Green diesel

hobbitt

Do members of AGS test vehicles for green diesel as I have seen done by UK police on Roadwars, or is this done only by Customs and Excise here?

I was a passanger in a car recently which pulled into an Applegreen services northbound on the M1, past Drogheada.

The Fuelling Island had 3 pump nozzles, slow diesel, fast diesel and green diesel. The driver prepaid at the pump with a laser card and then put e50 of green diesel in his bmw. He smirked and said "cars are never dipped."

Is this a Revenue offence, or a criminal offence?

goldie fish

It's a revenue offence, and all diesel vehicles are dipped.
BMWs are a favourite of the customs men(and women). I saw 3 being stopped in different locations in cork by customs and AGS in one day. Seems lots of the older ones are stolen/paired etc.

hobbitt

hobbitt wrote: »

Do members of AGS test vehicles for green diesel as I have seen done by UK police on Roadwars, or is this done only by Customs and Excise here?

I was a passanger in a car recently which pulled into an Applegreen services northbound on the M1, past Drogheada.

The Fuelling Island had 3 pump nozzles, slow diesel, fast diesel and green diesel. The driver prepaid at the pump with a laser card and then put e50 of green diesel in his bmw. He smirked and said "cars are never dipped."

Is this a Revenue offence, or a criminal offence?

Mixing up my fuels. Sorry.

wildefalcon

foreign wrote: »

He won't be smirking when he's replacing parts in his engine.

Why would he be replacing parts? Green Diesel is as good as clear, has to be as otherwise the tractors would give trouble - modern tractors are as advanced as cars, EURO emission compliant, common rail etc, etc.

Infact, you could say it is more reliable than clear diesel - as you can be sure it hasn't been "washed" in acid by some former terrorist across the border!

wildefalcon

wildefalcon wrote: »

Why would he be replacing parts? Green Diesel is as good as clear, has to be as otherwise the tractors would give trouble - modern tractors are as advanced as cars, EURO emission compliant, common rail etc, etc.

Infact, you could say it is more reliable than clear diesel - as you can be sure it hasn't been "washed" in acid by some former terrorist across the border!

You are correct. I was mixing up washed diesel with the green stuff. My bad.

Terrontress

hobbitt wrote: »

Do members of AGS test vehicles for green diesel as I have seen done by UK police on Roadwars, or is this done only by Customs and Excise here?

I was a passanger in a car recently which pulled into an Applegreen services northbound on the M1, past Drogheada.

The Fuelling Island had 3 pump nozzles, slow diesel, fast diesel and green diesel. The driver prepaid at the pump with a laser card and then put e50 of green diesel in his bmw. He smirked and said "cars are never dipped."

Is this a Revenue offence, or a criminal offence?

The punishment for driving on mgo far outweigh the benefits. The last time I saw mgo for sale it was around the 99c mark. Still not cheap. Factor in the risk of a 3k fine and I can't see why anyone would risk it.

belacqua_

Are northern diesel cars dipped? Likewise, are southern cars dipped for red diesel in the north?

goldie fish

belacqua_ wrote: »

Are northern diesel cars dipped? Likewise, are southern cars dipped for red diesel in the north?

If you drive on the road(and you aren't a tractor) your diesel should only be one colour, on either side of the line.

"White"(clean..er, clear, as in not washed. without colour.).

belacqua_

From the UK Parliament Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs:

1 Gas oil is essentially the same as diesel road fuel, but attracts a much lower rate of duty (see Ev. p. 22). To enable its ready identification, a prescribed chemical marker and a colour marker are added. It is from the colour of the dye that this product gets its colloquial names of 'red diesel' (United Kingdom) and 'green diesel' (Republic of Ireland). The use of either in the United Kingdom as road fuel is a criminal offence.

The cogs were turning, I thought there might have been a loophole.

Rovi

Slightly OT (sorry )

Why would a motorway service station be selling green diesel?
Even out here in the sticks, most service stations don't sell it; it just strikes me as odd that it would be available somewhere where the vast majority of its legal users couldn't get their vehicles to it.

pa990

I presume that they have "gas oil" / "agri diesel" / green etc on the continent as well.

What colour dye do they use in france or germany ?

No particular reason to know, but I'm just curious because we use green and the uk use red dye

goldie fish

Rovi wrote: »

Slightly OT (sorry )

Why would a motorway service station be selling green diesel?
Even out here in the sticks, most service stations don't sell it; it just strikes me as odd that it would be available somewhere where the vast majority of its legal users couldn't get their vehicles to it.

If you are in the agri contractor business, and you need to top up your bowser, a motorway S/S is as good a place to get it as any.

Leo Demidov

pa990 wrote: »

I presume that they have "gas oil" / "agri diesel" / green etc on the continent as well.

What colour dye do they use in france or germany ?

No particular reason to know, but I'm just curious because we use green and the uk use red dye

its to do with the predominant colours on a countrys national flag, simplest system they could devise.

pa990

wexfjord wrote: »

its to do with the predominant colours on a countrys national flag, simplest system they could devise.

so what colours are used in other countries

Leo Demidov

pa990 wrote: »

so what colours are used in other countries

it seems the germans use red and the french use blue.

i'll get you a more comprensive list if you like.
:pac:

hobbitt

Rovi wrote: »

Slightly OT (sorry )

Why would a motorway service station be selling green diesel?
Even out here in the sticks, most service stations don't sell it; it just strikes me as odd that it would be available somewhere where the vast majority of its legal users couldn't get their vehicles to it.

They are selling the green marked diesel for 89c per litre, and make approx 25c profit on it, compared to 4 cents profit on road diesel at e1.40 per litre. The previous vehicle using it had put in e250 of green diesel. Obviously a truck. The truck diesel fuelling bays are the farthest from the kiosk, and require a laser or credit card to prepay.

I was very surprised to see it on sale at a service station. I thought only people like farmers with their own tanks could get it for tractors etc.

hobbitt

wexfjord wrote: »

its to do with the predominant colours on a countrys national flag, simplest system they could devise.

afaik in France there is no rebated diesel, tractors, agri machinery and all motor vehicles pay the same for diesel.

hobbitt

Terrontress wrote: »

The punishment for driving on mgo far outweigh the benefits. The last time I saw mgo for sale it was around the 99c mark. Still not cheap. Factor in the risk of a 3k fine and I can't see why anyone would risk it.

This was a 2009 model 530d, not the vintage likely to be stopped and dipped!

Terrontress

It would appear that all diesel in the EU is marked in one way or the other and that the marking is not necessarily to do with the coulours on the flag of the country there.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dyes

meathstevie

hobbitt wrote: »

They are selling the green marked diesel for 89c per litre, and make approx 25c profit on it, compared to 4 cents profit on road diesel at e1.40 per litre. The previous vehicle using it had put in e250 of green diesel. Obviously a truck. The truck diesel fuelling bays are the farthest from the kiosk, and require a laser or credit card to prepay.

I was very surprised to see it on sale at a service station. I thought only people like farmers with their own tanks could get it for tractors etc.

Or a digger on the back of a trailer, don't always assume the worst case scenario.

The actual offence in Ireland is using and keeping the green or red diesel in the fuel tank of a motorvehicle. In essence it doesn't matter if the vehicle is being driven on the road or in a public place, once you have the wrong excise category of diesel in the tank anywhere you've committed the offence.

The major difference between North and South is the penalties. Often a first offence up North leads to impounding of the offending vehicle and release upon payment of £500 to customs.

Terrontress

meathstevie wrote: »

Or a digger on the back of a trailer, don't always assume the worst case scenario.

The actual offence in Ireland is using and keeping the green or red diesel in the fuel tank of a motorvehicle. In essence it doesn't matter if the vehicle is being driven on the road or in a public place, once you have the wrong excise category of diesel in the tank anywhere you've committed the offence.

The major difference between North and South is the penalties. Often a first offence up North leads to impounding of the offending vehicle and release upon payment of £500 to customs.

I saw Customs dipping for it on the RTE programme and it was done on the public road. If a vehicle were to be registered as off the road yet still driven e.g. for getting round a farm or even vehciles up at the airport which have no numberplate. Do you mean that they would be committing an offence by having mgo in the tank, even with no vrt, no road tax, no numberplate?

In the wiki article I posted above, they referred to people using dye in fuel to prevent theft. Does Irish legislation specifically mention green and red? It's interesting because red diesel comes from the north and the state would raise no duty on legit diesel from the north. And if I were to be dipped and had blue diesel in the tank, would the fact it was neither red nor green mean it is ok? I could say it is to make it easy to identify if it is stolen. Then again, other countries sell diesel marked blue at a lesser duty rate. Is it illegal to run mgo from a country other than the UK?

Finally, it is interesting to see that under EU law, all diesel is marked with a low intensity yellow.

goldie fish

Never trust wiki

Terrontress

goldie fish wrote: »

Never trust wiki

I trust it implicity.

Except for all those articles which I maliciously alter for my own amusement.

meathstevie

Unless I'm completely mistaken and I don't think I am in this case the offence is keeping and/or using the agri diesel in the tank of a motorvehicle for use in the combustion engine of a motorvehicle and the term motorvehicle means any vehicle made, intended or adapted for use on a road or a public place. That pretty much covers every car, van, lorry, truck, bus, coach etc.. . The likes of diggers, tractors, construction machinery etc would be mechanically propelled vehicles ( engine powered but not specifically designed, made or adapted for road use ) and would not be covered under the typical legislation referring to motorvehicles.

Tractors can be a bit tricky though; let's say a farmer who uses his massey to draw a trailer with 4 of his own bullocks to the mart for the weekly sale would fall under agricultural use and as a consequence can use green diesel for this activity. If the same farmer would hook up a flatbed trailer and transports another farmer's JCB 50 mile up the road and get's paid a couple of hundred quid could ultimately find himself in bother because that sort of activity is road haulage and requires clear diesel.

goldie fish

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0442.html

Fixing of permanent notice, etc. (Part 9).
37. A permanent, clearly legible, indelible notice shall be securely fixed, in a prominent position, to every overground vessel in which marked gas oil or marked kerosene, is stored and on every delivery pump or other outlet by which such marked gas oil or marked kerosene is delivered, and such notice shall state—

(a) in the case of marked gas oil, the following:

“It is an offence to keep marked gas oil in the fuel tank, or use it in the engine, of a motor vehicle.”,

and

(b) in the case of marked kerosene, the following:

“It is an offence to keep marked kerosene in the fuel tank, or use it in the engine, of a motor vehicle.”.

hobbitt

goldie fish wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0442.html

I was in an independent filling station in Carlow, which had a green diesel pump which was padlocked. The owner refused to sell green diesel for a car, saying that Customs would "crucify" him if he was caught.

The pump in applegreen was avialable to any sort of vehicle, no restrictions, just a laser/credit card to prepay. With a computerised system like this it should be possible for Customs and Excise to obtain bank details of all green diesel sales, and dip the appropriate tanks. It takes at least 10 to 25 fills of clean diesel to get the dye out of a fuel tank.

The saving for a motorist is approx 30 percent of fuel costs so a high mileage driver would easily save e5,000 per annum, makes the first offence fine of e3.000 worth risking.

hobbitt

Who is going to dip a Garda car?

Saving 30% of fuel costs by using green diesel would mean more money available for overtime, equiptment, faster diesel cars etc, and lead to more effective policing.

The Octavia VRS diesel beats an Avensis any day!

meathstevie

What difference would it make if a state vehicle ran on agri diesel ? Their fuel budgets are public money anyway.

hobbitt

meathstevie wrote: »

What difference would it make if a state vehicle ran on agri diesel ? Their fuel budgets are public money anyway.

A saving in one area could be used in another

e.g. save a million on diesel and buy winter tyres, overall motoring budget not affected.


Original question was:

Do AGS dip cars for agri diesel and then call in Revenue if its green (or red)?

I have never seen cars being dipped in 25 years, just an occoasional joint
Garda/Customs checkpoint on the Naas Road, stopping trucks, sometimes with a mobile weighbridge for good measure.

TylerIE

hobbitt wrote: »

A saving in one area could be used in another

e.g. save a million on diesel and buy winter tyres, overall motoring budget not affected.


Original question was:

Do AGS dip cars for agri diesel and then call in Revenue if its green (or red)?

I have never seen cars being dipped in 25 years, just an occoasional joint
Garda/Customs checkpoint on the Naas Road, stopping trucks, sometimes with a mobile weighbridge for good measure.

Travelling on the border a lot I have only ever seen Customs dipping diesel. Sometimes on their own and sometimes at joint checkpoints with Gardaí.

Terrontress

I was up North at the weekend, on the A1.

There's a new Topaz / Centra has opened. They have a HGV lane for Diesel. There are two diesel hoses and with a sign saying diesel beside each one. One has a black handle and black sticker. The other a red handle and a red sticker. Not much else in the way of markings.

I suppose seeing the reduced price should be warning enough, never mind the colour of the pump.


And while we're on the topic of Emergency Services, I saw some interesting vehicles on the run between Newry and Belfast.

Firstly 2 bulletproof Omegas and an English reg Mitsubishi Outlander travelling in high speed convoy.

Secondly a semi-marked Focus estate. White car, blue POLICE markings on bonnett and beneath bump strip on side doors, red reflective POLICE on yellow background on bottom half of boot door.

Thirdly what I presume was ANPR car. Marked Vectra, highly visible, battenburg, bulletproof windows and what appeared to be an infra-red camera on the top of the led lightbar. Tubular, white outside, black inside, above the driver's head and pointing at a rightwards angle as you look at the back of the car.

hobbitt

Thw filling stations are very discrete about the agri-diesel, leaving it up to the driver to make the mistake, also putting temptation his way, which enhances their profits!

I was in a Dublin taxi over the weekend.

Was told their latest dodge is to put half a liter of used engine oil in with each fill of diesel, which colours it black. driver then claims its bio-diesel (made from old cooking oil etc) if dipped. He said he wasnt aware of Dublin taxi's beiug dipped for years.

This dodge only hides the colour, and chemical analysis will reveal the green dye.

If a dipping campaign was started in Dublin, a lot of taxis would disappear overnight.

goldie fish

hobbitt wrote: »

Thw filling stations are very discrete about the agri-diesel, leaving it up to the driver to make the mistake, also putting temptation his way, which enhances their profits!

I was in a Dublin taxi over the weekend.

Was told their latest dodge is to put half a liter of used engine oil in with each fill of diesel, which colours it black. driver then claims its bio-diesel (made from old cooking oil etc) if dipped. He said he wasnt aware of Dublin taxi's beiug dipped for years.

This dodge only hides the colour, and chemical analysis will reveal the green dye.

If a dipping campaign was started in Dublin, a lot of taxis would disappear overnight.

He still needs to make a declaration if it is bio diesel, and an evidential test(30 seconds on the roadside) will show him a liar anyway.

I'll make a few calls

hobbitt

Original question remains unanswered.

Do AGS dip cars for green diesel and inform Customs if it is positive?

The equiptment needed (self priming syphon and sample jars) would cost very little, and yield a lot in penalties.

namoosh

No a friend of mine is in AGS he said they have no function regarding marked gas oil, it is purely a function of customs and excise. If customs stop you and notice you have no tax however they inform the guards that car was being used with no tax. He also said that NCT and DOE dont check for it either.

AGS more concerned with uninsured drivers, the insurance federation reckon that up to 30% of motorists have no insurance, pay on the drip and cancel when they get cert and disc.

Wouldn't chance the green myself, customs very active, was dipped at motorway toll booth, in Finglas and on Ashbourne road all in the last 3 months, friends wife was dipped in meath picking up kids from school.

CharlieZeroOne

goldiefish

are you a pilice officer
are you a customs agent
are you a judge



your all over this and the last thread from '08 like a wet blanket

goldie fish

Redd4 wrote: »

goldiefish

are you a pilice officer
are you a customs agent
are you a judge



your all over this and the last thread from '08 like a wet blanket

I used to be a District Court Judge, but I recently got promoted to the Circuit court. Don't see as much diesel dippers there.

Whats a pilice officer?

meathstevie

goldie fish wrote: »

I used to be a District Court Judge, but I recently got promoted to the Circuit court. Don't see as much diesel dippers there.

Whats a pilice officer?

Won't be long before you'll get to meet the diesel launderers so...

CharlieZeroOne

and in your spare time you patrol the pages of boards.ie.

goldie fish

Redd4 wrote: »

and in your spare time you patrol the pages of boards.ie.

As a Circuit court Judge, I have lots of spare time.

Michaelmas is often the busiest sitting. Most public order convictions from christmas and paddys day don't come to appeal till then.

:rolleyes:

Whats your problem anyway?

CharlieZeroOne

you seem to relish getting people in trouble. even the guards dont enforce all of the rules/laws. its hard for ordinary people to get by without bending rules sometimes. i dont use green diesel. im sorely tempted, but i prefer the stresslessness (lol) of being legal.
but thats not to say i can afford to stick to the rules/laws all the time. you seem like youd love to catch me when i dont, its your idea of fun, a good time. the mentality confuses me. live and let live?

goldie fish

Redd4 wrote: »

you seem to relish getting people in trouble. even the guards dont enforce all of the rules/laws. its hard for ordinary people to get by without bending rules sometimes. i dont use green diesel. im sorely tempted, but i prefer the stresslessness (lol) of being legal.
but thats not to say i can afford to stick to the rules/laws all the time. you seem like youd love to catch me when i dont, its your idea of fun, a good time. the mentality confuses me. live and let live?

I'm flattered, pleased, maybe even a bit curious, but I already have a girlfriend thanks.

Now stop internet stalking me, wierdo.

CharlieZeroOne

what a crap comeback.

goldie fish

Redd4 wrote: »

what a crap comeback.

What were you expecting wierdo?

CharlieZeroOne

I wasnt expecting a Circuit court Judge, a pillar of society, to resort to calling me names

CharlieZeroOne

dont they do any profiling on people before they're allowed to sit in judgement of other people?

i dont think your an ideal candidate

hrcbob

I can see this thread being one of the swinging factors in someones decision on the refferendum to reduce judges pay on thurs..

An Ri rua

@Redd4 that's no judge... Obre les ojos

CharlieZeroOne

i was thinking, he sounds about 14

Mycroft H

goldie fish wrote: »

I used to be a District Court Judge, but I recently got promoted to the Circuit court. Don't see as much diesel dippers there.

Whats a pilice officer?

Pretty sure you posted on here that you are a member of AGS.....

Don't be telling porkies now

goldie fish

BX 19 wrote: »

Pretty sure you posted on here that you are a member of AGS.....

Don't be telling porkies now

I WAS, a member of AGS. But time passes, one picks up a bit of law here and there while in uniform, I went for my BL and before I knew it, I was your honour.
Nowdays I am "m'lud".
You have to forgive my rudeness though. What with the plebicite being given the power to cut ones pay, I have to reconsider my membership of certain golf courses in Kildare and Kilkenny. The decision is playing on my mind. If I have to take a cut to my earnings I may have to cancel one of my membeships, or even worse, start golfing at Links courses in KERRY!

However, one is still a bit worried that a random boyracer on the "internet" spends their time trawling through ones thousand plus contributions to make a decision on my personality, and even age.

That my dear chap is the work of a wierdo, and possibly their lover. Not that there's anything wrong with being a nonce these days. Back when I was a Junior counsel, the ole buggery was frowned upon...