The blame game... target EU!

CommuterIE

I see a lot of posters are attempting to put the blame of our ills elsewhere. I think it's a disgrace and the Irish have nobody else to blame but ourselves: Ireland demanded a lot of autonomy... IRELAND RAN ITSELF INTO THE GROUND THROUGH ITS OWN FAILED POLICIES AND LACK OF OVERSIGHT. The EU had nothing to do with our fiasco, it was created by the Irish government. The EU has been generous to Ireland, and fundamental to getting the tiger going. I look back now and think, YES the EU should have had more say in our internal affairs, we wouldn't be in the ****ing mess we are today... and this will last a decade at least, young people will have no choice but to emigrate because we are effectively a failed state because of morons like Bertie Ahern

strokemyclover

Sit down OP, you're drunk!

rockmongrel

The blame game... target average Irish person!

Yakult

Who actually gives a **** anymore? We are in this position now and blaming people gets nowhere as we've seen. Many people should be sent to jail but this being Ireland they will get their name in the headlines and a week later they are scot free it with a fat juicy pension.

SeaFields

I see Jose Manuel Barroso has got himself a boards account.

dan719

CommuterIE wrote: »

I see a lot of posters are attempting to put the blame of our ills elsewhere. I think it's a disgrace and the Irish have nobody else to blame but ourselves: Ireland demanded a lot of autonomy... IRELAND RAN ITSELF INTO THE GROUND THROUGH ITS OWN FAILED POLICIES AND LACK OF OVERSIGHT. The EU had nothing to do with our fiasco, it was created by the Irish government. The EU has been generous to Ireland, and fundamental to getting the tiger going. I look back now and think, YES the EU should have had more say in our internal affairs, we wouldn't be in the ****ing mess we are today... and this will last a decade at least, young people will have no choice but to emigrate because we are effectively a failed state because of morons like Bertie Ahern

I try and avoid conversations like this on AH but here goes anyway.

The reason the ECB and the EU are currently a target for Irish anger is two fold;

The first is pre crisis- The ECB kept interest rates low to suit Germany (and to a lesser extent France) at a time when the Irish economy was overheating and required higher interest rates to discourage borrowing. Not only that, but some of the larger countries broke the Stability and Growth Pact, so it is a bit rich for them to talk about fiscal rectitude when they haven't practised it themselves.

The second is post crisis (i.e. now)- Yet again Ireland is at the mercy of a wildly unsuitable interest rate regime. The ECB may be mandated to limit inflation to "close to but less than 2%", but it seems to be failing to realise that the current high level of inflation is imported into the Eurozone in the form of fuel, goods and so on. Increasing interest rates will mean less money in your pocket but will not achieve the the "protection of purchasing power."

WRT the bailout, many Irish people feel that they have been saddled with an almost impossible to repay debt to protect the banks that leant to AIB, BOI, Anglo etc during the boom. Which just happen to be German and French in the main. If Irish taxpayers are on the hook for OUR banks, then why the hell should the German- Franco alliance not be responsible for their own?

AH answer- Because Sarkozy is a short little man and merkel is an ugly b*tch!

squod

CommuterIE wrote: »

morons like Bertie Ahern

He's not a moron, neither is Cowen. The previous administration ignored the advice of economists, advisors, fellow politicians and experts. To say he's a moron would be to absolve him of blame in some way.

I blame Cowen personally. I would like to see him face trial for his crimes and I would not like apologists like yourself to interfere with the people's perception of this traikor. These people knew what they were doing.

Saila

did you see freefall of what? its on RTE player, its a good watch and it'll be gone soon

CommuterIE

dan719 wrote: »

I try and avoid conversations like this on AH but here goes anyway.

The reason the ECB and the EU are currently a target for Irish anger is two fold;

The first is pre crisis- The ECB kept interest rates low to suit Germany (and to a lesser extent France) at a time when the Irish economy was overheating and required higher interest rates to discourage borrowing. Not only that, but some of the larger countries broke the Stability and Growth Pact, so it is a bit rich for them to talk about fiscal rectitude when they haven't practised it themselves.

The second is post crisis (i.e. now)- Yet again Ireland is at the mercy of a wildly unsuitable interest rate regime. The ECB may be mandated to limit inflation to "close to but less than 2%", but it seems to be failing to realise that the current high level of inflation is imported into the Eurozone in the form of fuel, goods and so on. Increasing interest rates will mean less money in your pocket but will not achieve the the "protection of purchasing power."

WRT the bailout, many Irish people feel that they have been saddled with an almost impossible to repay debt to protect the banks that leant to AIB, BOI, Anglo etc during the boom. Which just happen to be German and French in the main. If Irish taxpayers are on the hook for OUR banks, then why the hell should the German- Franco alliance not be responsible for their own?

AH answer- Because Sarkozy is a short little man and merkel is an ugly b*tch!

So at the end of the day, you blame the EU for OUR mess? If the authorities here were any way competent, it would have been avoided

CommuterIE

If a mod could please edit that typo in the poll question, I would be very grateful

Saila

CommuterIE wrote: »

So at the end of the day, you blame the EU for OUR mess? If the authorities here were any way competent, it would have been avoided

watch freefall and come back to me, these things are not as simple as its 'x' fault, its about being x, y, z, a, b ,c , d's fault, watch it and you should then see that.

squod

Saila wrote: »

watch freefall and come back to me, these things are not as simple as its 'x' fault, its about being x, y, z, a, b ,c , d's fault, watch it and you should then see that.

It's complete and utter bolloxology. The reason ''we'' bailed Anglo is extremely clear to everyone.

Saila

squod wrote: »

It's complete and utter bolloxology. The reason ''we'' bailed Anglo is extremely clear to everyone.

did you watch it?

squod

Saila wrote: »

did you watch it?

Yes. The truth gets a small airing in parts alright. But the coverage overall is designed to support FF's notion of the ''only game in town'' was a blanket guarantee. Complete fabrication.

smk89

I think we should all just have a nice cup of tea.
Sure didn't our Lord himself on the cross pause for a nice cup of tea before giving himself up for the world?

dan719

CommuterIE wrote: »

So at the end of the day, you blame the EU for OUR mess? If the authorities here were any way competent, it would have been avoided

Where did I say that?

I explained why some Irish people felt a level of anger towards the EU and the ECB.

The reasons for our mess are many and varied and include (but not limited to);

• poor financial regulation at a national and international level
• creation of poorly understood deriritive instruments which increased the risk of contagion throughout the system
• the unsuitable interest rate regime described earlier and so on

To try and pin the blame on any one group or failing is both simplistic and stupid. I'm not trying to, and I suggest you avoid it too.

Saila

squod wrote: »

Yes. The truth gets a small airing in parts alright. But the coverage overall is designed to support FF's notion of the ''only game in town'' was a blanket guarantee. Complete fabrication.

ok then, what was the alternative

squod

Saila wrote: »

ok then, what was the alternative

Oh God........ The blanket guarantee was entirely the wrong thing to do at the time. That's not hindsight talking either.

Here's an alternative supplied by the central bank governor. You gonna argue with him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne2EGhyT14M

CommuterIE

Saila wrote: »

ok then, what was the alternative

There was no alternative... the alternative would've been you and the entire population unable to withdraw cash from ATM's or branches, economical suicide and a breakdown of society

squod

CommuterIE wrote: »

There was no alternative... the alternative would've been you and the entire population unable to withdraw cash from ATM's or branches, economical suicide and a breakdown of society

There's no evidence that that was the case. This is just more of it. If the whole world told you differently, will you still believe the opinion of a handful of politicians?

southsiderosie

CommuterIE wrote: »

There was no alternative... the alternative would've been you and the entire population unable to withdraw cash from ATM's or branches, economical suicide and a breakdown of society

The government could have guaranteed deposits, which is what would have avoided a bank run. Instead the blanket guarantee covered bondholders as well, who could and should have been burned on their terrible investments. If they wanted to turn around and sue Anglo later over false accounting or whatever, that would have been their prerogative, but Irish taxpayers would not be on the hook for it.

squod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQow6_eANQk

http://www.ceps.eu/member/karel-lannoo

Unilateral decision, without consulting their colleagues in the EU. A decision made in the dead of night etc.

CommuterIE

southsiderosie wrote: »

The government could have guaranteed deposits, which is what would have avoided a bank run. Instead the blanket guarantee covered bondholders as well, who could and should have been burned on their terrible investments. If they wanted to turn around and sue Anglo later over false accounting or whatever, that would have been their prerogative, but Irish taxpayers would not be on the hook for it.

Sorry, but the banks were broke... there was no mention of a bank run?? Regardless of a run or not, everybody wouldn't have access to their cash... the banks were on the verge of collapse!

sock puppet

CommuterIE wrote: »

So at the end of the day, you blame the EU for OUR mess? If the authorities here were any way competent, it would have been avoided

So you don't think low interest rates had an effect on our overheating economy?

southsiderosie wrote: »

The government could have guaranteed deposits, which is what would have avoided a bank run. Instead the blanket guarantee covered bondholders as well, who could and should have been burned on their terrible investments.

I'm not sure if that would have been possible legally?

force majeure

As this is after hours i reserve the right to blame my granny for not bringing me up to be a god fearing bigoted nercon miser who distrusts everything and never once championed anything other than a shot off Scottish water. :D

Saila

squod wrote: »

There's no evidence that that was the case. This is just more of it. If the whole world tell you differently, will you still believe the opinion of a handful of politicians?

Did you see what happened when northern rock crashed sometime before the guarantee?, that was the proof, it would have been 100 times worse than that

edit: I see from another post that they guaranteed the bond holders and not just deposits so that changes everything..

if was was possible to guarantee the depositors without the bond holders then it looks like it was indeed a rash decision, so what would be the consequences of not guaranteeing the bond holders back then?

CommuterIE

sock puppet wrote: »

So you don't think low interest rates had an effect on our overheating economy?

That would've been an Irish government issue to work around, and here's news, THEY DIDN'T DO THERE JOB!

squod

Saila wrote: »

Did you see what happened when northern rock crashed sometime before the guarantee?, that was the proof, it would have been 100 times worse than that

There's no evidence for anything you are saying. You do realise that right?
How many time do you have to be told. It was the wrong decision. It's not just me telling you that. I doubt that even RTE would try keep this fantasy going any longer.

CommuterIE

squod wrote: »

There's no evidence for anything you are saying. You do realise that right?
How many time do you have to be told. It was the wrong decision. It's not just me telling you that. I doubt that even RTE would try keep this fantasy going any longer.

But there is evidence... the banks would've collapsed overnight...

sock puppet

CommuterIE wrote: »

That would've been an Irish government issue to work around, and here's news, THEY DIDN'T DO THERE JOB!

So what? No one's saying FF were not at fault. But central banks play a very important role in regulating the economy. You can't discount its influence just because it suits your argument. It's as dishonest as FF supporters blaming it all on the global financial crisis.

southsiderosie

sock puppet wrote: »

So you don't think low interest rates had an effect on our overheating economy?

Interest rates were too low for the state of Ireland's economy, but the government could and should have used fiscal and tax policy to cool things down. Instead, they threw petrol onto the fire.

sock puppet wrote: »

I'm not sure if that would have been possible legally?

And the blanket bank guarantee was legal? If they had the leeway to do one (which is far more expansive), I fail to see how they could not have done the other.

squod

CommuterIE wrote: »

But there is evidence... the banks would've collapsed overnight...

Say's who? Some bankers? Some bankers mates? Seriously.......

southsiderosie

CommuterIE wrote: »

There was no alternative... the alternative would've been you and the entire population unable to withdraw cash from ATM's or branches, economical suicide and a breakdown of society

CommuterIE wrote: »

Sorry, but the banks were broke... there was no mention of a bank run?? Regardless of a run or not, everybody wouldn't have access to their cash... the banks were on the verge of collapse!

Do you have any actual evidence of this, or are you just going to keep saying it over and over again?

CommuterIE

sock puppet wrote: »

So what? No one's saying FF were not at fault. But central banks play a very important role in regulating the economy. You can't discount its influence just because it suits your argument. It's as dishonest as FF supporters blaming it all on the global financial crisis.

The regulator was working within his remit and regulation at the time, which was described by an FF politician before the bust as "He really doesn't have much to work with" The banks were allowed to run like it was the wild west

sock puppet

southsiderosie wrote: »

And the blanket bank guarantee was legal? If they had the leeway to do one (which is far more expansive), I fail to see how they could not have done the other.

I'm just saying that since bondholders and depositors are equal in Irish law would it not be illegal to guarentee deposits and not bondholders?

CommuterIE wrote: »

The regulator was working within his remit and regulation at the time, which was described by an FF politician before the bust as "He really doesn't have much to work with" The banks were allowed to run like it was the wild west

And?

CommuterIE

southsiderosie wrote: »

Do you have any actual evidence of this, or are you just going to keep saying it over and over again?

Thankfully I don't have evidence!

squod

Guaranteeing the deposits and any future loans was a more sensible plan. More to the point, I can remember people shock, hearing the news that Anglo was getting a 100% blanket bail-out.

CommuterIE

squod wrote: »

Guaranteeing the deposits and any future loans was a more sensible plan. More to the point, I can remember people shock, hearing the news that Anglo was getting a 100% blanket bail-out.

Anglo owned the majority of corporate leases and mortgages in the State, it was impossible to let it go bust... nobody wanted to bail them out but that was the stark reality

Craebear

Whole thing was deliberate, incompetence alone does cause a mess like this, there is intent in there somewhere.

Saila

we need to settle the legality of guaranteeing the bondholders as well as the deposits issue and the one and not the other situation before moving on, any sources about the legalities of both of those options?

squod

CommuterIE wrote: »

Anglo owned the majority of corporate leases and mortgages in the State,

So you're saying it wasn't possible for someone in the previous administration to negotiate with the appointed receivers about these corporate leases and mortgages?

Somehow, I don't believe you.

CommuterIE

squod wrote: »

So you're saying it wasn't possible for someone in the previous administration to negotiate with the appointed receivers about these corporate leases and mortgages?

Somehow, I don't believe you.

lmao, what recievers, who the **** would want a bank billions in the red??

squod

CommuterIE wrote: »

lmao, what recievers, who the **** would want a bank billions in the red??

You apparently.

CommuterIE

squod wrote: »

You apparently.

Lets not resort to stupidity here, ANGLO WAS TO BIG TO FAIL! Is there something you don't get about that fact

Ruu_Old

Is this the new RTE gameshow? I heard Derek Davis will present it.

squod

Saila wrote: »

if was was possible to guarantee the depositors without the bond holders then it looks like it was indeed a rash decision, so what would be the consequences of not guaranteeing the bond holders back then?

This was discussed ad-nauseum pre election like. All water under the bridge etc. The web seminars from the celebrity economists over on newvision.ie or the Peoples economy could have explained all this to you at the time.

People voted pro-austerity for the benefit of the bankers. That's what the people want.

squod

CommuterIE wrote: »

Lets not resort to stupidity here, ANGLO WAS TO BIG TO FAIL! Is there something you don't get about that fact

It's not a fact. You will supply no evidence to support your claim because there is none. Getting angry and using shouty capitalisation won't prove your point.

pragmatic1

squod wrote: »

It's complete and utter bolloxology. The reason ''we'' bailed Anglo is extremely clear to everyone.

Did you watch the part where Jean Claude Trichet told lenihan that he must save Irish banks at all costs, the reason being they owed so much to European banks. People act like Ireland is the only country with corruption, the EU is one big giant corrupt entity.

Saila

squod wrote: »

This was discussed ad-nauseum pre election like. All water under the bridge etc. The web seminars from the celebrity economists over on newvision.ie or the Peoples republic could have explained all this to you at the time.

People voted pro-austerity for the benefit of the bankers. That's what the people want.

a little summary will do, if they were good points you would remember them, it was two years ago I cant go routing through the pages to find it!

squod

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Did you watch the part where Jean Claude Trichet told lenihan that he must save Irish banks at all costs, the reason being they owed so much to European banks. People act like Ireland is the only country with corruption, the EU is one big giant corrupt entity.

I'm sorry, who voted Jean Claude Trichet into government over here? I genuinely do not recall Trichet appearing in person on the tele making that remark.

pragmatic1

CommuterIE wrote: »

I see a lot of posters are attempting to put the blame of our ills elsewhere. I think it's a disgrace and the Irish have nobody else to blame but ourselves: Ireland demanded a lot of autonomy... IRELAND RAN ITSELF INTO THE GROUND THROUGH ITS OWN FAILED POLICIES AND LACK OF OVERSIGHT. The EU had nothing to do with our fiasco, it was created by the Irish government. The EU has been generous to Ireland, and fundamental to getting the tiger going. I look back now and think, YES the EU should have had more say in our internal affairs, we wouldn't be in the ****ing mess we are today... and this will last a decade at least, young people will have no choice but to emigrate because we are effectively a failed state because of morons like Bertie Ahern

Its very simple. Banks are private institutions. When they make a profit they dont share it with the people, so why should we pick up the bill for foreign banks which made a fortune from this country and now expect us to pay for their stupidity. Thats not how capitalism works.