Civil Engineer Wages Question

Turbulent Bill

EI used to publish a regular (annual?) salary survey, which broke down earnings by member grade etc., not sure if there was a recent one.

At a guess the salary range for a CEng (who might be at management or company owner level) would vary by more than an ordinary member (who mainly just have technical roles).

Seán_B

yourpics wrote: »

Back on topic...

Séan, what sort of money can a chartered engineer expect??

As Turbulent Bill notes, CEng salaries will vary wildly with experience, position and scale of their company.

fat__tony

godtabh wrote: »

Engineers Ireland havent increased membership fees for about 3 ears if I'm not mistaken

You'll have to excuse me if this is slightly off-topic but I find the Engineers Ireland membership fees ridicuously expensive, 255 euro for an ordinary member is a disgrace in the current climate even for the fortunate few that are still working.

I won't be renewing my membership as they don't provide any value to me as an engineer and my profession.

Im currently a member of both the Chartered Institute of Building Services Engineers (CIBSE)and the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) and membership fees of both these organisations combined are cheaper than Engineers Ireland.

Both are excellent Institutions and provide valuable support for continuing professional development.

C.D.

fat__tony wrote: »

You'll have to excuse me if this is slightly off-topic but I find the Engineers Ireland membership fees ridicuously expensive, 255 euro for an ordinary member is a disgrace in the current climate even for the fortunate few that are still working.

I won't be renewing my membership as they don't provide any value to me as an engineer and my profession.

Im currently a member of both the Chartered Institute of Building Services Engineers (CIBSE)and the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) and membership fees of both these organisations combined are cheaper than Engineers Ireland.

Both are excellent Institutions and provide valuable support for continuing professional development.

Quite OT, but I second this- I work in the medical device industry for a big MNC who will pay the fees, but I wouldn't ask them to as I see it as a waste.

1) I do not feel we are adequately represented. The regulation of the term "Engineer" is a sticking point for me.

2) I do not feel the profession is promoted enough by EI- sure we have maths week and a few other things but 95% of people I know do not know what an Engineer does.. they think I fix washing machines (see above).

3) I feel the publications and body as a whole are geared towards our Civil counterparts.

yourpics

Seán_B wrote: »

As Turbulent Bill notes, CEng salaries will vary wildly with experience, position and scale of their company.

I think we have answered my original question now so I see no harm in going slightly off-topic.

Séan what do you, as an EI member and chartered engineer, suggest for the civil engineers who are currently unemployed? I would happily labour on a site as there is a great deal to be seen/learned on site but any sort of construction job is impossible to find!! Emigration isn't really an option in my particular case.
A prolonged period of unemployment is obviously no good for getting chartered down the line!

Seán_B

Sorry for the delay in replying.

My answer would depend heavily on the engineer's experience level, personal and financial comittments.

For example, a recently graduated engineer living at home with no dependants or significant financial outgoings, I would suggest they should investigate the WPP from Fas in order to build experierence while retaining social welfare support. Also, I would recommend they look at post graduate study.

If however, if the engineer in question is grad + 5/6 with a mortgage/children then my advice would be very different. It's hard not to suggest emigration in this case, perhaps to the uk with regular commutes home. Otherwise, they would seriously need to research an alternative career which utilizes as many of the strengths of an engineer at this level.

Unfortunately there is no 'one size fits all' solution but in general, it is important to try and stay engaged with engineering even if out of work. Read EI journal, attend seminars and talks if possible. Keep a record and this will show your commitment to CPD (with respect to achieving CEng). Not only this will it keep you in the loop and in my opinion help to keep maintain a positive mental outlook. It is easy to fall into sleeping in, stop checking online job sites or sending out CVs. I found that exercise/hobbies/routine can structure your day if out of work and helps you to stay positive and keeping trying to find employment.

I hope this is of some help,

Seán.

yourpics

Thanks for the reply Séan. I had considered a WPP but its hard to justify working a full week for an extra 20e especially after going to the expense of an education!!

apoeiguq3094y

yourpics wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Séan. I had considered a WPP but its hard to justify working a full week for an extra 20e especially after going to the expense of an education!!

That is absolutely disgraceful. You are living off other peoples tax, people that can ill afford the high taxes, and here you spurn the idea of doing some work in return for your social welfare and the opportunity to further your education.

I hope any prospective employers see your lazy attitude. People aren't going to knock on your door with jobs, so you should be out there trying to improve your chances.

And who paid for your education... perhaps the Irish taxpayer paid for your fees.....

Absolute ffffing disgrace.

yourpics

apoeiguq3094y wrote: »

That is absolutely disgraceful. You are living off other peoples tax, people that can ill afford the high taxes, and here you spurn the idea of doing some work in return for your social welfare and the opportunity to further your education.

I hope any prospective employers see your lazy attitude. People aren't going to knock on your door with jobs, so you should be out there trying to improve your chances.

And who paid for your education... perhaps the Irish taxpayer paid for your fees.....

Absolute ffffing disgrace.

I paid for my own education which was in the UK, no expense to the irish tax payer.
I am a tax payer and i paid a substantial amount of tax when i was working. I paid more tax than i am now receiving back in social welfare. It takes all my social welfare to exist each week.

I am out trying to improve my chances and i have applied for every type of job including jobs that others would quickly shun. My point is a fair wage for fair work.

2011

yourpics wrote: »

I had considered a WPP but its hard to justify working a full week for an extra 20e especially after going to the expense of an education!!

No its not! It is not about the extra €20

I graduated 2 years ago and have been employed full time ever since.
The only reason that I have this job is because I worked for a small wage during the summers when I was a student on a WPP.

godtabh

Experience is key.

Without experience you have nothing.

I dont believe in working for free. I also dont believe that some one on the dole should pass up opportunities on the WPP.

I believe that the WPP offers 9 months experience. I would rather employee some one with an attitude to get that experience through the WPP. Once gained you can think look for a more permanent position (often an extension of the WPP program) were you will get paid what the company can afford.

Last warning on off topic posts. Next time its a ban.

apoeiguq3094y

godtabh wrote: »

Experience is key.

Without experience you have nothing.

I dont believe in working for free. I also dont believe that some one on the dole should pass up opportunities on the WPP.

I believe that the WPP offers 9 months experience. I would rather employee some one with an attitude to get that experience through the WPP. Once gained you can think look for a more permanent position (often an extension of the WPP program) were you will get paid what the company can afford.

With so many graduates being churned out every year, experience is going to be more important, especially in a month or so when we get a new raft of graduates.

Regulation of the industry is something that should be looked at. The word "engineer" does not have the same boundaries as "solicitor", "pharmacist" etc. Anyone from a plumber to a fitter to a handyman type builder uses the title engineer. If there were restrictions on use of the title, through accredited qualifications or EI membership level, I think the problem of a minimum wage would solve itself.

dan_d

The problem I have is that I am looking at a WPP while having fairly extensive experience. I need to do something.

But there's just nothing else out there.

I look at salaries in the UK - they're about 35k to 40k (give or take) for my level (5 years), which as far as I'm aware, is what was being paid here 2 years ago. I've friends in Canada being paid 45 -50k (those numbers are Euro, btw). Here...well, you take what you get here at this stage, and be glad for it.

I wholeheartedly agree about the protection of the title engineer. It's done in a whole lot of other countries. I think it would also go a long way to contributing to wage levels. Employers' perceptions of what an engineer is would (eventually) change, hopefully leading to an overall change in attitude to the profession. If I had a euro for every time I heard "sure what do we need an engineer for..." or "I didn't have to go to college for 4 years to learn that" - I'd be very wealthy!

apoeiguq3094y

dan_d wrote: »

The problem I have is that I am looking at a WPP while having fairly extensive experience. I need to do something.

But there's just nothing else out there.

I look at salaries in the UK - they're about 35k to 40k (give or take) for my level (5 years), which as far as I'm aware, is what was being paid here 2 years ago. I've friends in Canada being paid 45 -50k (those numbers are Euro, btw). Here...well, you take what you get here at this stage, and be glad for it.

I think its easy to remember the stories of high wages overseas and forget the low wages ones, but we do seem to be on the low end of the scale.

dan_d wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree about the protection of the title engineer. It's done in a whole lot of other countries. I think it would also go a long way to contributing to wage levels. Employers' perceptions of what an engineer is would (eventually) change, hopefully leading to an overall change in attitude to the profession. If I had a euro for every time I heard "sure what do we need an engineer for..." or "I didn't have to go to college for 4 years to learn that" - I'd be very wealthy!

I think EI could do a lot to help people understand what engineers do. People always go on about how useless engineers are until they realise that their new extension is so badly built that their house insurance is no longer valid.

godtabh

The word "engineer" will be protected. It takes time but from what I know the Malahide bridge collapse has opened the governments eyes as to what it means to be an engineer.

Its not just knowing what you learned in college but its the behavior associated with actually applying it correctly.

I dont like when people say in Ireland you get X, in America you get Y and England you get Z. There are so many variables that arent taken into account. Having worked in each of these countries I know first hand experience that in Manchester you might get paid the same as here but the cost of living is more expensive or that in America you might be on $50k graduate salary but you only get 10 days leave and work from 7 in the morning to 6 i the evening 5 days a week because thats the norm.

At the end of the day what you get paid now and in the future will depend on the economy. I read an interesting article from SISK. They say that the construction industry is cyclical and that Ireland lags behind the world economy. Construction is also related to GDP with the dip in the construction industry reflected the same dip in GDP. These years were the mid 80's, mid 90's and now. All times of poor wages.

They are predicting that the we have hit bottom and thinks will turn around next year but no wear near the levels it was at. Expect a similar story if your salaries (if you are lucky enough to have one).

Noo

Civil Engineering graduate here on a WPP. After i graduated in 2010 i spent 8 months looking for work, waste of time to the honest but i guess i was an optimist but never got any replies, then decidied to take the WPP route, within a week i got 5 interviews!

So i'm here now, working full weeks and gaining experience while the majority of my former classmates are still unemployed. The company has me doing civil, structural, surveying, and loads more. A great opportunity to find an area I want to focus on in the future. I get my €188 a week from welfare, i have to pay rent with it but i'm not struggling financially so I cant see how this is not a benefit to me. If work picks up over the next few years who would have a better chance me or my former classmates? I just cant stand how people criticise the WPP and complain about it being slavery etc (maybe not here but on other threads) just because it many not be helpful to their profession, but its the best thing going for engineering graduates and realistically the only chance many of them have at any gaining experience in this country.

aquascrotum

dan_d wrote: »

I look at salaries in the UK - they're about 35k to 40k (give or take) for my level (5 years)

Any links to these £40k a year jobs in the UK for 5 yrs experience? I can only assume you've only looked at the salary bubble in London - that number is (in my experience) very optimistic elsewhere in the UK, particularly on the consulting engineer side.

I'd also agree with all the sentiments w.r.t. the WPP program. Get any experience you can. It's experience that shows you have a good attitude to work and personal development, and it saves your brain from going to mush from sitting watching daytime TV in between firing out CV's.

Turbulent Bill

godtabh wrote: »

At the end of the day what you get paid now and in the future will depend on the economy. I read an interesting article from SISK. They say that the construction industry is cyclical and that Ireland lags behind the world economy. Construction is also related to GDP with the dip in the construction industry reflected the same dip in GDP. These years were the mid 80's, mid 90's and now. All times of poor wages.

They are predicting that the we have hit bottom and thinks will turn around next year but no wear near the levels it was at. Expect a similar story if your salaries (if you are lucky enough to have one).

It's in Sisk's interests (as a large contractor) to talk up the chances of a recovery, even if the evidence doesn't suggest it. I'd say the construction/GDP link is true during natural economic cycles, but we're in a very deep recession coupled with massive debt, bank issues, lots of surplus property and a shrinking capital budget.

I'd guess a small increase in construction activity is possible next year, but not enough to suck up all the unemployed engineers, let alone lead to salary increases.

dan_d

aquascrotum wrote: »

Any links to these £40k a year jobs in the UK for 5 yrs experience? I can only assume you've only looked at the salary bubble in London - that number is (in my experience) very optimistic elsewhere in the UK, particularly on the consulting engineer side.

I'd also agree with all the sentiments w.r.t. the WPP program. Get any experience you can. It's experience that shows you have a good attitude to work and personal development, and it saves your brain from going to mush from sitting watching daytime TV in between firing out CV's.

Problem being that I have quite a lot of experience, but as you say, I'd rather be out doing something.Mind you I haven't heard back from them so...:(

http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Civil-Structural-PDMS-design-engineer-Job-London-London-UK-98804026.aspx
http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Senior-Structural-Engineer-Job-London-London-UK-99501004.aspx

Links above. They're just a couple of the jobs I was looking at. I do agree that number is very optimistic. I was looking in London as it would be handy for travelling over and back if it came to that, from Dublin. However doing the Maths - ie, the cost of rent over there, living over there, mortgage over here, living (briefly!) over here has led me to conclude there's not much point in going over there. Unless myself and the OH were both going and that's not happening right now.

Lu Tze

Noo wrote: »

Civil Engineering graduate here on a WPP. After i graduated in 2010 i spent 8 months looking for work, waste of time to the honest but i guess i was an optimist but never got any replies, then decidied to take the WPP route, within a week i got 5 interviews!

So i'm here now, working full weeks and gaining experience while the majority of my former classmates are still unemployed. The company has me doing civil, structural, surveying, and loads more. A great opportunity to find an area I want to focus on in the future. I get my €188 a week from welfare, i have to pay rent with it but i'm not struggling financially so I cant see how this is not a benefit to me. If work picks up over the next few years who would have a better chance me or my former classmates? I just cant stand how people criticise the WPP and complain about it being slavery etc (maybe not here but on other threads) just because it many not be helpful to their profession, but its the best thing going for engineering graduates and realistically the only chance many of them have at any gaining experience in this country.

That is a fantastic outlook. I think any employer would view the WPP involvement as a positive in the selection process.

With regard to the wage question, when i get back to Ireland at the end of the year, if i can get a job, which is unlikely, i would be expecting no more than 25k salary, and would accept less than that to keep working. That's well below my starting salary 5 years ago as a raw graduate.

Its obviously easier for those of us with no financial obligations, but that isn't something that should factor in salary levels.

The likelyhood though is that the UK will provide me with my next job, and my salary expectations will be even lower.

aquascrotum

dan_d wrote: »

http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Civil-Structural-PDMS-design-engineer-Job-London-London-UK-98804026.aspx
http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Senior-Structural-Engineer-Job-London-London-UK-99501004.aspx

Looking at those jobs, a few things jump out.

Both London, so both London salaries (probably a good 20% higher than an equivalent position outside SE England).

First one is oil and gas - petrochemical industry always seems to have a higher salary band (if you have that experience then happy days!).

Second one is advertising for a senior engineer but the agency has asked for 2+yrs experience. Thats crossed wires methinks.

If you're looking at UK jobs, count on a fair degree of ineptitude/bareface lying if dealing with recruitment agencies. The number of times London agencies told me a salary expectation that made my jaw drop, promised me the earth, and then never heard from them again is a joke. And that was a couple of years ago when the Olympics project was at panic recruitment stage.

For what its worth, I've 7yrs quite specialised civil consultancy experience, chartered review next month, in the UK market and am on sub £30k. And I'm doing well, cos I've had a pay rise the last 2 years when most of my peers are in companies who aren't doing well (we're bucking the trend and are growing), are on pay freezes / cuts and are clinging onto jobs for dear life.

dan_d

UK Companies are in the same position?

I've been told for 2 years now that the UK is the new Holy Grail, there's loads of work there. But I held off. For numerous reasons - mainly personal ones - and also financial ones (it just didn't make any sense to go over when I worked the sums out). At this stage, I can't help thinking that the UK has a saturation point too, and it must be nearly reached. The Olympics is next year - that's a huge pipeline of work that's almost dried up, really. So it would appear to me that I'm as well to just retrain here, or emigrate elsewhere. But myself and the OH have felt all along that if we have to consider emigration it has to be both of us going, making a clean break - as I said, the sums don't work out if one of us remains here and we end up maintaining 2 living places, one in each country.

I take your advice Aquascrotum, because you are, to an extent, confirming what I already knew/expected, and also because our decision has been made and we will not be re-locating to the UK. If we go, it'll be much further afield.

godtabh

There are only a regions in the UK that are doing well. London with the olympics is the man one. Decent wages but you have to take into account living in London?

My fromer company in Manchester has closed one office. Merged another two and let about 40% off staff go from a high off about 400

dan_d

Yeah, renting in London plus paying the bills (mortgages, insurance) for the house here, swallow up about 60% of wages. Add in food, transport, electricity, flights.....I'd be left with about 100eur a month, if even.Hence - not a viable option.

As I said, it's only worth it if we both go and cut ties here completely. And if that happens, the UK is not our destination of choice. Didn't realise the UK companies had been hit so badly too though, the impression I got from speaking to everyone is that it's great over there for civil engineers - no problem getting a job.