Gardaí want 'mollycoddled' Reserve abolished

petroltimer

"Members of the GRA said full-time gardaí have been 'babysitting' the part-time reservists, who have to be 'mollycoddled' and looked after by 'real' gardaí."

The arrogant Gardai at its best, this was no more than intimidation of the Garda Reserve. How difficult does this now make Garda Reserve members to their job with the increased hostility this is bound to cause from the full time Garda...

If the new minister for justice had any balls he should tell the GRA to get stuffed its not there call on the Garda Reserve,

HarryPotter41

petroltimer wrote: »

"Members of the GRA said full-time gardaí have been 'babysitting' the part-time reservists, who have to be 'mollycoddled' and looked after by 'real' gardaí."

The arrogant Gardai at its best, this was no more than intimidation of the Garda Reserve. How difficult does this now make Garda Reserve members to their job with the increased hostility this is bound to cause from the full time Garda...

If the new minister for justice had any balls he should tell the GRA to get stuffed its not there call on the Garda Reserve,

But are they right to the the extent that if a full time Garda is on duty with a reserve and a dificult situation arises with no back up immediately available that the full time Garda is in a much more dangerous situation due to the limited powers and training of the reserve?

petroltimer

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

But are they right to the the extent that if a full time Garda is on duty with a reserve and a dificult situation arises with no back up immediately available that the full time Garda is in a much more dangerous situation due to the limited powers and training of the reserve?

oh i'm not saying they are wrong on the usefulness of the garda reserve its just the way they have gone about it, its not the guys in the garda reserves fault they are just carrying out their duties, they don't need to have that kind of hassle from the GRA

HarryPotter41

petroltimer wrote: »

oh i'm not saying they are wrong on the usefulness of the garda reserve its just the way they have gone about it, its not the guys in the garda reserves fault they are just carrying out their duties, they don't need to have that kind of hassle from the GRA

Its a forum for Gardai to debate, where else can they debate the usefulness ( or not ) of the reserve?

Dannyboy83

I don't know enough about them, but it seems if there are complaints about the Garda Reserve, it must arise out of the way they are managed, rather than the actual members of the reserve.

i.e. they're pointing the finger in the wrong direction

HarryPotter41

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't know enough about them, but it seems if there are complaints about the Garda Reserve, it must arise out of the way they are managed, rather than the actual members of the reserve.

i.e. they're pointing the finger in the wrong direction

There is not much to manage, they have extremely limited powers and must at all times acommpany a full member of AGS. The issue of the GRA seems to be the necessity to then have to babysit the reserve in situations where a fulltime meber would be needed.

KIERAN61

Bashing the Garda Reserve is a bit old hat now. I think it's time to change the record GRA. The commissioner has stated that it is here to stay so lets all move on. If anything there is now more of a physical presence on the street than ever there was especally at the weekends. Here to fore ,two full time Gardai went on the beat together now they go with a Reserve that makes four extra bodies.I have experienced many occasions when full time members were only too glad to have us assist. Indeed i know of one where the Reserve made the arrest because the full timers were not able to phyically apprehend a suspect. Full time Gardai have always done baby sitting to some extent because Garda students have absolutely no powers whatsoever. I rest my case.

later12

Of course the GRA are opposed to them - the GRA are a public sector union whose own membership are facing cutbacks, and they would rather see these cutback go the direction of the part time (reserve) staff.

I say we take the same approach to them as we would to other public sector unions coming out with transparent and self interested criticisms of this sort: ignore them.

Wolfe Tone

Thats hardly fair on the reserves who do what they do for free.

Nodin

I've never seen the point of the reserve, so am with the Gardai on this one. They've no powers, need to have a garda with them, and haven't the same training. Pointless exercise.

later12

Nodin wrote: »

I've never seen the point of the reserve, so am with the Gardai on this one. They've no powers, need to have a garda with them, and haven't the same training. Pointless exercise.

Really? Don't you look at regular, full time, arguably well trained and relatively well paid gardai patrolling the streets or standing at concert and sports venues, and think what a waste that is? And wouldn't it sometimes be better to replace them with people willing to do these somewhat menial duties for free?

Nodin

later10 wrote: »

Really? Don't you look at regular, full time, arguably well trained and relatively well paid gardai patrolling the streets or standing at concert and sports venues, and think what a waste that is? And wouldn't it sometimes be better to replace them with people willing to do these somewhat menial duties for free?

They can't be there on their own, and lacking powers and training are an impediment to a full member of the force. More millstone than sandbag, imo.

later12

Nodin wrote: »

They can't be there on their own, and lacking powers and training are an impediment to a full member of the force. More millstone than sandbag, imo.

Yes the training could certainly do with a bit of an improvement by the looks of it - apparently you can become a reservist with effectively one week's worth of training, so I have no doubt that Gardai do take issue with their efficacy.

Nevertheless, it seems counter-intuitive to turn away public sector workers who are willing to work for free right now.

petroltimer

Nodin wrote: »

I've never seen the point of the reserve, so am with the Gardai on this one. They've no powers, need to have a garda with them, and haven't the same training. Pointless exercise.

you've got it back to front, you're making it sound like they are having to pull Gardai of other duties to look after a garda reserve. The garda reserve goes with the garda, they can only be a help as far as i can see, an extra body on the ground.
When i started this tread i did not realise that these people did for free, this to me seems extraordinary commitment on their part and they should be commended not undermined by the GRA

Nodin

later10 wrote: »

Yes the training could certainly do with a bit of an improvement by the looks of it - apparently you can become a reservist with effectively one week's worth of training, so I have no doubt that Gardai do take issue with their efficacy.

Nevertheless, it seems counter-intuitive to turn away public sector workers who are willing to work for free right now.

...if there were non-patrol duties they could be assigned to, it would make more sense.

However in situations where theres a risk of physical violence, people acting as part of a team need a certain trust in who they're with, and not only their training but their willingness to do what has to be done. While 18 months in Templemore is no guarantee that every Garda will display those qualities, it does act as a vetting process to weed out those that lack them to whatever extent possible.

Nodin

petroltimer wrote: »

you've got it back to front, you're making it sound like they are having to pull Gardai of other duties to look after a garda reserve.

No, I'm saying they can't operate independently, lack training, and thus would act as an impediment on the garda.

later12

Nodin wrote: »

...if there were non-patrol duties they could be assigned to, it would make more sense.

Well they do perform station duties apparently, I have no idea whether that entails making coffee or dealing with the public but their duties do go beyond patrol.

However in situations where theres a risk of physical violence, people acting as part of a team need a certain trust in who they're with, and not only their training but their willingness to do what has to be done.

Yes but take for example patrolling the streets, they don't actually intervene, they contact the gardai. The point is that they act as a sort of neighbourhood watch.
The same thing for crowd control at matches or gatherings. They don't make arrests of course, but they do stand there and try to appear authoritative in directing crowds (I'm being slightly unfair possibly) for a lot less money than a Garda will to do the same thing - in fact, for free.

munster4868

Nodin wrote: »

...if there were non-patrol duties they could be assigned to, it would make more sense.

However in situations where theres a risk of physical violence, people acting as part of a team need a certain trust in who they're with, and not only their training but their willingness to do what has to be done. While 18 months in Templemore is no guarantee that every Garda will display those qualities, it does act as a vetting process to weed out those that lack them to whatever extent possible.

Leaving aside the points you raised in your posts... the comments made by members of the G.R.A. regarding the Garda Reserve are in a few words "nasty", "unfair", "ill-founded", "petty". They must Remember one thing, these Reserve's are members of the community that the pronounce to serve!!! These reserve's are volunteer's, giving their time FREE, placing their person in harms way to serve the community. I do believe that their opinion isn't the majority view of the Regular force. I have on a good few occasions helped out my Full-Time member I was on duty with by "getting Stuck in" when the you know what hits the fan, and if I wasn't there God only knows what would have been the outcome on those occasions for the Full-Time member as they would have been on their own!!! Given my skills and experience I bring to the force (from my personal life) that led to me been able to help out quite well on those occasions I would never after the fact make my full time colleague feel sub-standard because of their lack of physical strength or ability. We are when on duty a team and to that team everybody brings difference qualities. All I can say about the comments made by those G.R.A. members is Shame on you. I know respect has to be earned but disrespect to the Reserve's isn't a right. Reserve's now after these statements will have to contend with the slagging and the whispers that will follow by the usual jokers both in uniform and in our personal life!!! Not Good, Not Good.

Denerick

I didn't understand their utility in the beginning and still don't now. I assume most of the applicants for the Garda Reserve are irritating do-gooders, Christian types who think they 'can make a difference'. I'd rather they just stayed at home and attended to their horticulture tbh.

munster4868

Nodin wrote: »

No, I'm saying they can't operate independently, lack training, and thus would act as an impediment on the garda.

More training, More powers and better tutoring of the reserve maybe in order then, to ally those fairs of a certain minority of the regular force.
The reserve is here to stay as stated by the minister so maybe the G.R.A. should concentrate on protecting what their members have instead of these petty so called issues that can only lead to workplace dis-quite!

irishh_bob

later10 wrote: »

Of course the GRA are opposed to them - the GRA are a public sector union whose own membership are facing cutbacks, and they would rather see these cutback go the direction of the part time (reserve) staff.

I say we take the same approach to them as we would to other public sector unions coming out with transparent and self interested criticisms of this sort: ignore them.

more garda reserves = less overtime for an garda siochanna

irishh_bob

later10 wrote: »

Really? Don't you look at regular, full time, arguably well trained and relatively well paid gardai patrolling the streets or standing at concert and sports venues, and think what a waste that is? And wouldn't it sometimes be better to replace them with people willing to do these somewhat menial duties for free?

stamping passport applications is another one

munster4868

Denerick wrote: »

I didn't understand their utility in the beginning and still don't now. I assume most of the applicants for the Garda Reserve are irritating do-gooders, Christian types who think they 'can make a difference'. I'd rather they just stayed at home and attended to their horticulture tbh.

Well maybe if you read up about the reserve concept and talk to a few reserves than you can come back and post a more informative post, instead of what seems to me... a post that is well mis-informed by your lack of knowledge, I for one usually tend not to comment on things that I have no research done into. Unless I just want to stir things up a bit!!

munster4868

irishh_bob wrote: »

more garda reserves = less overtime for an garda siochanna

25 million in overtime and all leave cancelled for the month of may... "overtime an issue"... I don't think so....;)

Turner

irishh_bob wrote: »

stamping passport applications is another one

Garda reserves cannot stamp passports.

munster4868

Chief--- wrote: »

Garda reserves cannot stamp passports.

Sorry.. they can. when the reserve came in at the start they couldn't but a year later that was amended.

Nodin

munster4868 wrote: »

More training, More powers and better tutoring of the reserve maybe in order then, to ally those fairs of a certain minority of the regular force.
............

No offence to you personally, but they voted unanimously on the issue....
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0412/garda.html
..which would suggest that - for whatever reason - they aren't happy with the current setup.

munster4868

Nodin wrote: »

No offence to you personally, but they voted unanimously on the issue....
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0412/garda.html
..which would suggest that - for whatever reason - they aren't happy with the current setup.

None taken... But was the vote taken a ballet of the overall membership not of the GRA but of AGS... I think as my relative was up their at it the vote was taken by those attending the conference... Maybe, not a true representation of AGS.. Only my opinion tbh

irishh_bob

Chief--- wrote: »

Garda reserves cannot stamp passports.

yes but they should be able , a trained chimp could do it

munster4868

irishh_bob wrote: »

yes but they should be able , a trained chimp could do it

A babysitted chimp even.:D

Manic Moran

As a reserve soldier, I'm trying to imagine the concept of an army reservist who isn't allowed to shoot anyone even if there's a member of the regular Army standing next to him. This would strike me as the reservist being nothing more than a decoy and as an utter waste of time and uniform allowance. i.e. Not worthy of the term 'reserve'. A reservist is a reserve, capable of doing the exact same job as the front line force he's augmenting.

Reservists allow you to save money in that they don't need full time pay, usually not the benefits post-retirement.
However, in the field, they are held to the exact same standards as the full-time counterparts. An enemy soldier isn't going to look at the unit insignia and go easy on me because I'm a reservist, and I strongly doubt a criminal is going to look at a Garda reservist and go easy on him either. (Indeed, he may just mock him more).

The government needs to figure out if these guys are reservists or aides, train them appropriately, and assign them appropriately. If they're going to go on patrol with regular Gardai, they need to be trained to something approximating a similar standard. If they're aides, then don't spend the money and effort, and assign them to do nothing more than stand on a street corner with a radio, observe and report.

Either system can work. But it seems to me that they're trying to do things on the cheap.

NTM

kerry4sam

irishh_bob wrote: »

stamping passport applications is another one

Chief--- wrote: »

Garda reserves cannot stamp passports.

munster4868 wrote: »

Sorry.. they can. when the reserve came in at the start they couldn't but a year later that was amended.

It turns out that some stations allow reserves stamp passports whereas others actually don't.

irishh_bob wrote: »

stamping passport applications is another one

Chief--- wrote: »

Garda reserves cannot stamp passports.

irishh_bob wrote: »

yes but they should be able , a trained chimp could do it

To be honest, this kind of attitude is one I love to encounter. You irishh_bob, I take it are not either in the process of applying for the Reserves, nor in training nor attested for that matter like munster4868 here. The passport form is actually a form of importance as it allows for the movement of a person outside of this State and enter and pass through other countries. Due care and attention is required, although it might seem like a minute matter to some, stamping and signing a passport, their is big importance attached to it.

If you have seen a trained chimp stamp one, please do let me know where, I'll be along with my camera!

irishh_bob

kerry4sam wrote: »

It turns out that some stations allow reserves stamp passports whereas others actually don't.







To be honest, this kind of attitude is one I love to encounter. You irishh_bob, I take it are not either in the process of applying for the Reserves, nor in training nor attested for that matter like munster4868 here. The passport form is actually a form of importance as it allows for the movement of a person outside of this State and enter and pass through other countries. Due care and attention is required, although it might seem like a minute matter to some, stamping and signing a passport, their is big importance attached to it.

If you have seen a trained chimp stamp one, please do let me know where, I'll be along with my camera!

if its so important , how come the dept of foreign affairs where the passport applications are processed , is not staffed with guards , a guard stamping a passport application is a mere administrative duty more akin to what any civil servant would oversee , anyone with proper eye sight could do it and none of your garda HQ press office reply, guards need to be out on the street tackling crime instead of dealing with beauracratical inanitys

munster4868

I would hope soon that all these issues surrounding what and what not a reserve can do will be made clear to the full time force. The fact of the matter is that a Reserve can sign these forms and if a station doesn't allow a reserve to carry out this function well then it should be brought to the attention of the Reserve garda liaison inspector and get it sorted. There are plenty of other things that a reserve can do but again differs from station to station, that subject is for another day.

munster4868

irishh_bob wrote: »

if its so important , how come the dept of foreign affairs where the passport applications are processed , is not staffed with guards , a guard stamping a passport application is a mere administrative duty more akin to what any civil servant would oversee , anyone with proper eye sight could do it and none of your , HQ press office reply, guards need to be out on the street tackling crime instead of dealing with beauracratical inanitys

Well, I must agree with you... But signing a passport form was only a comment brought up by you in a previous post, maybe in jest... So really having a conversation about this procedure is pointless... So, we will just have to wait just that bit longer to see that chimp you wrote about!:cool:

kerry4sam

Denerick wrote: »

I didn't understand their utility in the beginning and still don't now. I assume most of the applicants for the Garda Reserve are irritating do-gooders, Christian types who think they 'can make a difference'. I'd rather they just stayed at home and attended to their horticulture tbh.

That would not actually be a fair assumption. Some do seem to be in the reserves for the wrong reasons but the vast majority are just honest-to-God hard workers from the community, know who is who and what is what and only want the best and assist the full-time Gardaí from the area they are assigned to (which would be near their home-town).

Some are there to gain experience before being in a position to apply for the full-time guards so when successful, would have a vast amount seen and experienced, and would be able to progress faster then as a result.

You should try not to tar all of the Garda Reserves with the same brush though and take each as they come until you experience first-hand otherwise.

Manic Moran

kerry4sam wrote: »

That would not actually be a fair assumption. Some do seem to be in the reserves for the wrong reasons but the vast majority are just honest-to-God hard workers from the community, know who is who and what is what and only want the best and assist the full-time Gardaí from the area they are assigned to (which would be near their home-town).

Maybe they've been listening to Robert.

"The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

NTM

MagicSean

irishh_bob wrote: »

if its so important , how come the dept of foreign affairs where the passport applications are processed , is not staffed with guards , a guard stamping a passport application is a mere administrative duty more akin to what any civil servant would oversee , anyone with proper eye sight could do it and none of your garda HQ press office reply, guards need to be out on the street tackling crime instead of dealing with beauracratical inanitys

Do you even know why they sign and stamp it? It is to confirm your identity and your likeness to the photo and to take responsibility for this confirmation and log it. The passport office just processes it.

Padraig Mor

Surely this:

petroltimer wrote: »

these people did for free, this to me seems extraordinary commitment on their part

answers this:

Nodin wrote: »

people acting as part of a team need a certain trust in ...their willingness to do what has to be done..

More generally, it's well recognised that the GRA is quite a nauseous organisation that is, quite frankly, full of ****.

ZoneAlarm

This is my personal opinion on this, but from what i can see now, the former Commissioner and the new Commissioner are all in favor of the Garda Reserves, so was the last 2 former Ministers of Justice and im sure Mr Shatter is also behind them, do the GRA not think its time to stop "BEATING" the Garda Reserves with a stick, every time they have a conference its the same old old, we want to abolish the reserves blah blah, seems like they are now trying to row in behind the sinn fein remarks a while back.

I think its about time that the GRA except they are "NOT" going to be abolished, and get on with trying to find a way to work with them, i know this is all a saving face game with them, but i do think the time has come to except this.

If the Commissioner and the Ministers past and present can except it cant see why the GRA cant, as per the article below, and at the end of the day i dont think any full time member cares if its reserve or not is another pair of hands at the end of the day, remember the reserve member is also risking their lives and limbs same as the full time member, when a row breaks out the people involved dont go, ohhhh wait he is a reserve leave him / she alone, they see members in uniforms nothing more.

Also my opinion if Reserves are willing to risk their lives or limbs for other members, and some are prob members of the GRA, do you not think you the GRA should show some sort of respect for these people, im sure full time members have been in trick situations and the reserve member was there to get stuck in, do you think the full time member cares if he / she is a reserve i would very much doubt it.

At the end of the day everyone knows the GRA where never in favor of the Reserves, and is only trying to save face as to try and get rid of them, lets all work together, after all, we are all striving towards the same goal, and on the same side.


Garda chief defends reserve force

on 13/04/2011 08:54:14


Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan has defended his reserve force after demands from rank-and-file officers for its abolition.

The police chief insisted there was a "groundswell" of support for the reservists despite claims by full-timers that they were "baby-sitting" and "mollycoddling" the part-timers.

"I'm very much supportive of the Garda Reserve," said Mr Callinan.

"It's not there as a threat to sworn members of the force, who enjoy my absolute confidence. They are there to assist."

Dismissing remarks made at the Garda Representative Association (GRA) annual conference, Mr Callinan said the relationship between the reserves and the full-timers was going well.

"They have a limited role to play and they're doing a very, very fine job," he added.

The GRA voted unanimously to seek the abolition of the Garda Reserve during its conference in Westport, Co Mayo.

Officers complained that the unpaid part-timers were costing up to €4m a year, which they said could be spent on recruiting more than 100 new full-timers.

The Garda Reserve was set up in 2005.

It is expected to reach its target of 1,400 recruits - a 10th of the size of the full-time force - by next year.


Its the only thing the GRA can beat the Gov with ignore them, just as the commissioner has said to them, reserves are here to stay get used to it.


http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/SP11000042


Address by Mr Alan Shatter TD, Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, to the, 2011 Annual Conference of the Garda Representative Association - Wednesday 13 April 2011, At 2.30 p.m.

Nice of Minister Shatter to defend the Garda Reserve as from this its here to stay

I was disappointed to read some comments made at your conference about the Garda Reserve and of your vote calling for its abolition. It is clear that those involved in the Reserve are genuinely committed to helping local communities. The truth is that they are selflessly giving their free time to support the Garda Síochána in its work. I would have hoped that such voluntary, communal and committed support for the Garda Síochána would have been welcomed by members of the force. What originally was the FCA and is now the Army Reserve is unequivocally valued as a key component of our Defence forces. Our part time soldiers participate in training operations and are treated with respect by members of the Defence forces. A similar respect and welcome should be given by members of An Garda Síochána to members of the Garda Reserve. Of course members of the GRA at this conference are fully entitled to express their views on issues of concern to them but I regard the vote on this issue at this conference as not merely unfortunate but as also counter productive. It has the potential to sour relations between members of the Garda Síochána and Garda Reserve and to discourage the community volunteerism that serves the public interest and is in the interest of the force generally.

irishh_bob

k_mac wrote: »

Do you even know why they sign and stamp it? It is to confirm your identity and your likeness to the photo and to take responsibility for this confirmation and log it. The passport office just processes it.

you dont say :rolleyes:

has it occurred to you that in order to successfully recognise someone , its not nescessery to complete a three year training programme in templemore

munster4868

irishh_bob wrote: »

you dont say :rolleyes:

has it occurred to you that in order to successfully recognise someone , its not nescessery to complete a three year training programme in templemore

It's 14 months only....
But anyhow, I think people are loosing the point a bit... If you need a form signed you go to a PC or Garda... why??? It's is because the law states so... If you have any Tom dick or harry signing state forms then you lose control and mis-takes can and will happen.

later12

munster4868 wrote: »

It's 14 months only....
But anyhow, I think people are loosing the point a bit... If you need a form signed you go to a PC or Garda... why??? It's is because the law states so... If you have any Tom dick or harry signing state forms then you lose control and mis-takes can and will happen.

The thing is, if Tom Dick or Harry's trustworthiness can be easily established, it might be as well to put them on dog license duties while Thomas, Richard or Henry get on with the more serious issue of criminal law enforcement.

munster4868

later10 wrote: »

The thing is, if Tom Dick or Harry's trustworthiness can be easily established, it might be as well to put them on dog license duties while Thomas, Richard or Henry get on with the more serious issue of criminal law enforcement.

Who's Thomas, Richard or Henry... Never met them. :eek:

ZoneAlarm

munster4868 wrote: »

Who's Thomas, Richard or Henry... Never met them. :eek:

They must be in his station maybe

eddison

The title of this thread could also read something like...

''INSECURE GARDAI FEEL THREATENED BY RESERVE FORCE''

Get on with your f***ing job and stop complaining. The job we the public, your employers, are paying you to do.
Gardai complain they are understaffed, then say 'ah but we don't want any help????

Whats wrong with the Gardai, have they switched shampoo or something?

angry about stupid rape jokes..

ZoneAlarm

mmm dont think you pay my wages sunshine !!

who took your packet of biscuits off you.

eddison

I have a wheat allergy so prefer rice cakes

Irish Fire

I don't blame members of AGS, to be fair if the reserve member does something wrong it's the member that he or she is with has to answer all the questions

Irish Fire

eddison wrote: »

The title of this thread could also read something like...

''INSECURE GARDAI FEEL THREATENED BY RESERVE FORCE''

Get on with your f***ing job and stop complaining. The job we the public, your employers, are paying you to do.
Gardai complain they are understaffed, then say 'ah but we don't want any help????

Whats wrong with the Gardai, have they switched shampoo or something?

angry about stupid rape jokes..

Since when do YOU pay the wages of a member of AGS??? Do members of AGS not pay tax as well?? So really members of AGS pay their OWN wages and the lazy gits on the scratcher as well. Get back under that rock.....

ZoneAlarm

And that could work both ways, the reserve get the blame as well for something else, at the end of the day you are supposed to work together as a team, for god sake if ya cant get that right whats the point, give up policing both of you.

We are not children at the end of the day, we are both are mature adults, by your post i would say if you could push reserves around in a pram you would.