Does Christianity have a future? BBC1 10.25pm

ironingbored

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b010n3qr

Dave!

I absofúckinglutely HATE Ann Widdecombe... Cannot possibly watch her

Funnily enough just watched an episode of Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe where he takes the píss out of her a bit :pac:

robindch

Dave! wrote: »

just watched an episode of Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe where he takes the píss out of her a bit :pac:

New series? If so, cool!

Dave!

robindch wrote: »

New series? If so, cool!

Nah, it's from series 4, he was just talking about a show in which she 'researches' prostitution... Basically chastising people.

pH

Well to summarise, for those for whom an hour of Widdecombe is just too much:

You really should believe in Christianity and go to church - Catholicism is best if you could manage it, if not you might try something else with Jesus.

The future of Christianity is :

• Immigrants
• Happy Clappy Pentecostal churches
• Young people (if they weren't so obsessed with their iPods, and would only pull their pants up and get back to church) - they're *not* like their parents who hated/rejected Christianity, this lot haven't even really heard about it.

Other points covered:

Homosexuality is still wrong (we love them though)

And very strangely (and yes I'm being sarcastic) other religions aren't even mentioned - there's a straight choice, you're Christian or atheist.

Dave!

Fair play pH, took one for the team there... Now go wash your eyes and ears out with soap.

Nodin

Dave! wrote: »

I absofúckinglutely HATE Ann Widdecombe... Cannot possibly watch her

Funnily enough just watched an episode of Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe where he takes the píss out of her a bit :pac:

t'would appear somebody else does too, as the whole Beeb site seems to be down.

Penn

Terrible program. Interviewed two people who disagree with her, and about 7 young people who don't really care.

Then there was a bit where some guy takes a bunch of teens to a curry house for meals, then tells them Bible stories but modernised to include surfers etc, and not mentioning God or Religion and letting them draw their own conclusions. (aka Tricking them into believing in God)

She also said that atheists opinions are not as valid as Christians, until the guy she was talking to asked her to clarify if she meant in general or spiritually, and she kinda half-heartedly nodded to spiritually.

Then at the beginning of the programme, she was saying how lots of small churches are closing down. Then at the end, mentions how attendance at Cathedral masses are increasing, yet no-one can really explain why.

Oohhh ooohh (raises hand) Miss! Miss! I know! I know! Is it because the people who did still go to the smaller churches now have to go elsewhere? I mean, I know you probably doubt evolution, but 2+2 does still equal 4, doesn't it?

Horribly presented. Horribly edited (constantly showing young people texting or with low jeans when talking about them as if they represent everyone). Horribly biased (fair enough, she's Christian. But the programme is "Does Christianity have a future?", not "How is Christianity going to survive?")

Penn

Some clips available here. Haven't watched these clips myself so don't know which bits are included, but you'll get the general gist I reckon.

Galvasean

They should have shown that Intelligence Squared debate where she and another got annihilated by Hitchens and Fry. Or better yet shown her dancing on ice.

Penn

Galvasean wrote: »

They should have shown that Intelligence Squared debate where she and another got annihilated by Hitchens and Fry.

Link? Haven't heard of that one.

CiaranMT

Barrington wrote: »

Link? Haven't heard of that one.

Here's the first part, you'll find the rest in the links at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCdnh7G87m4

CiaranMT

RE the show, watching the clip posted by Barrington.

Widdecombe attempts to challenge Johann Hari and Rev Stvens and gets shown up on both occasions. Especially so by the Rev, who, when questioned about the seemingly large influence the CoE has on ethics, he points out that they have just 4% of the representation in the House of Lords.

rightyabe

Yeah the "curry house religion" I think this is a perfect example of morals without religion, the priest was talking about surfing etc and teaching the teenagers moarls and not talking about god.

Does this not prove that religion is not needed to have morals? so he's basically doing himself out of a job in a small way.


Overall I thought it was s**t, Christanity will have to change so much in the future that it may as well dissolve completly. In my opinion.

philologos

Barrington wrote: »

Terrible program. Interviewed two people who disagree with her, and about 7 young people who don't really care.

It wasn't a well produced program, but I'm led to believe that she is right. I'm basing this on anecdotal evidence in Ireland and Britain from serving in both countries for a period of time in a Christian context. The problem isn't with the Gospel as Johann Hari seems to suggest (indeed he didn't come across as if he knew much more than a caricature of this).

The simple fact of the matter is churches are growing in both Britain and Ireland, indeed and para-church missions are also working effectively both in Britain and Ireland. I haven't a doubt that Christianity will survive in both.

The example I'm most familiar since I am involved with it directly is the Christian Union movement at universities and IT's in Ireland (these groups are working in the vast majority of universities and IT's and there has been a huge growth in recent decades), and indeed the movement in Britain and 150 other countries worldwide. More and more people are seeking answers, and more and more people are beginning a life-long relationship with Jesus Christ in Britain and Ireland. Others are falling off and that is natural. I thank the new-atheists for giving us an opportunity to communicate the Gospel.

Barrington wrote: »

Then there was a bit where some guy takes a bunch of teens to a curry house for meals, then tells them Bible stories but modernised to include surfers etc, and not mentioning God or Religion and letting them draw their own conclusions. (aka Tricking them into believing in God)

I don't think it is the best approach. I think people should be overt about Jesus and I'm not sure that this approach will bring people to Christ. However, I know for a fact that other approaches will, have and do work. I've seen them work.

Barrington wrote: »

She also said that atheists opinions are not as valid as Christians, until the guy she was talking to asked her to clarify if she meant in general or spiritually, and she kinda half-heartedly nodded to spiritually.

In fairness, I don't believe atheist positions are valid either in that I believe they are utterly false. I'm open to discussion and I am open to reason in respect to them.

Barrington wrote: »

Then at the beginning of the programme, she was saying how lots of small churches are closing down. Then at the end, mentions how attendance at Cathedral masses are increasing, yet no-one can really explain why.

I think she's wrong. I think small churches are growing. No church should have to shut doors people should be bold and see it as an opportunity for evangelism. She brought up the example of a church that was re-opened in Brighton. The problem wasn't with the teachings of Jesus, or with Christianity, but with the approach that the church was previously taking.

Barrington wrote: »

Oohhh ooohh (raises hand) Miss! Miss! I know! I know! Is it because the people who did still go to the smaller churches now have to go elsewhere? I mean, I know you probably doubt evolution, but 2+2 does still equal 4, doesn't it?

I don't agree with you either. She had a valid point when she was speaking with the Archbishop of Canterbury. It is when the Gospel is diluted in churches that people start to wonder what is different there from what is in the world. Why would I go to church when I can go shopping if it doesn't give me opportunities both to grow as a disciple of Jesus, and two to serve Him in reaching others or in building the church itself, disciple others. As I will be making decisions about what to do with the rest of my life I will be finding a church that allows me to do these things in fullness just as I've had the opportunity to do so. Following Jesus doesn't mean just going to church, it means actively participating in church and in being an outward expression of Christ to non-believers. I don't believe that I am by far the best representation of this, but I can try and I can pray that God might be glorified. You could say I'm quite evangelical.

Barrington wrote: »

Horribly presented. Horribly edited (constantly showing young people texting or with low jeans when talking about them as if they represent everyone). Horribly biased (fair enough, she's Christian. But the programme is "Does Christianity have a future?", not "How is Christianity going to survive?")

The answer to the question is obvious if you just look around you. Perhaps I've had a good deal more insight into the workings of things in some ways, but I believe strongly that Christianity will be around for years and years to come and this is based on clear evidence.

Improbable

I hope that eventually, all religion dwindles down to what it should be. Something that people believe in the privacy of their own minds without making the rest of us suffer for it.

philologos

Improbable wrote: »

I hope that eventually, all religion dwindles down to what it should be. Something that people believe in the privacy of their own minds without making the rest of us suffer for it.

I don't see how you've suffered for my beliefs apart from the fact that you read my posts here :pac:

Improbable

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see how you've suffered for my beliefs apart from the fact that you read my posts here :pac:

Anything that causes people to say "Sure, I don't care if it's a mystery, We'll just say god did it." instead of searching for real answers is harmful.

SirenX

I couldn't even sit through the clip that was posted by another member. omg that was the worst doc I've seen in a loooonnnngg time. I feel like punching her.

just because I think that believing in an imaginary friend for adults is totally idiotic and primative doesn't mean that christians opinions are any less or greater than mine. how ignorant to suggest that people who don't believe in Jesus Christ (whose story is continuously being repeated through the history of religion, see horrus, one of the many gods of egypt, had the exact same story, 12 deciples, born of a virgin, betrayed, died only to rise again in three days, yadda yadda yadda) doesn't make them second class citizens.





I apologise for my atrocious spelling

SirenX

n/m

Improbable

SirenX wrote: »

@Jakkass


why why why are you in the Athiest & Agnostic forum? you are clearly neither. you don't see me going on the the Christianity forum spouting my beliefs to people whom would most likely be offended so why come here?
clearly the churches are not growing. just look at the amount of people on this forum. you wouldn't find this many Athiests and Agnostics in Ireland 100 years ago.

Without religious people to debate with, this would be a more boring place. That's what's so great about A&A, we can all gather and debate and discuss.

SirenX

Improbable wrote: »

Without religious people to debate with, this would be a more boring place. That's what's so great about A&A, we can all gather and debate and discuss.

I didn't think of it that way, you totally right

CiaranMT

SirenX wrote: »

@Jakkass


why why why are you in the Athiest & Agnostic forum? you are clearly neither. you don't see me going on the the Christianity forum spouting my beliefs to people whom would most likely be offended so why come here?
clearly the churches are not growing. just look at the amount of people on this forum. you wouldn't find this many Athiests and Agnostics in Ireland 100 years ago.

Jakkass and other posters like him are a welcome addition in the forum, they provide a reasonable religious side to the debate which is needed.

SirenX

once again I didn't think of it that way, just a bit tired so am in a very narrow minded state of thinking at the moment

JimiTime

Improbable wrote: »

I hope that eventually, all religion dwindles down to what it should be. Something that people believe in the privacy of their own minds without making the rest of us suffer for it.

And while you indulge in the privacy of YOUR own mind, multitudes of Christians around the globe actively engage in trying to RELIEVE the suffering of people as a direct result of the Gospel of Jesus Christ turning their hearts from selfishness to selflessness.

Christendom, even in its hypocritical hierarchies, has not quenched the Gospel of Christ from among true believers. While some will seek to rewrite history to satisfy their own misled views about how religion brings nothing but badness, true Christians, even under the tyranny of their own religious leaders at times, still done and DO the very opposite of make people suffer. You can be guaranteed, that not only would this world be a darker place without the essence of Christ that has gone before, but there are a lot more Christians out there trying to ease suffering as you tippy tappy on your keyboard pontificating about how you suffer because some Christians don't just shrink back into their heads. When the day of Judgement arrives, there will be many shouts of 'Why weren't you MORE fervent with the Good News of the Kingdom'. So many of you render terms like 'suffering', 'child abuse', 'homophobe' etc so utterly meaningless in your quest to vilify.

Improbable

JimiTime wrote: »

And while you indulge in the privacy of YOUR own mind, multitudes of Christians around the globe actively engage in trying to RELIEVE the suffering of people as a direct result of the Gospel of Jesus Christ turning their hearts from selfishness to selflessness.

Christendom, even in its hypocritical hierarchies, has not quenched the Gospel of Christ from among true believers. While some will seek to rewrite history to satisfy their own misled views about how religion brings nothing but badness, true Christians, even under the tyranny of their own religious leaders at times, still done and DO the very opposite of make people suffer. You can be guaranteed, that not only would this world be a darker place without the essence of Christ that has gone before, but there are a lot more Christians out there trying to ease suffering as you tippy tappy on your keyboard pontificating about how you suffer because some Christians don't just shrink back into their heads. When the day of Judgement arrives, there will be many shouts of 'Why weren't you MORE fervent with the Good News of the Kingdom'. So many of you render terms like 'suffering', 'child abuse', 'homophobe' etc so utterly meaningless in your quest to vilify.

I do plenty to help people whenever I can, I just don't need the threat of eternal punishment to make me do it.

CiaranMT

JimiTime wrote: »

And while you indulge in the privacy of YOUR own mind, multitudes of Christians around the globe actively engage in trying to RELIEVE the suffering of people as a direct result of the Gospel of Jesus Christ turning their hearts from selfishness to selflessness.

You can keep your gospel, thanks. One doesn't need a Bible to realise that selflessness is a valued and rewarding practice.

Christendom, even in its hypocritical hierarchies, has not quenched the Gospel of Christ from among true believers. While some will seek to rewrite history to satisfy their own misled views about how religion brings nothing but badness, true Christians, even under the tyranny of their own religious leaders at times, still done and DO the very opposite of make people suffer. You can be guaranteed, that not only would this world be a darker place without the essence of Christ that has gone before, but there are a lot more Christians out there trying to ease suffering as you tippy tappy on your keyboard pontificating about how you suffer because some Christians don't just shrink back into their heads. When the day of Judgement arrives, there will be many shouts of 'Why weren't you MORE fervent with the Good News of the Kingdom'. So many of you render terms like 'suffering', 'child abuse', 'homophobe' etc so utterly meaningless in your quest to vilify.

I've no doubt there are Christians out trying to relieve suffering. I acknowledge that theirs is a noble endeavour in principle. However, I don't agree that providing solace by invoking a unknown, unknowable, morally ambivalent, self-contradictory deity as a panacaea to ones ills is useful.

JimiTime

Improbable wrote: »

I do plenty to help people whenever I can

Well you can be guaranteed, that there are a lot of Christians dedicating their lives for others as a direct result of the Good News of Jesus Christ that they received into their hearts. They become beacons for the light of Christ, and his love inspires more love. A by product of which is having a desire through love to ease suffering. So when you think of how you 'suffer' at the hands of Christians being public, just think of the amount of people, who motivated by Christ, dedicate their lives to ease ACTUAL suffering in the world.

, I just don't need the threat of eternal punishment to make me do it.

A common ignorance of motive espoused by anti-Christians.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Well you can be guaranteed, that there are a lot of Christians dedicating their lives for others as a direct result of the Good News of Jesus Christ that they received into their hearts.

Yeah, you see the problem is the don't do it for that reason because your god doesn't exist and your religion isn't true (checks in the right forum, yes good).

So they do it for various psychological reasons, some noble some less noble, but all of which would still exist in world with little to no religion.

So these claims by yourself and others that we should be thankful for the existence of your religion have very little meaning to us.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Yeah, you see the problem is the don't do it for that reason because your god doesn't exist and your religion isn't true (checks in the right forum, yes good).

So they do it for various psychological reasons, some noble some less noble, but all of which would still exist in world with little to no religion.

So these claims by yourself and others that we should be thankful for the existence of your religion have very little meaning to us.

Except that they ARE motivated by the Good News of Christ. Whether you believe he exists or not, they exhibit in action, this love which is a witness to the power of the message.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Except that they ARE motivated by the Good News of Christ. Whether you believe he exists or not, they exhibit in action, this love which is a witness to the power of the message.

.. if your religion is true. Otherwise they are simply doing good things because they think doing good things is good, and crediting Christianity because Christianity has told them that if they want to do good things it is because of God, the Good News, the "power of the message" etc etc

Again, atheist forum Jimi. The Christian BS don't get an automatic pass here.