Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Specsavers Ireland vs. UK - ripoff!

  • 08-04-2011 11:09pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 716 ✭✭✭


    Bought glasses in Dublin - EUR 189 for glasses with a free pair. EUR 45 extra per pair for the antireflective coating.

    The brother, who lives in Wales, admired my new glasses & took the product number off the frame and found that in UK, the same deal cost GBP 129 for the same 2 pairs... and GBP 30 only for antireflective coating. That's way more than the exchange rate of 86p to the euro.

    If you get glasses from specsavers, buy them north of the border!


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭whippet


    Reesy wrote: »
    Bought glasses in Dublin - EUR 189 for glasses with a free pair. EUR 45 extra per pair for the antireflective coating.

    The brother, who lives in Wales, admired my new glasses & took the product number off the frame and found that in UK, the same deal cost GBP 129 for the same 2 pairs... and GBP 30 only for antireflective coating. That's way more than the exchange rate of 86p to the euro.

    If you get glasses from specsavers, buy them north of the border!

    use your new glasses and start reading some of the multitudes of threads on here regarding the pricing differential between Ireland & the UK .... its not all black and white.

    - Rents
    - Rates
    - Costs of Labour
    - VAT rates
    - electric
    - heat
    - Wage costs
    - Administration costs
    - Smaller market
    - importation and distribution costs

    All of these will have the impact on the price in ireland and likewise the UK costs will impact the price in the UK.

    Ireland and the UK are to totally different markets with totally different market forces and thus will not have the same price.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 PumpkinPie2


    Ireland and UK might possibly be different markets (although I am not quite convinced by that old chestnut), however we are united in having access to the same poor quality frames from Specsavers.
    I have been their customer for a number of years on the understanding that their frames are fairly rubbish but that they will patch them up when they fall apart, inevitably.
    Last week they charged me €7 for replacing the arm on a pair of reading glasses I bought from them less than 2 years ago. The replacement does not even match!
    Next time, I'll be buying a better quality frame elsewhere.:cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭maxer68


    Reesy wrote: »
    The brother, who lives in Wales,

    Ask your brother the following questions

    How Much is he paid
    How Much would he be paid here if doignt he same work. (probably 20% more)
    How much does he pay in Tax
    How much would he pay in tax here. (average 15% less than UK)
    How much does he pay in council tax? (none here).
    How much is his water artes? (none here yet)

    That might answer the question of why retailers have to charge more in Ireland. - they pay a far higher rent, far far higher council rates (up to €50000 year for a standard sized shop in Dublin shopping centres - UK equiv would be less tha £15000), they pay higher wages and they pay higher emplyer prsi.

    If all these taxes were loaded on the public here just like they do in the UK, I'm sure all prices could be the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 PumpkinPie2


    Pardon me for butting in...but the question to ask is: what is Specsavers profit margin in Ireland and the UK?
    For example, Tesco's profit margin is Ireland is greater than that in the UK, so it would seem that all the costs they incur in Ireland do not stop them from making very large profits here.
    So, if prices seem excessive on our little island, perhaps we could be forgiven for concluding that we are being ripped off...on the same principle that "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc...":D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,247 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Pardon me for butting in...but the question to ask is: what is Specsavers profit margin in Ireland and the UK?
    For example, Tesco's profit margin is Ireland is greater than that in the UK, so it would seem that all the costs they incur in Ireland do not stop them from making very large profits here.
    So, if prices seem excessive on our little island, perhaps we could be forgiven for concluding that we are being ripped off...on the same principle that "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc...":D

    If the overheads are higher here, then the gross profit margins would have to be higher to compensate.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭maxer68


    Pardon me for butting in...but the question to ask is: what is Specsavers profit margin in Ireland and the UK?
    For example, Tesco's profit margin is Ireland is greater than that in the UK, so it would seem that all the costs they incur in Ireland do not stop them from making very large profits here.
    :D

    The difference in Tesco net margin here v the UK is estimated at less than 0.5%. But because it is "higher" it meant the press were able to go to town on it. The actual fugures were 7.3% in Ireland & 6.9% in the UK.

    Also you can't compare a giant grocery multiple who owns many of its own store or who would have extremely favourable rental terms with any developer against totally independent franchisees in prime locations. All specsavers stores are independent fanchisees.


    As for the OP he/she was voluntarily fleeced. That anti-reflective glare covering is nonsense and makes the spectacles more difficult to clean for normal use. There is no need whatsoever for it for the normal person. That's an immediate saving of €90 and the OP was complaining about a €30 difference. (assuming it 2 pairs for €189)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,858 ✭✭✭CuppaCocoa


    http://www.goggles4u.com/ :D

    Never pay full price for specs again!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    what is Specsavers profit margin in Ireland and the UK?
    And another question is what is the average margin for a company in this business in country A vs Country B, this goes for any item. If all the local Irish owned spectacle companies are charging €100 for glasses which are £10 in the UK, then they would be complete and utter idiots to charge the equivalent of £10 here, this is regardless of overheads and VAT, even if it costed far less to supply the item here any businessman with a ounce of cop on will look at what his competitors are charging -and not just blindly work off the same margin in all countries/regions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    whippet wrote: »
    use your new glasses and start reading some of the multitudes of threads on here regarding the pricing differential between Ireland & the UK .... its not all black and white.

    - Rents
    - Rates
    - Costs of Labour
    - VAT rates
    - electric
    - heat
    - Wage costs
    - Administration costs
    - Smaller market
    - importation and distribution costs

    All of these will have the impact on the price in ireland and likewise the UK costs will impact the price in the UK.

    Ireland and the UK are to totally different markets with totally different market forces and thus will not have the same price.
    But none of this explains the ripoff regarding contact lenses from that same company. Trying to order contact lenses on their UK website is impossible as they don't deliver to Ireland. If you order on the Irish website identical lenses cost between 40 and 60 % more. This has nothing to do with higher costs as postage to the two countries is pretty much the same and they are presumably shipped from the same place in the UK. They simply charge these prices because they get away with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    tomdublin wrote: »
    But none of this explains the ripoff regarding contact lenses from that same company.
    It can explain why there might be a lack of competition, which is one of the main reasons for the high price.

    As always in these threads they only compare the company with what they charge in the UK. They stick their head in the sand and refuse to look at what the local competition charge.
    tomdublin wrote: »
    They simply charge these prices because they get away with it.
    +1, and as I said they would be utter idiots not to.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Reesy wrote: »
    Bought glasses in Dublin - EUR 189 for glasses with a free pair. EUR 45 extra per pair for the antireflective coating.

    The brother, who lives in Wales, admired my new glasses & took the product number off the frame and found that in UK, the same deal cost GBP 129 for the same 2 pairs... and GBP 30 only for antireflective coating. That's way more than the exchange rate of 86p to the euro.

    If you get glasses from specsavers, buy them north of the border!

    Here you go without bringing the Conversion rate into it:

    Ireland: 129 euros
    http://www.specsavers.ie/glasses/mens-glasses/abel/

    Netherlands: 139 euros
    http://www.specsavers.nl/brillen/modern/abel/

    Ireland: 189 euros
    http://www.specsavers.ie/glasses/modern/j.c.-02/

    Netherlands: 169 euros
    http://www.specsavers.nl/brillen/modern/j.c.-02/

    Ireland: 149 euros
    http://www.specsavers.ie/glasses/modern/f.c.-96/

    Netherlands: 169 euros
    http://www.specsavers.nl/brillen/modern/f.c.-96/

    Its just the way companies price things per market, some items sell better than others.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    rubadub wrote: »
    It can explain why there might be a lack of competition, which is one of the main reasons for the high price.

    As always in these threads they only compare the company with what they charge in the UK. They stick their head in the sand and refuse to look at what the local competition charge.

    +1, and as I said they would be utter idiots not to.

    Yes but it also has to do with passive Irish consumers who are willing to pay these prices. If you go to getlenses.ie and several other websites you can buy contact lenses at roughly UK prices, it really just takes a bit of searching.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭aujopimur


    Specsavers would sell glasses to a blind man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    Looking at the 2 sites, the difference is quite small and on one day acuvues, the Irish site is about 25% cheaper.

    comparison

    one day acuvue 90 day supply, UK £120 (€159 incl extra vat), Ireland €120
    Ciba Vision Daily, IK £87 (€117 incl extra vat), Ireland €125

    Coopervision frequency monthly £28.50 (€38 incl extra vat) Ireland €40

    Mostly the difference is about 5% and that is probably explained by shipping costs. Whereas one day acuvue are made in Ireland and hence are more expensive than UK.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,247 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Should have gone to Vision Express.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    Acuvue Advance for Astigmatism 3 month supply

    Specsavers UK site: 46.00 Pounds

    Specasvers Irish site: 75 Euro

    There is no VAT on glasses or contact lenses in either country as far as I know so that doesn't help explain the difference


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    tomdublin wrote: »
    Acuvue Advance for Astigmatism 3 month supply

    Specsavers UK site: 46.00 Pounds

    Specasvers Irish site: 75 Euro

    There is no VAT on glasses or contact lenses in either country as far as I know so that doesn't help explain the difference

    Nope, Normal rate of VAT (23%) applies on contacts and spectacles in the Republic:

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/decision-detail-00619.jsp
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/decision-detail-00940.jsp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    tomdublin wrote: »
    Acuvue Advance for Astigmatism 3 month supply

    Specsavers UK site: 46.00 Pounds

    Specasvers Irish site: 75 Euro

    There is no VAT on glasses or contact lenses in either country as far as I know so that doesn't help explain the difference

    vat @20% uk, vat at 23% Ireland.

    Yes - this is one price anomaly in favour of the UK site and likewise, the acuvue daily shows a similar price anomaly in favour of the Irish site.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    tomdublin wrote: »
    that doesn't help explain the difference
    You have already explain the reason for difference in prices!
    tomdublin wrote: »
    They simply charge these prices because they get away with it.
    It would be very strange to expect the same market demands in different countries/regions. So people should be pointing out and/or questioning oddities like when product ARE the same price. Not when they are different, which is the expected norm.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    rubadub wrote: »
    You have already explain the reason for difference in prices!

    It would be very strange to expect the same market demands in different countries/regions. So people should be pointing out and/or questioning oddities like when product ARE the same price. Not when they are different, which is the expected norm.

    It has nothing to do with basic market demand (optical products are a necessity for those who need them in either country). It's a problem of Irish consumers somehow being so passive/ill-informed/complacent that they allow themselves to be ripped off without much resistance. It's exactly the same with the supermarkets, pharmacies, dentists, GPs, the semi-state energy suppliers etc where Irish prices are phenomenally above those in almost every other European country. There is a strange culture of acceptance and passivity here. The other problem is that various governments have traditionally favoured suppliers over consumers and shied away from effective counter-measures such as facilitating parallel imports, cracking down on price cartels and rigged supply chains, and strengthening consumer protection legislation.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    tomdublin wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with basic market demand (optical products are a necessity for those who need them in either country). It's a problem of Irish consumers somehow being so passive/ill-informed/complacent that they allow themselves to be ripped off without much resistance. It's exactly the same with the supermarkets, pharmacies, dentists, GPs, the semi-state energy suppliers etc where Irish prices are phenomenally above those in almost every other European country. There is a strange culture of acceptance and passivity here. The other problem is that various governments have traditionally favoured suppliers over consumers and shied away from effective counter-measures such as facilitating parallel imports, cracking down on price cartels and rigged supply chains, and strengthening consumer protection legislation.

    Nah, its the exact same here in the Netherlands.
    In fact, I usually buy all my clothes in Ireland/The UK because its a bit cheaper.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    tomdublin wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with basic market demand (optical products are a necessity for those who need them in either country). It's a problem of Irish consumers somehow being so passive/ill-informed/complacent that they allow themselves to be ripped off without much resistance. It's exactly the same with the supermarkets, pharmacies, dentists, GPs, the semi-state energy suppliers etc where Irish prices are phenomenally above those in almost every other European country. There is a strange culture of acceptance and passivity here. The other problem is that various governments have traditionally favoured suppliers over consumers and shied away from effective counter-measures such as facilitating parallel imports, cracking down on price cartels and rigged supply chains, and strengthening consumer protection legislation.

    Problem is, you'll believe anything you read in hysterical red tops and not do any checking yourself
    Pharmacy - the majority of prescription drugs are now sold at the EU average. (there is a specific calculation)
    GPs - average price is €50, which surprisingly is similar to many European countries when you exclude subsidies.
    Supermarkets - on average, there's no difference, hence very few southern shoppers in Newry these days.
    Electricity - sorry, but ESB domestic tariff is in the LOWER half of eu prices. (eurostat)

    But if you think the UK is so brilliant, move there. There's nothing to stop you. (don't forget to pay £2700 av council tax + £400 water charges, + higher fuel bills, + higher income tax, + higher electricity bills etc etc)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Don't forget benefits higher here and £9000 university tuition fee per student in UK, average student debt per student expected to hit £53.000 in coming years


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    sandin wrote: »
    Problem is, you'll believe anything you read in hysterical red tops and not do any checking yourself
    Pharmacy - the majority of prescription drugs are now sold at the EU average. (there is a specific calculation)
    GPs - average price is €50, which surprisingly is similar to many European countries when you exclude subsidies.
    Supermarkets - on average, there's no difference, hence very few southern shoppers in Newry these days.
    Electricity - sorry, but ESB domestic tariff is in the LOWER half of eu prices. (eurostat)

    But if you think the UK is so brilliant, move there. There's nothing to stop you. (don't forget to pay £2700 av council tax + £400 water charges, + higher fuel bills, + higher income tax, + higher electricity bills etc etc)

    Don't even know where to start... my GP charges 60 Euro per 10 minute appointment, which gives her an annual income of almost a million and is way way way above what any GP anywhere else in the EU gets. In countries with social insurance systems GPs typically can still charge as much as they want but their earning potential is basically capped as insurance companies will only pay a certain amount (usually around 15-25 Euro per appointment). Irish supermarket food prices are the highest in the EU after Denmark and Luxembourg, not to mention dentists and on and on and on...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    tomdublin wrote: »
    There is a strange culture of acceptance and passivity here.
    It will change from country to country, that's what I really meant by changes in market demands, rather than number of people per capita who require a product. If you are in a country with no culture of looking for bargains you can get away with charging more, if there is a difference in available competition it will help, e.g. if you are selling here and know that many online sellers do not sell to this country then you have less competition than you would if selling in the UK.
    tomdublin wrote: »
    my GP charges 60 Euro per 10 minute appointment, which gives her an annual income of almost a million and is way way way above what any GP anywhere else in the EU gets
    What do you reckon most GPs get? I would like to see that same strange calculation done backwards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Tom if you begrudge your GP his/her fees, you can always do what he did, go back to school, sit the leaving cert and get results in the top 1%, apply to Uni, study for 6 years, run up huge student debts, do your internship then hope you are one of the lucky few you get on a GP scheme, open a clinic and wait for years to build up a patient list or buy in to a practice by paying an enormous fee and then after all that, you too can charge €60 to provide diagnosis/advice/treatment which will help ill people get better and often save lives.

    Simples really, don't know why more people don't do it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,247 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    davo10 wrote: »
    Tom if you begrudge your GP his/her fees, you can always do what he did, go back to school, sit the leaving cert and get results in the top 1%, apply to Uni, study for 6 years, run up huge student debts, do your internship then hope you are one of the lucky few you get on a GP scheme, open a clinic and wait for years to build up a patient list or buy in to a practice by paying an enormous fee and then after all that, you too can charge €60 to provide diagnosis/advice/treatment which will help ill people get better and often save lives.

    Simples really, don't know why more people don't do it.

    Or do what increasing numbers of cash-strapped people are doing now, i.e. suffer in silence and hope that whatever's wrong isn't serious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    tomdublin wrote: »
    Irish supermarket food prices are the highest in the EU after Denmark and Luxembourg,.

    as I said - move to the other great countries. Nothing stopping you.

    BTW - the supermarket survey you are quoting was based on prices taken in February 2011 and also showed the difference between Ireland, France, Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, & Norway was a mere 3%. (113% of average - 116 of average) The UK scored 104% of average, but sterling/euro rate at the time was 93p - if the survey was done today, the Uk would rank more expensive than Ireland.


    As for the GP - plenty charging €50 or less and there are now some GPs offering annual fees for familes for unlimited trips - if you don;t look for the lower prices, you won't get them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    What do you reckon most GPs get? I would like to see that same strange calculation done backwards.

    60 Euro for a 10 min appointment is 360 Euro an hour, 14,400 a week (assuming she works 40 hours a week) and 691,200 a year (assuming she takes a 4 week holiday). That's gross income and she will have some expenses but these are probably pretty minimal by comparison.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    rubadub wrote: »
    It will change from country to country, that's what I really meant by changes in market demands, rather than number of people per capita who require a product. If you are in a country with no culture of looking for bargains you can get away with charging more, if there is a difference in available competition it will help, e.g. if you are selling here and know that many online sellers do not sell to this country then you have less competition than you would if selling in the UK.


    What do you reckon most GPs get? I would like to see that same strange calculation done backwards.

    60 Euro for a 10 min appointment is 360 Euro an hour, 14,400 a week (assuming she works 40 hours a week) and 691,200 a year (assuming she takes a 4 week holiday). That's gross income and she will have some expenses but these are probably pretty minimal by comparison.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    What business is it of yours what a GP makes?, your only concern should be if the GP is good and whether you are willing to pay the fee charged, if not, check around to find a cheaper one.

    In regard to visits, do you think every visit lasts 10 mins, what if it takes 30 mins to discuss an illness with a patient, what if he is called away from clinic for an hour to do a home visit etc etc. what about staff costs, rates, mortgage, tax, heating, esb, telephone, the huge indemnity insurance GP's must pay for. Surely you do not think the GP gets to keep the full visit fee.

    As with all services, if you are not happy, go somewhere else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    davo10 wrote: »
    What business is it of yours what a GP makes?, your only concern should be if the GP is good and whether you are willing to pay the fee charged, if not, check around to find a cheaper one.

    In regard to visits, do you think every visit lasts 10 mins, what if it takes 30 mins to discuss an illness with a patient, what if he is called away from clinic for an hour to do a home visit etc etc. what about staff costs, rates, mortgage, tax, heating, esb, telephone, the huge indemnity insurance GP's must pay for. Surely you do not think the GP gets to keep the full visit fee.

    As with all services, if you are not happy, go somewhere else.

    strange that someone can be so defensive on behalf of a blatantly parasitic special interest group many of whose members are enriching themselves on the backs of the sick and vulnerable simply because they can.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Of course GP's make a living off the sick, well people usually don't go to the Doctor. Doctors are not parasites, like any other service provider, they offer a service which people can choose to avail of.

    As for "enriching themselves", clinics are small businesses and the aim as with all businesses is to make a profit . GP's are not Samaritans and their business is not philanthropic.

    If you do not want to pay a Doctor, don't go. Same with opticians, dentists, hair dressers, restaurants, dry cleaners etc etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    davo10 wrote: »
    Of course GP's make a living off the sick, well people usually don't go to the Doctor. Doctors are not parasites, like any other service provider, they offer a service which people can choose to avail of.

    If you do not want to pay a Doctor, don't go. Same with opticians, dentists, hair dressers, restaurants, dry cleaners etc etc

    No, it's not the same. Unlike GPs, hairdressers and dry cleaners provide services people can forego without risking their health or even their lives. High barriers to entry in the medical profession (which are necessary) and limited geographical mobility of the service users (if you are sick you don't want to travel to the other end of town to save ten Euro, and you can't order a GP online) mean that competitive pressures will not significantly reduce prices. For that reason GP fees are capped in every European country apart form Ireland where the IMO's stranglehold over the political process is enormous (as is again evident as we speak....)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    In which countries are private GPs prices capped? The IMO cannot set high fees, it would be anti-competitive and illegal. The IMO is a representative body only, it can negotiate on medical card fees but not private fees.

    The Government cannot interfere with a private industry no more than it can interfere with the prices charged by restaurants, shoe shops, or manufacturing companies etc. The market sets the price and in this case as with every other, the consumer wants to pay as little as possible, the provider wants to charge as much as possible and the real price is somewhere in between.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    davo10 wrote: »
    In which countries are private GPs prices capped?

    In every country with some form of social insurance model (i.e. every West European country apart from Ireland and the UK) insurance companies set the maximum price they pay for a consultation (sometimes it's set by the government instead). In some systems GPs are free to charge more if they wish, but in reality very few do as patients are generally not willing to pay the difference out of their own pocket and they can always find another GP who works within the insurance framework. That's why a German, French or Danish GP earns 20 Euro for a consultation and his Irish colleague three times more and that's why the IMO will probably kill of any attempt to introduce a social insurance model in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    I'm afraid you do not understand the economics of the issue. In Germany there is a very high taxation rate which includes a contribution towards medical insurance. This benefits only those who use the service and penalises those who do not. Would you be willing to pay a much higher insurance contribution every week to have lower cost GP visits.

    The medical card provides free medical care for a large proportion of the Irish population.

    Also the German model you refer to applies only to participating GP's, private GPs are free to charge what they like same as in Ireland.

    Most EU countries educate many more medical students than Ireland, I have no idea how much it costs the State to run a medical school nor how much it costs to educate each student but I bet it's a pretty penny.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    davo10 wrote: »
    I'm afraid you do not understand the economics of the issue. In Germany there is a very high taxation rate which includes a contribution towards medical insurance. This benefits only those who use the service and penalises those who do not. Would you be willing to pay a much higher insurance contribution every week to have lower cost GP visits.

    The medical card provides free medical care for a large proportion of the Irish population.

    Also the German model you refer to applies only to participating GP's, private GPs are free to charge what they like same as in Ireland.

    As for private GPs and hospitals yes that's what I'm saying there are some, but it's only a very small proportion (I don't know the precise figure off my head but you can look it up easily). I'm generally pretty pro free market but health is different as it's not really a service that anyone "wants" to use. Making sure that everyone who is sick can afford to see a doctor is just the way a civilized society should operate, and if that means that GPs will only earn 15,000 Euro a month instead of 50,000 then that's a price worth paying.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Again, in Ireland you pay only if you need to see a GP, in Germany everyone must pay high insurance contributions from their wages regardless if you need to see a GP or not, so each year you pay a lot more than a "fee per item" system.

    Your figures assume that every patient is a private patient paying €60 per visit. I have no idea what the percentage is but I bet with the significant increase in the number of people who possess medical cards, private patients are a low percentage of average daily patients seen by a GP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    davo10 wrote: »
    Again, in Ireland you pay only if you need to see a GP, in Germany everyone must pay high insurance contributions from their wages regardless if you need to see a GP or not, so each year you pay a lot more than a "fee per item" system.

    Your figures assume that every patient is a private patient paying €60 per visit. I have no idea what the percentage is but I bet with the significant increase in the number of people who possess medical cards, private patients are a low percentage of average daily patients seen by a GP.

    Yes that's the idea of insurance... but the premiums you pay are based on your ability to pay (high income earners pay more while low incomes are subsidized on a sliding scale), and the system is completely free at the point of use. As an overall proportion of GDP Germany doesn't spend much more on its health system than Ireland. Doctors earn much less (but still a decent enough wage), and there is no HSE-style bureaucracy packed with PR advisers, HR consultants and similar wasters. The system has its faults but overall it's quite equitable and efficient and extremely popular.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Tom I can't argue with you about the merits of the German or French medical model, thankfully my dealing with GPs extends only to a twice yearly visit to get prescriptions for salbutamol for which I pay €50 each time. But if the Givernment were to increase taxes to German/French/Danish levels to improve the Health system, you would have a lot of resistance from the hard pressed tax payers here.

    The fees charged in the countries you mention are based on an insurance scheme as you have rightly pointed out but we do not have the advantages nor disadvantages such a scheme would impart.

    My viewpoint on your post is based only on your assumption that every patient a GP sees means he is paid €60 and that he/she gets to keep that whole fee to spend as wished, this is simply not true. Everyone would like a better, more efficiently run health system where fees are low and quality is high but this will never happen unless we are willing to pay more taxes which would cost considerably more than the occasional €60 fee when you need to avail of a GPs services.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomdublin


    davo10 wrote: »
    Tom I can't argue with you about the merits of the German or French medical model, thankfully my dealing with GPs extends only to a twice yearly visit to get prescriptions for salbutamol for which I pay €50 each time. But if the Givernment were to increase taxes to German/French/Danish levels to improve the Health system, you would have a lot of resistance from the hard pressed tax payers here.

    The fees charged in the countries you mention are based on an insurance scheme as you have rightly pointed out but we do not have the advantages nor disadvantages such a scheme would impart.

    My viewpoint on your post is based only on your assumption that every patient a GP sees means he is paid €60 and that he/she gets to keep that whole fee to spend as wished, this is simply not true. Everyone would like a better, more efficiently run health system where fees are low and quality is high but this will never happen unless we are willing to pay more taxes which would cost considerably more than the occasional €60 fee when you need to avail of a GPs services.

    I buy my Salbutamol in Spain :-) No GP-prescription ripoff and it costs much less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    So do I by the dozen, its the thing that does piss me off, that here I need a prescription for it. But if I don't go abroad for a year, I have to see a GP.

    To finish off, even for €60 a visit, I still couldn't do the job a GP does, to many sick people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭minkynuts


    Today I had to go to the GP, I was in the surgery less than 2 mins and I told him my symptoms, he wrot a script and I walked out to pay 50 Euros for two mins, taking into account delays between patients entering that still gets him €1000.00 an hour, I have had my pay cut by a third to keep my bass in business
    Pay cuts to GPs have never been heard of


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    minkynuts wrote: »
    Today I had to go to the GP, I was in the surgery less than 2 mins and I told him my symptoms, he wrot a script and I walked out to pay 50 Euros for two mins, taking into account delays between patients entering that still gets him €1000.00 an hour, I have had my pay cut by a third to keep my bass in business
    Pay cuts to GPs have never been heard of


    So how did he know your symptoms? - Was it pure guesswork?

    Or possibly was it becasue he went through 7 years of college and was able to understand your symptoms due to his learned knowledge?

    And you also assume that its 2 minutes for EVERY patient (I'll bet it was a lot more than 2 mins for you, as in 2 mins you barely be able to expaling the issues)

    I see women getting hair done and paying €120 for 2 hours of sitting in a chair - does that equate to a hardresser getting €60/hour or €480 a day or almost €2500 aweek or 125k a year - methinks not

    OR joe Duffy who gets paid €286,000 for doing 1hour 15 minute a day for 210 days a year, thats €1000 an hour under your calculations too!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭minkynuts


    When you have a pain in the shoulder , you know the symptoms "pain in the shoulder". And yes I was in ther sugery 2 mins I times it as I had had this before . And Sandin if I think a service is too costly I can shop around for a better deal, the GPs have a monopoly, I can Turn Joe Duffy offbut when I am ill I cannot shop around for the doctor, I have to go to the Dr who has my records. before I retiurned to Ireland I worked in England and the Doctors there did not have a gravy train as they do here


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Good article in today's Sunday times business section by Jill Kerby. The gist of it is that she gladly pays €50 to be seen quickly by her Doctor only when she needs to be seen. She does not think it is a good idea to add 2500 Doctors to the "loss making bureaucratic nightmare" that is the HSE. Also by paying her Doctor privately "he doesn't make the sick wait a week or more to see him as happens with GP patients in Britain and even parts of Canada where famaily Doctors are also employees of the State and where they conduct their profession as the state dictates". Private GPs have privately employed staff and are responsible for clinic running costs. NHS trusts pay staff and costs in the UK.

    Her article begins, "Careful what you wish for"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭sandin


    minkynuts wrote: »
    When you have a pain in the shoulder , you know the symptoms "pain in the shoulder". And yes I was in ther sugery 2 mins I times it as I had had this before . And Sandin if I think a service is too costly I can shop around for a better deal, the GPs have a monopoly, I can Turn Joe Duffy offbut when I am ill I cannot shop around for the doctor, I have to go to the Dr who has my records. before I retiurned to Ireland I worked in England and the Doctors there did not have a gravy train as they do here

    GP's don't have a monopoly. Shop around and prices will vary from €35 - €60, there are even some places that offer an annual package of visit as often as you like.

    And like anything - you do the shopping around before you need the service, and for something as simple as a pain in the shoulder a decent pharmacist would have been my first port of call - they are very well trained too, would have probably put you at ease and at no cost.

    Doctors in UK are susbsidised by the NHS through way higher taxes - remember that in England you paid tax on even low earnings and the bands went up quicker and then you had council tax too!! - and childrens allowance was a ,lot lowerr as were most social payments. England imo is a crap country, hence many people like to get out asap.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭otto_26


    whippet wrote: »
    use your new glasses and start reading some of the multitudes of threads on here regarding the pricing differential between Ireland & the UK .... its not all black and white.

    - Rents
    - Rates
    - Costs of Labour
    - VAT rates
    - electric
    - heat
    - Wage costs
    - Administration costs
    - Smaller market
    - importation and distribution costs

    All of these will have the impact on the price in ireland and likewise the UK costs will impact the price in the UK.

    Ireland and the UK are to totally different markets with totally different market forces and thus will not have the same price.

    What a load of rubbish!!

    They also have all this in the UK:

    - Rents
    - Rates
    - Costs of Labour
    - VAT rates
    - electric
    - heat
    - Wage costs
    - Administration costs
    - Council tax rates
    - Water rates

    BUT HAVE

    50% less tax to pay in Ireland

    Tesco made a higher net profit in Ireland than UK per shop last year for 2 reasons 50% less tax to pay and higher prices..

    Higher prices are because the Irish will pay just like specsavers....Simple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    otto_26 wrote: »
    What a load of rubbish!!

    They also have all this in the UK:

    - Rents
    - Rates
    - Costs of Labour
    - VAT rates
    - electric
    - heat
    - Wage costs
    - Administration costs
    - Council tax rates
    - Water rates

    BUT HAVE

    50% less tax to pay in Ireland

    Tesco made a higher net profit in Ireland than UK per shop last year for 2 reasons 50% less tax to pay and higher prices..

    Higher prices are because the Irish will pay just like specsavers....Simple.

    So its not really a rip off Ireland thread is it, I've posted examples where they charge more in the Netherlands than in Ireland and more in Ireland than the Netherlands.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement