PS being softened up for a paycut

Brussels Sprout

Mr Kenny has warned that failure by public servants to implement the Croke Park deal quickly and in full would lead to inevitable pay cuts.
On RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Mr Kenny said it was the duty of every public servant to push through the reforms agreed in the deal.

link

Last week we had Howlin, Noonan, Quinn and Rabbit all coming out with similar statements. It would appear to me that the decision has already been made (most likely by our European overlords) that there is going to be a cut in public sector wages and the government are slowly drip feeding the idea into the public domain so as to get people used to the idea and to dilute the inevitable rage of the unions.

Is it even possible for the average PS worker to improve efficiency or are the problems so endemic that it would that take massive structural reform and this is really just grandstanding from the government?

When do you think they'll announce the cut?

RichardAnd

Assumed as much myself. I'd say the cut will come in the so called "jobs budget" and it will be anounced with what will probably become a motto in Irish politics for a number of years to come;

"Europe made us do it..."

Nody

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Last week we had Howlin, Noonan, Quinn and Rabbit all coming out with similar statements. It would appear to me that the decision has already been made (most likely by our European overlords) that there is going to be a cut in public sector wages and the government are slowly drip feeding the idea into the public domain so as to get people used to the idea and to dilute the inevitable rage of the unions.

Is it even possible for the average PS worker to improve efficiency or are the problems so endemic that it would that take massive structural reform and this is really just grandstanding from the government?

When do you think they'll announce the cut?

Doubt Europe has much more to do with it beyond telling the government (previous and current) to get their budget in order.

What I can't understand is why you was expecting that no cuts would be made and no savings had to be delivered while the country has a yearly 20 Billion deficit in the budget to deal with?

The deal was clear, deliver savings or PS will face cuts (how, what and where tbd basically). Now there are no noticable savings to date so the second half of the deal (cuts) are coming! It did not help that nothing of note appears to have been done during the FF era of the deal; the new government is simply saying deliver to the deal or live with the consequences of it (which in a way is a new tone from the government I'll admitt).

To your final point, the change need to come from the higher layers but since they knew FF would not force them they appear to simply have ignored most of it. The consequence of that is that paycuts will be coming for most people again and most likely further headcount cuts (I'm sure there will be protected groups again such as judges, heads of departments etc.).

sollar

I'd say they are just trying to push croke park reforms along a little.

Flex

I think this is exactly what Fianna Fail wanted the CPA to do; they implemented an agreement where they promised not to touch PS pay until 2014 and potentially even reverse paycuts, in exchange for delivering savings via reforms. These savings were never going to materialise. Now, the new government is being forced to deal with the fact the "hundreds of millions of euros in savings" the unions kept saying reform would deliver have failed to materialise, so are making noise about potential paycuts. Come the next election Fianna Fail can claim they wouldve worked with the unions, found a way to make the CPA deliver and so on and crucify the current government over it... Id also put this down as a prime reason for the CPSU's recent motions; theyre aware that the CPA isnt going to deliver savings on the scale necessary (as the Department of Education has shown), so are pre-empting the consequences of their failure.

Having said that though, I would honestly be very surprised if any further paycuts are implemented. I just cant see the government doing so, especially with Labour in power. I think that whats happening now is just tough talking in the run up to the review of the CPA next month. Either that or the IMF/EU have said something in private to the government which has really shook them (which could be the case given the fact we're already quite far behind our deficit targets... ).

gregm1159

I hope they have the balls to do it. the public sector will never reform itself as the people in charge will do whatever they can to protect themselves, their salaries, pensions, perks, etc etc. All the rest of us can hope for is that the government will do their job and stop wasting money and get rid of management that has failed to deliver any reforms of worth.

ressem

Flex wrote: »

I think this is exactly what Fianna Fail wanted the CPA to do; they implemented an agreement where they promised not to touch PS pay until 2014 and potentially even reverse paycuts, in exchange for delivering savings via reforms. These savings were never going to materialise. Now, the new government is being forced to deal with the fact the "hundreds of millions of euros in savings" the unions kept saying reform would deliver have failed to materialise, so are making noise about potential paycuts.

Perhaps I've missed a thread about it but what internal reforms have been carried out within these departments? Can public servants mention the changes in their area? If their low-med level management can't deliver then the management should be cut.

As a sceptical outsider, the view formed is that the oldest staff are taking generous retirement packages so the pay bill goes down by 177 million and the pension bill goes up by 192 million, which helps no-one, certainly not those offices that find themselves overworked.
(source: budget 2011 estimates)

Marcusm

Only someone with cloth ears or a healthy dose of self delusion could not believe that there will be a significant PS pay cut on the horizon. while the FF government effectively cut pay through the pension levy etc, this has had little effect on the deficit or on reform. Likewise, anyone who believes that unemployment benefit will be maintained in excess of 150% of the UK level (a comparable economy in many ways, high home ownership etc) is a few years behind the current position.

I'm not saying that these are the right policies but personally I can't see them not doing it. Paycuts in many parts of the private sector have been much more savage. The only question in my mind is the extent to which there will be a graduation of the public service paycut - i.e. to what extent will the pain be proprtionately larger higher up. Only problem is that maximum savings cannot be made unless the pain is felt across the largest populations of staff.

vamos!

I get that cuts will have to be made. In some PS departments though, Im not too sure what the extra hours are about. I cant see, in teaching, for example how making everybody have an extra hour of team planning a week will save any money? It has and will continue to erode patience, goodwill and general common sense of the workers though. If the media and government continue to portray them as greedy, how will they take a cut with realtive good grace? I hope that when these cuts come in they are made fairly across the board and that its not just the contract staff with no job stability and new entrants who suffer. Ill have to see it to believe it though.

sarumite

vamos! wrote: »

I get that cuts will have to be made. In some PS departments though, Im not too sure what the extra hours are about. I cant see, in teaching, for example how making everybody have an extra hour of team planning a week will save any money? .

My father is a retired teacher. We were discussing this yesterday and he said that the school year has been eroded over time from over 200 days a year to the current 183 days. With our literacy maths rates dropping, perhaps a some extra weeks of schooling may not do our kids any harm.

Why the rush to cut PS pay again, and not a whimper of real reform?

For example, in Northern Ireland, there is one Chief Fire Officer.

We have 26. Possibly more.

Almost everything at county level is duplicated 26 times.

• Grants
• Car Tax
• Heritage / Housing / Civil Defence officers

...the list goes on.

KerranJast

salonfire wrote: »

Why the rush to cut PS pay again, and not a whimper of real reform?

Real reform takes years, years we don't have. The IMF have a gun to our head to cut the deficit. Either Croke Park delivers savings quickly or there'll have to be direct cuts in wages and numbers.
This was on the cards way back last year when the bailout was put in place so the PS have no excuse that this is a huge surprise.

Flex

salonfire wrote: »

Why the rush to cut PS pay again, and not a whimper of real reform?

For example, in Northern Ireland, there is one Chief Fire Officer.

We have 26. Possibly more.

Almost everything at county level is duplicated 26 times.

• Grants
• Car Tax
• Heritage / Housing / Civil Defence officers

...the list goes on.

This is where you would expect the CPA to really drive cost savings; stream lining/automating admin functions so that you would be able to remove unnecessary staff and get the headcount down. Thats impossible due to the CPA though. If you improve an office with 20 people in it and make it more efficient to the point you only need 15, those 5 people who are no longer required cant be removed from the pay roll, they simply sit around doing nothing until theyre transferred. Even after that though, the PS pay bill is still the same, those 5 extra people are still costing the country the same as before, only now theyre in a new office.

Its great that efficiency is improving and value for money is rising (hopefully?), but the simple fact of the matter is that even if Public Services were good value for money, the governments current expenditure (Public Services and Social Welfare Benefits) is way too expensive for a country like Ireland. The current system of reforms which seems to be just not replacing retirees isnt sufficient, especially since the exchequer wont see any net saving for a retiring person leaving the PS for over 2 years after their retirement (due to the 150% lump sum + 50% of final salary).

sarumite

sarumite wrote: »

My father is a retired teacher. We were discussing this yesterday and he said that the school year has been eroded over time from over 200 days a year to the current 183 days. With our literacy maths rates dropping, perhaps a some extra weeks of schooling may not do our kids any harm.

Extra weeks!

If schools could manage amount they are supposed to do, never mind the extra!

Today, many schools are off for Easter. What about the time lost due to the snow in January?
When are those days going to be made up?

macannrb

vamos! wrote: »

I get that cuts will have to be made. In some PS departments though, Im not too sure what the extra hours are about. I cant see, in teaching, for example how making everybody have an extra hour of team planning a week will save any money?

Echoing sarumite point, are standard of eduction has been slowly reducing.

I think the idea behind the extra hours is that more services would be provided, by the same cost, and that would be one way to get more out of what is there at the moment. But the implementation is a joke


salonfire's point on real change is very apt. The problem with cutting 25 fire chiefs, is that what do you do with them afterwards? do they fight fire? odds are no, they sit around and you have to create work for them or else they could get constructive dismissal. So by making real reform, you could just be creating problems. And thats how the PS managers are looking at it. They are constrained by the system, and the unions aren't exactly helping the situation

Gumbo

Nody wrote: »

Now there are no noticable savings to date so the second half of the deal (cuts) are coming!

Have you any source for this?
Please dont say your getting your facts from boards.ie or the Indo Newspaper

Im pretty sure reform reports from each Dept. have not been released yet so again, you are simply assuming there are no savings, and remember that assumption is the mother of all **** ups

not yet

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

link

Last week we had Howlin, Noonan, Quinn and Rabbit all coming out with similar statements. It would appear to me that the decision has already been made (most likely by our European overlords) that there is going to be a cut in public sector wages and the government are slowly drip feeding the idea into the public domain so as to get people used to the idea and to dilute the inevitable rage of the unions.

Is it even possible for the average PS worker to improve efficiency or are the problems so endemic that it would that take massive structural reform and this is really just grandstanding from the government?

When do you think they'll announce the cut?

In the morning.

ardmacha

re Chief fire officers

---

It’s a case of too many chiefs and not enough Indians and it’s costing the taxpayer millions each year.
The Republic's Fire Service which employs about 3,400 firefighters, is top heavy with pen pushing administrators who have never wielded an axe or faced a burning building, according to union representatives.
There is one senior manager for every 29 firemen in the country at present, a multiple of the number running similar operations in other countries.
John Kidd, the Dublin Fire Brigade SIPTU representative, says the situation is “unacceptable” and wastes money on managers who lack appropriate experience for the job.
The total amount of wages earned by the top tier of management would cover the recruitment cost of almost 500 firemen on basic pay.
Mr Kidd advocates a broad thinning of the ranks of chief and assistant-chief fire officers. He argues that the saving made would allow more full-time stations in areas of poor coverage.
“It makes no sense to me that we have more than 100 chiefs and assistant chiefs” said Mr Kidd. I assure you if there were that many Garda commissioners and assistants, most people would be asking what the hell is going on”
Department of the Environment figures show there are 30 chief fire officers and 88 assistant chiefs spread over 37 fire authorities nationwide, managing about 3,400 firefighters. That’s one in 29.
The Northern Ireland Fire Service has one chief fire officer, one deputy and two assistant chiefs to manage just under 2000 firefighters: a ratio of one senior manager to every 500 firemen. In England the ratio is one to 180. In Wales, it is one to 303.
The countries 118 senior officers earn just over €10m a year. In contrast, Northern Ireland’s four senior officers cost €420,000 in 2007. Mr Kidd put the annual wages of the Republic’s fire management at “close to €15m” when overtime and callout allowances are taken into account.
“The taxpayers can’t afford to have these 37 empires. It’s absolutely unacceptable that the limited resources that are there are spent in that fashion” he said.
“The money that you’d save from paying all these chiefs you could put into areas like Bray, Lucan, Kilkenny and Leitrim which have no full-time service.”
Westmeath Chief Fire Officer David Stuart, who is an executive member of the Chief Fire Officers Association, said: “A union will always say there are too many bosses”.
He added that Mr Kidd’s contention that less management would lead to more funds for the fire service was: “A very simplistic sort of an argument”.
Mr Kidd also claimed the fire service management lacked the right experience to deal with emergencies due to the low number of chiefs who worked as firefighters prior to being appointed as managers. As it stands, an engineering degree is the qualification to enter senior management.
Mr Kidd said: “Of all our chiefs only nine or 10 came from the ranks. If your going to be a chief fire officer and you never fought a fire, you’ll never truly understand the job”.
The best figure the Department of the Environment could provide was that one chief fire officer and “at least two assistant chiefs were appointed from the ranks”.
Mr Kidd said: “In an emergency in places like Bray (where two firemen died last year) and right across the country, rather than seeing men in white shirts that call themselves chiefs driving red jeeps, people would rather see a fully crewed fire engine outside their door.”
Mr Stuart conceded that the estimate of about 10 chiefs that had previously worked as firemen “isn’t a whole lot wrong” but added: “There’s more to being a chief fire officer than putting out fires.”
He said knowledge of engineering and structures and management skills were necessary requirements. “There’s no restriction as far as I’m aware in terms of firemen getting the qualifications” he added.
He said the establishment of a national fire authority would address many of these concerns.
“The Chief Fire Officers Association has been consistent, more so perhaps than some others, in looking for a national fire authority” he said.
Despite the stark contrast between Ireland and Britain in terms of the ratio of officers to firemen, a Department of the Environment spokesman maintained the 118 senior officers were “necessary”.

---

The earlier paycuts were accepted as they came at a time when pay generally in the economy was falling and an acceptance that some of the froth of the boom had to be removed. But if you go and now further cut the pay of rank and file firemen, without having removed all of this management, they might not be so accepting of the rationale behind the paycut.

Welease

ardmacha wrote: »

The earlier paycuts were accepted as they came at a time when pay generally in the economy was falling and an acceptance that some of the froth of the boom had to be removed. But if you go and now further cut the pay of rank and file firemen, without having removed all of this management, they might not be so accepting of the rationale behind the paycut.

But (for the thousand time).. what else do they expect when they ensure that those unnecessary management can't be removed (as per the CPA)?

ardmacha

But (for the thousand time).. what else do they expect when they ensure that those unnecessary management can't be removed (as per the CPA)?

A plan, perhaps?

In others words:

Ireland: one senior manager for every 29 firemen.
England: one to 180


And England is far more populous and industrious than Ireland.

And tackling this type of nonsense isn't on anyone's radar.

Pay cuts is the order of the day.

Welease

ardmacha wrote: »

A plan, perhaps?

But isn't up to them to come up with the plan?

The got no redundancies and no further cuts in wages from the government.. and in return they were supposed to deliver sufficient cost savings and efficiencies..

If they don't deliver those, then who's fault is it?
If they can't deliver those (becuase of the ratio of pay / costs) then are we supposed to keep borrowing millions to keep swathes of management that they are complaining about intact?

rodento

gregm1159 wrote: »

I hope they have the balls to do it. the public sector will never reform itself as the people in charge will do whatever they can to protect themselves, their salaries, pensions, perks, etc etc. All the rest of us can hope for is that the government will do their job and stop wasting money and get rid of management that has failed to deliver any reforms of worth.

I must live in a parallel universe:eek::rolleyes:

Net wages are down about 20%, early retirements and the recruitment embargo has seen loads of middle and upper management go and those that have been left behind have had to increase their productivity to cover the short fall...

They also want us to work longer hours and reduce our holidays by a week and that'll probably be followed by another pay cut

gregm1159

I have no doubt that savings have been delivered by the CS under the Croke Park agreement. The problem is that the savings have been made by cutting from the bottom and not from the top. My wife is an SNA and they have already cut 2 sna's and are planning to cut up to 6 teaching positions in september. To me the CS has been corrupted by self serving greedy management who's only desire is to protect themselves and damm the rest of us. At the end of the day saving money is the priority so middle management and higher management have no problem making the oridinary staff suffer to protect themselves. This goverment needs to cut away the waste at the top, reduce their salaries, stop ridiculous pay off's and slash pensions. In my opinion no public sector pension should exceed the average industrial wage.

Head The Wall

rodento wrote: »

I must live in a parallel universe:eek::rolleyes:

Net wages are down about 20%, early retirements and the recruitment embargo has seen loads of middle and upper management go and those that have been left behind have had to increase their productivity to cover the short fall...

They also want us to work longer hours and reduce our holidays by a week and that'll probably be followed by another pay cut

Yes you are living in a parallel universe, the net Pay and Pensions bill has dropped by 300 million since 2007. The PS are the ones responsible for finding the savings and implementing them, if thats not happening (happened), whose fault is it. If the Ps staff were so anxious for savings to be made they should be making suggestions but the only ones we are hearing are to give some members time off instead of their banking time and another union flat out refusing to reform

How about you quote your gross pay and not your net pay and stop trying to fudge the situation as well.

20Cent

Good to see people sticking up for themselves instead of rolling over as all the Irish population has been doing.

rodento

How about you take your head out of the clouds

Those figures don't include the early retirement schemes of 2010 & 11:rolleyes:

Loads of people at the higher end of the pay scales have already left the PS, those who are left are picking up the pieces

jakdelad

billions going to farmers
cut that?
why should you get paid to leave your land idle and not till it
absolute madness

Delancey

It should be remembered that the CPA assumed that there was to be no further significant deterioration in the public finances - well since the agreement we have had the IMF/ECB in town - surely that alone justifies binning the idea that the public service can be guaranteed shelter from pay cuts.

Snakeblood

Delancey wrote: »

It should be remembered that the CPA assumed that there was to be no further significant deterioration in the public finances - well since the agreement we have had the IMF/ECB in town - surely that alone justifies binning the idea that the public service can be guaranteed shelter from pay cuts.

There was a get out clause though, for that. If there was a calamity, the agreement could be renegotiated.

the entire CPA was a terrible idea anyway. Agreeing to no pay cuts for 4 years in an economic tailspin was Fianna Fail doing their normal corrupt and sharp practice.

lmimmfn

makes so much sense to cut the PS pay after increasing the minimum wage back up again :rolleyes:

While i think the PS is far too expensive, i highly doubt its the actual lower paid that are the problem.

I think it was stupid to increase the minimum wage back up again, yes yes people will complain on that comment, but everything should be cut, dole, minimum wage, PS pay, private pay, cost of getting a passport/driving test/driving license//nct etc.. Everything in the country is still far to expensive compared to other european countries, yes we are an island but if you use any service you pay a fortune if you buy a burger in the well known multinational burger franchises you pay 25-40% more than on the continent.

The government want high minimum wage because it increases their tax take, they want everything to remain expensive because it increases their VAT take. The economy is still fictional. It has the social aspect of Sweden/Denmark of a relatively high base level of income, however we dont have the model of taxing the rich to bring all those earning into a narrower band of income. Then of course theres the social welfare here which has to still be the best in europe.

Of course theres the problem of people having mortgages based on their salary when they got the mortgages and things have gone to hell since, but i guess most people factor in a potential % loss of income when determining mortgage affordability?

rodento

Delancey wrote: »

It should be remembered that the CPA assumed that there was to be no further significant deterioration in the public finances - well since the agreement we have had the IMF/ECB in town - surely that alone justifies binning the idea that the public service can be guaranteed shelter from pay cuts.

Another dreamer, how is at least 20% drop in net take home pay not a pay cut:rolleyes:

Would also like to add that when times where good my friends in the private sector slagged me off for been a waster working for the public sector, they said I could earn way more money if I went private... Anyway now the times have changed they have lost their jobs and now all they do is complain about the public sector wages, terms and conditions etc.

Guess in life you can't win, but one things true, everyone is taking a share of the pain

One more thing, I didn't get on the property ladder cause I couldn't afford it with ma salary

ardmacha

But isn't up to them to come up with the plan?

It is not the job for firemen to come up with plans, they should be fighting fires, The many chief fire officers are not likely to be to the fore in abolishing themselves. So the government needs drive a national fire plan with 5 regions (or whatever) instead of a rake of small county brigades. Unions could contribute to such a plan, but the government has to make it.

My basic gripe is that in the 3 years or so since the manure hit the cooling device most of of this work has not been done.

dan_d

I don't think that the PS is being softened up, so much as outright warned that paycuts will happen.

We're well past the softening up stage.

Head The Wall

rodento wrote: »

How about you take you head out of the clouds

Those figures don't include the early retirement schemes of 2010 & 11:rolleyes:

Loads of people at the higher end of the pay scales have already left the PS, those who are left are picking up the pieces

You mean those people that retired and most will probably get a 150% lump sum and 50% of salary each year, we won't see any actual savings from that for another 2.5 years. We need savings now not in 2.5 years time

I fear for our country when the people working for the govt can't even do maths

rodento

Take it that 1500000000 is not a saving from PS wage bill after the pay cuts than:rolleyes:

paddy0090

I don't think it'll be a pay cut, not for the lower paid anyway. The government doesn't really get that much from them since they loose a third in taxes. Anyone earning over 50000 could be in for a haircut though especially if the Germans get there way. It's bizarre how much ordinary Germans know how well paid some parts of the public sector are, it really pisses them off. I'm reliably informed that they're sitting in the department going through everything line by line.

I'd say it'll be more taxes on pensions and entitlements.

Services/Quangos will have to be cut or if you like government speak reformed. I don't see the logic of the CPA. It's like the chef on the titanic offering the captain creme brulee after the iceberg. We really don't have time for creme brulee!

The great thing about the CPA was that it kept the Unions off the streets and made Ireland look eerily calm by comparison to Greece and everywhere else. "Our plan is working we've turned the corner" - we're now on baker street.

The civic offices in Ashbourne have been closed since december last due to a technical difficulty, so technically services are already suffering. I don't think they ever really did much that couldn't be done from elsewhere so no one has said anything. Natural wastage will be the order of the day.

It's a bit insane that the state funds two crisis pregnancy agencies that are obliged to give you the same information, by definition they should be voluntary or at least majority self funded. It's by no means a bad cause and the state has given cash to far worse groups. But it'll have to change.

population

rodento wrote: »

Take it that 1500000000 is not a saving from PS wage bill after the pay cuts than:rolleyes:

Adding rolling eyes at the end of every single post is deflecting from their gravitas. I personally do not want anybody to have to take a cut in wages but this is all semantics at this point. Country cannot afford to pay it anymore.

population

rodento wrote: »

Another dreamer, how is at least 20% drop in net take home pay not a pay cut:rolleyes:

Would also like to add that when times where good my friends in the private sector slagged me off for been a waster working for the public sector, they said I could earn way more money if I went private... Anyway now the times have changed they have lost their jobs and now all they do is complain about the public sector wages, terms and conditions etc.

Im sorry but does every single public servant have the same 2 friends who work in the private sector? If I have to hear this baseless anecdote one more time......

Gumbo

population wrote: »

Im sorry but does every single public servant have the same 2 friends who work in the private sector? If I have to hear this baseless anecdote one more time......

its true , when times where good my friends in the private sector slagged me off for been a waster working for the public sector, they said I could earn way more money if I went private... Anyway now the times have changed they have lost their jobs and now all they do is complain about the public sector wages, terms and conditions etc





On a more serious note, im in the Engineering/Architectural/Construction game, at the Design/draughting end and i didnt even bat an eye lid at PS jobs during the boom, but i had a feeling things were changing in 2009 and jumped ship, still have the marks on my back from the shutters comming down on top of me

took a pay cut and no bonus, overtime or mileage etc but its a steady job and the benefits such as work location out weigh the negetive factors, although im still in touch with my old job, they have taken 20% pay cuts but they do do a 4 day week for that 20% cut.

twowheelsonly

population wrote: »

Im sorry but does every single public servant have the same 2 friends who work in the private sector? If I have to hear this baseless anecdote one more time......

Kinda reminds me of the anecdote about all the Public Servant wasters sitting in offices scratching their mebs in between coffee breaks....

Where I work we have already taken all the hits (closer to 26% than 20% BTW..) Our workload has risen dramatically and our staffing levels have fallen through retirees not being replaced - even before the 'Transformation' gang have arrived in town - and are set to fall even further as more and more retire before next February.

Cuts have to happen but have to happen from the top down - and the top means the Dáil. The Chief Officers is a prime example of waste, particularly as very few of these were firemen in the first place. The expense of keeping these costs at the loss of firemen on the ground being recruited. I know which I'd rather see outside my door. Plenty of other departments are in the same boat. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.

The problem with redundancies through natural wastage/retirement is that it takes time to show an effect. Worse again, if you keep replacing top-end jobs at the expense of recruitment at the other end it will take far far longer to show that effect. Same number of Chiefs, even less Indians is no good to any of us.

ardmacha

ardmacha wrote: »

It is not the job for firemen to come up with plans, they should be fighting fires, The many chief fire officers are not likely to be to the fore in abolishing themselves. So the government needs drive a national fire plan with 5 regions (or whatever) instead of a rake of small county brigades. Unions could contribute to such a plan, but the government has to make it.

My basic gripe is that in the 3 years or so since the manure hit the cooling device most of of this work has not been done.

The work hasn't even started. And nobody in Govt is willing to tackle it.

Threatening to broadside the entire PS at a single stroke is preferable to implementing proper reform.


If PS pay is cut again, then it should be loaded on those at the top.

Head The Wall

rodento wrote: »

Take it that 1500000000 is not a saving from PS wage bill after the pay cuts than:rolleyes:

Not when the pay bill kept increasing until 2009, here go and educate yourself and don't be posting rubbish.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2011/Documents/Estimates%20Budget%202011.pdf

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/reports/2010/payanal0510.pdf

WalterMitty

The CPA was a timebomb left by FF as a previous poster said.

Any public servant who is not happy with the inevitable and essential further pay cuts can leave and go to private sector here or public/private sector abroad like so many non-public servants have to already.


I hear the likes of Bliar Horan of CPSU saying 35k is low pay, im sorry but by EU \averages its not! What sort of mad country have we become when we think 35k(not including equivalent value of rolls royce pension, job security etc) is low pay? Cost of everything has to drop in this country from welfare to Pub Sect Pay to Private pay (this is hapening in form of lower starting salaries in new positions and huge unemployment and emmigration).
Check out the clerical officer salary in uk
https://www.myjobscotland.gov.uk/fe/tpl_ScottishPortal01.asp?newms=jj&id=99079
http://www.jobisjob.co.uk/cardiff/public-health-wales-nhs-trust/clerical-officer/job-offer-bf2t46uilyde77xdxgp6imo3le
Head off to uk lads if you dont want to stay and accept further pay cuts in Irish Pub sector, Its only a short flight or boat journey away.

Welease

ardmacha wrote: »

It is not the job for firemen to come up with plans, they should be fighting fires, The many chief fire officers are not likely to be to the fore in abolishing themselves. So the government needs drive a national fire plan with 5 regions (or whatever) instead of a rake of small county brigades. Unions could contribute to such a plan, but the government has to make it.

But they themselves are complaining that unless you have fought a fire then you have no understanding of what the job entails.. So how could a government minister be any better than all these fire chiefs were are currently paying for?

It would just be another excuse for failing to deliver on the promised efficiencies, and it now appears that the union have decided that the best plan of action is to blame members of other unions for the failings. (How many times has that happened recently)

The unions got the agreement they wanted, they signed up for no further pay cuts or forced redundancies.. If they want these people removed and 5 bodies etc setup, then allow the CPA agreement to be removed and lets get on with replacing them.. Because currently, that can't be done.

But they don't.. this is another smokescreen and diversionary tactic.

ardmacha wrote: »

My basic gripe is that in the 3 years or so since the manure hit the cooling device most of of this work has not been done.

Agreed.. And as I have always posted.. I don't want to see any further pay cuts (or even the initial ones), I believe there is enough scope to remove waste by aggressive change.. but 3 years down the line little appears to have been done, and unfortunately they will potentially be hit again.. If they want to be treated like adults then they need to act like adults, and deliver their side of the bargain.

20Cent

All of this is moving deckchairs around the titanic, what really need to be done is to demonstrate to the ECB and the IMF that they need to free Ireland from the private debt they insist we pay and are not liable for.
An all out general strike, thats everybody in every sector, mortgage and rent strikes as well. Once they realise that the Irish people are not willing to be the sacrifice to save the euro but will pay sovereign debt, then also we need to see some prosecutions and developers liquidating their empires.
Once that happens people will be willing to "share the pain". Otherwise anyone who does accept paycuts is a fool.

danbohan

20Cent wrote: »

All of this is moving deckchairs around the titanic, what really need to be done is to demonstrate to the ECB and the IMF that they need to free Ireland from the private debt they insist we pay and are not liable for.
An all out general strike, thats everybody in every sector, mortgage and rent strikes as well. Once they realise that the Irish people are not willing to be the sacrifice to save the euro but will pay sovereign debt, then also we need to see some prosecutions and developers liquidating their empires.
Once that happens people will be willing to "share the pain". Otherwise anyone who does accept paycuts is a fool.

they must be trembling in Berlin and Paris after reading that . we are what a very small part of the overall EU economy remember , strike all you like but if our masters turn off the funding tap what happens ?. the Irish arrogance that exploded in the faces of the rest of Europe in the boom years is still alive and well it seems , perhaps a period of rooting through dustbins is exactly what is needed

OMD

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Kinda reminds me of the anecdote about all the Public Servant wasters sitting in offices scratching their mebs in between coffee breaks....

Where I work we have already taken all the hits (closer to 26% than 20% BTW..) Our workload has risen dramatically and our staffing levels have fallen through retirees not being replaced - even before the 'Transformation' gang have arrived in town - and are set to fall even further as more and more retire before next February.

I hate this rubbish. You have not taken a 26% pay cut and to pretend you have just insults the intelligence of everyone here. If you want us to believe it then please provide figures. I have quoted figures on a different thread showing a "low paid" CPSU member will have had a pay rise in the last 4 years of 8.5% before pension levy. Those earning over 250,000 will have had their pay cut by almost 24% when you include pay cuts and pension levy. So, even if you earn €250,000 a year you still have not reached 26%. Tax rises are not pay cuts and they affect everyone so cannot be used to somehow show the pain

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Cuts have to happen but have to happen from the top down

Pay cuts at least have effected the top. Highest earning PS have seen pay cuts of up to 24% lowest earning have seen pay rises of 8%. When you add in tax rises the highest paid will have seen their takehome pay cut by 40% and yet compared to PS around the world, the problem has always been that the lower paid are the ones who have been overpaid compared to what similar earn elsewhere

20Cent

danbohan wrote: »

they must be trembling in Berlin and Paris after reading that . we are what a very small part of the overall EU economy remember , strike all you like but if our masters turn off the funding tap what happens ?. the Irish arrogance that exploded in the faces of the rest of Europe in the boom years is still alive and well it seems , perhaps a period of rooting through dustbins is exactly what is needed

Not wanting to pay the debts of private gamblers is arrogance?
I'd call it capitalism myself.

Welease

20Cent wrote: »

All of this is moving deckchairs around the titanic, what really need to be done is to demonstrate to the ECB and the IMF that they need to free Ireland from the private debt they insist we pay and are not liable for.
An all out general strike, thats everybody in every sector, mortgage and rent strikes as well. Once they realise that the Irish people are not willing to be the sacrifice to save the euro but will pay sovereign debt, then also we need to see some prosecutions and developers liquidating their empires.
Once that happens people will be willing to "share the pain". Otherwise anyone who does accept paycuts is a fool.

And what about the defecit?

You do realise we have a collosal defecit irrespective of the banks? Do we just plough along and ignore this problem also?

danbohan

20Cent wrote: »

Not wanting to pay the debts of private gamblers is arrogance?
I'd call it capitalism myself.

no , but thinking that you can do it while depending on ''the kindness of strangers'' is