The State Of Modern Day Football For Supporters Of The Smaller Clubs

Paully D

I'm just in the mood to rant (after reading a similar one on another forum) and supporters of the bigger clubs will probably tell me to **** off, but here goes:

To all you supporters of the ''smaller'' clubs, how do you feel about modern day football? I love football, I'd watch it 24/7 if I could and very often do at weekends. I've been brought up on it, so much so that Sunderland AFC are a massive part of not only my day-to-day life, but my family life too. However, lately I find myself becoming more and more disillusioned with the game.

I think money has completely destroyed the game. Could say, Brian Clough take charge of a club like Derby or Nottingham Forest these days and take them to top division and European honours. Not a chance IMO and he'd probably need over £80m + to establish them as a middle of the road Premier League club.

Back in the day teams like Forest and Villa could win the European Cup, Norwich could challenge for Premier League honours and Ipswich could win the UEFA Cup. There's other examples too.

What do the smaller clubs have to aim for these days? The top 4 are sown up now for the next 10 years at least, even add in an odd year when one might miss out and you have the same old sides in 5th or 6th who'll just swap and normal parity will be restored the following year. It seems any club outside of the top 6 in the Premier League should just be happy to be there, and any club in the lower leagues that comes up now won't stay up for long if they don't spend money, and clubs in the lower leagues that do come up are constantly yo-yo'ing between divisons. If you any decent youth players they're picked up by the big boys so even a top youth academy is no advantage. The big clubs keep getting all the money and success whilst the rest fight it out for mid table.

It seems smaller clubs have nothing but a good cup run to aim for as the league is a closed shop.

I know many on here support the big clubs and will have grown up watching their side being successful so will probably tell me to **** off or say it's tough ****, but personally I'd love to see football implode and things go back to the way they were back in the day where even supporters of the smallest club could have realistic thoughts of having some success in the future.

It's all too predictable these days IMO

TheBigLebowski

Success is relative. Id be happy if rovers get a good run in Europe. They don't have to win the champions league for it to be considered a success. I'd be happy with just the semis

Raskolnikov

Paully D wrote: »

I think money has completely destroyed the game. Could say, Brian Clough take charge of a club like Derby or Nottingham Forest these days and take them to top division and European honours. Not a chance IMO and he'd probably need over £80m + to establish them as a middle of the road Premier League club.

Disagree completely.

In 2004, Mourinho took a team of journeymen who had never done a thing in their careers, to winning the UEFA Cup and Champions League. The team that won the Champions League wasn't exactly a Golden Generation either, guys like Paulo Ferreira, Nuno Valente, Pedro Mendes, and Derlei did feck all before, or after their time at Porto (ok, Ferreira did win a few Premier League titles, but he was mostly a backup/rotation player). I even remember Carlos Alberto scoring a goal in the Champions League final - you think a player who scored a goal in the Champions League final would be hot property - quite frankly, I have no idea where this guy went.

I still think that any club can get lucky, although you need the right group of players, the right coach, and a bit of luck.

Paully D

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Success is relative. Id be happy if rovers get a good run in Europe. They don't have to win the champions league for it to be considered a success. I'd be happy with just the semis

That's part of my point to be honest.

For example, I'm sure Blackpool supporters are be happy just to be in the Premier League, but the best they're ever going to achieve in the next say 5-10 years is mid-table. They're never going break into the top 6 and the same can be said for 12 + other teams in the Premier League too. How monotonous is that?

The top echelon is a closed shop now and won't be breached, where as years ago the likes of Norwich could make a title challenge.

Zebra3

Paully D wrote: »

Could say, Brian Clough take charge of a club like Derby or Nottingham Forest these days and take them to top division and European honours.

Eh, no.

He died a few years ago.

grenache

Hopefully this new ruling from UEFA limiting the spending of the bigger clubs financed by millionaires will help level things out a bit. I think we'll see the likes of Spurs, Everton and Newcastle seriously challenge the top 3 in the coming years. However this is probably the best we can hope for. Money has made it an unequal playing pitch so the days of Forest and Villa winning European Cups is well and truly in the past. More's the pity really.

Mister men

The game is corrupt to it's very soul. Players,managers,officials, owners etc.. Smaller clubs don't stand a chance in every aspect unless they get a billionaire owner. It must be very disheartening to watch a club like say West Ham produce quality player after quality player only for them to be sold to the big guns once said player looks half decent.

I used to love everything about football but when you see the carry on of clowns like Gerrard, Rooney, Barton etc.. it all get's a bit meh tbh.

CiaranC

Some bizarre notions of what constitutes a "smaller club" on here

ShooterSF

CiaranC wrote: »

Some bizarre notions of what constitutes a "smaller club" on here

How so? Are Blackpool, Blackburn or Sunderland not smaller clubs than Man Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea?

flahavaj

Size is relative.

At least thats what I keep telling myself.:pac:

mormank

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Disagree completely.

In 2004, Mourinho took a team of journeymen who had never done a thing in their careers, to winning the UEFA Cup and Champions League. The team that won the Champions League wasn't exactly a Golden Generation either, guys like Paulo Ferreira, Nuno Valente, Pedro Mendes, and Derlei did feck all before, or after their time at Porto (ok, Ferreira did win a few Premier League titles, but he was mostly a backup/rotation player). I even remember Carlos Alberto scoring a goal in the Champions League final - you think a player who scored a goal in the Champions League final would be hot property - quite frankly, I have no idea where this guy went.

I still think that any club can get lucky, although you need the right group of players, the right coach, and a bit of luck.

I see your point but im pretty sure the OP was referring to domestic football in england really. Outside of maybe 7 or 8 teams in the PL right now how many teams out of the hundreds in english football can expect to ever get into the champion's league for example?

The OP is right in what he is saying here. The romance is gone from football and has been replaced by something alot more sinister. Fifa are at the very centre of the issue with football these days as far as I can see.

You are right tho, of course a smaller team already in the champion's league can win a few games and have a good run and maybe even win the thing but domestic teams in the bottom half of the PL and below have no chance of success as we supporters of bigger teams would perceive it.

FWIW, OP I would be disillusioned with football too if I supported Sunderland!!!

CiaranC

ShooterSF wrote: »

How so? Are Blackpool, Blackburn or Sunderland not smaller clubs than Man Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea?

Pretty much all of the hundreds of professional football clubs in the world meet that description. Reading the OP again its clear he means the smaller clubs in the EPL.

d22ontour

mormank wrote: »

You are right tho, of course a smaller team already in the champion's league can win a few games and have a good run and maybe even win the thing but domestic teams in the bottom half of the PL and below have no chance of success as we supporters of bigger teams would perceive it.

If Blackpool were to finish 15th for example, that would equate to United/Arsenal or Chelsea winning the league for them.Different clubs have different goals,just because they are 'smaller' their ambitions and goals should be relative to their capabilities.
Brum have won the league cup this season which exceeds anything they could have hoped for but staying up is their ambition, if they succeed then they have surpassed what they set out to do and then some.

losthorizon

CiaranC wrote: »

Some bizarre notions of what constitutes a "smaller club" on here

I agree totally. People have just picked a big foreign team who are are shades of a degree smallerr than the Man Us or The Liverpools of this World to make themselves feel different when they in fact arent. I thought this was going to be about Sligo Rovers or maybe the great Honved or Koblenz in the German regional third division. My solution: go and actually support a real club. Its much more satisfying. Its like the difference between a blow up doll and the real thing. Sorry.

Guy:Incognito

Paully D wrote: »

I think money has completely destroyed the game. Could say, Brian Clough take charge of a club like Derby or Nottingham Forest these days and take them to top division and European honours. Not a chance IMO and he'd probably need over £80m + to establish them as a middle of the road Premier League club.

Did Clough do that with the same squad he took over? Or did he strenghthen?

Paully D wrote: »

Ipswich could win the UEFA Cup. There's other examples too.

Yeah like Fulham being in the UEFA cup final last year.




Would this thread exist if Roman Abramovich bought Sunderland instead of Chelsea or likewise with Sheik Mansour(sp?) and City?

stovelid

Sounds more like a rant from a big club currently shut out of the cosy CL/League winner cartel to me.

Supporters of actual "small clubs" don't measure success by Champions League dividends.

DB10

stovelid wrote: »

Sounds more like a rant from a big club currently shut out of the cosy CL/League winner cartel to me.

Supporters of actual "small clubs" don't measure success by Champions League dividends.

Jeez do you LOI fanatics ever give it up?

The league is a **** Dublin based laughing stock. Fairly embarrassing the constant sniping and dick measuring you get involved in.

stovelid

DB10 wrote: »

Jeez do you LOI fanatics ever give it up?

The league is a **** Dublin based laughing stock. Fairly embarrassing the constant sniping and dick measuring you get involved in.

What the fuck has this got to do with the LOI? The thread is about big clubs/small clubs in England.

d22ontour

DB10 wrote: »

Jeez do you LOI fanatics ever give it up?

The league is a **** Dublin based laughing stock.

stovelid

d22ontour wrote: »

Not adequate..

http://www.pown.it/3209/13923084

DB10

losthorizon wrote: »

I agree totally. People have just picked a big foreign team who are are shades of a degree smallerr than the Man Us or The Liverpools of this World to make themselves feel different when they in fact arent. I thought this was going to be about Sligo Rovers or maybe the great Honved or Koblenz in the German regional third division. My solution: go and actually support a real club. Its much more satisfying. Its like the difference between a blow up doll and the real thing. Sorry.

This your mate stovelid. :rolleyes:

greendom

Football has changed out of recognition from the days of Brian Clough and yes it is due to Sky and the unbelievable amounts of money involved. The EPL, especially at the higher reaches, has ceased to be an English game but is now truly international, attracting the best players and managers and wealthiest owners that want to be associated with the game at the highest level

Iago

losthorizon wrote: »

I agree totally. People have just picked a big foreign team who are are shades of a degree smallerr than the Man Us or The Liverpools of this World to make themselves feel different when they in fact arent. I thought this was going to be about Sligo Rovers or maybe the great Honved or Koblenz in the German regional third division. My solution: go and actually support a real club. Its much more satisfying. Its like the difference between a blow up doll and the real thing. Sorry.

No need to be sorry, your ignorance may know no bounds but at least it's clear for all to see.

stovelid

DB10 wrote: »

This your mate stovelid. :rolleyes:

I'm not really one for making friends with emoticons, no.

CiaranC

Iago wrote: »

No need to be sorry, your ignorance may know no bounds but at least it's clear for all to see.

Reported.

Clearly the opinions of supporters of smaller clubs on modern day football are not welcome in this thread about the state of modern day football for supporters of smaller clubs

Iago

CiaranC wrote: »

Reported.

Clearly the opinions of supporters of smaller clubs on modern day football are not welcome in this thread about the state of modern day football for supporters of smaller clubs

Ignorance in any form isn't welcome in any thread in this forum.

gustavo

Iago wrote: »

Ignorance in any form isn't welcome in any thread in this forum.

A bit of self regulation wouldn't go astray so

CiaranC

Iago wrote: »

Ignorance in any form isn't welcome in any thread in this forum.

You clearly have some kind of chip on your shoulder. If you have nothing to add to the discussion, kindly remove yourself from the thread instead of repeatedly breaking the charter in it.

--

mormank wrote:

FWIW, OP I would be disillusioned with football too if I supported Sunderland!!!

Mormank, how do you think the supporters of clubs below EPL level feel? They have no chance of Europe and now even the FA cup is well, well beyond them. Yet they still come week on week.

Similarly, German 2nd division clubs get a huge following.

I think the Irish experience is just different as the huge majority simply choose a successful team to follow to start with.

DB10

CiaranC wrote: »

You clearly have some kind of chip on your shoulder. If you have nothing to add to the discussion, kindly remove yourself from the thread instead of repeatedly breaking the charter in it.

--


Mormank, how do you think the supporters of clubs below EPL level feel? They have no chance of Europe and now even the FA cup is well, well beyond them. Yet they still come week on week.

Similarly, German 2nd division clubs get a huge following.

I think the Irish experience is just different as the huge majority simply choose a successful team to follow to start with.

I think the only people with a chip on their shoulder are the LOI hardcore, who are too mixed into an inferiority complex.

I'm sure many would be more receptive to the league if the supporters werent so hostile to outsiders.

Coillte_Bhoy

CiaranC wrote: »

Reported.

Clearly the opinions of supporters of smaller clubs on modern day football are not welcome in this thread about the state of modern day football for supporters of smaller clubs

Reporting a mod? tut tut

CiaranC

DB10 wrote: »

I think the only people with a chip on their shoulder are the LOI hardcore, who are too mixed into an inferiority complex.

I'm sure many would be more receptive to the league if the supporters werent so hostile to outsiders.

Again, this thread has nothing to do with the LOI. Certain types of fan have certain views on aspects of football culture. You will find that the average LOI fans views are largely in tandem with the views of supporters groups like the Football Supporters Federation, the Manchester United Supporters Trust, AFC Wimbledon, FC United and various other grassroots supporters groups which often pass Irish EPL supporters by. Nothing to do with the LOI.

major bill

DB10 wrote: »

Jeez do you LOI fanatics ever give it up?

The league is a **** Dublin based laughing stock. Fairly embarrassing the constant sniping and dick measuring you get involved in.

well done on making an idiot out of yourself!!!

stovelid

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Reporting a mod? tut tut

Wow, the bat signal got out quickly. Even on a Sunday afternoon.

Nalz

losthorizon wrote: »

My solution: go and actually support a real club. Its much more satisfying. Its like the difference between a blow up doll and the real thing. Sorry.

I must agree with this. Growing up in the country I played GAA as a child but soccer was and always will be my first love. When I made the move to Dublin 5 or 6 years ago I jumped on the 38 to Dalymount and since then I'm a Bohs fan. I've seen some average stuff, and I've seen them lift the title twice. But thats neither here or there.

I'm a massive Manchester United fan. Do I use my family links and history as an excuse to support the club? At the very odd occasion I ask myself that, but the answer is always no. If someone told me in the morning that it was all a lie...that my cousins were figments of my imagination and that my folks didnt live there I'd still love the club. That feeling we'll always be big and are getting more distant from other sets of fans can creep in however and eat at you.

I stand (well sit!) in Old trafford and have as much if not more affection/passion than I do at Dalymount. I love Bohs now, its more than just an interest and its more than just so I can say I support a LOI team. Its for the love of the game.

My point has side tracked from the OP question/rant... I do agree with him and it is a shame in particular the EPL. Question is can FIFA, UEFA or FA do anything about it?

stovelid

The OP had nothing to do with the LOI.

It's about the very real issue that the overwhelming majority of the football league in England - including some huge clubs - have virtually zero chance of winning anything year-in, year-out.

CiaranC

Trilla wrote: »

My point has side tracked from the OP question/rant... I do agree with him and it is a shame in particular the EPL. Question is can FIFA, UEFA or FA do anything about it?

To be fair UEFA are trying to do something about it - new funding rules, reorganising the CL so smaller nations have at least an outside chance of getting to the groups etc

major bill

Paully D wrote: »

I'm just in the mood to rant (after reading a similar one on another forum) and supporters of the bigger clubs will probably tell me to **** off, but here goes:

To all you supporters of the ''smaller'' clubs, how do you feel about modern day football? I love football, I'd watch it 24/7 if I could and very often do at weekends. I've been brought up on it, so much so that Sunderland AFC are a massive part of not only my day-to-day life, but my family life too. However, lately I find myself becoming more and more disillusioned with the game.

I think money has completely destroyed the game. Could say, Brian Clough take charge of a club like Derby or Nottingham Forest these days and take them to top division and European honours. Not a chance IMO and he'd probably need over £80m + to establish them as a middle of the road Premier League club.

Back in the day teams like Forest and Villa could win the European Cup, Norwich could challenge for Premier League honours and Ipswich could win the UEFA Cup. There's other examples too.

What do the smaller clubs have to aim for these days? The top 4 are sown up now for the next 10 years at least, even add in an odd year when one might miss out and you have the same old sides in 5th or 6th who'll just swap and normal parity will be restored the following year. It seems any club outside of the top 6 in the Premier League should just be happy to be there, and any club in the lower leagues that comes up now won't stay up for long if they don't spend money, and clubs in the lower leagues that do come up are constantly yo-yo'ing between divisons. If you any decent youth players they're picked up by the big boys so even a top youth academy is no advantage. The big clubs keep getting all the money and success whilst the rest fight it out for mid table.

It seems smaller clubs have nothing but a good cup run to aim for as the league is a closed shop.

I know many on here support the big clubs and will have grown up watching their side being successful so will probably tell me to **** off or say it's tough ****, but personally I'd love to see football implode and things go back to the way they were back in the day where even supporters of the smallest club could have realistic thoughts of having some success in the future.

It's all too predictable these days IMO

Sunderland were the 4th biggest spenders in the league in 2007...sometimes clubs need to look at the structure they have in place.

ShooterSF

CiaranC wrote: »

Pretty much all of the hundreds of professional football clubs in the world meet that description. Reading the OP again its clear he means the smaller clubs in the EPL.

I don't mean to come across insensitive but if it took you two readings of the OP's quite detailed post to realise he was talking about the EPL then that has more to do with your failure of comprehension than any ambiguity in the OP's post to be fair.

Ebbs

ShooterSF wrote: »

I don't mean to come across insensitive but if it took you two readings of the OP's quite detailed post to realise he was talking about the EPL then that has more to do with your failure of comprehension than any ambiguity in the OP's post to be fair.

He didnt mention one foreign team
He gave an EPL (Division 1) example
He used current comprasons in the EPL
He states he supports an EPL team in this situation

So while the issue is a problem in every country, the OP used the EPL as the prime target for his rant.

Paully D

major bill wrote: »

Sunderland were the 4th biggest spenders in the league in 2007...sometimes clubs need to look at the structure they have in place.

You spend money just to stay up and challenge for mid-table these days, if you don't you're not around the Premier League for long.

The other sides are already so far ahead and can't be touched.

Iago

CiaranC wrote: »

You clearly have some kind of chip on your shoulder. If you have nothing to add to the discussion, kindly remove yourself from the thread instead of repeatedly breaking the charter in it.

I've no chip on my shoulder and you could do with rereading the charter if you're so concerned with people breaking it.

There's no doubt that over the last 20 years or so the increasing amount of money at stake in and for football has had a negative impact on it, in much the same way as introducing vast sums of money into anything does. It leads to corruption and there are always a select few that manage to get into a position to take advantage of the many.

This has been more prevalent on a national level in the EPL than elsewhere and the teams that already had the biggest financial muscle have taken full advantage to such an extent that while individual games can go either way the destination of the title is pretty easy to predict. This is in small part down to the revenue available from European competition and it's been the teams that were in a position to be involved in those competitions in the early/mid 90's that are still at the top now.

The same is true in Spain, Scotland & Italy to a lesser extent whereas the Dutch & German leagues have mostly avoided it due to their particular national ideologies and the rest of the leagues in Europe (with the exception of France) haven't really been in a position to take advantage of the additional revenues available.

There's no doubt that the combination of these factors and the vast sums concerned have made football less of the popular mans game than it was, whether that's at a local level here in Dublin right up to international level at World Cups etc. Unfortunately this is unlikely to change in the short term, but given the events of the last 2-3 years on a global macro economy level I think it's only a matter of time before we start to see reducing revenues and prize money, which will in turn drive down salaries and running costs which should lead to a more even playing field for all. We've already seen greatly reduced attendances in most leagues across Europe over the last couple of years as well as a freezing of ticket prices, and this will accelerate over the next few years unless action is taken.

Coillte_Bhoy

stovelid wrote: »

Wow, the bat signal got out quickly. Even on a Sunday afternoon.

Pauleta

DB10 wrote: »

I think the only people with a chip on their shoulder are the LOI hardcore, who are too mixed into an inferiority complex.

I'm sure many would be more receptive to the league if the supporters werent so hostile to outsiders.

We have a superiority complex not an inferiority complex :pac:



Im a fan of modern football, its better than the tripe of yesteryear when the tactics were "Go out and do well lads" and kicking teams off the pitch, along with footballers with belly's and i enjoy seeing managers that evolve the game. Plus there is loads of football on TV.

DH2K9

Greece won Euro 2004.

major bill

Pauleta wrote: »

We have a superiority complex not an inferiority complex :pac:



Im a fan of modern football, its better than the tripe of yesteryear when the tactics were "Go out and do well lads" and kicking teams off the pitch, along with footballers with belly's and i enjoy seeing managers that evolve the game. Plus there is loads of football on TV.

agreed but it would kinda be nice if some team could break the old firm in scotland and a team to break real/barca's domination in spain but prob might never happen well in Scotland anyway as clubs just cant compete.


my own opinion is that uefa are making good progress in bringing the smaller clubs into play with the big boys, their newly revamped champions league/ europa qualifiers has given smaller clubs an easier passage into the groups.....weak footballing nations like Moldova,Belarus and cyprus have all had teams in the group stages in the last couple of seasons which would not have been possible 5 or 6 years ago. One thing i will say about platini is he wants the old european footballing days back.

Paully D

Iago wrote: »

There's no doubt that over the last 20 years or so the increasing amount of money at stake in and for football has had a negative impact on it, in much the same way as introducing vast sums of money into anything does. It leads to corruption and there are always a select few that manage to get into a position to take advantage of the many.

This has been more prevalent on a national level in the EPL than elsewhere and the teams that already had the biggest financial muscle have taken full advantage to such an extent that while individual games can go either way the destination of the title is pretty easy to predict. This is in small part down to the revenue available from European competition and it's been the teams that were in a position to be involved in those competitions in the early/mid 90's that are still at the top now.

The same is true in Spain, Scotland & Italy to a lesser extent whereas the Dutch & German leagues have mostly avoided it due to their particular national ideologies and the rest of the leagues in Europe (with the exception of France) haven't really been in a position to take advantage of the additional revenues available.

There's no doubt that the combination of these factors and the vast sums concerned have made football less of the popular mans game than it was, whether that's at a local level here in Dublin right up to international level at World Cups etc. Unfortunately this is unlikely to change in the short term, but given the events of the last 2-3 years on a global macro economy level I think it's only a matter of time before we start to see reducing revenues and prize money, which will in turn drive down salaries and running costs which should lead to a more even playing field for all. We've already seen greatly reduced attendances in most leagues across Europe over the last couple of years as well as a freezing of ticket prices, and this will accelerate over the next few years unless action is taken.

Fantastic post, one of the best I've read on this forum.

losthorizon

stovelid wrote: »

The OP had nothing to do with the LOI.

It's about the very real issue that the overwhelming majority of the football league in England - including some huge clubs - have virtually zero chance of winning anything year-in, year-out.

The thread is called "The State Of Modern Day Football For Supporters Of The Smaller Clubs"

The OP doesnt mention any particular country he wants to debate about and gives a few examples of some clubs in England. From my point of view these are all big clubs with fine facilities and with good access to TV deals etc. There are over 50 members of UEFA alone. Ive seen games in quite a few countrys and I reckon virtually most countrys would love to have clubs that are as big as these "smaller clubs".

PHB

Paully D wrote: »

I think money has completely destroyed the game. Could say, Brian Clough take charge of a club like Derby or Nottingham Forest these days and take them to top division and European honours. Not a chance IMO and he'd probably need over £80m + to establish them as a middle of the road Premier League club.

Arsene Wenger at Arsenal. Unbelievable with the resources they have, unbelievable.

While I agree that lots need to change, and I think the UEFA financial fair play rules are really going to help, I also think that often, smaller clubs are the victim of poor decision making at the top. A focus on youth, combined with attacking football to get more and more fans coming, is a winning formula long term for any club. Yet they focus on just staying in the PL, playing defensive football and just keeping that premiership money again and again.

I think the most important thing that can be done is to ensure that thigns must be done through football revenues. No more suger daddies. People need to realise that the model of how to run a football club is United or Liverpool (pre-takeovers) and Spurs and Arsenal, not Chelsea or City. These sorts of owners are ruining the game and making it harder.

Spurs don't win every game, but over the past 5 years have played really attacking football and that's why they have fans in their ground week in week out, and why they'll still have them after picking up 60k. This in turn leads to more and more money, which can be re-invested.

United built themselves up. Spurs are building themselves up. It's possible, and doable, but it's not easy, and requires more patience than most people and fans have.

dreamers75

I think watching arsenal fans over the next few days will show what fans think of continued existence as a model club or trophies.

OhNoYouDidn't

CiaranC wrote: »

Again, this thread has nothing to do with the LOI. Certain types of fan have certain views on aspects of football culture. You will find that the average LOI fans views are largely in tandem with the views of supporters groups like the Football Supporters Federation, the Manchester United Supporters Trust, AFC Wimbledon, FC United and various other grassroots supporters groups which often pass Irish EPL supporters by. Nothing to do with the LOI.

A red card for this post?

Disgraceful. Shame on the mods.

super_furry

Jesus, that's an absolute shocker.