The Roy Hodgson Question.

bamboozling

I think its time a proper debate was had on the man.

Why is it that he failed so spectacularly at Liverpool yet was so successful at Fulham and is currently doing a tremendous job at West Brom and indeed has been successful at almost every other managerial position in his 30 year career?

People on this forum questioned the sacking of Di Matteo vehemently and wondered aloud the wisdom of brining in Hodgson. But before he was sacked Di Matteo had lost 13 out of his previous 17 games and West Brom seemed to be staring relegation in the face. Now they are 10th and will not get relegated.

Hodgson has done very well at West Brom, he's unbeaten in 7 and is playing entertaining football as in every game both teams have scored and scores like 3-3, 3-2 and 2-2 have been witnessed.

Is it that Liverpool was a blip on his record rather than a true reflection of the man's managerial capabilities?

Or has he, as some point out, merely found his level?

Melion

He found his level with teams like Fulham and WBA.

The Muppet

Melion wrote: »

He found his level with teams like Fulham and WBA.

Bull****, he showing that he is a quality manager when given support.

The players and fans are the reason he failed at Liverpool, the players have said as much through the club captain

flahavaj

He has found his level.

Its clear that he can be a very good manager at a club like WBA.

At a club with less technically proficient players like Liverpool, however, he tends to struggle a bit more.

ShamoBuc

I think he should manage United next year and see what level he can find there!

Kiwi_knock

There is not the same media pressure, you are not expected to win the majority of your games unlike at Liverpool.

Melion

flahavaj wrote: »

He has found his level.

Its clear that he can be a very good manager at a club like WBA.

At a club with less technically proficient players like Liverpool, however, he tends to struggle a bit more.

Less?

Melion

The Muppet wrote: »

Bull****, he showing that he is a quality manager when given support.

The players and fans are the reason he failed at Liverpool, the players have said as much through the club captain

His tactics from the very first game were awful. He was playing Meireles on the right wing, just look at the differences in his performances since he was moved to his correct position.

Tusky

Exactly what others have said - hes found his level. Hes been in management a long time yet his trophy cabinet is fairly empty. If he was a top class manager he would have won more. Its simple.

You have to back 10 years to his last trophy (Danish cup + league), and after that you need to go back to the late 80s for his successes in Sweden.

He got the Liverpool job based on getting Fulham to Europa League final. A fine achievement, but not a good barimetre for success with a big team.

For all the people saying he is a top manager and it was players/fans fault he failed at Liverpool - would you want him managing your club ? Would you want him managing Manchester Utd/Chelsea/Arsenal/Man City ? Didnt think so.

His tactics are Liverpool were awful. His press conferences and interviews were embaressing and he didnt have any sort of relationship with the fans (this went both way, not just the fans fault). He blamed the players for his failings and critisized the fans. He had totally the wrong mentality, attitude and tactics for managing a big club. He works best when backs are aganist the wall.

flahavaj

Melion wrote: »

Less?

Melion wrote: »

His tactics from the very first game were awful. He was playing Meireles on the right wing, just look at the differences in his performances since he was moved to his correct position.

Dalglish has played Meireles wide right as well, more than once, including against Utd in your best perfromance of the season.

homolumo

Tusky wrote: »

Exactly what others have said - hes found his level. Hes been in management a long time yet his trophy cabinet is fairly empty. If he was a top class manager he would have won more. Its simple. You have to back 10 years to his last trophy (Danish cup + league), and after that you need to go back to the late 80s for his successes in Sweden.

For all the people saying he is a top manager and it was players/fans fault he failed at Liverpool - would you want him managing your club ? Would you want him managing Manchester Utd/Chelsea/Arsenal/Man City ? Didnt think so.

His tactics are Liverpool were awful. His press conferences and interviews were embaressing and he didnt have any sort of relationship with the fans (this went both way, not just the fans fault). He blamed the players for his failings and critisized the fans. He had totally the wrong mentality, attitude and tactics for managing a big club. He works best when backs are aganist the wall.

Spot on. He didn't seem to cope well with the pressure of being Liverpool manager either. He also bought Poulsen and Konchesky.

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

Bull****, he showing that he is a quality manager when given support.

The players and fans are the reason he failed at Liverpool, the players have said as much through the club captain

Results is why he failed. He never adapted his tactics for the players available. Good coach, wasn't suited for Liverpool. Kenny has shown that you can get the best out of players playing to there strenghts, Hodgson didn't do that.

He's found his level, good luck to him....

The Muppet

homolumo wrote: »

Spot on. He didn't seem to cope well with the pressure of being Liverpool manager either. He also bought Poulsen and Konchesky.

Couldn't cope well with professional footballers who couldnt be arsed to put in a performance in most games they played for him, strange that?

Yakult

Roy is obviously a good manager and as a Liverpool fan I have nothing against the man. He just wasnt right for Liverpool and he got fired. Nothing new in the game is it?

*awaits the ****fest*

Melion

flahavaj wrote: »

Dalglish has played Meireles wide right as well, more than once, including against Utd in your best perfromance of the season.

Incorrect

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

Couldn't cope well with professional footballers who couldnt be arsed to put in a performance in most games they played for him, strange that?

His job is to get them to play......he couldn't.....he was fired, and rightly so....

TheTownie

Tusky wrote: »

Exactly what others have said - hes found his level. Hes been in management a long time yet his trophy cabinet is fairly empty. If he was a top class manager he would have won more. Its simple.

You have to back 10 years to his last trophy (Danish cup + league), and after that you need to go back to the late 80s for his successes in Sweden.

He got the Liverpool job based on getting Fulham to Europa League final. A fine achievement, but not a good barimetre for success with a big team.

For all the people saying he is a top manager and it was players/fans fault he failed at Liverpool - would you want him managing your club ? Would you want him managing Manchester Utd/Chelsea/Arsenal/Man City ? Didnt think so.

His tactics are Liverpool were awful. His press conferences and interviews were embaressing and he didnt have any sort of relationship with the fans (this went both way, not just the fans fault). He blamed the players for his failings and critisized the fans. He had totally the wrong mentality, attitude and tactics for managing a big club. He works best when backs are aganist the wall.

I thinks its the opposite really...

He works best when given the confidence of both players and fans.

Unlike at Liverpool.

Yakult

The Muppet wrote: »

Couldn't cope well with professional footballers who couldnt be arsed to put in a performance in most games they played for him, strange that?

why would they? He did not give them alot of reasons to believe it in manager, he said really stupid things and made some ****ty decisions which pushed fans and players away

flahavaj

Melion wrote: »

Incorrect

Nope. I remember it clearly unfortunately and finding it amisuing that when Kenny did it no one said a word, but when Roy did it, therewas murder. Ditto their similar lack of gametime given to Pacheco.

Melion

flahavaj wrote: »

Nope. I remember it clearly unfortunately.

I was horribly hungover that morning/day but i dont recall him playing on the right

NukaCola

TheTownie wrote: »

I thinks its the opposite really...

He works best when given the confidence of both players and fans.

Unlike at Liverpool.

You have to earn that confidence.
He was given a lot of support by the fans....

The Muppet

NukaCola wrote: »

His job is to get them to play......he couldn't.....he was fired, and rightly so....

No, Their job is play for the club.

flahavaj

Melion wrote: »

I was horribly hungover that morning/day but i dont recall him playing on the right

I'd be 99% sure ye did. And he has done it in other games as well, but got a free pass.

Melion

The Muppet wrote: »

No, Their job is play for the club.

Please, just for one day, just give it a rest.

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

No, Their job is play for the club.

I'll rephrase it just for you Muppet me ol mucker, it was Roys job to win games through his tactics and available players. He ended with a worse win rate than Souness, and as it stands is one of the worst managers, statistically, we've ever had....

mike65

So then this is really another thread to attack LFC with is it?

Melion

mike65 wrote: »

So then this is really another thread to attack LFC with is it?

Did you expect any different?

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

No, Their job is play for the club.

Also, i'm not absolving the players, they were shocking, but its always the managers head that rolls, such is football....

The Muppet

Melion wrote: »

Please, just for one day, just give it a rest.

Give what a rest, telling the truth? No

Gerrard said exatly the same as I,m saying now, suppose he was on a wind up too.:rolleyes:

TheTownie

NukaCola wrote: »

You have to earn that confidence.
He was given a lot of support by the fans....

He was given the bare minimum support! And didn't take too long for that support to evaporate either...

Melion

The Muppet wrote: »

Give what a rest, telling the truth? No

Gerrard said exatly the same as I,m saying now, suppose he was on a wind up too.:rolleyes:

I know what he said, most people here know what he said. We dont need someone like you to repeat it.

Hodgson was a failure, that was down to himself and his negative tactics first, player performance comes second.

NukaCola

TheTownie wrote: »

He was given the bare minimum support! And didn't take too long for that support to evaporate either...

You dont know what your talking about....

The Muppet

NukaCola wrote: »

I'll rephrase it just for you Muppet me ol mucker, it was Roys job to win games through his tactics and available players. He ended with a worse win rate than Souness, and as it stands is one of the worst managers, statistically, we've ever had....

We all know why that was, but some of us don't want to accept that the players just didn't try for him. It's impossible for any manager to get results in that scenario.

Melion

TheTownie wrote: »

He was given the bare minimum support! And didn't take too long for that support to evaporate either...

We were 19th in the table at one stage, how long should Liverpool fans have put up with that?

TheTownie

NukaCola wrote: »

You dont know what your talking about....

:rolleyes:

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

Give what a rest, telling the truth? No

Gerrard said exatly the same as I,m saying now, suppose he was on a wind up too.:rolleyes:

Gerrard said nothing about the fans Muppet.....

Truth? Is that what your calling it these days :P

NukaCola

TheTownie wrote: »

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

ShamoBuc

TheTownie wrote: »

:rolleyes:

insightful!


He had a bad time at Liverpool - it happens, we've moved on and so has he.

The Muppet

Melion wrote: »

I know what he said, most people here know what he said. We dont need someone like you to repeat it.

Hodgson was a failure, that was down to himself and his negative tactics first, player performance comes second.

You obvioulsy do need to be reminded of the reason the Club captain gave , because ye are ignoring it in any debate about hodgsons management of liverpool

ShamoBuc

NukaCola wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

very insightful;)

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

We all know why that was, but some of us don't want to accept that the players just didn't try for him. It's impossible for any manager to get results in that scenario.

I said as much.....but the tactics were rubbish Muppet, i watch nearly every game, defense was a shambles, midfield was bypassed by long balls, Torres playing a Zamora roll.....it was a nightmare...

Iago

Having considered this overnight, perhaps I was a little hasty in locking down this thread. I'm going to reopen it in the hope that the debate continues in a civil manner without people resorting to cheap shots and getting at other users.

I will however be very strict in handing out infractions and bans for anybody who starts trolling or attacking other posters in this thread.

Iago

Personally I think a number of things went against Hodgson in his time at Liverpool. The boardroom shenanigans didn't help anybody, there were still a number of the squad still loyal to the previous manager and the club as a whole was rocking and lacking in confidence.

He attempted to instill his version of order on that but rather than go with it I don't think the squad bought into it and therefore didn't play to the best of their ability as a result. He then allowed himself to become frustrated by that and lost the fans by virtue of the things that he said and didn't say respectively.

Ultimately I think he's a very good manager, but he was probably too nice when it came to dealing with pampered superstars.

The Muppet

NukaCola wrote: »

Gerrard said nothing about the fans Muppet.....

Yeah?

“I think it’s more that they idolise Kenny, and when a decision was made that Rafa was going to leave the two front-runners were Dalglish or Hodgson – and the fans absolutely love Kenny,” the Liverpool captain said, “Every time there were a couple of bad results or maybe the tactics were slightly wrong or we went a goal behind, the fans were getting on the manager’s back.”

Dozen Wicked Words

Stats taken from Wikipedia, and my reading of the stats may be wrong too, so WIDE open to errors, and happy to be corrected:

Hodgsons record at Liverpool:
Played31 W13 D9 L9 Win Percentage 41.94% 1.54points a game.

Dalglish record this time around:
Played16 W7 D4 L5 Win Percentage 43.75% 1.56points a game.


Statistically not much between the two managers from these figures. There is nothing wrong with Liverpool fans being happier with a club legend managing their club but his record is only marginally better than Hodgson (who incidentally I don't particularly like)

mike65

Liverpool played 31 leagues games under Hodgson? I thought it seemed a long stretch

Rubik.

Hodgson said judge me after 10 games, Liverpool got off to the worst start to a season in 57 years - he should of gone sooner.

SlickRic

everyone just read Iago's post above, and be done with it.

that's the beginning and end of it for me.

heaping everything on Hodgson is stupid. heaping everything on the fans is stupid. heaping everything on the players is stupid; though i'd have to put a lot of the blame on them. but unfortunately you can't sack the team.

anybody who says it's all any one of these factors' fault is delusional, on a wind up, or despises the club and wants to attack our players and fans for the hell of it.

the players didn't buy into it, Hodgson couldn't adapt, couldn't get the team playing for him, made a mess of his public persona, and that was it. there was no choice in the end and he had to go.

saying he's 'found his level', though there's truth to it, ish, is very very simplistic.

the job he's doing at West Brom is very impressive.

a key question i would ask 'big teams' fans though? would you have him manage your club? though Liverpool aren't at top 4 level right now, that is our aim. would you have him at the helm handling your charge at that, or if you're a Utd/Arsenal/Chelsea fan, would you have him managing a title charge?

if both of those answers are no, particularly for the first one, some people really need to stop trying to lecture Liverpool fans telling us we should've kept him. the reality, especially if you were a Utd fan, is that you quite enjoyed seeing us in a mess. Kenny, whether it's because of nostalgia or not, brought the stability and unity that the board thought Hodgson, could bring, and couldn't.

be honest with yourself

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

a key question i would ask 'big teams' fans though? would you have him manage your club? though Liverpool aren't at top 4 level right now, that is our aim. would you have him at the helm handling your charge at that, or if you're a Utd/Arsenal/Chelsea fan, would you have him managing a title charge?

if both of those answers are no, particularly for the first one, some people really need to stop trying to lecture Liverpool fans telling us we should've kept him. the reality, especially if you were a Utd fan, is that you quite enjoyed seeing us in a mess. Kenny, whether it's because of nostalgia or not, brought the stability and unity that the board thought Hodgson, could bring, and couldn't.

be honest with yourself

United fans have a always given the Manager a decent amount of time to settle into the job, I don't see why Hodgson would be treated any differently . Most clubs would be the same IMO.

Liverpools fans problems with ROY had more to do with his predecessor and his fellow candidate for the Job than anything Roy did TBH.

That's my opinion on it, theres not much point in goining around in circles with this so I,m happy to agree to differ with anyone that doesn't share that opinion.

Kess73

dooferoaks wrote: »

Stats taken from Wikipedia, and my reading of the stats may be wrong too, so WIDE open to errors, and happy to be corrected:

Hodgsons record at Liverpool:
Played31 W13 D9 L9 Win Percentage 41.94% 1.54points a game.

Dalglish record this time around:
Played16 W7 D4 L5 Win Percentage 43.75% 1.56points a game.


Statistically not much between the two managers from these figures. There is nothing wrong with Liverpool fans being happier with a club legend managing their club but his record is only marginally better than Hodgson (who incidentally I don't particularly like)

The win and loss numbers are wrong there. He won one less, and lost one more going by the results list on the club's official website.

If you look at the comps in which both managers were in charge for the most games, the premier league, then Hodgson has a 1.25 point per game average and Dalglish has almost 2 points per game.

Also the club dropped from a 45% loss record in the league (from 20 games played) to a 27% loss record to date under Kenny (from 11 games played).


There are still 7 more games to be played under Kenny. It will be interesting to compare their stats once the season ends to see how much of an improvement there was.

But, for my money, Slick's post is pretty close to the mark.

Kess73

The Muppet wrote: »

United fans have a always given the Manager a decent amount of time to settle into the job, I don't see why Hodgson would be treated any differently . Most clubs would be the same IMO.
Liverpools fans problems with ROY had more to do with his predecessor and his fellow candidate for the Job than anything Roy did TBH.

That's my opinion on it, theres not much point in goining around in circles with this so I,m happy to agree to differ with anyone that doesn't share that opinion.

True since 1972 United fans have been pretty patient with managers, but there was a spell between 1969 and 1972 where United had four managers and the fans certainly did not back two of them.


Liverpool supporters have also had a reputation of backing managers befrore Hodgson as well, and he has proven to be the exception to that.

If Hodgson had some grasp of dealing with the media in terms of what he said before and after games, then he may have gotten better backing from the supporters, but he started making excuses before games as early as the pre season games when he would go on LFC TV and speak about how he hoped that a loss could be avoided before a number of the preseason games.

This tactic continued into the early season competitive games, and he managed to lose most of his remaining backers with his string of interviews after the loss to Everton where he came out and said that Liverpool supporters should not see that loss as being any different to losing to any other team. He compounded this error of judgement, imho of course, by giving a number of interviews about how the loss to Everton was a great example of the team playing well, and he came out with this line after the team had played it's next game.

He just did not help his own cause with what he came out with from day one. He made it quite difficult for supporters to take to him and the constant line of excuses that started before the season even begun.


Was he sacked too soon? I think not, but I can see where most folk who say otherwise are coming from.


I am also looking forward to seeing all those who argue that the fans were against him at Liverpool starting and participating in a similar thread about Houllier who has had a fair number of Villa supporters looking for his head for a good number of months now, after all the same standards should apply across the board should they not?