Not cool Blizzard, not cool

TheDoc

This has probably being the first time ever in my WoW time I've being genuinely annoyed at Blizzard and feel they have done something completely unfair.

The following is due to be released in patch 4.1

In patch 4.1 we'll be introducing Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms, a new system intended to lower queue times. Call to Arms will automatically detect which class role is currently the least represented in the queue, and offer them additional rewards for entering the Dungeon Finder queue and completing a random level-85 Heroic dungeon.

Any time the Dungeon Finder queue is longer than a few minutes for level-85 Heroics, the Call to Arms system kicks in and determines which role is the least represented. In the case of tanking being the least represented role, the "Call to Arms: Tanks" icon will display in the Dungeon Finder UI menu where class roles are selected, and will also display on the UI when the queue pops and you are selected to enter a dungeon. Regardless of your role, you'll always be able to see which role currently has been Called to Arms, if any.

Call to Arms is meant to lower wait times by offering additional rewards for queuing as the currently least represented role. To be eligible for the additional rewards you must solo queue for a random level-85 Heroic in the role that is currently being Called to Arms, and complete the dungeon by killing the final boss. Every time you hit these requirements (there is no daily limit) you'll receive a goodie bag that will contain some gold, a chance at a rare gem, a chance at a flask/elixir (determined by spec), a good chance of receiving a non-combat pet (including cross faction pets), and a very rare chance at receiving a mount. The pets offered come from a wide variety of sources, and include companions like the Razzashi Hatchling, Cockatiel, and Tiny Sporebat, but the mounts are those specifically only available through dungeons (not raids), like the Reins of the Raven Lord from Sethekk Halls, Swift White Hawkstrider from Magister's Terrace, and Deathcharger's Reins from Stratholme.

This system is meant to address the unacceptable queue times currently being experienced by those that queue for the DPS role at max level. The long queue times are, of course, caused by a very simple lack of representation in the Dungeon Finder by tanks, and to some extent healers. We don't feel the tanking and healing roles have any inherent issues that are causing the representation disparity, except that fulfilling them carries more responsibility. Understandably, players prefer to take on that responsibility in more organized situations than what the Dungeon Finder offers, but perhaps we can bribe them a little. While this system gives tanks and healers something extra, the incentive is being provided so that we can help players in the DPS role get into more dungeons, get better gear, and continue progressing.

While the gold, gems, flasks, and elixirs are OK incentives, we knew we needed something more substantial. We had briefly considered Valor Points and epics, but decided that wouldn't be working toward the goal of helping DPS players progress, and ultimately wouldn't keep tanks and healers in the Dungeon Finder system for very long. We settled on pets and dungeon-found mounts as they’re cosmetic/achievement items that players tend to try to get on their own, so why not change that up and offer them a chance to get some of those elusive pets and mounts in a way that also helps other players? Even if they don't get a pet or mount, or get one they already have, the gold and other goodies still feel rewarding enough that it won't feel like a waste of effort.

We think it's a pretty solid incentive to get tanks and healers queuing, give max-level players another way to collect the pets and mounts they so desire, and above all, to improve wait times for DPS players sitting in queues. In the case of lower level dungeons, it's actually not uncommon for DPS to be the least represented role, and so if this new system works out and we're pleased with the results, we may consider applying this same mechanic to lower level dungeons as well.

As a dPS I'm pretty incensed. Most healers and tanks you meet i nthe LFG tool are divas anyway and throw little pre maddona fits if things arnt going right, as it is they have power over groups, now they get added incentives for simply playing their class.

Very, very unfair and shouldnt be the solution to get tanks and healers into LFG

What do I get for carrying DPS in most of my random LFG's, sweet **** all...any mounts that drop usually go to the ****ters.


So basically I'm going to go grab myself some resto healing gear for my Druid, and get in so I can get mounts and pets on my main. So whilst this incentive is supposed to bring more tanks and healers to the system, it will, but not good ones, and not for the right reasons.

nix

Read most of that earlier, i assumed everybody in the group would get the bag of goodies??

It doesnt really bother me though as it doesnt effect me or the game and i get to gear my dps faster. And i can avail of the service myself if playing my healer/tank classes.

Is it the mount or other goodies your not happy about them getting?

Or just not happy about the likelyness of ****ty tanks/healers?

TheDoc

nix wrote: »

Read most of that earlier, i assumed everybody in the group would get the bag of goodies??

It doesnt really bother me though as it doesnt effect me or the game and i get to gear my dps faster. And i can avail of the service myself if playing my healer/tank classes.

Is it the mount or other goodies your not happy about them getting?

Or just not happy about the likelyness of ****ty tanks/healers?

If your a TANK or HEALER that join on your own you get the goodie back, DPS get nothing.

I'm incensed by the goody bag, the fact this will give MORE power and diva ****e to tanks and healers, and that there will be a massive influx of completely useless tanks and healers, with no idea how to do either, just to try nick a goody bag with a mount or pet : /

nix

Ah sure, I dont agree with the whole dungeon finder tool myself, takes away alot from the social aspect of the game. Ive met so many cool people when doing instances only to never see them ever again

Alot of tanks/healers are diva's true, but it may introduce good tanks/healers too. I'm also hoping they are able to match up more classes from the same server, if this does increase the instance player base, may also prevent people from being spa's to people they know they are likely never to see again

Count Duckula

Meh, if you don't like it then roll a tank or healer then.

Frankly, if it speeds up queues for the dps then that's a blessing, too.

TheDoc

Count Duckula wrote: »

Meh, if you don't like it then roll a tank or healer then.

Frankly, if it speeds up queues for the dps then that's a blessing, too.

If I don't like playing my DPS roll, I should roll a new character, level him, gear him to Heroic raid content , so that I can get a goody bag that might have a mounth?

Thats the sort of logic that I fear will come out of this change : /

There is surely better incentives to give tanks/healers then vanity items, that are rather rare and DPS cannot get a sniff at : /

ravydavygravy

I'm not too worried - the tank/healer only gets the bag if they sucessfully finish the dungeon - get a bad tank, just kick. Most groups I know are doing this anyway - once you kick a tank, its rarely more than 1-2 mins to get a new one since you get one from the top of the queue.

Anything to bring down the queue times is good. People were paying tanks - now blizzard are paying them for you.

Playboy

ravydavygravy wrote: »

I'm not too worried - the tank/healer only gets the bag if they sucessfully finish the dungeon - get a bad tank, just kick. Most groups I know are doing this anyway - once you kick a tank, its rarely more than 1-2 mins to get a new one since you get one from the top of the queue.

Anything to bring down the queue times is good. People were paying tanks - now blizzard are paying them for you.

Agree with that.

witless1

You are going to see more people attempt to tank / heal which will help queue times no doubt but will add a great sense of frustration. I ran a heroic as Disc last night for the first time this expansion and had to ask the lads on vent what to expect damage wise. I know all the heroic bosses but purely from a ranged DPS point of view. It's the same for the few normal modes I tank on my level 82 DK, I know the fights but the mechanics are a lot more unforgiving for basic things as a tank / healer if you are not prepared for it. I'm hoping with 4.1 and the changes to the weekly caps that more guild runs will happen to avoid solo queuing for heroics. It is a good incentive though but poorly implemented, if they had a wipe counter (like a tribute run) or something it might dissuade reckless play. Geared groups that know each other can chain pull and largely disregard CC. There is nothing more frustrating from a DPS point of view then queuing for 30+ mins to see a tank charge headstrong into a group of mobs and then rage quit. It's that mentality that will come back.


The wording on mmo champions blue posts today though is confusing, they keep inter changing class with role. I know what they are trying to say but it does give some glimmer of hope that they might add a flavour to it. Something like a pop-up saying "dwarf" is least represented and at least then it might give DPS a fair crack at the whip. Wishful thinking I know

tom_ass19

Thought this would be of interest

EU Forums

We’ve been following discussions and reading feedback on the Dungeon Finder Call to Arms feature, and appreciate everyone’s opinions on the topic. We wanted to share a few items though that supplement the recent announcement:

The additional reward for completing the Dungeon Finder Call to Arms (called the Satchel of Exotic Mysteries) will be Bind on Account; able to be freely sent to other characters on your account once you receive it.

An error existed in the announcement regarding flasks and potions being picked based on your spec. This is not the case. If someone earns a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries, and if it rolls the random chance to provide a potion or flask, it will be a randomly selected. This helps ensure a broad array of available flasks and potions for all characters.

We also wanted to clarify, mounts that have a possibility to be found in a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries are found with the same rarity as if you had slain the dungeon boss that normally drops them.

Lone Stone

well i stopped playing a while ago just before those changes were made to druid shape shifting :mad: now that was a kick in the face move, This tho meh i wouldnt care really you will get more people tanking ! It just shows the state the game is in these days if this is the type of move they have to pull to get people tanking.

Gummy Panda

Tbh, tanks have always been in demand for 5 mans.

I was a warrior tank in TBC and would just put up "Prot War T4" in LFG and get flooded with whispers asking me to tank their heroic. I even got offered gold. I thought it was one of the reasons the Death Knight class was brought in, a tank that feels like a DPS when tanking, to encourage more tanks.

DPS got use to short LFD timers in ICC when heroics could be zerged. Most of the tanks I encountered as a DPS at the time were geared and playing "lets see how much of this instance I can pull and survive".

30 min LFD queues for DPS in cata are a pain. I would prefer tanks to get a bonus if it got more geared tanks into the LFD that don't need the majority of a mob pack cc'd.

DRakE

wah wah wah

witless1

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I thought it was one of the reasons the Death Knight class was brought in, a tank that feels like a DPS when tanking, to encourage more tanks.

And that was one of the biggest problems with Death Knights as a class and the perception that others have of them. It worked too well because a simple presence change and they felt like they were tanks. It worked from 60-80 normal dungeons tanking in DPS gear and coming close to topping the meters. When I levelled my DK I switched between tank gear and DPS gear and didn't notice any real frailty because of the rolling CDs you had at your disposal. They were too well designed below max level really. That approach didn't work in heroics or raids where you had to actually tank and deal with mechanics like any other class. Having played one it's not the classes fault it's simply people not being comfortable playing a tank. I don't think this change will help that because your reward is for queuing solo, tanking a group for people you know who can talk you through things is far more valuable a learning experience.

It is good that the items are BoA for people who like to play alts and go for achievements and rare items on their main. I know my DK will be hitting 85 soon and this latest change is certainly encouraging.

settings

i imagine tanks just wont queue until they are guaranteed a goodie bag when this gets implemented. I know i wouldnt

Drakar

Of course they'll queue. Choice for a tank is: queue and get something, or dont queue and get nothing.

Gummy Panda

Queue times are down from 35 mins to 9-12 for dps so it seems have to worked for now.

Sonics2k

And to make things a bit better, you're now more likely to be grouped with people from your own realm than before.

Frankly it never bothered me, but hopefully it'll stop quite a lot of people from not bothering to play properly.

TheDoc

After the initial 2-3 days, back to the normal here on Outland

35 mins average DPS Q for old heroics

25 mins average DPS Q for new heroics

Evenings/late night peaks a bit better, still bout 20 mins a Q for new ones, bout 25 mins for old

Drakar

They may have throttled the number of instance servers to monitor performance, they do that sometimes after big patches, there could be more people doing instances of course too after the patch.

TheDoc

Drakar wrote: »

They may have throttled the number of instance servers to monitor performance, they do that sometimes after big patches, there could be more people doing instances of course too after the patch.

I noticed a spike maybe for 48 hours and then its just back to the normal, if anyone was half competant to raiding then the new instances weren't much use to anyone as they should be geared or finished with Valor

Dermighty

TheDoc wrote: »

As a dPS I'm pretty incensed. Most healers and tanks you meet i nthe LFG tool are divas anyway and throw little pre maddona fits if things arnt going right,

Prima Donna = primary/first lady

TheDoc

er...thanks?

witless1

DPS queue times are as high as ever so whatever spike this system saw is well and truly gone. I can see the times being reduced when 4.2 comes out and entry level purples are available from JP and you have geared raiders looking for instances for VP. There is still no real incentive to PUG for anyone. What I have noticed is the ZA/ZG turnover for tanks and healers is quiet high and DPS are very reluctant to leave a group with another 30 min wait. A single mistake causing a wipe makes either a tank or healer quit out. It took me 90 mins to clear ZA over the weekend, going through 8 tanks and 5 healers. The DPS spots were solid enough so that wasn't the problem. All of our turnover happened on trash where a healer slacked or a tank got adventurous. The one decent tank we got in left after a DPS warrior won a tanking item. Marks seem to mean nothing to some tanks and when you try communicate it they just leave. It's not an enjoyable instance to PUG, yet it's a dream of an instance in an organised group and we had bear runs going the day it came out.

In trying to encourage PUG play for me they have ruined it. I'm after logging in the last couple of nights and logging back out (cba with more alts!) when I don't see people up for an organised run. It's currently just not worth the queue and the time spent in the instance with no guarantee of finishing it. The hassle of trying to guide a group and mark / explain tactics isn't too bad but when you have a high turnover of players it becomes a pain. Items being needed on pointlessly is annoying but thankfully hasn't happened me yet. It's going to take a lot to rescue the system, it's fantastic for leveling up but at end game you want to be in guild runs, for your sanity alone!

degrassinoel

Never in almost 6 years, have i seen so many fcuking useless tanks and healers.

Ungeared, unenchanted, ungemmed piles of shyte all over the place, even met one guy in a random normal* heroic, paladin with blue&green healing gear signed as a tank../sigh

guildgroups all the way.

The bag of goodies is equally worthless, signed as healer(my main spec anyway) a few times to have all the 75g and the daily gold spent on a repair bill at the end. Zg/Za with pugs are just impossible, i'm sick to my eyeteeth explaining to tanks how to kill the chains on jin'do if they even last long enough.
I've even seen groups all drop or blame&votekick the healer on the first boss in zg, because they were too dumb to move from aoe.

You can bet your arse that this new dungeon journal thing will never be read by the halfwits that you meet in pugs too.. bleh!

nice to blow off steam sometimes

Count Duckula

degrassinoel wrote: »

Never in almost 6 years, have i seen so many fcuking useless tanks and healers.

Ungeared, unenchanted, ungemmed piles of shyte all over the place, even met one guy in a random normal* heroic, paladin with blue&green healing gear signed as a tank../sigh

guildgroups all the way.

The bag of goodies is equally worthless, signed as healer(my main spec anyway) a few times to have all the 75g and the daily gold spent on a repair bill at the end. Zg/Za with pugs are just impossible, i'm sick to my eyeteeth explaining to tanks how to kill the chains on jin'do if they even last long enough.
I've even seen groups all drop or blame&votekick the healer on the first boss in zg, because they were too dumb to move from aoe.

You can bet your arse that this new dungeon journal thing will never be read by the halfwits that you meet in pugs too.. bleh!

nice to blow off steam sometimes

I play a shaman healer and can say that, yes, some of my PUGs in ZA/ZG have been a pile of ****e, but most of my groups have been reasonable and successful.

Drakar

Chainheal hacks!

Columc

The healers I have been getting are complete idiots, I am a tank, in full 359 gear and working on my heroic gear I have all my enchants and gems, and when a healer goes OOM after 1 pull you know they have no idea how to play or not geared for that spec.

Instances usualy take forever now, cause after every pull waiting for 30+ seconds.

Dont even get me started on ZA/ZG :<

degrassinoel

359 geared on my healer also, and around 350 with a feral bear spec, and yeah healers that oom after one pull are doing it wrong.

Count Duckula

I don't even see how it's possible to go out of mana on one pull...

Bear in mind too that it might be partly the fault of the dps, 'cos healers no longer have the capability to keep four people healed who are taking damage.

Columc

Count Duckula wrote: »

I don't even see how it's possible to go out of mana on one pull...

Bear in mind too that it might be partly the fault of the dps, 'cos healers no longer have the capability to keep four people healed who are taking damage.

lack of gear, lack of spirit for regan simple as that. It was the same at the start of cata were healers didng have enough regan for there mana pool and oom was the main problem once dinging 85.

Now since people are going healing to get tgoodies/skip the que they dont have enough healing gear, as all DPS gear does not have spirit, spirit is healing only.

What is the WoW population like at the moment?

I played Vanilla until half way through BC - then quit until around 3 months into Wrath.

I quit again around December - the expansion just does nothing for me, I tried but I don't have a desire to play the game. Don't know what has put me off - but I've stopped playing and so has a huge proportion of my former guild.

Would be interested to hear how this expac is performing - in my opinion it is very poor, I liked vashj'r but I didn't find the instances at all fun and the community has worsened a lot.

Count Duckula

I couldn't really get into Cata and stopped playing after a couple of months, but I'm enjoying playing again after four months off. Things seem to have improved quite a lot now it seems.

Berns

Columc wrote: »

as all DPS gear does not have spirit, spirit is healing only.

Prity sure Elemental Shammys and Boomkin Druids get hit from spirit so not as straightforward as that :rolleyes:

Calhoun

degrassinoel wrote: »

I've even seen groups all drop or blame&votekick the healer on the first boss in zg, because they were too dumb to move from aoe.

You can bet your arse that this new dungeon journal thing will never be read by the halfwits that you meet in pugs too.. bleh!

I have just started playing a healer currently running Heroics as i dont have the gear for ZA/ZG but the above rings so true, one of the things i have figured out is you cant heal stupidity as any attempt to do so is just a waste of mana.

Group members need to also understand priority Tank > Healer >=DPS so dont go on a solo run when the tank is attacking something else and from the otherside the tank has to be able to keep up aggro as i occasionally see undergeared tanks who just can't keep up.

Overall though it is a hard issue to fix because supply and demand is at play here and DPS far outnumber tank and healers, maybe if there was an additional time penalty put in place it would make drama queen tank and healers think twice before just dropping.

witless1

Running out of mana is simple if you are healing wrong. My priest is DPS and 365 geared, I run the odd instance as Disc because of the gear overlap and a couple of decent OS pieces. Mana is not an issue and I haven't healed Disc since Ulduar. In guild groups we can chain pull for the most part and in undergeared groups keeping people alive isn't a problem once they play smart. It's all about knowing the cost of your heal and how much you need to heal for. Part of me wants to cry when I see healers spamming the equiv of Flash Heal and wondering how they spent 50k mana in a few seconds.

DPS do have a big part to play in how a healer behaves, normal scripted AoE is healable with no real mana implications. It's spamming the person who aggroed the secondary target or the person standing in fire that kills healers ability to keep the group alive. That makes an experienced or geared healer sweat it at the best of times, it just makes a panicky healer dump an entire mana pool or simply quit out. Even little things like interrupting a mob seems to be lost on most DPS, leaving it to the tank (or healer) to do it. WoW is a very simple game for the most part but people do their best to make it complicated.

From healing on the priest I think if every healing class had a Lifegrip (with no cooldown) it would make instances so easy I must really macro it to whisper the target telling them they were saved from their own stupidity!

TheDoc

Deleted User wrote: »

What is the WoW population like at the moment?

I played Vanilla until half way through BC - then quit until around 3 months into Wrath.

I quit again around December - the expansion just does nothing for me, I tried but I don't have a desire to play the game. Don't know what has put me off - but I've stopped playing and so has a huge proportion of my former guild.

Would be interested to hear how this expac is performing - in my opinion it is very poor, I liked vashj'r but I didn't find the instances at all fun and the community has worsened a lot.

Its horses for courses really.

If your not into raiding this game gets pretty boring quickly imo. I think thats the simplest explanation.

I'd do my barney if I had to run random pug heroics and raids every week, I'd literally have quit in wotlk.

Cata is paced nicely for me in fairness, granted our heroic progression has got slack, I've opporunities to play other characters seriously, I'm able to play other games and do other things without feeling pressured and pushed to the end.

I actually think its been perfectly fine tuned and paced, its not easier despite what some people say , no one wants 8 hour raids again like.

I'm more then happy with the pace and think firelands is coming at just the right time, remember the levelling gap was only 5 levels, I got it within 48 hours so this content is defo going to expire quicker then previous ones

witless1

I just popped onto wowprogress out of curiosity, the top ranked server EU is Ravencrest and currently 3 guilds have seen 13/13 heroic progression with 3 other guilds on 12/12 i.e. cleared all bar the special heroic only boss. Taking a peak at a couple of other realms and very few guilds have cleared 12/12 on heroic mode. To me that's excellent pacing considering the expansion is out for so long.

Even our own progress, which stalled for 2 weeks due to holidays and the double bank holiday, is nicely paced on 5/13. We should be on 6 possibly 7 had those two weeks not been lost as we have had decent attempts on ODS and Valiona. I'm happy to see more people experiencing content as in WOTLK a lot of the player base saw hard modes one tier behind and even then it was 10s rather then 25s when it was relevant. Even looking at the stats above if 4.2 dropped in the morning <10% of a servers raiding population would have the current tier cleared and that's being generous. I'd happily hit 4.2 seeing 10/13 on heroic downed, obviously I would like to see all 13 dead but I am a realist and if I wanted that I would be looking at a more hardcore guild. If I wasn't involved in a raiding guild I would probably be playing a different game, if your not into alts and cannot commit to a raiding guild WoW holds very little to do. That being said just limiting yourself to raiding and your /played a week is going to be <12 hours giving you a lot of time for other games.

degrassinoel

Columc wrote: »

lack of gear, lack of spirit for regan simple as that. It was the same at the start of cata were healers didng have enough regan for there mana pool and oom was the main problem once dinging 85.

Now since people are going healing to get tgoodies/skip the que they dont have enough healing gear, as all DPS gear does not have spirit, spirit is healing only.

that and using entirely the wrong spec and spells, though how people can get spec's wrong these days is beyond me..

seen a druid healer spam the living crap out of regrowth on me (tanking) in stonecore, first pack, kept me alive, fair enough but he was totally oom before the pack had been finished off. Same thing with shamans spamming healing surge.. just /facepalm

StinkyMunkey

Im a bit of a slacker when it comes to reading patch notes. I was wondering why so many tanks and healers where failing in the hc's. My main is a DK, and with the new content i always run as dps, so i get a feel for the hc's. My dps gear is better than my tank geared at the moment, but my tank gear is catching up.

On a number of occassions of late (just started hc's a few weeks ago.) ive had to step in as tank, even though i joined as dps. And for the most part ive been lucky, the pugs ive been in seem to be full of adults or people just learning the new content. Maybe its because i play late at night.

I have half the cata factions now at exalted, so that really helps with picking up tank gear. I generally do one hc a night (dont have time to do more, they take so long in pugs). But im thinking ill be joining more as tank now to pick up the goodie bags

Berns

If you can join as tank or healer, do it basically. Que's were never long and can go at your pace more or less as long as check with the other (the tank or healer dependin on which you are) on mana breaks.

Flojo

Columc wrote: »

spirit is healing only.

Tell that to Elemental Shamans

Columc

Flojo wrote: »

Tell that to Elemental Shamans

in the mian cases, same as balance druids. But spirit is the main healing spec for mana regain. And When you group with a healer for ZA/ZG you would expect them to have spirit on their items, not reslience or hit

Flojo

Columc wrote: »

in the mian cases, same as balance druids. But spirit is the main healing spec for mana regain. And When you group with a healer for ZA/ZG you would expect them to have spirit on their items, not reslience or hit

It's not healing only, that was the point I was making.

Columc

Flojo wrote: »

It's not healing only, that was the point I was making.

But what I am getting at is that all healers need spirit,

Flojo

Columc wrote: »

But what I am getting at is that all healers need spirit,

Of course.. I never denied that :P

Berns

Should make a system if the healer in the group passes, then dps can need and not until then. Would make sense :rolleyes: Same for Hit & DPS.

Flojo

Berns wrote: »

Should make a system if the healer in the group passes, then dps can need and not until then. Would make sense :rolleyes: Same for Hit & DPS.

That system is in place.. if the healer passes and an elemental shammy needs then they get the loot and vice versa! It just means that healers have to fight for neck/rings/back/trinket/weapons etc with Ele shamans and Boomkins.
Kinda sucks but that's the way it is.

Rhalliord

Flojo wrote: »

That system is in place.. if the healer passes and an elemental shammy needs then they get the loot and vice versa! It just means that healers have to fight for neck/rings/back/trinket/weapons etc with Ele shamans and Boomkins.
Kinda sucks but that's the way it is.

I think the op means that the need button is greyed out for ele shammies/boomikins/spriests until the healer passes on it?

Flojo

Rhalliord wrote: »

I think the op means that the need button is greyed out for ele shammies/boomikins/spriests until the healer passes on it?

That still doesn't help anyways. What they're saying is that healers should come before dps in relation to gear. Which isn't fair really. Bring back mp5 ffs.

Rhalliord

Flojo wrote: »

That still doesn't help anyways. What they're saying is that healers should come before dps in relation to gear. Which isn't fair really. Bring back mp5 ffs.

Well imo spirit is more important for healers than hybrid dps , since the dps can choose to spec into the spirit=hit gears. I can understand why Blizzard implemented that though so that they could use gear for both specs. This is why I think that the need roll should only be there for the spec you are in in the dungeon at that time. (on a completely different note the numbers of times ive lost on rolls for dps plate when tanks and healers roll on it is unbelieavable). Then if the tank/heals/dps pass on the loot people can roll need on it for their offspecs