France & Germany Enter Pact To Create United States of Europe

RockinRolla

Well, it's official - we're all fkucked - even if this was inevitable. Germany and France are now leading Europe and protecting the Euro.

The non Eurozone countries are already being shunned to some extent and the EU institutions are also being slightly downgraded with this new Franco German intergovernmental set up facilitated by the Lisbon treaty.

http://www.euractiv.com/sites/all/euractiv/files/BRNEDA224_004512.pdf

The Euro makes a break against the dollar today.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/markets-forex-idUSN1234636720110412?pageNumber=2]FOREX-Euro

I suppose reunification is not that bewildering as historically, they have been joined (regardless under what conditions). What does this mean for Ireland?

Ghost Buster

RockinRolla wrote: »

Well, it's official - even if this was inevitable. Germany and France are now leading Europe and protecting the Euro.

http://www.euractiv.com/sites/all/euractiv/files/BRNEDA224_004512.pdf

The Euro makes a break against the dollar today.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/markets-forex-idUSN1234636720110412?pageNumber=2]FOREX-Euro

I suppose reunification is not that bewildering as historically, they have been joined (regardless under what conditions). What does this mean for Ireland?

It means Jim Corr get a little credibility:eek:

Pauleta

A European state run by Germany. If only Hitler were alive to see this

liah

Honestly, I don't actually see that much changing so long as they don't increase interference outside of normal enforcement of human rights etc range. Each country is capable of running itself, has its laws in place, etc. The States' original setup isn't a bad thing, the problem is the Federal government took too much power in governing the original states and now it's just a mess. But at least the EU has an example of what not to do, I suppose.

Then again I'd argue that the US should take the current EU model instead..

Biggins

It means Eurasia will meet Eastasia on the battlefield and Airship One will stand alone.
Just don't move to the Oceanian region.

thebigbiffo

we're just going to have to get the RA back together and start bombing the s'hit of people.

oh, wait...

RockinRolla

liah wrote: »

Honestly, I don't actually see that much changing so long as they don't increase interference outside of normal enforcement of human rights etc range. Each country is capable of running itself, has its laws in place, etc. The States' original setup isn't a bad thing, the problem is the Federal government took too much power in governing the original states and now it's just a mess. But at least the EU has an example of what not to do, I suppose.

A USE will have the power to infringe taxes on the Irish people. :eek:

Of course it's a big deal - we're not dealing with 27 odd different states - we're dealing with a different monster entirely.

chin_grin

So when do we start mining the spice? Watch out for those worms!

liah

RockinRolla wrote: »

A USE will have the power to infringe taxes on the Irish people. :eek:

Of course it's a big deal - we're not dealing with 27 odd different states - we're dealing with a different monster entirely.

Which taxes?

Fukuyama

Biggins wrote: »

It means Eurasia will meet Eastasia on the battlefield and Airship One will stand alone.
Just don't move to the Oceanian region.

Oh pleeease... what is this, 1984?

RockinRolla

Pauleta wrote: »

A European state run by Germany. If only Hitler were alive to see this

The Germans have discovered that manipulation of money is far better than weapons in taking over Europe. It's time to kiss some serious ass.

Biggins

RockinRolla wrote: »

The Germans have discovered that manipulation of money is far better than weapons in taking over Europe. It's time to kiss some serious ass.

They learned well from the Chinese.

twinytwo

Pauleta wrote: »

A European state run by Germany. If only Hitler were alive to see this

That was the whole point of the EU in the first place. Except this time the germans used economics instead of bullets.

themadchef

liah wrote: »

Honestly, I don't actually see that much changing

Bingo!

That was the current of sentiment that got Lisbon through, and all the other "sure nothing changes" agreements.

We are going to see change, like a tide coming in. .....Never happens all that suddenly, next thing youre drowning.

Sykk

I for one, welcome our German Overlords.

minidazzler

I'm pretty OK with it.

AhSureTisGrand

Nothing about the Illuminati or the Zionist plot to rule the world? Disappointing OP...

liah

themadchef wrote: »

Bingo!

That was the current of sentiment that got Lisbon through, and all the other "sure nothing changes" agreements.

We are going to see change, like a tide coming in. .....Never happens all that suddenly, next thing youre drowning.

Then explain - what exactly is it that would change? What would be so different?

Look at the US setup - it's really not so different from the EU; individual member states governed by general regulations such as those that are already in place in the EU, or can be voted upon by member states. Provided you can keep a leash on the Federal government when it comes to taxes and law and still allow all countries to self-regulate these, I cannot see how much would change.

The problems start to happen when the Federal government tries to enforce laws that the member states don't agree with, like what's happening in California and other medical marijuana states who are constantly battling the Federal government despite medical marijuana being legal in the states themselves. As long as the Federal government isn't allowed to take too much power, as they have done in the US, what, honestly, would change?

The only thing I can see it affecting is, perhaps, military.

RockinRolla

liah wrote: »

Then explain - what exactly is it that would change? What would be so different?

Look at the US setup - it's really not so different from the EU; individual member states governed by general regulations such as those that are already in place in the EU, or can be voted upon by member states. Provided you can keep a leash on the Federal government when it comes to taxes and law and still allow all countries to self-regulate these, I cannot see how much would change.

The problems start to happen when the Federal government tries to enforce laws that the member states don't agree with, like what's happening in California and other medical marijuana states who are constantly battling the Federal government despite medical marijuana being legal in the states themselves. As long as the Federal government isn't allowed to take too much power, as they have done in the US, what, honestly, would change?

The only thing I can see it affecting is, perhaps, military.

Is it totally out of the question that Irish people would not like to be a state in the USE?

liah

RockinRolla wrote: »

Is it totally out of the question that Irish people would not like to be a state in the USE?

I'm not saying it's right, or wrong, or what the people want, or don't want. I just want to know what would actually change.

blaze1

well fcuk it then,,, I'm starting to build my own rocket ship, anyone that wants to help drop me a pm.

Once the rocket has been built were mosey off to Mars and see what the craic's like, befriend the marshions and tell them ze germans are saying bad things about there ma's, hay presto no more Germ..I mean european state.

My name is URL

liah wrote: »

The only thing I can see it affecting is, perhaps, military.

I'd be more concerned about what impact it has on individual nation's decision making powers tbh. One of the main reasons I was against the Lisbon Treaty is because of this very thing.

I'm sure the usual closet federalists will be crawling out of the woodwork soon to remind us all how ill-equipped we are to manage our own lives and that the more power we hand over to Brussels the better off we will be!

Jagle

sorry but is this possible because of the lisbon? the lisbon several countires voted no on and were over turned
france, voted no, president over turned ruling
we voted no, they claimed we were stupid and made up vote again

Predator_

The patriotic outrage is overwhelming.
Nerds.

liah

My name is URL wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about what impact it has on individual nation's decision making powers tbh. One of the main reasons I was against the Lisbon Treaty is because of this very thing.

I'm sure the usual closet federalists will be crawling out of the woodwork soon to remind us all how ill-equipped we are to manage our own lives and that the more power we hand over to Brussels the better off we will be!

They can only take as much power as the individual nation gives. Vote in droves against policies you don't agree with, it's all that can be done in any democratic society. A lot of us have to live with laws and taxes that we disagree with but the majority would agree with. If they keep making you vote for it, keep voting no. Stalling is better than submitting, imo.

RockinRolla

Jagle wrote: »

sorry but is this possible because of the lisbon? the lisbon several countires voted no on and were over turned
france, voted no, president over turned ruling
we voted no, they claimed we were stupid and made up vote again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgLxgdNFwhE

TeddyTedson

Does anybody have a link to a video that was here a few days ago about the next great war being about monies.

Jagle

RockinRolla wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgLxgdNFwhE

thank you thats what i was referring too

phasers

liah wrote: »

They can only take as much power as the individual nation gives. Vote in droves against policies you don't agree with, it's all that can be done in any democratic society. A lot of us have to live with laws and taxes that we disagree with but the majority would agree with. If they keep making you vote for it, keep voting no. Stalling is better than submitting, imo.

Since when has the EU let citizens vote for anything?

liah

phasers wrote: »

Since when has the EU let citizens vote for anything?

If they want to make it like the US, they're going to have to. And as far as I'm aware, you guys had the chance to vote no again on Lisbon, and you just didn't. Open to correction though.

What have they enforced on you without allowing you to vote? As a foreigner my knowledge of pre-2008 Irish political history is a bit lacking.

ejmaztec

RockinRolla wrote: »

Is it totally out of the question that Irish people would not like to be a state in the USE?

The lethargic masses probably wouldn't give a sh1t, as long as they got a few quid out of it.

My name is URL

liah wrote: »

If they want to make it like the US, they're going to have to. And as far as I'm aware, you guys had the chance to vote no again on Lisbon, and you just didn't. Open to correction though.

What have they enforced on you without allowing you to vote? As a foreigner my knowledge of pre-2008 Irish political history is a bit lacking.

The only reason that we got to vote on Lisbon is because it's in our constitution. Ironically enough, Lisbon allows for decisions to be made without the need for any referendum in Ireland, thus we voted away our own power to vote in future.

Son Of A Vidic

Pauleta wrote: »

A European state run by Germany. If only Hitler were alive to see this

Otherwise known as the 4th Reich by stealth.

liah

My name is URL wrote: »

The only reason that we got to vote on Lisbon is because it's in our constitution. Ironically enough, Lisbon allows for decisions to be made without the need for any referendum in Ireland, thus we voted away our own power to vote in future.

Well then in fairness, if you guys voted for it (no matter how many times they made you), it's sort of your own collective fault for voting yes, isn't it?

themadchef

liah wrote: »

Then explain - what exactly is it that would change? What would be so different?

The point I'm trying to make, you make pretty well for me. Point being that the ordinary Joe Soap doesn't really "get" it. Look how many booklets were printed on Lisbon? All the talks all the TV coverage and debates, yet there are many people who did not completely understand Lisbon, etc.


I may be the first one to say i don't know fully what impact \ change this will bring, but it will not be in our primary interest, Germany and France will always protect their own, i don't blame them.

PatsytheNazi

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm sure the usual closet federalists will be crawling out of the woodwork soon to remind us all how ill-equipped we are to manage our own lives and that the more power we hand over to Brussels the better off we will be!

They might have a point after the fiasco we have with FF basically ruining the country for the last 90 years or so

liah

themadchef wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make, you make pretty well for me. Point being that the ordinary Joe Soap doesn't really "get" it. Look how many booklets were printed on Lisbon? All the talks all the TV coverage and debates, yet there are many people who did not completely understand Lisbon, etc.


I may be the first one to say i don't know fully what impact \ change this will bring, but it will not be in our primary interest, Germany and France will always protect their own, i don't blame them.

No, I "get it." I get why people are concerned; being under a larger umbrella of government that doesn't understand your country's policies is never a comforting idea. Tbh I've argued in theoretical favour of the disbandment of the US Federal government for similar reasons. I'm not advocating this. Just asking (like, actually asking) what will realistically change, I'm not arguing in favour of it. As a North American I don't have the history with Ireland and the EU that many of you do and I don't know what will affect you or what already has - North American media doesn't pay much attention to anything outside of North America, as a rule. I want to learn, that's why I'm asking questions.

RockinRolla

liah wrote: »

No, I "get it." I get why people are concerned; being under a larger umbrella of government that doesn't understand your country's policies is never a comforting idea. Tbh I've argued in theoretical favour of the disbandment of the US Federal government for similar reasons. I'm not advocating this. Just asking (like, actually asking) what will realistically change, I'm not arguing in favour of it. As a North American I don't have the history with Ireland and the EU that many of you do and I don't know what will affect you or what already has - North American media doesn't pay much attention to anything outside of North America, as a rule. I want to learn, that's why I'm asking questions.

The problem is that people don't know what they're bloody voting for. The Lisbon Treaty was so complicated, even the politicians in the E.U couldn't fully comprehend it. The fact of the matter is that if you asked any Irish person if they would like to hand total power over critical matters to a foreign nation, then they'd be outraged. We fought for 800 years under an undemocratic umbrella, and now we're handing it away again for another undemocratic umbrella.

It's all very well and blinding when people are throwing money at the ordinary Joe Soap for decades - a little bit here, a little bit there. If the end product was put in front of us, nobody would of bought it. The European Union is totalitarian. It's completely undemocratic, having stated that it will not respect the views of the Irish and now we're being sucked into a vortex.

Son Of A Vidic

liah wrote: »

Well then in fairness, if you guys voted for it (no matter how many times they made you), it's sort of your own collective fault for voting yes, isn't it?

I suspect the poster that you are replying to, didn't vote for Lisbon. Your use of the term 'collective fault' implies we are all responsible, which is totally incorrect. Not all of us were hoodwinked or swallowed the deception. Here's a snippet - "Lisbon is good for jobs and good for business." Laughable really.

Gordon

Looks like a wee baby dinosaur to me:

Da Shins Kelly

The EU is becoming more and more shady all the time..I don't trust them at all.

silverspoon

OK so I did a little bit of Googling about this. The 'Pact for Competitiveness' (not exactly the creation of a USE) isn't going to be binding on us unless our government sign it. It's intergovernmental - it's outside the EU. It's not downgrading the EU Institutions because this pact wouldn't have the power to do that (it's excluding the EU Institutions from this 'competitiveness-increasing' mechanism). Unless the EU takes the proposals on board to make a legally binding piece of legislation inspired by the ideas, France and Germany can't make our government sign this.

And while I wouldn't have much confidence in the government about taking a stand against the EU, I can't see our government signing this if it's not binding on us, because while it's dressed up in bull about mutual recognition of university degrees and such, two aspects of it are not going to appeal to the government - minimum wage harmonisation, and sneaky tax harmonisation. It's expressly in the TEU/TFEU (the Lisbon Treaty) that the EU doesn't have the power to harmonise tax levels of the Member States. An amendment to the Treaties would be necessary. So this is Sarkozy and Merkel wanting to circumvent that so it can get tax harmonisation without the messiness of involving democracy.

ETA: Loving the 1984 references, there's some serious 'doublespeak' going on here, because a Pact for Competitiveness, if by whatever means it was forced upon us, would result in us, and other countries, losing whatever competitiveness we and they have - our tax rates, their minimum wage.

RockinRolla

So basically, our government will sign this rag and we'll be fecked because;
a) We won't control our taxes.
b) We won't control of wage rates.

....among other things. Those pesky Europeans - won't let democracy get in the way of their agenda of a inter-governmental coalition.

Celly Smunt

federalised debt without default anyone?

dj jarvis

RockinRolla wrote: »

Well, it's official - we're all fkucked - even if this was inevitable. Germany and France are now leading Europe and protecting the Euro.

http://www.euractiv.com/sites/all/euractiv/files/BRNEDA224_004512.pdf

The Euro makes a break against the dollar today.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/markets-forex-idUSN1234636720110412?pageNumber=2]FOREX-Euro

I suppose reunification is not that bewildering as historically, they have been joined (regardless under what conditions). What does this mean for Ireland?

in fairness this was old news 20 years ago , whoever did not see this one coming is blind and stupid

sorry but non story

now if the Germans and french take the rest of Europe by force that would be a story worthy of a thread :eek:

Nodin

RockinRolla wrote: »

............. What does this mean for Ireland?

War on the roads, mohawked motorbike gangs, cannibals.

K-9

My name is URL wrote: »

The only reason that we got to vote on Lisbon is because it's in our constitution. Ironically enough, Lisbon allows for decisions to be made without the need for any referendum in Ireland, thus we voted away our own power to vote in future.

There was talk of another referendum to address deficiencies with the Euro, hasn't happened yet but AFAIK we'll need one if Croatia join and I haven't heard anything different on that. There was a whole panic about that last year and the chances of a Lisbon 3 type referendum, funnily enough.

RockinRolla

pmcmahon wrote: »

federalised debt without default anyone?

So we join - shift the debt to the federal government and then back out?

silverspoon

RockinRolla wrote: »

So basically, our government will sign this rag and we'll be fecked because;
a) We won't control our taxes.
b) We won't control of wage rates.

....among other things. Those pesky Europeans - won't let democracy get in the way of their agenda of a inter-governmental coalition.

Why do you think our government will sign this? How many countries, given the choice, would want tax and wage harmonisation? France and Germany want it because they want to set the agenda. There are 25 other countries, not setting that agenda, that may not bite because that is a step towards the erosion of sovereignty that goes a bit too far.
Why do you think this is being done via an intergovernmental pact? Because, despite the many, many EU proposals and legislation that lack serious political proofing, tax and wage harmonisation is a step too far, politically speaking. I'm not saying that it will never be an issue within the EU, but it would have to have a Treaty basis to allow for such harmonisation.

oppenheimer1

My name is URL wrote: »

The only reason that we got to vote on Lisbon is because it's in our constitution. Ironically enough, Lisbon allows for decisions to be made without the need for any referendum in Ireland, thus we voted away our own power to vote in future.

No we didn't. Stop spreading misinformation.

General General

Die Deutschen, ein großer Bund von Jungs.