cuts to teachers is that it will weed out those who pursue teaching purely for financial reasons?

jonsnow

E.T. wrote: »

I'm a teacher and I strongly believe bad teachers should be sacked. Pat was completely out of line seeing as what he quoted were figures that are not current "facts". It was pure laziness not to come up with new figures for the programme.

The last major study looking at teachers salaries was done by ronan lyons in 2007.It obviously requires a lot of work by someone (in that case lyons) to come up with comprehensive figures they can stand behind and its obviously not something that is going to be done every year.Frontline used the most recent data they had which compared oecd/eu data and they adjusted the wages downward by 15 % to take account of the paycuts etc.

What "I learned" from the program

1.Irish teachers whose performance has been terrible in the last year make considerably more than teachers in expensive nordic countries with the best education systems in the world.

2.Project maths looks like another dumbing down of our useless maths curriculum

3.Brian Mooney thinks that repeating the same hand gesture make him look authoritative

4. Nobody knows how many teachers get sacked every year for incompetence.

5.It takes a high court order to fire a teacher

6.Every young teacher now has to work in a fastfood restaurant in order to make ends meet.

7.Teachers talk to adults who disagree with them the same way they talk to children who disagree with them.

8.Teachers have promised to teach for another 1.7 million hours a year.

9.Teachers with guaranteed generous wages, pensions and holidays have low morale.

10. I couldn't think of 10 points

Feeded

jonsnow wrote: »

The last major study looking at teachers salaries was done by ronan lyons in 2007.It obviously requires a lot of work by someone (in that case lyons) to come up with comprehensive figures they can stand behind and its obviously not something that is going to be done every year.Frontline used the most recent data they had which compared oecd/eu data and they adjusted the wages downward by 15 % to take account of the paycuts etc.

What "I learned" from the program

1.Irish teachers whose performance has been terrible in the last year make considerably more than teachers in expensive nordic countries with the best education systems in the world.

2.Project maths looks like another dumbing down of our useless maths curriculum

3.Brian Mooney thinks that repeating the same hand gesture make him look authoritative

4. Nobody knows how many teachers get sacked every year for incompetence.

5.It takes a high court order to fire a teacher

6.Every young teacher now has to work in a fastfood restaurant in order to make ends meet.

7.Teachers talk to adults who disagree with them the same way they talk to children who disagree with them.

8.Teachers have promised to teach for another 1.7 million hours a year.

9.Teachers with guaranteed generous wages, pensions and holidays have low morale.

10. I couldn't think of 10 points

Thanks Pat.

E.T.

jonsnow wrote: »

The last major study looking at teachers salaries was done by ronan lyons in 2007.It obviously requires a lot of work by someone (in that case lyons) to come up with comprehensive figures they can stand behind and its obviously not something that is going to be done every year.Frontline used the most recent data they had which compared oecd/eu data and they adjusted the wages downward by 15 % to take account of the paycuts etc.

Ronan Lyons' study has been picked apart many many times over the last few years. If you google you'll see how many of his points are incorrect - backed up with facts by other posters. It was pure and utter laziness to use 4 year old figures - it was done solely to get the idea of "overpaid teachers" first and foremost, and any correction afterwards wasn't going to make a difference.

It's just another example of laziness and jumping on the bandwagon to quote this study without making reference to any of the critiques of it. The same as journalists using the PISA study as gospel, without bothering to have read the caveats that accompany it.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:u5i9G_lZO7YJ:www.oecd.org/dataoecd/19/13/46971917.pdf+OECD+ireland+level+of+illiteracy&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESht7CSAoEH6FlJEVKBIqrLqcfGSKQug_KKCt1MehvJ5VhisoDtkzDrBHapo0HEZ5Chv6SCHPm0qK6XkMZ9px3ErLChNxU6Pofl8g25B2z0OFeN6rX6X5DvE4bO5keg0WpDJJ9-X&sig=AHIEtbRP94pxkJiYQFMWNciL76Kja6JVkg

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/

One argument against:
http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2009/04/ronan-lyon-has-written-an-instructive-post-on-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay-so-useful-in-fact-that-it-was-hig.html#more

Morgans

On the one bad apple argument regarding poor teachers.

Isn't it the stain on the profession that nothing has been done about the weeding out of these poor teachers in the past 20 years that Ive been listening to current affairs programs.

Hasnt the attitude always been to carry these passengers. The professions unions do not want to solve this problem. They seem more interested in stifling the good workers to ensure no poor teachers can be sacked for incompetence.

Why wouldnt the union heads not give the number of teachers sacked - due to incompetence? 500 was thrown out as a number. If it was 1/10th of that number I would be surprised.

Can any teacher looking in to this thread relate a story where a colleage has been sacked due to incompetence?

Brussels Sprout

I keep hearing about a 'hand full' of teachers giving the rest a bad name. I'd imagine that in reality it's a lot more than just a hand full. From my own experience, I went to a well respected school (where for example we would have had two full classes of honour's maths students in leaving cert).
During my six years there I had maybe 6 excellent teachers, 15 middle of the road teachers and 4 (off the top of my head) who shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near a school building. Talking to my sisters and friends who went to other schools I hear the same kind of figures. I also checked out the ratemyteacher website and it seems the same bad apples who were there 11 years ago and still polluting my old school.

Writing the issue off as a 'hand full' is basically lazy and isn't addressing the issue properly.

sjms

PKen wrote: »

You too weren't "Paying attention in class". Pat opened by quoting 2007 figures and then went on to give current (POST cuts) levels of NET pay. These still showed favourably with Germany. Ironically, the country that's paying their wages!

And did he show the figures for NEW ENTRANTS into the teaching profession? Was anything mentioned about the TWO TIERED pay-scale that will be in effect. The fact that young teachers have spent 4/5 years at university to have NO JOB SECURITY and work for a lot less than older teachers is sickening. Why should I (or any new entrant/those not in a permanent position) take the slack for some Joe Soap? I think the cut should have been made fair across the WHOLE teaching profession. I wish he showed the figures for teachers on RPT hours (which a lot are on) and the NUMBER OF UNEMPLOYED TEACHERS! Sickening.

jonseyblub

Morgans wrote: »

Can any teacher looking in to this thread relate a story where a colleage has been sacked due to incompetence?

No I can't and as a teacher myself I'm totally for getting rid of some of the so called bad teachers but not at the drop of a hat. I've taught in 2 schools on a long term basis and many others on short term contracts over the last 15 or so years. I can honestly say that 99% of the teachers I've taught with have been and are excellent teachers who give 100% to their students every day.
So what about the 1%? Well again I can honestly say that 5-10 % of them are the lazy, unprepared bad teachers that are constantly being referred to by Pat and his ilk and I have no problem giving them 6 months to improve or get out, but there are a myriad of reasons why the vast majority of the rest of the so called 'bad' teachers are the way they are and I would be very hesitant in sacking them straight off without giving them the help and support they deserve. I'm talking about teachers (and I've a couple in my head as I type this) who for 30-35 years of their lives taught with distinction, took teams, did extra classes for kids having problems, gave up their own time on various occasions for some school activity which benefited the students etc but are genuinely burnt out. I know most people in the private sector will say ' that's their problem ship them out etc' but I really think that is so unfair. They need support mechanisms put in place to help them. Most of these people are not bad teachers by choice but by circumstance.
Teaching can be an extremely stressful job and has got so much harder over the last 10-15 years but in most cases teachers who are having these problems receive very little support from the department until it is maybe too late.

PKen

sjms wrote: »

And did he show the figures for NEW ENTRANTS into the teaching profession? Was anything mentioned about the TWO TIERED pay-scale that will be in effect. The fact that young teachers have spent 4/5 years at university to have NO JOB SECURITY and work for a lot less than older teachers is sickening. Why should I (or any new entrant/those not in a permanent position) take the slack for some Joe Soap? I think the cut should have been made fair across the WHOLE teaching profession. I wish he showed the figures for teachers on RPT hours (which a lot are on) and the NUMBER OF UNEMPLOYED TEACHERS! Sickening.

Is this not a major failing of the Unions? Don't blame the government or the taxpayer. Why aren't INTO, ASTI and TUI under more fire from the "Lower" paid within the profession?
By the way, a two tiered system exists in the Private Sector too. The big difference is that in your (Public) sector, reward is based on Service rather than on Talent. This is also the case in the Semi-States.
Isn't it crazy that a Cleaner in the DAA (terminal 1) who has worked there all their life is on e30 an hour? A trainee Pilot will initially earn less!!!

Morgans

I think that post was very reasonable and I dont think there are two many people who would disagree with it.

However, this reasonable attitude isnt what comes across from the professions unions.

Again, last night, many reasonable points were made by the "rank and file" hard working apparently honest members, with the unions heads getting hot under the collar. The fact that Pat Keane was so happy to say that he had members on the Teaching Council straight after a discussion on why it was taking so long to sign off on the accountability of teachers shocked me.

I dont understand why the teachers themselves dont wrest control over the unions and actually force them to speak for them as a profession, not just for the lowest common denominator. Surely the supposed teacher-bashing is partly the fault of the teachers themselves for allowing their profession to be led in the way they are. Of course, teaching isnt the only profession suffering from this.

jonseyblub

PKen wrote: »

The big difference is that in your (Public) sector, reward is based on Service rather than on Talent.

Again I agree with this in principle, but what makes one teacher more talented than another and how are we going to measure it? Anyone who is serious about this will agree that results cannot be taken into account due to the diverse students in front of different teachers. Qualifications? There is already a certain amount of reward for this.
I reckon it would just open up a whole new set of problems and lead to serious amount of morale problems within staff rooms.

jonseyblub

sjms wrote: »

And did he show the figures for NEW ENTRANTS into the teaching profession? Was anything mentioned about the TWO TIERED pay-scale that will be in effect. The fact that young teachers have spent 4/5 years at university to have NO JOB SECURITY and work for a lot less than older teachers is sickening. Why should I (or any new entrant/those not in a permanent position) take the slack for some Joe Soap? I think the cut should have been made fair across the WHOLE teaching profession. I wish he showed the figures for teachers on RPT hours (which a lot are on) and the NUMBER OF UNEMPLOYED TEACHERS! Sickening.

I have to admit this is a seriously crazy situation throughout the whole public service where there is a two tier system for new and old entrants into the system and it should be priority number one for ALL public service unions to get this decision reversed. And you are also right in stating the dreadful uncertainty that approx 1/4 of all teachers face every year not knowing whether or not they have a job from year to year.

I don't understand the idea that you will be taking the slack for Joe soap though. I certainly won't be expecting you or any new entrant into my school to do any of the work I've always done and I think the majority of teachers feel the same way.

detective

I'm a Garda and thought the teachers were portrayed very badly in another one sided anti-public servant programme made by rte. I doubt very much that teachers take home E50,000k a year.

no_bother

I think a big problem with the perception often is that the unions across all sectors public / private seem to cater for the worst members within the unions not the majority who have no difficulty performing their jobs to an adequate standard and definitely do not represent those doing their jobs to an excellent standard.

spurious

Thread locked. We will not have teacher bashing on this forum.

Toto Wolfcastle

Right, I'm opening this thread again as there is an interesting discussion going on.

Before you post in this thread please read the charter, paying particular attention to this part:

Fair comment and constructive criticism about teachers and lecturers is permitted in this forum. However posts with general sweeping statements criticising all teachers or lecturers, or those naming and abusing particular individuals may result in the poster being banned from the forum.

If you cannot post without breaking the charter then don't bother. If you choose to post anyway and break the charter, then expect an infraction or a ban.

jonseyblub

PKen wrote: »

Perhaps not, but I'd say you do!!! According to reports, you guys can't pay your bills. Don't make me laugh. When will Gardai, Teachers and Nurses wake up. EUROPE IS PAYING YOUR WAGES. :mad:

And whose fault is that? Any intelligent debate on any public servant's pay always comes down to the same thing. "we are paying your wages' 'where is the money coming from? etc etc etc. You either want public services or you don't. If you do you have to pay for them whether the money comes from the Central bank or the IMF.

It always amazes me when I hear generalizations like 'we need to cut the public service by X' ' 'we need to get rid of X number of Teachers, Gardai etc' and not once is there any feeling of sympathy for the people who are losing their jobs unlike the feeling of sorrow when 100 jobs go somewhere in the private sector. (Dont get me wrong we should be feeling sorry for the people who lose their jobs in the private sector)

As well as that people are comparing our pay with other countries in the EU and demanding that we take 10-20% more off our salary without taking into consideration the cost of our mortgages, general cost of living etc. Again we hear of people falling behind on their mortgage repayments and naturally feel sorry for them but then on the other hand you are asking the government to put more people into the same situation by reducing their pay.

I just wish we could have an intelligent debate that didn't fall into the normal public vs private slagging match but when you have a person like Pat Kenny presenting what is really the only open forum for public debate it's never going to happen.

sjms

jonseyblub wrote: »

I don't understand the idea that you will be taking the slack for Joe soap though. I certainly won't be expecting you or any new entrant into my school to do any of the work I've always done and I think the majority of teachers feel the same way.

Sorry, I re-read my statement there and it sounded wrong. Not how I wanted it to come across! I just meant surely everyone should take the same paycut, not just new entrants. It's so funny that unions and government bodies can alter someones career in such a way before they even enter the profession?

Why aren't INTO, ASTI and TUI under more fire from the "Lower" paid within the profession?

Why? Because we are not members of these unions and are not even in the profession yet!:)

Morgans

I try not to teacher bash. And I enjoyed this thread, but I think Pat Kenny gave short enough shrift to those who deserved it last night - the representatives of the teacher unions.

Seemingly the vast majority of teachers would like to see poor teachers given the opportunity to improve and those who are unsuitable leave the profession. Fine. This is however not the attitude of the teachers unions, which I think is fair are there to fight against any encroachment on the current position.

Pat Kenny was dead right to cut the Union rep short when he tried to evade addressing the figures that were presented before him. And he was dead right to press on the fact why were Unions so secretive of the numbers that have been "sacked" due to incompetence. Union leaders at well versed at ignoring the inconvenient facts and answer direct questions with unrelated information that suits their needs. Hardly a healty situation.

We are all in favour of transparency and openness as long as it doesnt reveal something damaging apparently. That isnt teacher bashing, its the culture that teacher unions that needs to change. Blaming Pat Kenny on asking direct questions isnt the answer. On the PTA meetings, one person compared attending on for a teacher like a surgeon asking for a consult after a day in theatre.

Get union heads to reflect your thoughts and dont be so compliant in allowing them to speak for you. If the true voice of the teaching population was heard, I think you'd find that the vast vast majority of the population would be happy to pay for SNAs, better buildings etc. And you wouldnt feel nearly the same level of rancour, peceived or actual, against you.

vallo

I wonder will the unions charge 10% less for membership to the new entrants, as they have represented them 10% less well? I am not a new entrant, but I think it is outrageous that they have allowed this schism to open up amongst teachers. Surely the word union implies unity?

Anyway, whether it is public or private sector, it is highly demoralising to work beside colleagues who don't pull their weight. Teaching is no different there (and I'd agree with an earlier poster who said that the figure is way more than 1%, more like 1 in 15 in my current school). Not only do they get away with getting paid for not doing anything, but they help perpetuate the anti-teacher sentiment which is rife in this country.

However, there is one big difference in the school situation compared to a private sector company. Instead of having a professional manager backed up by qualified HR staff who can assist with verbal warnings, written warnings and terminations, we have ex-teacher principals, many of whom seem to have no people-management skills. Look at that case of the principal hiring a private investigator for example. Why do we assume that 30 years teaching history is a good qualification for running a school?

jonseyblub

Morgans wrote: »

I try not to teacher bash. And I enjoyed this thread, but I think Pat Kenny gave short enough shrift to those who deserved it last night - the representatives of the teacher unions.

Seemingly the vast majority of teachers would like to see poor teachers given the opportunity to improve and those who are unsuitable leave the profession. Fine. This is however not the attitude of the teachers unions, which I think is fair are there to fight against any encroachment on the current position.

Pat Kenny was dead right to cut the Union rep short when he tried to evade addressing the figures that were presented before him. And he was dead right to press on the fact why were Unions so secretive of the numbers that have been "sacked" due to incompetence. Union leaders at well versed at ignoring the inconvenient facts and answer direct questions with unrelated information that suits their needs. Hardly a healty situation.

We are all in favour of transparency and openness as long as it doesnt reveal something damaging apparently. That isnt teacher bashing, its the culture that teacher unions that needs to change. Blaming Pat Kenny on asking direct questions isnt the answer. On the PTA meetings, one person compared attending on for a teacher like a surgeon asking for a consult after a day in theatre.

Get union heads to reflect your thoughts and dont be so compliant in allowing them to speak for you. If the true voice of the teaching population was heard, I think you'd find that the vast vast majority of the population would be happy to pay for SNAs, better buildings etc. And you wouldnt feel nearly the same level of rancour, peceived or actual, against you.

I agree with most of what you say but:

1. The role of any union (Public or private) is to defend the rights of its members so I have no problem in them defending anybody who asks for it (good or bad)

2. Pat did not just cut off the union representatives, he seemed (in my opinion) to cut off any argument that he did not agree with. For example he gave that person from the grind school ample time to slag off teachers and the new project Maths course but when the next person who gave a reason (with evidence) why grammer is not taught in secondary schools the same way as years ago he was told quite abruptly that thats a discussion for another day!!
Another example was when the Labour TD was trying to explain that the extra 33 hours given for meetings after school etc would actually increase teaching time. He couldn't comprehend it so he didn't entertain it and tried then to get McDowell to back him up.

3. I actually think that the point the person made about the PTA was a good one. If I've been on my feet all day and had a couple of challenging classes, whether you want to believe or not I will be wrecked. If then in the next 2 hours I have to talk to up to 60 sets of parents It is impossible to complete the task properly so the suggestion that set times are given to parents as part of the 33 extra hours made total sense to me.

jonseyblub

vallo wrote: »

Anyway, whether it is public or private sector, it is highly demoralising to work beside colleagues who don't pull their weight. Teaching is no different there (and I'd agree with an earlier poster who said that the figure is way more than 1%, more like 1 in 15 in my current school). Not only do they get away with getting paid for not doing anything, but they help perpetuate the anti-teacher sentiment which is rife in this country.

On reflection probably should have said about 5%. 1% would probably represent 1/2 a teacher but again honestly only about 1 in every staffroom I"VE been in.

floating voter

There is a very simple reason why unions protect all members even the very bad ones.

1. Teaching is very diverse, we do not make widgets, it is hard to define what is a good teacher and what is a bad teacher. This is a fact. One persons bd teacher may be another persons favourite.
2. The vast majority of teachers 95% plus have no intrest in keeping poor teachers in the job. If anything poor teachers make it harder for everyone else.
3. So why the reluctance to change?? Fear. Most average teachers fear that they will be next and dread the tyranny of form filling and box ticking which seems to define teaching in England. There is in my experience an attitude of stick together or hang alone.
4. So what is to be done? There needs to be proper easily measureable standards. Failure to stick to basic standards over a number of years (2) should lead to dismissal.
5. Basic standards in my opinion would involve yearly and termly plans/ schemes of work prepared for all classes and handed up to principal. Evidence of assessment and differentiated practice for different abilities should also be provided. I loathe the idea of paperwork but am sick of teachers in my school starting on page one and working to the end of the year with the head down

Morgans

jonseyblub wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say but:

1. The role of any union (Public or private) is to defend the rights of its members so I have no problem in them defending anybody who asks for it (good or bad)

2. Pat did not just cut off the union representatives, he seemed (in my opinion) to cut off any argument that he did not agree with. For example he gave that person from the grind school ample time to slag off teachers and the new project Maths course but when the next person who gave a reason (with evidence) why grammer is not taught in secondary schools the same way as years ago he was told quite abruptly that thats a discussion for another day!!
Another example was when the Labour TD was trying to explain that the extra 33 hours given for meetings after school etc would actually increase teaching time. He couldn't comprehend it so he didn't entertain it and tried then to get McDowell to back him up.

3. I actually think that the point the person made about the PTA was a good one. If I've been on my feet all day and had a couple of challenging classes, whether you want to believe or not I will be wrecked. If then in the next 2 hours I have to talk to up to 60 sets of parents It is impossible to complete the task properly so the suggestion that set times are given to parents as part of the 33 extra hours made total sense to me.

Agree again with most of this. However, by paying your union fee to a group that is characteristed as protecting the less deserving of its members then you are unfortunately going to be tarred with the same brush. And deservedly so. You are part of the problem. Wouldnt being part of a more progressive union suit better?

I missed part of the first section (brushing teeth) but heard him cut off a teacher going on about the Zone of Proximal Development and Vygotsky. I think he was dead right to do so. But I wont argue on the grammar one, as i missed it.

And I agree that a teachers day can be a tough one, but there are ways and means of getting the point accross. I dont think comparing it to a life and death situation is analagous. Also, it doesnt take into account Pat's very relevant point of the parent's work day being equally as tough as the teachers and having both parents take time off to attend a PT meeting isnt efficient. A teachers day can be a tough one, but it doesnt mean that its easier than a parent.

McDowell asked a straight question to Keane on whether this PT change was part of the extra hour to which Keane said he would answer, before going on about 1.7m hours a year and point blank refusing to answer the question.

If direct answers were provided for direct questions, the response that teachers receive to proper requests would be far more respectful. As it stands, teacher unions requesting change are always sounding as the boy-crying-wolf. Its not a healthy sitation for society, but they seem to have teachers support in what they do.

jonseyblub

Morgans wrote: »

Agree again with most of this. However, by paying your union fee to a group that is characteristed as protecting the less deserving of its members then you are unfortunately going to be tarred with the same brush. And deservedly so. You are part of the problem. Wouldnt being part of a more progressive union suit better?

I missed part of the first section (brushing teeth) but heard him cut off a teacher going on about the Zone of Proximal Development and Vygotsky. I think he was dead right to do so. But I wont argue on the grammar one, as i missed it.

And I agree that a teachers day can be a tough one, but there are ways and means of getting the point accross. I dont think comparing it to a life and death situation is analagous. Also, it doesnt take into account Pat's very relevant point of the parent's work day being equally as tough as the teachers and having both parents take time off to attend a PT meeting isnt efficient. A teachers day can be a tough one, but it doesnt mean that its easier than a parent.

McDowell asked a straight question to Keane on whether this PT change was part of the extra hour to which Keane said he would answer, before going on about 1.7m hours a year and point blank refusing to answer the question.

If direct answers were provided for direct questions, the response that teachers receive to proper requests would be far more respectful. As it stands, teacher unions requesting change are always sounding as the boy-crying-wolf. Its not a healthy sitation for society, but they seem to have teachers support in what they do.

Yeah I have to say Pat King was useless in getting his point across. I suppose you are right in terms of using the doctor analogy as well, but the point I made about having a conversation with 60 sets of parents holds as well. It's just not productive.
Just to clarify what Pat King didn't do: Up until now three PT Meetings took place outside of school hours and I think two staff meetings also had to take place outside too. This stays the same and is not included in the new 33 hours. So the 4th PT meeting can be counted in the 33 hours.
On the point of going into another union, there is no other one apart from TUI and INTO who are basically made up of the same type of people.

jonseyblub

floating voter wrote: »

There is a very simple reason why unions protect all members even the very bad ones.

1. Teaching is very diverse, we do not make widgets, it is hard to define what is a good teacher and what is a bad teacher. This is a fact. One persons bd teacher may be another persons favourite.
2. The vast majority of teachers 95% plus have no intrest in keeping poor teachers in the job. If anything poor teachers make it harder for everyone else.
3. So why the reluctance to change?? Fear. Most average teachers fear that they will be next and dread the tyranny of form filling and box ticking which seems to define teaching in England. There is in my experience an attitude of stick together or hang alone.
4. So what is to be done? There needs to be proper easily measureable standards. Failure to stick to basic standards over a number of years (2) should lead to dismissal.
5. Basic standards in my opinion would involve yearly and termly plans/ schemes of work prepared for all classes and handed up to principal. Evidence of assessment and differentiated practice for different abilities should also be provided. I loathe the idea of paperwork but am sick of teachers in my school starting on page one and working to the end of the year with the head down

Agree with all of this, especially the last point.