NI Police chief Matt Baggott in parades warning

KeithAFC

Northern Ireland's police chief has warned of a repeat of the violence which marred last summer's marching season and appealed to those involved in parading disputes to reach agreement.

Matt Baggott said he is concerned that dissident republicans may again seek to foment trouble around contentious flashpoints.

Riotous scenes erupted across Northern Ireland last July, the most serious at Ardoyne in north Belfast where police came under sustained attack four nights in a row, and the cost of policing the whole marching season was almost £4 million.

"I saw what happened last summer and I think the terrorists were quite able to exploit areas of disaffection and young people that put real pressure on the PSNI," he said. "They wanted us to overreact but we didn't.

"So am I concerned? Yes. I think what we will have to see in the next three months is even more local dialogue, more give and take."

A legislative framework aimed at resolving contentious parades agreed between the Democratic Unionists and Sinn Fein floundered when the Orange Order refused to back the plan.

The ill-fated blueprint would have seen the controversial body that adjudicates on whether events proceed - the Parades Commission - replaced with a system aimed at fostering locally based agreements.

Mr Baggott said it is not just the politicians who have a responsibility to resolve the issue.

"I think it's broader than just senior politicians," he said. "I think it's about local groups being willing to engage. It's about different groups willing to give some ground and be more consensual on that.

"And I think the lessons from last year are: why would we want to throw away everything that's happened in the last year in terms of progress? We are in place now: we need investment, we need jobs, we need health, we need education and we are in a recession. Why would we want to throw away money for the sake of a lack of dialogue or a lack of give and take?"

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/police-chief-matt-baggott-in-parades-warning-15143056.html

Hopefully there will be no violence this time. The attempt to kill a police woman last time didn't go down too well, so lets hope for no repeat.

Wolfe Tone

Keith, how about we hope that the OO decides to keep its base triumphalism to places where it is actually wanted?


This problem is very easily solved, march where you are wanted, simple as.


These "contentious" marches aren't about culture, they are simply about trying to get the croppies to lie down.

Madam

Here in Glasgow the OO get to march a route to and from the city centre to a park(don't know who chooses which as it differs from year to year). There is no reason for them to march in any neighbourhood to annoy it's residents - why can't they do this in NI? I'm inclined to think it is indeed 'triumphalism' that foremost in the OO's minds!

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Keith, how about we hope that the OO decides to keep its base triumphalism to places where it is actually wanted?


This problem is very easily solved, march where you are wanted, simple as.


These "contentious" marches aren't about culture, they are simply about trying to get the croppies to lie down.

Can the Hunger strike marches in Belfast please stop doing that? After all, it is N.I and not the Irish republic. Perhaps they could go do it in Dublin?

Another republican parade took place just recently about Irish martyrs. Seems to be no equality here.

ardmacha

Another republican parade took place just recently about Irish martyrs. Seems to be no equality here.

In what district did these parades take place? How many of them are there in a year? There is indeed no equality with the OO which marches all over the place.

KeithAFC

ardmacha wrote: »

In what district did these parades take place? How many of them are there in a year? There is indeed no equality with the OO which marches all over the place.

So commemorating IRA murderers is OK with you?

Madam

Ban them all:rolleyes:

ardmacha

So commemorating IRA murderers is OK with you?

Please don't put words in my mouth.

In response to a posting about people marching where you are wanted, you introduced these republican parades to the discussion. I simply said that there were less of these and they were generally confined to nationalist areas. You cannot claim one lot of parades commemorating conflict as acceptable and another lot as unacceptable.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Can the Hunger strike marches in Belfast please stop doing that? After all, it is N.I and not the Irish republic. Perhaps they could go do it in Dublin?

Another republican parade took place just recently about Irish martyrs. Seems to be no equality here.

If they march with the agreement of the residents, ie in places where they are wanted, that is perfectly acceptable.


Quite ironic that you are saying the OO are being discriminated against.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If they march with the agreement of the residents, ie in places where they are wanted, that is perfectly acceptable.


Quite ironic that you are saying the OO are being discriminated against.

Like what places? Do places belong to nationalists now? I thought it was a shared society? The old nationalist tribal menality comes out again.

dan719

Who gives a flying f*ck?

Honestly, who cares about a battle that took place in 1690 before any of our great great great great grandparents were even thought of?

How pathetic do you have to be to celebrate that, unless you're trying to get a rise out of people?

And to people who let it p*ss them off, well then, stop giving the big mean OO the satisfaction?

The good thing about the twelveth parades is that the normal sane residents leave NI for the weekend. It's a good litmus test for the crazies, as well as a boost to the economy of the Republic.

KeithAFC

dan719 wrote: »

Who gives a flying f*ck?

Honestly, who cares about a battle that took place in 1690 before any of our great great great great grandparents were even thought of?

How pathetic do you have to be to celebrate that, unless you're trying to get a rise out of people?

And to people who let it p*ss them off, well then, stop giving the big mean OO the satisfaction?

The good thing about the twelveth parades is that the normal sane residents leave NI for the weekend. It's a good litmus test for the crazies, as well as a boost to the economy of the Republic.

Ah the good old 'Normal residents leave N.I for the weekend' myth. It really should stop being used. Never heard a bigger lot of nonsense in all my life.

Madam

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ah the good old 'Normal residents leave N.I for the weekend' myth. It really should stop being used. Never heard a bigger lot of nonsense in all my life.

So all those Northern Irish people I meet in Bundoran or Inishowen around the 12th of July are figments of my imagination

KeithAFC

Madam wrote: »

So all those Northern Irish people I meet in Bundoran or Inishowen around the 12th of July are figments of my imagination

Most likely bitter republicans. I know so many people who can't wait for the 12th.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Most likely bitter republicans. I know so many people who can't wait for the 12th.

Or it could just be people who don't want to have any part in that rubbish so they leave for the day?

Madam

Oh I've met some really nice folk who come for the day to Rossnowlagh - no triumphalism there, Just a wee march, something to eat and a drink afterwards then home blissfully unaware at all the locals laughing at them:) yis know your place in the Republic:D

Denerick

Madam wrote: »

Oh I've met some really nice folk who come for the day to Rossnowlagh - no triumphalism there, Just a wee march, something to eat and a drink afterwards then home blissfully unaware at all the locals laughing at them:) yis know your place in the Republic:D

They know rightly that the locals laugh at them, they aren't stupid.

I think the marches are stupid but evidently they are important to a segment of the Unionist population up North. Perhaps the rough estates won't rise up this time like last year? Last year in Ardoyne was rough, it was like every little boy racer and yahoo had all his christmasses at once.

KeithAFC

Denerick wrote: »

They know rightly that the locals laugh at them, they aren't stupid.

I think the marches are stupid but evidently they are important to a segment of the Unionist population up North. Perhaps the rough estates won't rise up this time like last year? Last year in Ardoyne was rough, it was like every little boy racer and yahoo had all his christmasses at once.

It isn't marching in Ardoyne. It is past Ardoyne on a road everyone uses all year round. They don't own the road.

Yitzhak Rabin

I think the marches are silly.

But I think the republicans who work themselves into a kink and smash up their own neighbourhoods are far sillier.

Seriously, its a bunch of fools celebrating a victory from the 17th century. Why not just laugh at them and get on with your life. Although I suppose some people do love any chance for a bit of thuggery.

nordydan

KeithAFC wrote: »

Most likely bitter republicans. I know so many people who can't wait for the 12th.

yes, hotel owners in the republic love the 12th alright. Their counterparts in the North are not so keen!

Savage Tyrant

It's certainly no coincidence that the week of the 12th is one of the most active weeks for tourism in the south. And the visitor are certainly not exclusively "bitter republicans" as Keith says. They aren't even exclusively nationalist or catholic. Plenty of protestants travel down to get away from the silliness of it.

KeithAFC

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

It's certainly no coincidence that the week of the 12th is one of the most active weeks for tourism in the south. And the visitor are certainly not exclusively "bitter republicans" as Keith says. They aren't even exclusively nationalist or catholic. Plenty of protestants travel down to get away from the silliness of it.

Depends what you mean by plenty. Many more go to it.

Savage Tyrant

KeithAFC wrote: »

Depends what you mean by plenty. Many more go to it.

Many more? I doubt it. Many more probably stay at home and live their lives ignoring it completely though.
The 12th is important to only quite a small overall portion of the 6 county population actually. My guess (and I admit it is a guess) is that less than 20% of the overall population in the north take any active part in "celebrating" the 12th.

KeithAFC

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Many more? I doubt it. Many more probably stay at home and live their lives ignoring it completely though.
The 12th is important to only quite a small overall portion of the 6 county population actually. My guess (and I admit it is a guess) is that less than 20% of the overall population in the north take any active part in "celebrating" the 12th.

Well over 500,000 people turned out for the twelfth in 2008.

Chuck Stone

I wonder how the OO would feel about a Catholic band joining in to commemorate the Catholics that foughtg for King William?

Chuck Stone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well over 500,000 people turned out for the twelfth in 2008.

That's amazing. 500,000 people turning up to watch all that silliness.

Savage Tyrant

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That's amazing. 500,000 people turning up to watch all that silliness.

I'd say that's probably an exaggerated number...But even if not, it only accounts for about 30% of the northern population.

KeithAFC

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That's amazing. 500,000 people turning up to watch all that silliness.

I don't think its silly. But im glad we have the freedom to do it in Ulster.

Chuck Stone

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't think its silly. But im glad we have the freedom to do it in Ulster.

Would you support the freedom of the residents of Ardoyne to request that that road be closed on the 12th July because they'd like to have festival celebrating Irish culture on it?

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Would you support the freedom of the residents of Ardoyne to request that that road be closed on the 12th July because they'd like to have festival celebrating Irish culture on it?

Nothing to stop the residents of the ardoyne having a festival in the ardoyne on the 12th since the orange order dies not actully parade through the ardoyne but rather passes it, but hey why let the truth get in the way of a good argument. So what happens if orange lodge is based in an area were it has no choice but to pass near a nationalist area such as ballynifeagh which owing to a large obstruction known as the lagan river, has to cross the oreamu bridge and parade through the holy lands in order to join the main procession?

KeithAFC

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Would you support the freedom of the residents of Ardoyne to request that that road be closed on the 12th July because they'd like to have festival celebrating Irish culture on it?

Why could the bands not walk on the road with them?

junder

nordydan wrote: »

yes, hotel owners in the republic love the 12th alright. Their counterparts in the North are not so keen!

Really? Have you ever tried to book a hotel in belfast over the 12th period, you have no hope of getting a room unless you have booked months in advance

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

Nothing to stop the residents of the ardoyne having a festival in the ardoyne on the 12th since the orange order dies not actully parade through the ardoyne but rather passes it

You didn't answer the question.

Chuck Stone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why could the bands not walk on the road with them?

Because the people enoying the festival wouldn't be able to hear the fiddles.

Wolfe Tone

A loyalist terror group linked to scores of sectarian killings is believed to be planning to march hundreds of its members through Belfast next year.

The UVF plans to make the show of strength under the cover of marking the 100th anniversary of the Ulster Covenant.

The shocking claim is made in a letter sent to the Belfast Telegraph written by disgruntled UVF members who argue that the loyalist ‘war' is over and that they should be allowed to leave the organisation.

The plan could mean hundreds of uniformed loyalists marching through leafy south Belfast in the first mass paramilitary demonstration in three decades.

Serried ranks of masked paramilitaries were a familiar sight in loyalist areas at the height of the troubles.

The UVF plan would see a phalanx of hundreds of its members marching along the mixed Lisburn Road — a middle-class shopping thoroughfare in the south of the city.

The demonstration would require Parades Commission approval, but it is inconceivable that the application would be submitted in the terror group’s name.

The most likely scenario would see permission being sought in the name of a loyalist ‘cultural’ front organisation, but giving the go-ahead would inevitably spark a political firestorm.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/loyalist-terror-group-plans-march-through-belfast-15143867.html#ixzz1Js3LflcF

I suppose this is "culture" too and should be allowed?

gurramok

Matt Baggot trying to play Mr Neutral while this time it's clear to see who is provoking the trouble, that is the OO which blatantly refused compromising proposals on marching which were drawn up by SF & DUP.

PatsytheNazi

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well over 500,000 people turned out for the twelfth in 2008.

500,000 - what independent agency do you get that alleged statistic from ??

Yitzhak Rabin

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I suppose this is "culture" too and should be allowed?

Well I think it should be allowed, but I also think that the people celebrating it are completely delusional, backward morons.

But you have to ask yourself, what is the difference in people celebrating their solemn promise to resist what they would see as foreign occupation, and the celebrating the men of 1916 who did the same thing with the proclamation?

Wolfe Tone

yekahS wrote: »

Well I think it should be allowed, but I also think that the people celebrating it are completely delusional, backward morons.

But you have to ask yourself, what is the difference in people celebrating their solemn promise to resist what they would see as foreign occupation, and the celebrating the men of 1916 who did the same thing with the proclamation?

I would say it is wrong if the RIRA etc where out on parade. I dont object to commemorating it, UVF doing so is a joke.

Yitzhak Rabin

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I would say it is wrong if the RIRA etc where out on parade. I dont object to commemorating it, UVF doing so is a joke.

Well it wouldn't be the UVF. It would be some 'loyalist cultural group', in the same way that it wouldn't be RIRA, it would be RSF or 32CSM. But if you had a venn diagram of RIRA and RSF I'm sure the centre would have plenty of overlap, just like the UVF/Cultural group would.

I'd oppose to either march as I disagree with what they are celebrate, but neither should be banned, as you should be free to celebrate whatever you want, despite how barbaric it is.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I suppose this is "culture" too and should be allowed?

Whats the difference? You get ex IRA killers coming out for Hunger striker rallies.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Reguarding the orange order parades and loyalist bands I generally find the parades commission make the right decisions.

Problem with Ardoyne is people enjoy rioting, nothing else. Its an arterial route and when they go past the edge of a nationalist area they aren't allowed play music.

There's a vacuum now because the rioters have no fear of the provisional movement.

The Waltzing Consumer

KeithAFC wrote: »

Whats the difference? You get ex IRA killers coming out for Hunger striker rallies.

Keith, I would hope by now that you realise the vast majority of people on this site would not support hunger striker rallies either. Not wishing to speak for everyone, but I would guess the vast vast majority of people in Ireland would not want ANY parade if it caused continuous violence or was linked to sectarianism or triumphalism. We have enough real problems without having to deal with backwards thinking fundamentalists who get their knickers in a twist because of a stupid marching route.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I suppose this is "culture" too and should be allowed?

It seems some people in the republican movement are a bit upset when thousands upon thousands of PUL people will be taking to the roads in the up coming 100th Anniversary of our volunteers. Scare mongering springs to mind.

nordydan

junder wrote: »

Really? Have you ever tried to book a hotel in belfast over the 12th period, you have no hope of getting a room unless you have booked months in advance

TBH if i owned a hotel the last type of guests i'd want would be boozed scottish flute bands singing the famine song all night.

A better type of guest, both Catholic & Protestant, crosses the border to avoid the 12th

junder

nordydan wrote: »

TBH if i owned a hotel the last type of guests i'd want would be boozed scottish flute bands singing the famine song all night.

A better type of guest, both Catholic & Protestant, crosses the border to avoid the 12th

And there we go, when all else fails resort to generlisations and
Stereotyping, :rolleyes:

sdanseo

yekahS wrote: »

I think the marches are silly.

But I think the republicans who work themselves into a kink and smash up their own neighbourhoods are far sillier.

Seriously, its a bunch of fools celebrating a victory from the 17th century. Why not just laugh at them and get on with your life. Although I suppose some people do love any chance for a bit of thuggery.

Everyone thank this and make it post of the day.

Chuck Stone

sdonn wrote: »

Everyone thank this and make it post of the day.

No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsFtiruIok

southsiderosie

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ah the good old 'Normal residents leave N.I for the weekend' myth. It really should stop being used. Never heard a bigger lot of nonsense in all my life.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Depends what you mean by plenty. Many more go to it.

Haha, when I first moved to Belfast (in the month of June) pretty much everyone I met, including a lot of Eastern Europeans, told me that most "sensible" people either left, or stayed in their homes for the 11th and 12th. As there was a gigantic trash dump bonfire being assembled three blocks from my house, I went down to Dublin for the "main event", where I was surrounded by Nordy accents at Grogan's.

Over the course of June and July, three OO parades went through my area (Ballynafeigh). At one, there was lots of open alcohol consumption, and at one point a cop yelled at them, laughing "Can you be a little less obvious?". Another very young guy trotted by with a UVF flag in his backpack and nobody said anything; I doubt he was even old enough to have any sense of who they were or what they did.

But overall, the atmosphere felt a little, well, deflated. There seemed to be more participants than observers. The majority of the people there were older folks who drove into the area, foreigners like myself who were morbidly curious, or part of the young, drunk crew that everyone else was wary of. Most of the local people on their way home from work just looked and kept going.

I understand why these marches are so contentious, and they seem to pop up at very inopportune times, but I also wonder if the "just don't look" approach would be the wisest way forward? If the historical point of these was to intimidate people, then the best way to deal with them would be to not be intimidated, but rather to go on with the mundane aspects of everyday life and let this kind of stuff die a quiet death over time. The hysteria provides oxygen to something that is barely on life support anyway.

KeithAFC

southsiderosie wrote: »

Haha, when I first moved to Belfast (in the month of June) pretty much everyone I met, including a lot of Eastern Europeans, told me that most "sensible" people either left, or stayed in their homes for the 11th and 12th. As there was a gigantic trash dump bonfire being assembled three blocks from my house, I went down to Dublin for the "main event", where I was surrounded by Nordy accents at Grogan's.

Over the course of June and July, three OO parades went through my area (Ballynafeigh). At one, there was lots of open alcohol consumption, and at one point a cop yelled at them, laughing "Can you be a little less obvious?". Another very young guy trotted by with a UVF flag in his backpack and nobody said anything; I doubt he was even old enough to have any sense of who they were or what they did.

But overall, the atmosphere felt a little, well, deflated. There seemed to be more participants than observers. The majority of the people there were older folks who drove into the area, foreigners like myself who were morbidly curious, or part of the young, drunk crew that everyone else was wary of. Most of the local people on their way home from work just looked and kept going.

I understand why these marches are so contentious, and they seem to pop up at very inopportune times, but I also wonder if the "just don't look" approach would be the wisest way forward? If the historical point of these was to intimidate people, then the best way to deal with them would be to not be intimidated, but rather to go on with the mundane aspects of everyday life and let this kind of stuff die a quiet death over time. The hysteria provides oxygen to something that is barely on life support anyway.

For one example like that, i could give 20-30 examples of when lots of people come out. Take the 13th for example, Scarva parade is immense. So many people come out.

And what about the UVF flag? See Irish republicans with IRA and shouting up the RA all the time.

Bottle_of_Smoke

KeithAFC wrote: »

And what about the UVF flag? See Irish republicans with IRA and shouting up the RA all the time.

Its nowhere near comparable.

You'll occasionally see some moron at a celtic game with IRA written on a flag but thats about the extent of it.

On the other hand you see UDA/UVF flags flying on poles in mixed areas all over the place.

There's a complete double standard about flags in NI