Pinarello Dogma on Ebay

kilns

Has anyone dealt with these over Ebay.

I know its not a real deal Dogma but it looks quite good and nice price too

http://cgi.ebay.ie/Full-Carbon-Fiber-Road-Racing-Bike-Frame-Fork-50-56-/150590257574?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&var=&hash=item68c7769d12

Lumen

kilns wrote: »

I know its not a real deal Dogma

How do you know this?

kilns

just a hunch:D

velo.2010

Looks like they went out of their way to produce a more credible copy instead of the ususal 'clearly a copy' efforts from the Far East.

Contact them, see how quickly they respond. Maybe say something like 'Apologies if incorrect but I take it, from the price quoted, that this is a high quality copy of the original'. Their response to that will guide you in your dealings with them- whether or not your comfortable to go with them on this frameset.

studiorat

is it not odd that that is the only frame they are selling?

petethedrummer

I wouldn't bother myself. You're not getting a €3000 frame for €500, you're getting a copy of a €3000 frame for €500.

If it's performance you want, you should go for the best €500 frame you can buy. If its looks, then go for this one. People have bought unbranded chinese carbon frames on here and been very happy. Maybe you should look into one of those.

Oh and if it's genuine, I'd jump at it.

anoble66

not a hope of it being an original frame - look at the sellers business name:-

Business seller information
OEM CARBON LTD

briano

All of the buyers feedback, while positive, is related to Sailing Clothes. I scanned back to 08 and no bike related stuff caught my eye.

studiorat

nice looking frame though isn't it.

SomeFool

studiorat wrote: »

nice looking frame though isn't it.

Just me maybe but I can't stand the forks!

blorg

briano wrote: »

All of the buyers feedback, while positive, is related to Sailing Clothes. I scanned back to 08 and no bike related stuff caught my eye.

Last feedback was back in October, on the sailing stuff.

He changed ID:

carbonxsports 28-Dec-10 Present
sailing_hk 13-Feb-08 28-Dec-10
mr_hing 25-Dec-07 13-Feb-08

Could be legit (in the sense of you will get your copy Pinarello)... he's not entirely holding the thing out as a Pinarello in the sense that the title doesn't scream it, so it doesn't come across as 100% scam. He has other stuff which seems reasonably priced rather than ridiculously cheap. But I'd be a bit wary... it looks basically like a new account. Maybe Mr Hing has gone from the sailing stuff to carbon bike stuff (it's all boxes to these guys), or maybe he sold on the eBay account to someone else. I'd treat it like a new account with no sales/feedback personally.

ashleey

Whether it's a replica or not or a scam or not would you be happy on a fast descent? If not don't get it.

spyderski

Doubt its a scam. You can be sure Pinarello are getting the "real thing" made in Taiwan for less than the price this guy is asking, so why should it not be good quality?
I would be more sceptical about the quality of the paint finish compared to the real thing, than anything else. AFAIK the genuine ones are painted in Italy, and that diamond paint finish would look really crap if done badly.
Customs charges would also be an issue to consider.

ashleey

I know they are all made in Taiwan anyway but how do you know that these aren't the ones that failed quality control or something?

spyderski

You are taking a chance on that alright, but its unlikely he has a full range of sizes in 2 different colours on that basis.
Carbon moulds are very expensive to make, particularly in a shape as complicated as this. The carbon for the frames themselves is all laid up by hand, from the dearest to the cheapest. This would lead me to believe these come from a genuine Dogma mould, probably with a lower grade of Carbon Fibre that the original, and get an inferior paint finish.
This is just speculation, but if correct, would mean these would not necessarily be rubbish, or indeed dangerous. I'd definitely buy one if I could have a look first, or at least get some (lots of) high-res photos of an actual frame

Zorba

Does the frame come with a 5 yr warranty and if so who pays the shipping to Hong Kong if it does break ?

spyderski

For the one with the 5 yr warranty & great customer service you can get one in Cyclesuperstore for only €3,000 more!!!!
(or you could just buy 3 of these & throw them away if they break - You'd still be €2k better off!)

Look, I'm not saying these are the bargain of the century, or that they're the real thing at a cheaper price, but they are definitely worth considering.

Zorba

spyderski wrote: »

For the one with the 5 yr warranty & great customer service you can get one in Cyclesuperstore for only €3,000 more!!!!
(or you could just buy 3 of these & throw them away if they break - You'd still be €2k better off!)

Look, I'm not saying these are the bargain of the century, or that they're the real thing at a cheaper price, but they are definitely worth considering.

LOL yes i know what your saying alright, you'd have to wonder how they'd handle though, we know they'd never handle like the real thing but you'd wonder how comfortable and responsive they'd be ?

el tel

the fact that there's a debate about it says it all really.

When in doubt, there's no doubt

ashleey

I think the whole point with any machine is that you don't want it to break when you're doing 65km/h wether it cost 3k or 500. eBay is for brave souls

spyderski

OK! Lets say you buy a real Dogma. After 3 months the forks break on a descent & you get broken up into sh**. How do you prove whether its a manufacturing fault or thru previous damage? And would you have the energy & funds to pursue it in the courts?
The bottom line is that undamaged carbon frames don't tend to fail dramatically, even the cheap ones. Why would these? Just cos they're cheap doesn't mean they're crap.
Years of Italian heritage, lavish ad campaigns & multiple pro team sponsorships don't automatically make a better quality frame coming from Taiwan, just a dearer one.

ashleey

I totally agree with you and let's face it with a lot of modern goods we are paying for a name. However, you don't want to be holding back due to nerves about the strength of your frame, car or whatever. Isn't that the point?

spyderski

Well, I'm waiting for a response from the seller. if his answers stack up I'm buying one, so I guess we'll see then. At worst it will look well hanging on the wall......

spyderski

Just to outline my way of thinking....I had a nice Planet X SL pro Carbon. Nothing wrong with it except the brand perception. Being a bit of a brand snob/ fool I swapped out the frame for a Specialized S-works. The spesh is certainly more comfortable and handles a bit better, but is no lighter or stiffer than the PX. Both frames are carbon. Both made in taiwan. But one cost €500, the other €2,500. Whats the difference in the cost of manufacture? Shag all I bet.

Hail 2 Da Thief

spyderski wrote: »

Well, I'm waiting for a response from the seller. if his answers stack up I'm buying one, so I guess we'll see then. At worst it will look well hanging on the wall......

Keep us posted! It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on the frame should you go ahead & build a bike using one of them!

ashleey

spyderski wrote: »

Just to outline my way of thinking....I had a nice Planet X SL pro Carbon. Nothing wrong with it except the brand perception. Being a bit of a brand snob/ fool I swapped out the frame for a Specialized S-works. The spesh is certainly more comfortable and handles a bit better, but is no lighter or stiffer than the PX. Both frames are carbon. Both made in taiwan. But one cost €500, the other €2,500. Whats the difference in the cost of manufacture? Shag all I bet.

Agreed but both are sold by a proper firm and not by a far off man listing one eBay. It's basically a car boot sale

Lemag

Hail 2 Da Thief wrote: »

Keep us posted! It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on the frame should you go ahead & build a bike using one of them!

ashleey wrote: »

Agreed but both are sold by a proper firm and not by a far off man listing one eBay. It's basically a car boot sale

I'm always happy for someone else to take the plunge

_sheep

I keep looking at that ebay listing and saying to myself that maybe... just maybe it would be fine... Then I get an image of it failing spectacularly on a decent and the money saved going on new teeth. Interested to hear reports in a few weeks if anyone buys one though.

kilns

I contacted them and they responded.

I asked them for all the measurement details and if they have it in anyother colours.

They have in other colours they said and are emailing me the options plus the measurement specs

A previous poster was correct. These days all you pay extra for is the name. Its like generic goods in a supermarket, alot of the time it's made by the same supplier of a brand name but because it doesnt have the label there isnt as much confidence and hence cheaper

C3PO

spyderski wrote: »

Years of Italian heritage, lavish ad campaigns & multiple pro team sponsorships don't automatically make a better quality frame coming from Taiwan, just a dearer one.

No of course they don't but they should ensure that the frame you buy is "fit for purpose"! Personally I wouldn't touch a "knock off" Pinarello frame with a bargepole but would have no problem buying a Planet X! If somebody is happy to rip off Pinarello's designs and brand why would they not also be happy to produce a poor quality (possibly dangerous) frame?
Personally I'm surprised that ebay let people auction "rip off" products!

amjon.

Is this not illegal?

_sheep

I asked the seller if I was to stand it next to my friends dogma frame what differences would I notice - he tells me its 100% identical in manufacture, geometry and paintwork. But I guess they would tell you that anyway...

Lumen

If I wanted a Pinarello-shaped bike I'd buy one.

ashleey

The Chinese have perfected the business model of taking some desirable (in the west) good and then refining and mass producing it at way cheaper prices due to lower production costs, a false exchange rate and labour exploitation in many cases. Sometimes it works well and sometimes they are just low quality rip offs. You take a chance. Posted from my iPhone, made in china, at the cost of the lives and health of many employees. Let's face it hypocrisy never obstructed international trade. More oil from Libya anyone?

Zorba

spyderski wrote: »

Just to outline my way of thinking....I had a nice Planet X SL pro Carbon. Nothing wrong with it except the brand perception. Being a bit of a brand snob/ fool I swapped out the frame for a Specialized S-works. The spesh is certainly more comfortable and handles a bit better, but is no lighter or stiffer than the PX. Both frames are carbon. Both made in taiwan. But one cost €500, the other €2,500. Whats the difference in the cost of manufacture? Shag all I bet.

Specialized frames come with a lifetime warranty.

A friend of mind hit a pothole on his 4 yr old frame and damaged it around the headset, he got a new frame in exchange no questions asked cos of the 5 yr warranty.

Personally i wouldn't buy a frame from China off ebay but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, it's just me.

If u do go ahead a buy it i wish u many miles of cycling happiness, also let us know what it's like to ride.

kilns

Just got a email back with the geometry and the different styles they have.

I cant copy and paste for some reason

But they have a few different colours form

Red/Black/Silver
Red/Yellow (looks like a Spanish champs bike)
Green/Black/Silver
Blue/White/Black

They all look quite good but who knows in the flesh

petethedrummer

spyderski wrote: »

Being a bit of a brand snob/ fool

So you'll be happy when someone starts questioning you on how much you paid for and where you got your lovely new frame? Will you try to pass it off as genuine, risk some bike nerd noticing and the ensuing embarassment or come clean from the word go on it being a copy?

Neither seems a great scenario for a brand snob.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

So you'll be happy when someone starts questioning you on how much you paid for and where you got your lovely new frame? Will you try to pass it off as genuine, risk some bike nerd noticing and the ensuing embarassment or come clean from the word go on it being a copy?

Neither seems a great scenario for a brand snob.

I know one person with an "unofficial" Pinarello. He's very happy with it, and it looks great. He freely admits he didn't pay full whack, but is equally happy to ride around on a nice looking bike.

Total strangers don't tend to enquire about costs.

petethedrummer

He's obviously not a brand snob. Neither am I by the way, I just fail to see why anyone would buy one of these without a first hand review from previous purchaser. It's not a Pinarello, noone has ridden one and looking nice on its own is no justification (IMO).

It will probably be fine and maybe its worth a €560 punt to someone with €560 to spare. But if you have €560 to spare surely you can muster up €1000 to buy a good frame from reliable origins?

fat bloke

I'd have no interest in buying something like that I must say. Not when you're no real guarantee of it's quality or provenance. Copies of that sort are primarily designed to look like the original, and not necessarily to perform like it. If you want a good value, decent quality carbon frame there are loads of choices out there.

Heinz beans for 1.49 a tin: fine
Aldi "Bohnen mit yummy sauce" for 39 cent a tin: fine.

Ya pays your money etc.

But why anyone would buy homemade mystery beans posing as "Heinz" from some guy with a colour label printer, I can't understand.:)

blorg

amjon. wrote: »

Is this not illegal?

Not in China! (in any meaningful or enforced way.)

Here, probably, but the chances of your getting caught would have to be minimal.

In France, importing one would be a criminal offence with potential jail time.

10kdays

The real bike frame weighs 950g according to the pinarello site. The ebay seller lists his as weighing 1250g. So either the ebay seller is incorrect, or his might be stronger, no? Please keep us updated if anyone goes ahead.

Lumen

10kdays wrote: »

The real bike frame weighs 950g according to the pinarello site. The ebay seller lists his as weighing 1250g. So either the ebay seller is incorrect, or his might be stronger, no? Please keep us updated if anyone goes ahead.

Or Pinarello lie. But that would never happen.

DirkVoodoo

At the end of the day, it's not a real Pinarello. Still not as bad as the MR2 to 355 kits:



Disgusting!

Zorba

Someone should give the ebay seller a link to this discussion, i'm sure he/she'd be delighted with all the free publicity !

kilns

Has anyone on the site every bought any carbon frame from China, would be great to hear how they find it and how it looks...

ednwireland

kilns wrote: »

Has anyone on the site every bought any carbon frame from China, would be great to hear how they find it and how it looks...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71665049

fat bloke

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

At the end of the day, it's not a real Pinarello. Still not as bad as the MR2 to 355 kits:



Disgusting!

Well. I take your point, and kit cars are always going to marmite-on-toasty. But at least with that you know that the MR2 is a good car. You know SOMEthing behind the engineering quality that went into it.

You can't say that about the not-a-pinarello

velo.2010

kilns wrote: »

Has anyone on the site every bought any carbon frame from China, would be great to hear how they find it and how it looks...

No, but have held in my hands an eXotic frameset from these guys http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/bikefridge. They go under a range of different names (Let you work that one out) such as OBE, Discobrakes, CarbonCycles.cc etc.

Top quality frameset, lightweight and well crafted. Nice lacquered finish. Still a Far East copy I guess, but looks a better frameset than the yokes that go for e200-e300.

gman2k

kilns wrote: »

Has anyone on the site every bought any carbon frame from China, would be great to hear how they find it and how it looks...

Yeah, bought a carbon fibre moutain bike frame (hardtail) from Archteks on Alibaba, everything was smooth as regards transaction. I got a seatpost and bar stem combo. The seatpost head was rubbish, but everything else was perfect.
The bike is still going fine, and has taken lots of abuse, much more than any road bike will, and is still in 1 piece!

gman2k

Check out the quality of the real Pinarello
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71705666&postcount=24