Sinn Fein proposing a United Ireland referendum...

hatrickpatrick

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-13117696

Ok, now before anyone labels me or says anything, I am not an ardent hater of SF (I don't like them at all, but I don't utterly detest them like so many. I would vote for them before FF, given the choice.)

Secondly, I do want a United Ireland, I want it just as much as any nationalist. I dearly hope to see such a thing in my lifetime.

HOWEVER.

Are they insane? Could you possible say "bad timing" any louder? Who the HELL would vote to become part of this state at this moment in time, when we're hovering on the brink of bankruptcy and saddled with debts which are going to hamper any chances of prosperity for the next few years?

What the hell are SF thinking? They could even wait 2 or 3 years before proposing this and the country will probably be in a much better condition than it is now, but today, it reads like "Hey, our ship is looking very likely to sink within the next couple of years, want to leave your ship which is relatively stable and try your luck on ours?!"

Who's ridiculous idea was this manifesto and how soon will they be fired by SF?

dsmythy

Extra bad timing since it's pretty much guaranteed to fail and it will be a long time before another is possible.

Iwasfrozen

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-13117696

Ok, now before anyone labels me or says anything, I am not an ardent hater of SF (I don't like them at all, but I don't utterly detest them like so many. I would vote for them before FF, given the choice.)

Secondly, I do want a United Ireland, I want it just as much as any nationalist. I dearly hope to see such a thing in my lifetime.

HOWEVER.

Are they insane? Could you possible say "bad timing" any louder? Who the HELL would vote to become part of this state at this moment in time, when we're hovering on the brink of bankruptcy and saddled with debts which are going to hamper any chances of prosperity for the next few years?

What the hell are SF thinking? They could even wait 2 or 3 years before proposing this and the country will probably be in a much better condition than it is now, but today, it reads like "Hey, our ship is looking very likely to sink within the next couple of years, want to leave your ship which is relatively stable and try your luck on ours?!"

Who's ridiculous idea was this manifesto and how soon will they be fired by SF?

It could be a result of secret talks with dissident republicans.

junder

A referendum will only be called if the ni secretary believes that the majorty of people in northern ireland want a united Ireland and as things stand that's not the case

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Who the HELL would vote to become part of this state at this moment in time, when we're hovering on the brink of bankruptcy and saddled with debts which are going to hamper any chances of prosperity for the next few years?

Referendum proposed and promptly voted down. Result - SF get to spend the next decade blaming "unionist intransigence" for the failure to achieve a UI, whereas without a referendum, their voters might start wondering about the lack of progress to a UI.

Remember, were a UI ever delivered on, SF would be looking for votes on the basis of their economic policies and even they must suspect they'd face an uphill battle with those.

Joey the lips

i dont think its a bad time. If the result is good it will be in there favor. If the result is bad it will send out a message to the dissidents.

Quite cleaver if you ask me.

Also.. I think the referendum should be called now to happen in 2016. The 100 anniversary of 1916.

That gives us 4 years to recover and if we have not we are all fooked.

KeithAFC

Will never happen. So a waste of time by SF.

JustinDee

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It could be a result of secret talks with dissident republicans.

"Dissident republicans" dont' and won't have any say. They are involved in no democratic process given their ignorance of what the people on this island already voted for.

Besides, as far as the Republic of Ireland is concerned, a United Ireland is the least of its worries.

caseyann

Oh what a day that would be if it came about :cool::)

Pity English and we can't vote in that,Ireland would be united with their help :P

KeithAFC

Orange does not want a UI. Perhaps if Gerry was to focus on more important things for the normal person on the street, SF might get a bit more respect.

caseyann

JustinDee wrote: »

"Dissident republicans" dont' and won't have any say. They are involved in no democratic process given their ignorance of what the people on this island already voted for.

Besides, as far as the Republic of Ireland is concerned, a United Ireland is the least of its worries.

What would the north be worth to the republic? And how good would the whole country together be worth in economic stand point.
Probably worth more to us all together than apart.

caseyann

KeithAFC wrote: »

Orange does not want a UI. Perhaps if Gerry was to focus on more important things for the normal person on the street, SF might get a bit more respect.

Tuff with all due respect,if it gets voted that way accept and lets make it a great country all together

catbear

I think it's a splendid idea, forgo the vote and give the Queen a res in the Pheonix park and we'll have a united ireland within Britain by the time she's finished visiting the leprechaun museum!

DyldeBrill

I don't want a UI at all!

we are struggling enough as a country as it is.Drama would start all over again, and there would always be some sort of trouble over the decision if we were to become a UI.

We just don't have the money!

KeithAFC

caseyann wrote: »

Tuff with all due respect,if it gets voted that way accept and lets make it a great country all together

You forget, it can't because the majority of PUL don't want it. Thats the whole point.

Joey the lips

KeithAFC wrote: »

Orange does not want a UI. Perhaps if Gerry was to focus on more important things for the normal person on the street, SF might get a bit more respect.

You have made it quite clear you have no respect for gerry adams in the past so you cant really say you will ever respect him if he focuses on more important things.

Also if you follow politics close you will see a united ireland is actually in his constitution so he is carry out exactly what he intended to do.

Off course with absolute total respect to you its highly unlightly you will support the motion especially as you are an "ulster scott" as pointed out in your signature.

Do you not agree it would be far better to debate its possibility and the orange reasoning then to just appose it.

Just as much as debating this i have an open enough mind to debate ireland rejoining the commonwealth.

zuroph

caseyann wrote: »

What would the north be worth to the republic? And how good would the whole country together be worth in economic stand point.
Probably worth more to us all together than apart.

no, it would cost us a fortune, and be the final nail on our coffin financially.

We can't afford the north, simply can't.

caseyann

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I don't want a UI at all!

we are struggling enough as a country as it is.Drama would start all over again, and there would always be some sort of trouble over the decision if we were to become a UI.

We just don't have the money!

A United Ireland would be great for the economy and for the people.They have alot to offer us and we them.
Sure have enough money to pay out for lizzy to come etc... :rolleyes:

Augmerson

KeithAFC wrote: »

Will never happen. So a waste of time by SF.

Why not?

caseyann

zuroph wrote: »

no, it would cost us a fortune, and be the final nail on our coffin financially.

We can't afford the north, simply can't.

Wrong if you look at the what we have in combined resources and trade and it would be a boom.

zuroph

and their massive social welfare bill?

Kaka10

caseyann wrote: »

A United Ireland would be great for the economy and for the people.They have alot to offer us and we them.
Sure have enough money to pay out for lizzy to come etc... :rolleyes:

I get the distinct feeling that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. I don't even think its worth debating with someone who genuinely believes that the financial strain of an united Ireland is even comparable to the financial costs of the Queen's visit.

Ireland united would possibly be the straw that broke the camel's already extraordinarily fragile back. It is never, ever going to happen in the current economic climate and mercifully so in the opinion of anyone who has foresight beyond mindless, nationalistic drivel.

hmmm

And what happens if the Unionist community vote 100% against and the referendum is still passed? Now that the Armalite has failed will we try to bludgeon them into a UI against their will using the ballot box?

Democracy is not the tyranny of the majority.

PatsytheNazi

KeithAFC wrote: »

Will never happen. So a waste of time by SF.

Year Unionism Nationalism Margin

2003 342907 280305 62602
2007 335888 293767 42121
2011 329000? 307000? 22000 ?

The occupation of the six counties has a decade or two only left. If we can wait 8 centuries that time will fly by

KeithAFC

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Year Unionism Nationalism Margin

2003 342907 280305 62602
2007 335888 293767 42121
2011 329000? 307000? 22000?

The occupation of the six counties has a decade or two only left. If we can wait 8 centuries that time will fly by

Deary me...

Like that matters, one bit. How many Unionists voted in the last general election?

PatsytheNazi

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-13117696

Ok, now before anyone labels me or says anything, I am not an ardent hater of SF (I don't like them at all, but I don't utterly detest them like so many. I would vote for them before FF, given the choice.)

Secondly, I do want a United Ireland, I want it just as much as any nationalist. I dearly hope to see such a thing in my lifetime.

HOWEVER.

Are they insane? Could you possible say "bad timing" any louder? Who the HELL would vote to become part of this state at this moment in time, when we're hovering on the brink of bankruptcy and saddled with debts which are going to hamper any chances of prosperity for the next few years?

What the hell are SF thinking? They could even wait 2 or 3 years before proposing this and the country will probably be in a much better condition than it is now, but today, it reads like "Hey, our ship is looking very likely to sink within the next couple of years, want to leave your ship which is relatively stable and try your luck on ours?!"

Who's ridiculous idea was this manifesto and how soon will they be fired by SF?

I don't normally reply in bold, but and in fairness to the OP, the headline is misleading, SF haven't said that they want the referendum on a UI at some specific time in the next say, 6 or 12 months ??

As for the rest of their proposals, I think thier reasonable enough i.e. The party is also proposing a referendum on a new all-Ireland constitution, and wants people in Northern Ireland to be allowed to vote in Irish presidential elections. It calls for tax-varying and borrowing powers to be transferred to Stormont, and cross-border tax harmonisation.

glic71rods46t0

KeithAFC wrote: »

Deary me...

Like that matters, one bit. How many Unionists voted in the last general election?

It would be fair to say that those from the unionist tradition who didnt bother to vote are probably indifferent to a united Ireland.
Can you call someone a unionist if they dont vote for a unionist party?

PatsytheNazi

KeithAFC wrote: »

Deary me...

Like that matters, one bit. How many Unionists voted in the last general election?

Deary me, only unionism could come out with how people vote in elections does not " Like that matters, one bit. " If it was a rising unionist vote poulation and a declining nationalist one, you wouldn't be able to stop crowing. Wise up for God's sake.

2010 – ( Westminister) Unionists 50.6% Nationalists 41.9%
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/election/electsum.htm

PatsytheNazi

f3msb10eq79x8v wrote: »

It would be fair to say that those from the unionist tradition who didnt bother to vote are probably indifferent to a united Ireland.
Can you call someone a unionist if they dont vote for a unionist party?

You see in discussions like this, the unionists try to fool themselves that their is some secret community of unionists who will be spurned into life and rush out to save their precious wee Ulster.

caseyann

Kaka10 wrote: »

I get the distinct feeling that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. I don't even think its worth debating with someone who genuinely believes that the financial strain of an united Ireland is even comparable to the financial costs of the Queen's visit.

Ireland united would possibly be the straw that broke the camel's already extraordinarily fragile back. It is never, ever going to happen in the current economic climate and mercifully so in the opinion of anyone who has foresight beyond mindless, nationalistic drivel.

Nice user name goes with the post :D

KeithAFC

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Deary me, only unionism could come out with how people vote in elections does not " Like that matters, one bit. " If it was a rising unionist vote poulation and a declining nationalist one, you wouldn't be able to stop crowing. Wise up for God's sake.

2010 – ( Westminister) Unionists 50.6% Nationalists 41.9%
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/election/electsum.htm

We aren't talking about general elections though. We are talking about a vote on a UI. You would see so many more PUL coming out to vote against it. Thats the point im trying to make.

Most PUL are only interested in being in the UK.

caseyann

KeithAFC wrote: »

We aren't talking about general elections though. We are talking about a vote on a UI. You would see so many more PUL coming out to vote against it. Thats the point im trying to make.

Most PUL are only interested in being in the UK.

The thing is the UK doesnt want any of Ireland anymore so come on we love yous and want yous
Scratch eachothers back,the smart thing to do :P

newmug

KeithAFC wrote: »

Will never happen. So a waste of time by SF.

Its inevitable, we will have a UI someday. Justce will always out. Look at South Africafor instance. Sectarianism and division has no place in the future. United we will be!

KeithAFC

newmug wrote: »

Its inevitable, we will have a UI someday. Justce will always out. Look at South Africafor instance. Sectarianism and division has no place in the future. United we will be!

Never. Won't happen. Lets all pray to king Billy for that. :cool:

But in a serious context, i think SF are silly with this.

Jonah42

I'd say Britain would love to offload Northern Ireland to us, but I don't think we could afford it at the moment.

KeithAFC

Jonah42 wrote: »

I'd say Britain would love to offload Northern Ireland to us, but I don't think we could afford it at the moment.

Why do people say this? Think about it. Lose Northern Ireland and you only increase the will for Scotland and Wales to leave the Union. What happens to the British Army? The UK can't afford that.

PatsytheNazi

KeithAFC wrote: »

We aren't talking about general elections though. We are talking about a vote on a UI. You would see so many more PUL coming out to vote against it. Thats the point im trying to make.

Most PUL are only interested in being in the UK.

Just as predicted back in post #29 - " You see in discussions like this, the unionists try to fool themselves that their is some secret community of unionists who will be spurned into life and rush out to save their precious wee Ulster. "

KeithAFC

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Just as predicted back in post #29 - " You see in discussions like this, the unionists try to fool themselves that their is some secret community of unionists who will be spurned into life and rush out to save their precious wee Ulster. "

Its true though. So many don't vote. So much so that Adams wanted working class Protestants to come out and vote because it is that bad.

newmug

KeithAFC wrote: »

Never. Won't happen. Lets all pray to king Billy for that. :cool:

But in a serious context, i think SF are silly with this.

What will you do if / when it does? Gimmee an honest answer, not just a "it wont happen" answer. Hypothetically like.

Bottle_of_Smoke

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Just as predicted back in post #29 - " You see in discussions like this, the unionists try to fool themselves that their is some secret community of unionists who will be spurned into life and rush out to save their precious wee Ulster. "

There's absolutely no doubt more people would come out and vote on a border referendum. You'd have people offering lifts to elderly neighbours and the like if it looked like it was close.

If its done in the next 10 years I reckon it'l be 65% stay in union 35% reunify

Jonah42

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why do people say this? Think about it. Lose Northern Ireland and you only increase the will for Scotland and Wales to leave the Union. What happens to the British Army? The UK can't afford that.

Maybe they just don't like ye's or something.:pac:

I don't united Ireland wouldn't come as a shock to the people over in Britain, but Scotland or Wales leaving the Union would cause massive upset. Would Wales even be able to survive on its own?

Not sure what you mean about the army there, if there was a United Ireland then the BA would leave the North, saving the British taxpayer money and not having to worry about Republican terrorism.

But as I already said, I expect Northern Ireland to remain with the UK for a very long time yet.

Daema

Hilarious that the main argument against this is that the South can't afford it. Logically you all must regret the independence of the Free State then? You know, given what that did to the 'economy' of Ireland.

Anyhoo, it's definitely too early for a referendum. Wait another 20 years or so until our Catholic teenage pregnancies turn into votes and most of those 60+ y/o Protestants skewing the numbers have popped their clogs.

Ismhunter

Lets say the referendum did happen and was passed- would those Republican Sinn Fein morons vote in it? because of their abstentionist policies and the fact that it was run by a partionist goverment mean that they would have say that they couldnt abide by its result and so fight on for a return the true ireland of 1921

KeithAFC

Ismhunter wrote: »

Lets say the referendum did happen and was passed- would those Republican Sinn Fein morons vote in it? because of their abstentionist policies and the fact that it was run by a partionist goverment mean that they would have say that they couldnt abide by its result and so fight on for a return the true ireland of 1921

I don't think they would accept the will of the Protestant people in Northern Ireland.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Ismhunter wrote: »

Lets say the referendum did happen and was passed- would those Republican Sinn Fein morons vote in it? because of their abstentionist policies and the fact that it was run by a partionist goverment mean that they would have say that they couldnt abide by its result and so fight on for a return the true ireland of 1921

Have seen some people say they wouldn't stoop to having to vote to bring about their own country

Adrian009

Joey the lips wrote: »

i dont think its a bad time. If the result is good it will be in there favor. If the result is bad it will send out a message to the dissidents.

Quite cleaver if you ask me.

Also.. I think the referendum should be called now to happen in 2016. The 100 anniversary of 1916.

That gives us 4 years to recover and if we have not we are all fooked.

OFGS, would SF ever do something productive? Ireland is united; it has no territorial bits missing. NORTHERN Ireland is part of the UK. At present, there is no great will among either the Irish or Northern Irish to absorb NI into Ireland.

paky

i think its a good idea. a mate of mine is from a unionist background and he voted sinn fein in the last election. its a sign of changing times and there are lots of people from unionist backgrounds, moreso the youth, who would vote in favour of it, imho

KeithAFC

paky wrote: »

i think its a good idea. a mate of mine is from a unionist background and he voted sinn fein in the last election. its a sign of changing times and there are lots of people from unionist backgrounds, moreso the youth, who would vote in favour of it, imho

No. Just would not happen.

paky

KeithAFC wrote: »

No. Just would not happen.

its bound to happen

Adrian009

paky wrote: »

i think its a good idea. a mate of mine is from a unionist background and he voted sinn fein in the last election. its a sign of changing times and there are lots of people from unionist backgrounds, moreso the youth, who would vote in favour of it, imho

Oh great, more voters for SF (Fianna Fail Nua). I can never understand why people think a party that still supports serial killers and mass murder can be considered 'progressive.'

paky

Adrian009 wrote: »

Oh great, more voters for SF (Fianna Fail Nua). I can never understand why people think a party that still supports serial killers and mass murder can be considered 'progressive.'

i agree, but if that what it takes to secure a united ireland, then it must be done. would you rather support dissident republicans? i cant think of anyone else with the same agenda