Frontline (RTE1, 11/4/2011): "A Man's World?"

deirdre_dub

jgr12 wrote: »

Doesn't this seem like a bit of a vicious circle though? There are not as many women going into these areas so its presumed they have no interest which leads to examples of the above, where it's presumed that you don't know what you're talking about, which leads to women feeling unwelcome in those areas.

There are so many viscious circles it would make your head spin.

In the example you gave above, it seems to me that the best place to break that particular circle is in the place where there is a presumption of disinterest.

SugarHigh

deirdre_dub wrote: »

There are so many viscious circles it would make your head spin.

In the example you gave above, it seems to me that the best place to break that particular circle is in the place where there is a presumption of disinterest.

But maybe it's a fair presumption? If every woman who came in to buy a car and then had her husband pay for it I don't really blame the guy in the garage for presuming it would it be the same again. I also don't view this as a "viscous circle" it's pretty harmless.

The same can be applied to the computer shop but I think most employees of computer shops just assume everyone is clueless until they prove otherwise because that's probably true of most of their customers. If a woman was put of entering the industry because of something as mundane as this then I can't imagine she's a great loss.

Even as an intern of either gender you would be talked down to so it's really not something to worry about. IME men are just far more interested in technology and the fact some women buck the trend doesn't change this. It's about as serious as someone assuming I like football because I'm a guy, it takes 2 seconds to correct them and then there really isn't any reason to dwell on it.

deirdre_dub

SugarHigh wrote: »

But maybe it's a fair presumption?

No - it is exceedingly unfair that I am no longer treated the same way by IT sales staff because of my gender.

If every woman who came in to buy a car and then had her husband pay for it I don't really blame the guy in the garage for presuming it would it be the same again. I also don't view this as a "viscous circle" it's pretty harmless.

Pretty harmless?! There were at least two items of harm caused - first of all, the sale was dropped because of this guy's attitude and second of all, and most important of all, my friend was hurt.

The same can be applied to the computer shop but I think most employees of computer shops just assume everyone is clueless until they prove otherwise because that's probably true of most of their customers.

Then how do you explain my lived experience of now being treated distinctly differently?

If a woman was put of entering the industry because of something as mundane as this then I can't imagine she's a great loss.

It's not mundane when it is a day in, day out, constant negative message.

Even as an intern of either gender

Excuse me?! You are calling my gender an "internship"?! :mad:

you would be talked down to

I wasn't talked down to as a male. I am talked down to as a female.

IME men are just far more interested in technology and the fact some women buck the trend doesn't change this.

I believe the question at hand is one of why fewer women take up technology.

It's about as serious as someone assuming I like football because I'm a guy, it takes 2 seconds to correct them and then there really isn't any reason to dwell on it.

No it's not. It's about as serious as someone assuming you are not competant at a job that pays well because you are male.

SugarHigh

deirdre_dub wrote: »

No - it is exceedingly unfair that I am no longer treated the same way by IT sales staff because of my gender.

Just you perceive that you are now being teated differently doesn't make it so. It's entierly possible you had a preconceived notion you would be treated differently and then looked for things to back it up. Even if it did happen I just don't view it as a big deal. If every 90% of women who go into the shop is clueless can you really blame him for making presumption you might be too. It's not really going to affect your life unless you make a big deal about it.

Pretty harmless?! There were at least two items of harm caused - first of all, the sale was dropped because of this guy's attitude and second of all, and most important of all, my friend was hurt.

Well it's a pity she was hurt but I think she needs thicker skin.

Then how do you explain my lived experience of now being treated distinctly differently?

Biased perception of looking for things that might not even be there. But I agree that you probably were treated differently I just don't agree that this is a big deal. Like I said if almost every woman that goes into the shop is clueless it's going to make an impression.

It's not mundane when it is a day in, day out, constant negative message.

You can make as big of a deal out of it as you want to. Personally I wouldn't. People will assume things about you for all kinds of reasons. Who cares everyone just deals with as a normal part of life, not really something to get upset about. If a man was to be waiting around a playground I'm sure assumptions would be made.

Excuse me?! You are calling my gender an "internship"?! :mad:

No, I'm not even sure what that would mean:D

I was talking about an intern at a company whose superiors might not take seriously until they prove themselves.

I wasn't talked down to as a male. I am talked down to as a female.

There are many subjects a male would talked to about, say for example childcare. Prove that your not clueless and there isn't a problem.

I believe the question at hand is one of why fewer women take up technology.

Maybe because they're simply not as interested. It really doesn't need to be analysed.

No it's not. It's about as serious as someone assuming you are not competant at a job that pays well because you are male.

I don't find that serious because you can simply prove them otherwise. If you can't well then they were probably right.

cooperguy

deirdre_dub wrote: »

There are so many viscious circles it would make your head spin.

In the example you gave above, it seems to me that the best place to break that particular circle is in the place where there is a presumption of disinterest.

Iv given up doing that because I end up consistently being told by woman they dont understand/arent interested when it comes to tech. In my experience they just dont have an interest in the majority of cases.

irishh_bob

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Tsk - people! :rolleyes: What can you do?

Then there are those people who say "I don't have a problem, so how could you possibly have one?", or "I don't see any problem, so how could one possibly exist?" Or, "your problem doesn't visibly affect me in my life, so why should I even acknowledge that it exists?"

:rolleyes:

woody allen couldnt write dialogue that neurotic

deirdre_dub

SugarHigh wrote: »

Just you perceive that you are now being teated differently doesn't make it so. It's entierly possible you had a preconceived notion you would be treated differently and then looked for things to back it up.

Is it not also entirely possible that my perceptions are correct? Or are my perceptions so outrageous that you conclude that the problem couldn't possibly lie with the IT sales staff, and hence the problem must lie with my ability to perceive the world around me?

Even if it did happen I just don't view it as a big deal.

It isn't a big deal when someone treats you as being dumb? Cool! I intend on having some fun with you with that one!

If every 90% of women who go into the shop is clueless can you really blame him for making presumption you might be too.

So 90% of women are clueless?

It's not really going to affect your life unless you make a big deal about it.

And why on earth would I make a big deal out of the perception that 90% of women are clueless?

Well it's a pity she was hurt but I think she needs thicker skin.

Actually, one of the first lessons in sales school is don't piss off you customer, and if you do, it's your fault for pissing them off, not their fault for not having a thicker skin. Having a thick skin isn't a pre-requisite for buying something off someone.

Biased perception of looking for things that might not even be there. But I agree that you probably were treated differently I just don't agree that this is a big deal.

As I said earlier on "it doesn't affect me, so how could it possibly be a problem, and why should I possibly care about it". Again, I intend to have some fun with the fact that you don't seem to care about getting poor treatment.

Oh - and glad to see that you are actually (grudgingly) acknowledging that I just might have the capacity to correctly perceive the world around me.

Like I said if almost every woman that goes into the shop is clueless it's going to make an impression.

And if every black person - oh, wait, we can't go there, because that would be racist. But saying the same thing about women couldn't possibly be sexist.

The key to not being X-ist is that you treat every individual as an individual, and you do not allow previous experience of people in category X to colour how you approach this person.

You can make as big of a deal out of it as you want to. Personally I wouldn't.

I have to wonder just how much it affects you.

People will assume things about you for all kinds of reasons.

What do you think people assume about you? I know you are male - what do people assume that means? Is there nothing about what people assume about you because you are male that pisses you off? If so, good for you, because it seems to me that this forum is full of men who are pissed off about many aspects of how men are perceived and treated as a group. It is the same for women.

Who cares everyone just deals with as a normal part of life, not really something to get upset about.

Can I quote you on that the next time a man comes on here complaining about the latest anti-male advertisment?

If a man was to be waiting around a playground I'm sure assumptions would be made.

OK - so that's not one that pisses you off. Can you not accept that it would piss off a man who is there to pick up his kids?

There are many subjects a male would talked to about, say for example childcare. Prove that your not clueless and there isn't a problem.

There is if you don't get a fair chance at proving you aren't clueless because of preconcieved notions of what men interested in children is actually about.

deirdre_dub

irishh_bob wrote: »

woody allen couldnt write dialogue that neurotic

I'm neurotic?! A 10-year-old child could write a stupider comeback than that.

SugarHigh

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I'm neurotic?! A 10-year-old child could write a stupider comeback than that.

That sentence doesn't mean what you think it does.:D

irishh_bob

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I'm neurotic?! A 10-year-old child could write a stupider comeback than that.

you just percieve it to be stupid

deirdre_dub

SugarHigh wrote: »

That sentence doesn't mean what you think it does.:D

OT - but I'll bite - what do you think I think it means?

When you are ready - read the correct answer here. Of course a 10 year old could write a stupider comeback - 10 year olds aren't at good at writing comebacks! In other words, my comeback was an example of the kind of stupid comeback that some people engage in on this site. I still think that irishh_bob's comeback was stupider than mine, though.

Otis Driftwood

Need I remind you that if you have an issue with a post,use the report button.No more of this childish sniping please.

CDfm

How come this stuff always comes down to stereotypes as opposed to facts ? Probably cos Frontline has the same guests with the same agenda's that we hear all the time.

Did these guys contribute

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Irish Examiner - Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 10:41 AM [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Men's help group opens outreach clinic in Navan[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

Efforts to help male victims of domestic abuse are being stepped up.
AMEN is opening its first outreach clinic for men who need support but who cannot travel to the group's office in Navan, Co Meath.
AMEN offers a confidential helpline and information service for men who have suffered physical, emotional and psychological abuse - as well as for their children.
The outreach service will be held every Tuesday in Dolphin House, Family Law District Court Office, Dublin 2 from 1.30pm until 4pm.

Or were the court service asked why the service is available now at the Court House.

Or did anyone ask why that in primary teaching the prediction is that male primary teachers will have died out and reached Zero by 2040

http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/GenderImbalancePrimaryTeaching.pdf

(My mother is a retired remedial teacher & principal reckons it is not a gender intelligence thing but that guys and girls mature differently and it evens out by 21 or so -so she is for differential entry requirements.)

Did anyone discuss the impact of service delivery in our health service with the increase in women doctors or parental leave. As a career option for women , it allows career breaks and flexible work practices but does not for their male partners -which would be sensible.

( I once heard ex TD Dr Jim McDaid say he did not want to discuss the issue of the impact of women doctors on the health service as it is verbotem)

Was there any discussion on the impact of divorce on farms and rural life ?


Was there discussion on male homelessness post seperation or divorce ?

Was there any discussion on the numbers of lesbian families with children & their lack of support? Did anyone question the gender & orientation allocation of resourses.

I am not having a pop at women here -but it seems to me that the debates are being "framed" (the agenda's set) by the interest groups and usual panelists as opposed to discussing real issues. John Waters is a nice guy but his repetoire is a bit limited & his co-parent status gives him celebrity.

I switch off these type of TV debates as they are soundbite central and a waste of my time.

Jesus Wept

I don't buy into this girls mature faster than boys stuff.

CDfm

The-Rigger wrote: »

I don't buy into this girls mature faster than boys stuff.

She is not an education professor but she says that in her day when the preparatory school system operated was there for primary teaching ( basically dedicated schools preparing kids for the training colleges) that at entry level at ages of around 18 or 19 you had a difference in results just like you see now along gender lines from schools taught the same way & that at exit between 21 or 22 on exit from teacher training college those differences had disappeared.

Somehow the guys caught up etc and she cannot explain it any other way than age and maturity and the onset and completion of puberty.

Everything else was the same and constant except the ages of the students. Its an observation and not a theory but that it somehow ironed itself out. She does not know why and she does believe that the teaching system is efficient.

I dont know if she is right or wrong but its an observation she made and there may not be anything in it .

It may be that women believe they cant break in to and suceeed in politics for the same reasons they believe that about big league accountancy.

ttps://www.charteredaccountants.ie/General/News-and-Events/News1/2009/September/Thought-provoking-Book-about-Women-in-Accountancy-Launched-by-Joan-Burton-TD/

I dont really buy that about running for political office I think some of the brighter ones choose their route to the top of gender politics -but if enough people believe the glass ceiling as per the Minority Report -it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

There was a thread on Quotas in politics

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056199332&page=12

metrovelvet

I havent read the whole thread sorry.

This issue gets confused in Ireland. Because there are so many cul de sacs and glass ceilings for so many people in the nepotistic, feudal and classist country run by gombeen men, its hard to point to it being exclusively gender related, though I dont think being a woman helps, not just professionally but reporting a rape or getting taken seriously.

James Jones

CDfm wrote: »

How come this stuff always comes down to stereotypes as opposed to facts ? Probably cos Frontline has the same guests with the same agenda's that we hear all the time.

Not always the same guests with the same agenda. For example, there were two blokes on from the Mens Support Groups of Ireland who I hadn't seen on the Frontline before. Also, a straw poll conducted during the break indicated that only 7 of the audience agreed with gender quotas, so it's not always the same faces with the same agendas.
I was asked myself following a letter I wrote in the Irish Times but I declined. Haven't been asked before.

iptba

I read something before that by 29, the difference in maturity between the genders disappeared.

CDfm

James Jones wrote: »

Not always the same guests with the same agenda. For example, there were two blokes on from the Mens Support Groups of Ireland who I hadn't seen on the Frontline before.

Whaaa Willie O'Dea didn't show up.:D

What I meant was a non debate like gender quota's occurs that goes nowhere and there are real tamgible issues there that do not need legislating for but need acknowledging.

Its good to see new blood getting airtime.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

What I meant was a non debate like gender quota's occurs that goes nowhere and there are real tamgible issues there that do not need legislating for but need acknowledging.

I can understand why you might like to see other issues highlighted.

However, I wouldn't consider "gender quotas" a non-issue - it is not unlikely that some sort of penalities for having male candidates will be introduced in the lifetime of this government.

CDfm

They cant just legislate can they -this stuff would need a constitutional amendment -would it not ?

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

They cant just legislate can they -this stuff would need a constitutional amendment -would it not ?

I think the way they are planning on doing it is that the money parties get from the State will be dependent on the percentages. It probably "should" (in a fair society) need a constitutional ammendment but that doesn't mean it will. One might think that imposing liabilities on individuals for living with people should, in a "fair" society, require a vote but that isn't what happened.

I wonder if there was a law that parties had to have a certain number of people of particular races or a party got less money if it had more people of a similar race, would that be seen as acceptable.

CDfm

They have had severalideas that on the advice of the Attorney General they scrapped

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

They have had severalideas that on the advice of the Attorney General they scrapped

I'm guessing you mean in general rather than on gender quotas specifically.

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

I'm guessing you mean in general rather than on gender quotas specifically.

The state boards for a start & when was there gender equality in worker director appointments by the Unions.

It is just another form of political patronage in disguise.

I always wondered what Deirdre Purcell the writer & broadcaster was doing on the board of the Central Bank ?

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

The state boards for a start & when was there gender equality in worker director appointments by the Unions.

It is just another form of political patronage in disguise.

I always wondered what Deirdre Purcell the writer & broadcaster was doing on the board of the Central Bank ?

They actually have gender targets for State boards.

And the Programme for Government suggests they may get more strict on the issue:

We will take steps to ensure that all State boards have at least 40% of each gender.

goose2005

iptba wrote: »

I think the way they are planning on doing it is that the money parties get from the State will be dependent on the percentages. It probably "should" (in a fair society) need a constitutional ammendment but that doesn't mean it will. One might think that imposing liabilities on individuals for living with people should, in a "fair" society, require a vote but that isn't what happened.

I wonder if there was a law that parties had to have a certain number of people of particular races or a party got less money if it had more people of a similar race, would that be seen as acceptable.

Not to mention age - half of Irish citizens are under 35, but only a handful of TDs are. And there are no black, traveller, Hindu or Muslim TDs. There are many overrepresented groups (lawyers, farmers, publicans, teachers, children of previous TDs) and underrepresented (scientists, working-class). If we want a parliament that's genuinely representative of the population, why can't we go beyond gender quotas?

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

They actually have gender targets for State boards.

And the Programme for Government suggests they may get more strict on the issue:

That should happen and no more namby pamby state boards is good but a making up the numbers game is bad.

I can think of a number of gifted women without political connections that would dynamically shake up a number of areas.

Nolanger

Does anyone else think that because they want a quota for getting women into the TOP jobs and don't care about quotas for the middle-earning professions that the next generation of young men will be ruined from having no male teachers in their schools?

iptba

Nolanger wrote: »

Does anyone else think that because they want a quota for getting women into the TOP jobs and don't care about quotas for the middle-earning professions that the next generation of young men will be ruined from having no male teachers in their schools?

I think it is far from ideal that there is a reducing amount of male teachers in schools (the problem is particularly acute in primary schools) particularly at this time with so many single parents esp. where the father is not involved in the child's life - some children may have relatively little exposure to adult men. But even beside the loan parents issue, it is probably good to have a reasonable amount of men in schools. I've heard some mothers complain about the lack of male teachers.