Dads having a baby: A Bodyshock Special.

bitter_lemon

did anybody see this last night on ch4 @9pm? basically it was about 2 women who wanted to be men and had transgendered surgery. they met in a lesbian group and fell in love and had a relationship. so they are now identify as 2 gay men - thats how they call themselves in case the pc brigade get onto me!
there is obviously a difference between gender and sexuality recognition.
one had full reassignment surgery while the other retained her female reproductive organs and only half transitioned.
they opted for donor sperm and one of the guys got pregnant and had a baby.
now i found this documentary very interesting and i asked a lot of peoples opinions on this albeit mostly straight. (time and place and circumstances ) i tend to agree with their opinion.
why if you want to be a guy do you want to have a baby? men can't have babies. if you want to be a man be a man. if you want to be a woman be a woman. what is this all about?
i am struggling to understand this. and the irony is i argued it in their defense but i really honestly don't understand this.
is this a case of having your cake and eating it?

SugarHigh

bitter_lemon wrote: »

did anybody see this last night on ch4 @9pm? basically it was about 2 women who wanted to be men and had transgendered surgery. they met in a lesbian group and fell in love and had a relationship. so they are now identify as 2 gay men - thats how they call themselves in case the pc brigade get onto me!
there is obviously a difference between gender and sexuality recognition.
one had full reassignment surgery while the other retained her female reproductive organs and only half transitioned.
they opted for donor sperm and one of the guys got pregnant and had a baby.
now i found this documentary very interesting and i asked a lot of peoples opinions on this albeit mostly straight. (time and place and circumstances ) i tend to agree with their opinion.
why if you want to be a guy do you want to have a baby? men can't have babies. if you want to be a man be a man. if you want to be a woman be a woman. what is this all about?
i am struggling to understand this. and the irony is i argued it in their defense but i really honestly don't understand this.
is this a case of having your cake and eating it?

Well I think they can do what they like as long as it's not harming anyone but I agree it's also a bit of a mindfúck.

Chuchoter

I think they both seemed like lovely people and great parents and its not my place to judge where their gender stops and starts in terms of whether men can give birth or not. Its his body and he can do as he pleases.

However, I have to say I don't really agree with people making giant documentaries about this kind of thing and I do feel like its sets back the understanding of the transpeople a bit in the eyes of the general public. I don't really know if we can expect them to understand the entire thing and then the immediate conclusion they will jump to I think will be that the transmen aren't really men at all if they are doing this kind of thing, that they are as you put it 'having their cake and eating it'. I also would question the responsibility of having 4 kids, in an incredibly transphobic town and then making a documentary outing yourself to the world and its mother.

However on a completely different note, when they were making dinner did they put marshmallows on top of like this meat stew type thing? Because thats more of a mind**** than the rest of it.:P

bitter_lemon

the thing that really got to me was the cat chewing on the teat of the babies milk bottle! how unhygienic :mad:

i can't tell if they are lovely people or great parents from that short one hour docu. anyway that is not the issue.

i need someone to explain to me why someone would trangender to a man yet still want to remain with their female traits and bear a child. i need that explained to me.

deirdre_dub

bitter_lemon wrote: »

did anybody see this last night on ch4 @9pm? basically it was about 2 women who wanted to be men and had transgendered surgery. they met in a lesbian group and fell in love and had a relationship. so they are now identify as 2 gay men - thats how they call themselves in case the pc brigade get onto me!
there is obviously a difference between gender and sexuality recognition.
one had full reassignment surgery while the other retained her female reproductive organs and only half transitioned.
they opted for donor sperm and one of the guys got pregnant and had a baby.
now i found this documentary very interesting and i asked a lot of peoples opinions on this albeit mostly straight. (time and place and circumstances ) i tend to agree with their opinion.
why if you want to be a guy do you want to have a baby? men can't have babies. if you want to be a man be a man. if you want to be a woman be a woman. what is this all about?
i am struggling to understand this. and the irony is i argued it in their defense but i really honestly don't understand this.
is this a case of having your cake and eating it?

Transgender people do not want to be a man/woman, transgender people discover that they are a man/woman, and therefore make the completely rational decision to get treatment for their condition.

This decision has consequences for reproductive options. All transgender people embarking on transition have to weight up the relative importance of their need to express their true gender with their need to reproduce.

bitter_lemon

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Transgender people do not want to be a man/woman, transgender people discover that they are a man/woman, and therefore make the completely rational decision to get treatment for their condition.

This decision has consequences for reproductive options. All transgender people embarking on transition have to weight up the relative importance of their need to express their true gender with their need to reproduce.

of course they WANT to be. there is a desire, a need, a want. i have no problem with that. they identify as gay men. your comment makes no sense
if you fully transition you fully transition. what is this all about?

Annasopra

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Transgender people do not want to be a man/woman, transgender people discover that they are a man/woman, and therefore make the completely rational decision to get treatment for their condition.

This decision has consequences for reproductive options. All transgender people embarking on transition have to weight up the relative importance of their need to express their true gender with their need to reproduce.

Yes and also lets not forget that some countries force sterilisation on trans people

deirdre_dub

bitter_lemon wrote: »

of course they WANT to be.

I don't know where you are getting your information from. But I do know that I am a transgender woman, I know that I've told you the truth as I live it, and I also know that you have rejected that truth. I was about to say to you that I do not want to be a woman, and explain what I mean by that statement, when I realised that I would, of course, be wasting my fscking time, because you've obviously decided that you know more about this subject than someone who lives with it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

So enjoy your prejudices. Which means, of course, that you will never actually get satisfactory answers to your "questions" on this documentary.

bitter_lemon

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Yes and also lets not forget that some countries force sterilisation on trans people

what a stupid ignorant comment!
i am interested in learning and challenging this. i don't understand it. i need it to be explained but i guess if you are not in that situation you cannot tell where you are coming from.

Annasopra

bitter_lemon wrote: »

what a stupid ignorant comment!

It's the truth! I have no idea why you have decided it is stupid and ignorant?

bitter_lemon

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I don't know where you are getting your information from. But I do know that I am a transgender woman, I know that I've told you the truth as I live it, and I also know that you have rejected that truth. I was about to say to you that I do not want to be a woman, and explain what I mean by that statement, when I realised that I would, of course, be wasting my fscking time, because you've obviously decided that you know more about this subject than someone who lives with it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

So enjoy your prejudices. Which means, of course, that you will never actually get satisfactory answers to your "questions" on this documentary.

well you can't help me then obviously. you can't speak for these. jesus i'm not bothered now. get off your soapbox for once. its not all about you.

Aishae

i see what your saying, lemon. they know in themselves that theyre men. made the changes they needed - except i couldnt say for sure was one of the guys pre-surgery (intending to have gender realignment surgery) or if he kept the female reproductive system intending to use it.

and as deirdre said, when you change you have to think hard about this side of things.

so back to your post: why - if you change genders and take on everything to do with that gender - would someone chose to keep aspects of the other gender? the one they feel they arent. a bit of a pick and mix situation.

i felt the same questions rising.

bitter_lemon

Johnnymcg wrote: »

It's the truth! I have no idea why you have decided it is stupid and ignorant?

i think you are going off topic :cool:

Annasopra

Mod warning

Can we keep this civil please and stop getting narky with each other

deirdre_dub

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Yes and also lets not forget that some countries force sterilisation on trans people

It was January this year that Germany's Federal Constitutional court ruled that forced sterilisation of German trans people as a prerequisite to gender recognition is unconstitutional. Hopefully those other countries in Europe who still have forced sterilisation as a prerequisite for gender recognition will follow their lead.

Annasopra

bitter_lemon wrote: »

i think you are going off topic :cool:

Think away. It doesn't mean you are right. In a number of countries this could not happen because the law makes it mandatory that a person going through a sex change operation has to be sterilised

bitter_lemon

Aishae wrote: »

i see what your saying, lemon. they know in themselves that theyre men. made the changes they needed - except i couldnt say for sure was one of the guys pre-surgery (intending to have gender realignment surgery) or if he kept the female reproductive system intending to use it.

and as deirdre said, when you change you have to think hard about this side of things.

so back to your post: why - if you change genders and take on everything to do with that gender - would someone chose to keep aspects of the other gender? the one they feel they arent. a bit of a pick and mix situation.

i felt the same questions rising.

thank you aishae. the guy that had the baby - when the credits rolled he was pregnant again so i'm not sure about that.

deirdre_dub

Aishae wrote: »

why - if you change genders and take on everything to do with that gender - would someone chose to keep aspects of the other gender?

Because the reproductive urge is extremely strong in some trans people, just as it is extremely strong in some members of the cisgender population. Hence some trans people will choose to retain the ability to reproduce, even if this means that their transition isn't "complete" on some level.

Also, being trans isn't a black-and-white thing. Some transvestites are actually "part-time transsexuals", for instance.

bitter_lemon

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Because the reproductive urge is extremely strong in some trans people, just as it is extremely strong in some members of the cisgender population.

Also, being trans isn't a black-and-white thing. Some transvestites are actually "part-time transsexuals", for instance.

again why do they identify as gay men?
transvestites have nothing to do with this!

Annasopra

bitter_lemon wrote: »

again why do they identify as gay men?
transvestites have nothing to do with this!

I'm not quite sure what your point is? Do you think that gay men don't want children?

Chuchoter

@bitter_lemon
I think the point that was trying to be made was that transpeople don't want to be anything, they are and they have to take steps to reconcile their bodies to their reality. That reality may or may not mean giving up ever having kids, which is really important to a lot of people. The guy in the show was able to turn something that has always been negative and turn it into a positive thing that allowed him capabilities nobody else has. It doesn't make him less of a man. We decide that men have x kind of body and can do y kind of things, but thats not how it has to be.
This is all keeping in mind of course that yes, transpeople all over the world are sterilized for no reason and that 'fully transitioning' is really expensive and out of reach for many.

bitter_lemon

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Think away. It doesn't mean you are right. In a number of countries this could not happen because the law makes it mandatory that a person going through a sex change operation has to be sterilised

we are not talking about a number of countries. i am talking about the good old U.S. of A! i am focusing on this docu. i'm sure you can give me lots of stats etc. but i am focusing on this. i do not see what this has to do with the price of tomatoes
where is the mod here?

Aishae

bitter_lemon wrote: »

again why do they identify as gay men?
transvestites have nothing to do with this!

they see themselves as being men and thus - gay? im going by the thinking a trans friend of mine has on that though - she was seeing a lady who was also m-f trans and considered themselves to be lesbians at the time. although has since had a relationship with a ,man too but she was confused and wondered - would that mean - due to how she was born - she was in a gay relationship? i guess that how you identify can even come down to circumstances at that very moment in time

hare05

I haven't looked too much into the process of going the FtM route... I can't see a problem with this AS LONG AS the child is not adversely affected during the pregnancy by the treatments the birthing parent is undergoing.

As long as that doesn't hurt the child being born, then I can't imagine a more wondrous thing than a child joining a loving family.

bitter_lemon

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what your point is? Do you think that gay men don't want children?

don't be putting words into my mouth. do gay men have children through their penis? no they don't.

Chuchoter

bitter_lemon wrote: »

don't be putting words into my mouth. do gay men have children through their penis? no they don't.

....what?

hare05

crayolastereo wrote: »

....what?

I think lemons trying to say he's not really a man if he retains his original genetalia.

I don't know how well informed lemon is about the FtM process so I wont jump to reactionary statements.

Chuchoter

bitter_lemon wrote: »

don't be putting words into my mouth. do gay men have children through their penis? no they don't.

Ok well assuming hare is correct, are you basing what gender someone is on what kind of genitalia they have? Because in which case, you really need to know the details.

First of all, the surgeries/hormones in America for FTMs (don't know the story with mtfs) are insanely expensive. Like people hold charity benefits to raise the money expensive. To base how much of a man someone is on what level of surgery they've had is very unfair and classist. Not everyone can afford the surgeries, that doesn't make them less of anything.
Also in terms of the quality of surgeries, basically beyond top surgery, the options aren't stunningly brilliant. Its major surgery and generally just isn't that effective.

On top of that, I don't know if its fair to say that you can't be a man if you don't want or can't have the surgery. I don't think what gender you are is dependent on what you look like. That is way, way too simplistic. If you want to have all the surgeries, as most do, thats great, if you don't thats your own body and I don't think its anyones place to decide what does and what doesn't qualify as male or female.

Links234

bitter_lemon wrote: »

is this a case of having your cake and eating it?

nope.

I'm a transgender woman, I would absolutely LOVE to have kids some day. if there was some way that I could become pregnant then that's absolutely what I would do. but I can't. I'm determined to be a mother some day, so for me that meant freezing sperm. it's my chance at being a parent. I wouldn't have a hope of adopting in this country, so I had to do what I did in order to make kids a possibility for me.

it's more a case of life isn't fair and making do with what you have.

Aishae

i dont think lemon was questioning their desire to be parents. they had adopted twice before. but rather she was questioning why they chose to have a baby using the female reproductive system.

its harder to get your head around it then - after adoption too

you do what you have to do though

Links234

well, I haven't seen the show, so I didn't know any details of the couple involved. just trying to explain why some would use the biological function they have in order to have kids.

hare05

crayolastereo wrote: »

Ok well assuming hare is correct, are you basing what gender someone is on what kind of genitalia they have? Because in which case, you really need to know the details.

First of all, the surgeries/hormones in America for FTMs (don't know the story with mtfs) are insanely expensive. Like people hold charity benefits to raise the money expensive. To base how much of a man someone is on what level of surgery they've had is very unfair and classist. Not everyone can afford the surgeries, that doesn't make them less of anything.
Also in terms of the quality of surgeries, basically beyond top surgery, the options aren't stunningly brilliant. Its major surgery and generally just isn't that effective.

On top of that, I don't know if its fair to say that you can't be a man if you don't want or can't have the surgery. I don't think what gender you are is dependent on what you look like. That is way, way too simplistic. If you want to have all the surgeries, as most do, thats great, if you don't thats your own body and I don't think its anyones place to decide what does and what doesn't qualify as male or female.

Was hoping for a clarifying response before anyone jumped on this... meh

As mentioned above, medical options are hit/miss and hideously expensive, while adoption may not be a viable option considering the possibility of prejudice, not to talk about the legal headaches of inheritance, etc, which may be muddled along the way.

Men are quite often pragmatic. He has a vagina. He may not have the option or the finances to fix that. So why not use it?

Chuchoter

Show is here if anyone wants to see it:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/bodyshock/4od

bitter_lemon

they both had good jobs and lived a comfortable lifestyle. money was not an option.

in all my years on this earth i would not be so blinkered to say something and not be able to back up my statements. again i reiterate i am questioning this - not being nasty. i am questioning it. there is no point in giving me a mtf view. it is not accurate. its like a bisexual speaking for a lesbian.
sorry if i come across blunt but i have no time for messing around. and those who are offended and defensive yet again there is no malice just an answer to my query.

Chuchoter

bitter_lemon wrote: »

they both had good jobs and lived a comfortable lifestyle. money was not an option.

One was a satellite TV technician and the other worked night shifts at a care home. They weren't destitute but not wealthy either. Then they have 4 kids to mind, and having a baby no matter who you are is in and around 12,000 (just for the birth now), not taking into account any complications.

Links234

anyway, give bitter lemon some slack, they're coming across a bit tense. but the questions are perfectly fair, and deserve a reply.

bitter_lemon wrote: »

of course they WANT to be. there is a desire, a need, a want. i have no problem with that. they identify as gay men. your comment makes no sense
if you fully transition you fully transition. what is this all about?

Couple of things here, BL

you say they identify as gay, as if that is a point of note. like, do you expect that a transgender man should be straight? I think we need to understand more of your perspective on this too.

and as for "fully transition",
I think that a full transition is whatever is necessary for a person to feel congruent with their bodies. for some, that's hormones, genital reassignment surgery, top surgery and possibly more, or for others it's just hormones. but for each person, that's a full transition, because they've fulfilled whatever steps they need to become comfortable with their bodies.

hope that helps

bitter_lemon

crayolastereo wrote: »

One was a satellite TV technician and the other worked night shifts at a care home. They weren't destitute but not wealthy either. Then they have 4 kids to mind, and having a baby no matter who you are is in and around 12,000 (just for the birth now), not taking into account any complications.

correction. they had 2 kids. then the baby and a zoo also. and they spent a fortune on groceries!

Chuchoter

bitter_lemon wrote: »

correction. they had 2 kids. then the baby and a zoo also. and they spent a fortune on groceries!

The 2 kids, then the baby, then the second baby. Thats 4 kids.

bitter_lemon

Links234 wrote: »

anyway, give bitter lemon some slack, they're coming across a bit tense. but the questions are perfectly fair, and deserve a reply.



Couple of things here, BL

you say they identify as gay, as if that is a point of note. like, do you expect that a transgender man should be straight? I think we need to understand more of your perspective on this too.

and as for "fully transition",
I think that a full transition is whatever is necessary for a person to feel congruent with their bodies. for some, that's hormones, genital reassignment surgery, top surgery and possibly more, or for others it's just hormones. but for each person, that's a full transition, because they've fulfilled whatever steps they need to become comfortable with their bodies.

hope that helps

if you looked back on my earlier post i did say that gender identity and sexuality were 2 different things. so that is null and void. can we move on from that? of course i accept that. i have been around the block here. i am far from ignorant.

so are you saying that if they identify as gay men they are not? i am confused. they were quite adamant about that. they are not. that is what i am questioning hence the comment about giving birth through their penis when they obviously have a fully operational womb.
and the stupid comments about did i not think gay men should not adopt i wouldn't waste my fingers replying to.

bitter_lemon

crayolastereo wrote: »

The 2 kids, then the baby, then the second baby. Thats 4 kids.

lets not split hairs like everybody else does. they had 2 kids. they had the baby. they moved. the 2nd baby is neither here or there. it was after the programme. they had them jobs when they were preparing for the first baby.

reallyrose

Disclaimer: I am a bag of ignorance, so if i offend it's because I'm a dumbass, not a regular ass.

I have no issue with anyone physically capable of having kids from having them, as long as they can provide a stable home and a decent upbringing to the kid.

However, yer man in the documentary needed to take a lot of hormones and put his body through a lot to get to the point he is at.
Would pregnancy not really screw his system up? Like, pulling his hormones in two directions at once?
Surely that wouldn't be good for his health?

Links234

bitter_lemon wrote: »

so are you saying that if they identify as gay men they are not? i am confused. they were quite adamant about that. they are not.

I think we've got some lines crossed here?

I'm just watching the Documentary now, so I'll finish that before replying any further.

Chuchoter

reallyrose wrote: »

Disclaimer: I am a bag of ignorance, so if i offend it's because I'm a dumbass, not a regular ass.

I have no issue with anyone physically capable of having kids from having them, as long as they can provide a stable home and a decent upbringing to the kid.

However, yer man in the documentary needed to take a lot of hormones and put his body through a lot to get to the point he is at.
Would pregnancy not really screw his system up? Like, pulling his hormones in two directions at once?
Surely that wouldn't be good for his health?

You have to go off all the hormones to be pregnant, which isn't great emotionally but I can't imagine its amazing health wise either to be flipping back and forth.

bitter_lemon wrote: »

if you looked back on my earlier post i did say that gender identity and sexuality were 2 different things. so that is null and void. can we move on from that? of course i accept that. i have been around the block here. i am far from ignorant.

so are you saying that if they identify as gay men they are not? i am confused. they were quite adamant about that. they are not. that is what i am questioning hence the comment about giving birth through their penis when they obviously have a fully operational womb.
and the stupid comments about did i not think gay men should not adopt i wouldn't waste my fingers replying to.

So what is your point then? Are you saying/asking whether they qualify as men, sexuality aside?

bitter_lemon

reallyrose wrote: »

Disclaimer: I am a bag of ignorance, so if i offend it's because I'm a dumbass, not a regular ass.

I have no issue with anyone physically capable of having kids from having them, as long as they can provide a stable home and a decent upbringing to the kid.

However, yer man in the documentary needed to take a lot of hormones and put his body through a lot to get to the point he is at.
Would pregnancy not really screw his system up? Like, pulling his hormones in two directions at once?
Surely that wouldn't be good for his health?

he went through female puberty, then took testosterone and went through through male puberty and then stopped taking them and then went through hormonal pregnancy. yes it is a rollercoster effect to put your body through.

bitter_lemon

crayolastereo wrote: »

So what is your point then? Are you saying/asking whether they qualify as men, sexuality aside?

you seem to be saying my points for me!
i'm not repeating myself here. i'm getting bored at this stage. my former posts say it all. i know a few trans people and they either want to be a man or a woman and identify as such. what social circles do you surround yourself in? maybe you could shed a bit of light?

Links234

ok, just watching some of the documentary now, and on the question of why one of the guys wouldn't get genital surgery, something occurs. the two are married, because one of them is legally male, and the other is still legally female. I'm only a few minutes in, but... suppose the one guy didn't want genital surgery, because if he was to be legally male, they might be required to dissolve the marriage? it's another reason why someone might not want to have surgery.

reallyrose

bitter_lemon wrote: »

he went through female puberty, then took testosterone and went through through male puberty and then stopped taking them and then went through hormonal pregnancy. yes it is a rollercoster effect to put your body through.

Ugh, poor guy. Can't be fun.

Chuchoter

Your original question seemed to be 'Is this person having their cake and eating it?'.
The basic answer is that gender isn't that simple. In my own experience, it goes way beyond male and female. If it was that black and white life would be great.

As time went on, you seemed to be saying that unless you have all the surgeries you can't call yourself a man. Or if giving birth made him not a man. This was also explained.

To be honest I can't tell what is a question and what are statements you are making.

Links234

*Sigh*

watching this makes me think just how badly I'd love to have a baby

bitter_lemon

crayolastereo wrote: »

Your original question seemed to be 'Is this person having their cake and eating it?'.
The basic answer is that gender isn't that simple. In my own experience, it goes way beyond male and female. If it was that black and white life would be great.

As time went on, you seemed to be saying that unless you have all the surgeries you can't call yourself a man. Or if giving birth made him not a man. This was also explained.

To be honest I can't tell what is a question and what are statements you are making.

so stop trying to give your handle on my thoughts. it is a debate and if you have not the maturity to comprehend it obviously. gender is never simple. it is complex. the same for sexuality. you would know theres no school for you tomorrow :rolleyes:
i refuse to repeat myself!

Chuchoter

bitter_lemon wrote: »

so stop trying to give your handle on my thoughts. it is a debate and if you have not the maturity to comprehend it obviously. gender is never simple. it is complex. the same for sexuality. you would know theres no school for you tomorrow :rolleyes:
i refuse to repeat myself!

You don't get to waltz into a thread, make frankly offensive statements about the men in the show and then provide no back up as to why you think anything. If we want to get into maturity or the ability to argue, I have put forward in a very clear manner my answer to what you said yourself was a question on an area you knew little about. You on the other hand have made confusing statements about giving birth through penises and people who are gay men not being gay men.

If you're interested in the social circles I travel in, yes actually I am friends with one or two people who are transmen, but to be frank with you, anecdotal evidence of 'my friend feels this way or that way' is irrelevant.