The "Gay Community"

ninty9er

This term the "gay community" irks me somewhat.

Before I figured I was gay the only communities I was part of were "the campus community" and the "local community".

Now that I'm out I don't necessarily see it as any different. Homosexuality isn't an ethnicity.

It comes up on threads here from time to time that to truly come out you need to become part of "the community", well to be honest I prefer being part of the communities I was always a part of.

Until this term disappears I feel there is a long way to go to true equality. I suppose it's a little bit of a rant based on nothing more than I don't like being pigeon holed because of the actions of some militant gays who "are here, queer, now get over it".

I suppose my point is that I am me and I happen to be gay and not the other way around which tends to be a theme in the visible parts of the "community" that I work with (college LGBT). As far as I'm concerned they are campness societies who do a little bit of homo sex-ed and set back the notion of anyone who doesn't outwardly look like a "fairy" or a "butch lesbian" being gay.

Maybe that's a little harsh?? I'm not saying I'm right or wrong and I'm open to getting different experiences, but that is my experience. What are people's opinions?

Edit:
"people in the community who happen to be gay" is probably what I envision as a future ideal. No need for it to be any sort of big deal needing a label.

normaldude

I agree with what you are saying and have brought this up here - I think the last time the lesiban administor on here shouted me down.

I think there are a number of different type of gays in life - I dont feel that LGBT has anything to do with me, maybe the GB part definately not the T part (to be honest it kinda disgusts me, guess thats just me been honest).

On the positive I think its great to see gays in sport and normal role model like gareth thomas etc, Id hope that in time more guys would have the courage to do this, I think then the idea of been would progress past the hair stylist ( I guess he can be a good sport player too).

CdeC

I disagree,
It is normal in any community that people with the same interests and ideals socialise around the same place. The gay "community" is the name given to this. It is a great way to meet other gay people and also take part in activities other than drinking.
Also a lot of groups have been started from this and hopefully covers a wide section of activities to suit anyone including sports, arts and social groups.
UI don't see anything wrong with it.

I know gay is not an ethnicity but neither is Christian, Punk or Art and literature.

Morag

No one said you had to leave the other communities you are a part of.
Some times it is good to be able to talk to others who have been through some of the things you have been, to listen and support each other or just vent.
It has also been away to go to events and get to know more people and there for up the chances of you meeting someone.

There are many different people who are invovled in the different aspects of 'the community' it's not just the media/society notions of certain stereotypes.
But if you've never gotten invovled then you'd never know who's out there.

It is good to see a better representation of the diversity of people who are LGBT over the last few years.

rainbow kirby

normaldude wrote: »

maybe the GB part definately not the T part (to be honest it kinda disgusts me, guess thats just me been honest).

Do not make transphobic comments in this forum. Infracted.

normaldude

I didnt say i Was transphobic? I just said I was been honest - am I not intitled to my opinion?

baby and crumble

I used to think the same as the OP, and that was when I was in college. Let's be honest here, when you're 19 and living on your own in a place you can be yourself, you want to fit in. Fit in to what you think being gay is- usually one of the stereotypes you see on tv, which is what most of us have as our reference points before we grow up and live a little.

I HATED college LBG, because I never fitted in. I was in between stereotypes- I liked wearing masculine styles of clothes, but always the female cuts; I was in between butch and femme, and at the time, I thought those were the only things I could be. The other girls in my LBG soc scared me, because they fit into those categories, at least on the outside. I was scared to talk to them because I had no idea what to talk about- they seemed to know everything about being gay- look, they were able to fit in to what lesbians were meant to look like, not this weird mix like me. Plus, I knew the rules- butch girls like femmes, and femmes liked butches. That was they way it was, and there was no wiggle room. So who was going to like me?

Whereas now, with a little bit (ok, a LOT) of growing up done, I know that I'm actually just fine the way I am- a lot of girls are like me, a little bit butch, and little bit girly. And that's ok. I like being part of a community where I don't have to explain myself, or answer questions about what it's like to be gay, like I do in some other circles. Sometimes I feel awkward explaining things to my straight friends. Sometimes it's just nice to chat to people who are interested in some of the things I am too- there are certain musical artists, for example, that I got into when I was coming out, because when I read about lesbians, it said they liked listening to Ani Difranco and Melissa Etheridge and people like that. So I did, and I love that music now. But in Ireland it's mostly other lesbians who have heard of them, so that's nice, sometimes.

But I think it's like the age-old thing of everything in moderation, if that's how you feel. I like going out into the gay community every now and again, and meeting new people I can relax around- they're not judging me if I'm wearing my tie and waistcoat combo, or if I decide to wear a low cut shirt. But if that were to become my only social outlet, well that's not healthy, really. Just as if I were to only move in my work circle.

I do sometimes think that the community can be it's own worst enemy though. The extremes of people, or personalities, or looks, are the most memorable, and the loudest, so the gay community has become synonymous with "screaming queens" and the lesbians that even I can't tell apart from men and used to terrify me when I walked into the George 10 years ago. that's the way they live their life, and that's awesome. But the extremes make people uncomfortable, and that can solidify the negative assumptions that society have about what it means to be gay. To me, being gay just means I like girls, nothing more, nothing less. if I was into guys I have a feeling I'd still look and dress the way I do- it'd just be a little different. To other, though, it is their signifier, their calling card. that's great. I'm probably really boring in that my signifier is that I work with people with disabilities. That's the lens I view myself through.

In no way do I think anyone should change who they are though. I'm just saying, it's something I think.

God, I went on there, sorry.

wonderfulname

normaldude wrote: »

I didnt say i Was transphobic? I just said I was been honest - am I not intitled to my opinion?

Being gay is unnatural, it disgusts me, what? I didn't say I was homophobic? I was just being honest - am I not entitled to my opinion?

\sarcasm

Its the same thing normaldude, its not just an opinion now is it?

OP, I'm not into the whole community thing either, but most people need to belong and fit in somewhere, its human nature, I'd imagine LGBT groups make a lot of people feel an ease and normality they haven't felt in a long while. I don't deal with my own college LGBTsoc much at all but they seem to have people from all walks of life and they didn't give me any impression of superiorism about style or nature or anything. The first time I went to one of their events I was dreading walking into a room of central bank-esque teens (my impression of the stereotype of gay youth), I think I only saw two, that was a real education for me.

My only issue with the term "gay community" is that it conjures up this kind of dated 1970s San Francisco bold and outrageous kind of image which screams outsiders.
Of course the ideal would be no need for labelling, but to be honest there will always be gay clubs and events, people need to meet people! People will always be brought up with assumptions about their role in society, its not bad its just life, they'll need reassurance, or an explanation, or that sense of belonging. Even if nobody gives a crap people aren't fond of being different. A community is fantastic and necessary, but it needs a new term, or at least to work to define itself differently.

normaldude

Wonderful I get you, I should not have expressed my view, I guess there are a number of people in the world who have your above view point, are they homophobic? They might have this view point and still be nice to gay people and maybe prefer not to know about there sexuality, just know the person?

Anyway the point I was really trying to make was that LGBT has its faults in representing gay men in society, as I said the T in particular has nothing to do with me, that was my opinion, I hope im not upsetting anyone sorry.

Azure_sky

normaldude wrote: »

I think there are a number of different type of gays in life - I dont feel that LGBT has anything to do with me, maybe the GB part definately not the T part (to be honest it kinda disgusts me, guess thats just me been honest).

On the positive I think its great to see gays in sport and normal role model like gareth thomas etc, Id hope that in time more guys would have the courage to do this, I think then the idea of been would progress past the hair stylist ( I guess he can be a good sport player too).

Sigh...here we go again...Of course when a straight person says homosexuality is disgusting they're vile homophobic bigots, right? You may deny it on an internet forum but in real life-I wonder....
Being honest is good, but be careful not to be a hypocrite. Transphobic gays just want to get rid of the T to make themselves look more respectable. It's utterly selfish and has nothing to do with truth nor justice. Also if you knew anything about LGBT history you'd know how it is that the T is politically aligned with the LGB.

I can understand how some gays don't like being stereotyped, but you are walking on easy street compared to how the media portrays transsexuals.
Essentially what I'm saying is blame the media-don't blame the victims. Otherwise you'll end up looking like a hypocrite, a douche bag and a moron.

normaldude

I can understand how some gays don't like being stereotyped, but you are walking on easy street compared to how the media portrays transsexuals.

Why do gays have do this? Dont they have enough of problems?

Azure_sky

normaldude wrote: »

Why do gays have do this? Dont they have enough of problems?

Why do gays have to do what? Please elaborate.

wonderfulname

There have been many threads of this ilk recently, they leave quite the bitter taste. Can we stick on the topic of the community as a whole and not drag down the thread? I'm actually quite interested as to what people have to say.

Azure_sky

Yes, it is distasteful but censoring free speech will not get rid of the issue in the long term-merely sweep it under the carpet for another week. When there was a debate as to whether there should be a dedicated transgender forum, as opposed to an LGBT forum, I voted for a dedicated transgender forum-I have a high level of intuition and am also bit of a cynic. I hate to say it but I think I've been proven right. I read far less, if any, transphobic crap on other boards sub forums and other forums in general. Often when I visit the LGBT forum I tend to come away depressed, disillusioned and irritated.

Hunchback

The only hing that strikes me about the use of the word community is that it implies a sense of community or solidarity amongst gay people, and I would question whether or not this is true ? It seems to me that the most commonly sharEd experience amongst the gay people I have known is just getting pissed together. In my experience we aren't that mobilised in a community driven way, Although pride marches in Dublin and gay marriage marches have really impressed me recently. By the way, I am conscious of the fact that I always feel I have more in common with my straight friends, so I'll admit that I am open to accusation of projecting my own issues

Aoifums

ninty9er wrote: »

I suppose my point is that I am me and I happen to be gay and not the other way around which tends to be a theme in the visible parts of the "community" that I work with (college LGBT). As far as I'm concerned they are campness societies who do a little bit of homo sex-ed and set back the notion of anyone who doesn't outwardly look like a "fairy" or a "butch lesbian" being gay.

Would you not join it then? If you have an issue that everyone in it seems to be stereotypically gay then would you not try to change people's opinions? I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't conform to the stereotypes you're talking about in the LGBT soc.
If you've got a problem about that notion, do something about it. Don't just bitch about the soc behind their back.

Edit:
"people in the community who happen to be gay" is probably what I envision as a future ideal. No need for it to be any sort of big deal needing a label.

Generally speaking, human's label everything. And no, if we start saying that then the next thing is talking about the "people in this community who happen to be from the same continent" Having a label isn't a sign of being a big deal.

DubArk

I remember when I was a young 18 yr old, lost, alone and scared in the 80’s that there was a “community” of gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Transvestites and everyone in between and all around those labels that congregated in the “Hirsfeld Centre” near what is now Temple Bar, although back then it was just a heap of disused warehouses and clapped out buildings (I digress). Out of the darkness of Irish society shone a light where all were welcome and I mean ALL. This was my very first step into facing up to my sexual orientation and my first step into respecting the difference of others and it was these common differences that bonded all of us.
As society has become more inclusive I am now firmly part of the wider community but I can’t forget my roots and of how those very roots helped in my inclusion as a gay man into society or the Wider “community”, if you want.
The more inclusive we ALL become lesser and lesser the LGBT will be relevant in the future, therefore I can’t wait till the LGBT becomes redundant but not till all of us are part of the bigger picture.

BanzaiBk

The "community" aspect exists for many reasons. Camaraderie and support I guess being the biggest two. Exploring and understanding is a big deal for people. They often get consumed by the gay bubble and live within that for awhile. I know I took shelter within the gay community when I was on hard times personally.

Offline and out of soc scenarios the gay community functions pretty well I think, people just don't talk about it 'cos it doesn't involve pulling 17 year olds or being fabulous in general.

Chuchoter

I honestly don't see the problem with gay community as its being described by the OP. If it gives people a place to meet others who are like them in some way then great. I mean obviously just being gay is a fairly boring thing to have in common and once you get past coming out stories you basically run out of stuff to talk about, but I've met quite a few people in my limited experience with 'gay community' type things who are into all the same weird stuff I like,I don't have to lie about being gay to them and they get what I'm on about! I like having other people my age who are also gay to talk to, there are just some things my straight friends just don't get and I don't expect them to have to listen to me!

However, I do find that some people just use it as a way to exclude people who aren't like really stereotypical or really into going to every gay event ever. I have one friend who I was like so close with, we were like best friends, then he got in with a load of really camp gay guys and just totally ignored me after that because I wasn't in with them

deirdre_dub

normaldude wrote: »

I guess there are a number of people in the world who have your above view point, are they homophobic? They might have this view point and still be nice to gay people

Really? How could you be nice to someone you find disgusting?

and maybe prefer not to know about there sexuality, just know the person?

You mean know the person except for their sexuality. That isn't knowing the person.

You want to know me except for my gender, which you find disgusting? How is that getting to know me? How am I supposed to hide my gender from you FFS?!

Anyway the point I was really trying to make was that LGBT has its faults in representing gay men in society, as I said the T in particular has nothing to do with me, that was my opinion, I hope im not upsetting anyone sorry.

You are the only person who can perfectly represent you, and you cannot form a community by yourself. A community necessarily means compromise, thinking of others and their needs, and looking out for them.

The more perfectly a community represents you, the fewer people are going to be in it, the less effective it will be at producing significant changes.

You want to be in a community which only consists of gay men? Such communities exist. There are even communities of gay men who all find transgendered people disgusting. However, such communities are very small, and are shunned by most right-thinking people.

Asry

I used to be the co-president of the LGBT soc in IADT. I know that the stereotyping of 'butch lesbians' and 'fairy boys' can be detrimental, but on the whole I found the soc to be a great place to feel safe while expressing the way that you are and feel.

I also found myself supporting younger members by just talking to them one on one about themselves, and I have made life-long friends in the process. [well at least I hope they're life-long!]

So yeah, I think the idea of a community is a great thing! I agree that there might be a time where we are seen as just the same as 'everyone else', but until then I'll take inclusion with my peers and support above everything

ninty9er

Aoifums wrote: »

If you've got a problem about that notion, do something about it. Don't just bitch about the soc behind their back.

You make an assumption that I haven't, which would be untrue. I'm friends with some of the people in the society and have said it (head and brick wall are two words that spring to mind). In a manner which many people feel that people should reach out to the "gay community", many parts of that community fail to reach out to those who don't conform to the stereotypes.

DubArk wrote: »

The more inclusive we ALL become lesser and lesser the LGBT will be relevant in the future, therefore I can’t wait till the LGBT becomes redundant but not till all of us are part of the bigger picture.

You see, I think the only people excluding LGBT people, having experienced it, are gay men in particular who just socialise with other gay men. For example I have a colleague who is inordinately more interested in socialising with me than he is with our straight friends, I just don't get it. Are there not better reasons to hang out with someone or be communal than sexual orientation? Sports interest, hobby etc... irrespective of sexual orientation.

Then again to contextualise I believe that the whole "x group" in politics should have quotas is stupid, because if you can't stand up on your own merit irrespective then the answer is you actually shouldn't be there.

Asry

ninty9er wrote: »

Are there not better reasons to hang out with someone or be communal than sexual orientation? Sports interest, hobby etc... irrespective of sexual orientation.

.....

Then again to contextualise I believe that the whole "x group" in politics should have quotas is stupid, because if you can't stand up on your own merit irrespective then the answer is you actually shouldn't be there.

Hear hear!! You come together because of sexual orientation, and then become friends because of common interests

Dr. Baltar

ninty9er wrote: »

Homosexuality isn't an ethnicity.

Some would disagree.
LGBT people have their own music, language and nationalist movement to name a few.



I would however agree with you though, that this idea of "you're not out until you're in the soc and queening it up" really annoys me also. I, like you, would be of the opinion that I'm me and I happen to be gay rather than have my sexuality define me as a person.

I find events organised by said "community" to be fun, and I take part in them as much as possible, but I'm an individual at first, and a loose member of the community second.

KnifeWRENCH

Azure_sky wrote: »

I can understand how some gays don't like being stereotyped, but you are walking on easy street compared to how the media portrays transsexuals.

Not quite sure everyone would agree with that. I certainly don't want to trivialise your unhappiness with how the media portrays transsexuals, but to say "my people's problems are bigger than your people's problems" when we're under the same LGBT umbrella sorta defeats the purpose of "community".

To answer the OP: I felt the same as you a lot. I didn't get the concept of LGBT community for ages. Not being straight isn't really enough to form the basis for a friendship. Still, I managed to find friends in my college LGBT soc and I think joining it was a very positive experience; my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. I have no interest in shunting my straight friends, or no longer being a part of anything I was a part of before. Don't let being gay define who you are; if others want to that, let them but don't feel like you have to. You can still be part of this "LGBT community" without making it the be all and end all of your whole life!

stephen_n

So are LGBT people who say they find hetrosexual sex disgusting hetrophobic? Much as I don't agree with normaldudes thinking I think a lot of the negative reaction too it is based on an over identification with ones sexuality (although trans is far more than sexuality) but identifying purely as one part of your personality is narrow minded and confining! I think that was kind of the op's point. It's one of those things though, life shapes us and the more we live the more that changes and the over identification and the millitancy that comes with it, in most cases changes as people grow out of the need for it which quite often can be caused by the traumas of trying to come to terms with sexuality! However those militant groups are just a subset of the LGBT community they do not represent it as a whole! Look at Gloria, the various sports clubs and societies that exist where there is no real pressure to conform to any stereotypes or social norms they are a far more representative ideal of what the gay community is!

Asry

Azure_sky wrote: »

I can understand how some gays don't like being stereotyped, but you are walking on easy street compared to how the media portrays transsexuals.

I would just like to point out that many people on both sides of the gay and straight communities seem to really, really have a problem with bisexual people. So like it's not just you, you know? There's other people getting sh*t too.

Chuchoter

Azure_sky wrote: »

I can understand how some gays don't like being stereotyped, but you are walking on easy street compared to how the media portrays transsexuals.

This is not a competition to see whose the most prejudiced against. There is always some kind of argument over who has it hardest, in reality we all have it hard.

BanzaiBk

crayolastereo wrote: »

This is not a competition to see whose the most prejudiced against.

Couldn't help myself.

Links234

I'm not gonna go play opression olympics, it's pretty stupid. someone who's transgender might have a relatively easy time transitioning and have very supportive friends and family, and someone who's gay might be disowned by their family, thrown out of their home and rejected by their friends. so what does it really matter if transgender people, on the whole, have it worse? focusing on that seems divisive to me

and there's just too much divisiveness already...

I see it all too often that some gay men will berate others for being "camp" or some lesbians chastizing the more femme lesbians as "fake" or "lipstick lesbians", or some people who look down upon bisexuals, and make judgments about their sexuality not being valid. and there's some trans people who are absolute assholes to other trans people, and even some trans people who are jerks to LGB people too!

look, there's some assholes in every walk of life. the very, very worst, most vitriolic things that have been said to me personally, came from other trans people. they don't represent who I am, or anything at all, so where do we draw the line there when it comes to division?

some LGB people don't like the T? big woop, I'm just gonna get on with it. so should everyone else.

Azure_sky

Asry wrote: »

I would just like to point out that many people on both sides of the gay and straight communities seem to really, really have a problem with bisexual people. So like it's not just you, you know? There's other people getting sh*t too.

crayolastereo wrote: »

This is not a competition to see whose the most prejudiced against. There is always some kind of argument over who has it hardest, in reality we all have it hard.

As a bi-sexual I know all too well about that also. Gay in denial or hyper sexed etc.

deirdre_dub

stephen_n wrote: »

So are LGBT people who say they find hetrosexual sex disgusting hetrophobic? Much as I don't agree with normaldudes thinking I think a lot of the negative reaction too it is based on an over identification with ones sexuality (although trans is far more than sexuality)

Actually, trans isn't a sexuality at all - it is a gender identity.

"Gay sex is disgusting" is a statement of distaste of an act. "Trans is disgusting" is a statement of distaste of an aspect of identity.

Azure_sky

Right, you can be transsexual and a-sexual. The suffix "sexual" tends to imply a sexual orientation, which in fact it is not.

AndrewJD

Would transgender be a better descriptor? Or have I misunderstood the term?

Azure_sky

AndrewJD wrote: »

Would transgender be a better descriptor? Or have I misunderstood the term?

My understanding, and I could be wrong here, is that transgender was originally used to describe gender dysphorics who went on hormones, lived as their identified gender but did not get sex re-assignment surgery.
However it now is a rather ambiguous umbrella term which encompasses everything from non-fetishistic transvestism,androgynes, bi-genderism and transsexualism.

Personally I like the term gender dysphoric as it does not imply a sexual orientation and it differentiates between androgynes, transvestites, bi genders and transsexuals.

bodice ripper

As I have previously stated, I don't hold much truck with the "gay community". I have only 3 gay friends, and I met them as a child before ever we knew our sexualities. I don't identify at all with the various aspects of "gay culture" as it has been described to me. In my experience, the gay people I have had occasion to meet socially and in work have been quite hostile in regard to my bisexuality. What's to make me feel tied in with these people who just happen to also not be straight? We're all picked on? There are many down trodden groups to choose from there

easychair

bodice ripper wrote: »

As I have previously stated, I don't hold much truck with the "gay community". I have only 3 gay friends, and I met them as a child before ever we knew our sexualities. I don't identify at all with the various aspects of "gay culture" as it has been described to me. In my experience, the gay people I have had occasion to meet socially and in work have been quite hostile in regard to my bisexuality. What's to make me feel tied in with these people who just happen to also not be straight? We're all picked on? There are many down trodden groups to choose from there

I think every section of society has its intolerant sections, and the gay community is no different.

One thing I have notice, tho, is that there is a growing level of hostility and intolerance towards those inthe gay community who dont share the same views on some gay issues. You can see it here on boards.ie quite often.

bitter_lemon

its probably because its a public board. if you had a conversation in a pub about it shooting the breeze you would not get the same reaction. you have to be politically correct. there is no scope here for personal views and challenges. and if you do so they are twisted into attacks by the offended party who is not even being attacked.

we really only have our sexuality in common. if i meet a gay person who has the same interests and likes as me great. same with a straight person. that is really who i surround myself with.
i do involve myself with the gay community and the straight community equally. people are people.

the gay community can be intolerant as any other community can.
and a lot of the gayers have a **** taste in music :P

DubArk

To me “The Community” has its roots in “people action” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
Not some social sector in some part of a City…. As in Georges Street, Soho, Greenwich Village and so on! I don’t identify with an area.
For example if I was Chinese, I wouldn’t identify with China town in London, Manchester etc. As an Irish person I never identified with Kilburn in London; for me there were too many paddy’s in one area and what came out of it was this over exaggerated “ Mick” that sang diddly Irish sh*te and rapped themselves in the Tri Colour.
I identify with the cause for equality as a community, a common Cause for the equal rights of all who are not identified as Straight. This is of course a personal view and I’m sure not shared by all.

KnifeWRENCH

Links234 wrote: »

look, there's some assholes in every walk of life.

Amen.

It sucks, but that's just the way life is.

Annasopra

I see community as being a very broad and inclusive term rather than anything specific such as places or specific groups only for people who are heteronormative or cisnormative. For example I would see personally the LGBT community as enocmpassing things like this space here on boards.ie - to me online spaces are part of our community too. There is certainly an argument as well that lgbt groups could be considered "ethnic" - if they identify with certain shared cultures.

I do find it very worrying though that in todays modern world that LGBT people and groups are moving towards heteronormativity and cisnormativity and increasingly rejecting people who do not live up perceived ideals - For example people who do not particularly agree with marriage equality are almost demonised. I myself am probably a very heteronormative, cisnormative person but it worries me that other people who are not are being rejected and demonised. Another exmaple of this would be people who agreed with Brenda Power that Panti is a bad spokesperson or sends out completely the wrong message because shes a man in a dress. I also don't particularly understand why it's a problem that some gay people want to hang around with other gay people (although I think if is taken to the extreme I understand why)

Chuchoter

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I see community as being a very broad and inclusive term rather than anything specific such as places or specific groups only for people who are heteronormative or cisnormative. For example I would see personally the LGBT community as enocmpassing things like this space here on boards.ie - to me online spaces are part of our community too. There is certainly an argument as well that lgbt groups could be considered "ethnic" - if they identify with certain shared cultures.

I do find it very worrying though that in todays modern world that LGBT people and groups are moving towards heteronormativity and cisnormativity and increasingly rejecting people who do not live up perceived ideals - For example who do not particularly agree with marriage equality are almost demonised. I myself am probably a very heteronormative, cisnormative person but it worries me that other people are not are being rejected and demonised. Another exmaple of this would be people who agreed with Brenda Power that Panti is a bad spokesperson or sends out completely the wrong message. I also don't particularly understand why it's a problem that some gay people want to hang around with other gay people (although I think if is taken to the extreme I understand why)

Yeah I think thats a problem as well, I think while its really important people have the option to live as you say very heteronormative lives, I don't agree with pushing people out who don't quite fit the new ideals we've built up, like anyone outside of gender norms is portrayed as reinforcing stereotypes or something. We shouldn't be trying to placate people like Brenda Power by abandoning half the community who aren't going to fit in with what people like her want. Like in the gay bashing thread over on AH, so many people were like oh its their own fault because they act this way or that way and thats really what most people think (in that there is a majority of people who'd say we don't mind that they're gay as long as they don't act gay).

Azure_sky

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I see community as being a very broad and inclusive term rather than anything specific such as places or specific groups only for people who are heteronormative or cisnormative. For example I would see personally the LGBT community as enocmpassing things like this space here on boards.ie - to me online spaces are part of our community too. There is certainly an argument as well that lgbt groups could be considered "ethnic" - if they identify with certain shared cultures.

I do find it very worrying though that in todays modern world that LGBT people and groups are moving towards heteronormativity and cisnormativity and increasingly rejecting people who do not live up perceived ideals - For example people who do not particularly agree with marriage equality are almost demonised. I myself am probably a very heteronormative, cisnormative person but it worries me that other people who are not are being rejected and demonised. Another exmaple of this would be people who agreed with Brenda Power that Panti is a bad spokesperson or sends out completely the wrong message because shes a man in a dress. I also don't particularly understand why it's a problem that some gay people want to hang around with other gay people (although I think if is taken to the extreme I understand why)

To be fair you get this in the transsexual community too. I've read a thread recently on a transsexual forum where a minority of transsexuals were bitching about how some transsexuals, who are unfortunate not to pass well, are over-represented and if we could get all the pretty transsexuals in the public eye it would do a lot of trans rights.

I had two problems with this. Firstly it is, primarily, a support forum and those transsexuals who can't pass well probably feel bad enough as it is without hearing their peers how they're dragging down the cause and should be swept under the carpet.

Secondly, I thought it was a very poorly thought out argument. Pushing all the convincing transsexuals in the public light and sweeping all the unconvincing transsexuals under the carpet is an appeal to instinct rather than intellect. It will not change the underlying issue which is one of ignorance, misconception and fear. People need to know that even the most unconvincing transsexual is as internally female as Britney Spears.

Only through hard scientific evidence, coherent logical debate and raising public consciousness will the issue be addressed and long lasting results be attained.
So essentially what I was going on about earlier in the thread (a group in the ascendancy trying to exclude their peers to make themselves look more respectable) is not simply an LG trait;it's a human trait. It's something we all need to be aware of. I even admit to doing it myself in the past, but I've learned. I hope others will experience the same enlightenment I have.

stephen_n

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Actually, trans isn't a sexuality at all - it is a gender identity.

"Gay sex is disgusting" is a statement of distaste of an act. "Trans is disgusting" is a statement of distaste of an aspect of identity.

Well the reason I'm refering to it as a sexuality is due to the Link with LGBT which gives reference to a sense of sexuality but which is why I said it is far more than that.

Reading back over the original post by normaldude I can see what you mean, that it reads that trans(grouping of people) are disgusting and not the act of transitioning or aspects of physical involvement with trans people which I thought he had originally meant. Once again I don't agree but just think that people being disgusted by particular actions is hugely different than being anti any gender, race sexuality etc etc....

Asry

stephen_n wrote: »

Reading back over the original post by normaldude I can see what you mean, that it reads that trans(grouping of people) are disgusting and not the act of transitioning or aspects of physical involvement with trans people which I thought he had originally meant. Once again I don't agree but just think that people being disgusted by particular actions is hugely different than being anti any gender, race sexuality etc etc....

Could you elaborate? I'm a little confused. [I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, unfortunately ] You don't agree that grouping people together is disgusting? Or that physical involvement is disgusting? Em. Or he's disgusted by the transition itself? But not the fact that the person is trans regardless of transitioning? Emmm. Yeah.

stephen_n

Asry wrote: »

Could you elaborate? I'm a little confused. [I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, unfortunately ] You don't agree that grouping people together is disgusting? Or that physical involvement is disgusting? Em. Or he's disgusted by the transition itself? But not the fact that the person is trans regardless of transitioning? Emmm. Yeah.

I did not read his original post properly so didn't realise he meant trans people were disgusting or rather he felt they were, I thought he found the act of transitiong or the thought of having sex with a trans person disgusting, which although I wouldn't agree with him I could understand he might feel that! Much as a gay man might find the thought of having sex with a woman disgusting. Is that clearer?

ninty9er

I think a lot of what was said is a side debate. I met Donal Óg Cusack yesterday after he spoke at an event and one of the things that occurred to me listening to him is that your friends should be support enough without feeling a need to get sexual orientation specific.

Maybe I just feel that fitting in can be difficult regardless of sexual orientation and that's just part of the human condition rather than an LGBT specific thing.

easychair

ninty9er wrote: »

I think a lot of what was said is a side debate. I met Donal Óg Cusack yesterday after he spoke at an event and one of the things that occurred to me listening to him is that your friends should be support enough without feeling a need to get sexual orientation specific.

Maybe I just feel that fitting in can be difficult regardless of sexual orientation and that's just part of the human condition rather than an LGBT specific thing.

Thats an interesting point. Where once the "gay community" provided a refuge and a haven from a less tolerant world, nowadays the world has changed, but those who lead the "gay community" still cling on to their separatist ideals.

It's always been a leap of the imagination to assume that simply sharing a sexual preference was a basis for a "community", any more that driving an Audi makes one a member of the "audi community". Personally, Ii've always been against the ghettisation of gay people, where gay people socialise together in gay venues run for and designed by other gay people. I have always preferred to mix it up and tend to choose friends because I like them and not because of their sexual preferences.

Now that teh rest of society is at ease with the whole gay thing, and with much more social mixing ( especially amongst the younger demographics) od gay and str8 people, the gay community becomes less and less relevant except to those largely ageing people who have enjoyed the limelight their leadership of the "gay community" brought them.

We should celebrate that to be gay nowadays is as normal as a bag of chips, and also that the younger gay people no longer feel it necessary to socialise in the gay "ghetto".

Annasopra

easychair wrote: »

We should celebrate that to be gay nowadays is as normal as a bag of chips, and also that the younger gay people no longer feel it necessary to socialise in the gay "ghetto".

And yet - the number of lgbt organisations in this country is growing; youth clubs, social groups, sports groups, groups to do with specific interests or hobbies. I don't buy your theory at all that younger gay people en masse dont feel it necessary to socialise in lgbt groups and venues. If that was the case then all of the groups i mentioned wouldn't be flourishing.

Chuchoter

easychair wrote: »

Thats an interesting point. Where once the "gay community" provided a refuge and a haven from a less tolerant world, nowadays the world has changed, but those who lead the "gay community" still cling on to their separatist ideals.

It's always been a leap of the imagination to assume that simply sharing a sexual preference was a basis for a "community", any more that driving an Audi makes one a member of the "audi community". Personally, Ii've always been against the ghettisation of gay people, where gay people socialise together in gay venues run for and designed by other gay people. I have always preferred to mix it up and tend to choose friends because I like them and not because of their sexual preferences.

Now that teh rest of society is at ease with the whole gay thing, and with much more social mixing ( especially amongst the younger demographics) od gay and str8 people, the gay community becomes less and less relevant except to those largely ageing people who have enjoyed the limelight their leadership of the "gay community" brought them.

We should celebrate that to be gay nowadays is as normal as a bag of chips, and also that the younger gay people no longer feel it necessary to socialise in the gay "ghetto".

Minorities always form communities because we've all gone through reasonably similar things and we all faces similar prejudices. I don't think we are anywhere near having a society tolerant enough that the gay community has become obsolete, this whole normal as a bag of chips thing is only true in very select circles of friends.

Endymion

Johnnymcg wrote: »

And yet - the number of lgbt organisations in this country is growing; youth clubs, social groups, sports groups, groups to do with specific interests or hobbies. I don't buy your theory at all that younger gay people en masse dont feel it necessary to socialise in lgbt groups and venues. If that was the case then all of the groups i mentioned wouldn't be flourishing.

Well, one could argue that particpation is going up percisely because they don't feel the need to socialise in gay ghettos, it can be out in the open. Being gay now can just be another thing about you, without having to be your everything.