Technology- is it becoming something negative?

cantdecide

Sorry if this has been asked before.

With cars becoming exponentially more technologically advanced, everyone has had some experience of extreme bills for comparatively ordinary faults and minor issues. To perform basic tasks that any grease monkey could perform is now becoming the realms of dealer only. My Dad was told his 02 E240 has to go to the main dealer if it needs to get a balljoint replaced, for example.

Everyone has their 'I can't get over how much this job has cost me' stories. To me, they seem to be more frequent and more extreme. Stories like "there was a minor splutter and now it's going to cost me €2k".

I can invisage that in years to come, you will be driving a sub €5k car, a light will come on, dealer only issue, sealed unit, such and such ECU is gone- €2k up in smoke for a non-terminal failure on a reasonably fresh car. If you tip your 4/ 5 year old family hatchback, is it likely to end up scrapped because of this sensor and that module and this unit?

I think that this is not sustainable for ordinary people. Where is this likely to end up? Will it no longer be cost effective to own a car less than five years old? Will we end up having pay motoring annual insurance in January and annual workshop insurance (eg independant warranty) in February?

krissovo

Interesting points but I think on the whole the garage costs have balanced out between old school and modern technology.

Take servicing, in the old days you needed to service at least twice a year if not 3 monthly and now its 12/24 months or 10,000 miles or more. A modern car could be driven for many years without so much as oil change and still be reliable (if you have a good one) but an old one would last 2 at most without a service before you have reliability issues.

Cookie_Monster

yes and not just cars but general electronics like tv's or fridges or any white good are not designed to be fixed anymore but replaced so companies can sell you more.

Darsad

cantdecide wrote: »

To perform basic tasks that any grease monkey could perform is now becoming the realms of dealer only. QUOTE]

The industry has certainly moved on a bit since the days of grease monkeys ! Your gripe is probably with legislators and not manufacturers

Viper_JB

I dunno I find some of the stuff easier on newer cars OBDII readers are cheap and most of the time if a light or fault has logged it will point you stright to the problem, cuts out a hell of a lot of trouble shooting. That plus now and with technology it has become so much easier to find details on how to do work on your car, from youtube video's to online communities such as boards where you can get advise from people with plenty of mechanical experience. With cars as with all things knowledge is power and knowledge has become far easier to access with all the modern advances in technology it's just really the mindset that needs to change.

gyppo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yes and not just cars but general electronics like tv's or fridges or any white good are not designed to be fixed anymore but replaced so companies can sell you more.

Yep, I used to fix TVs, videos, etc.. back in the day. Now consumer electronics are cheap crap disposable items that you bin.

cantdecide

gyppo wrote: »

Yep, I used to fix TVs, videos, etc.. back in the day. Now consumer electronics are cheap crap disposable items that you bin.

I think my point about cars is that it isn't cheap disposible crap, the problem is often quite expensive disposible crap.

If you have a €100 telly and it'll cost €100 to repair, you bin it and buy a new €500 telly. If you have a €3000 car and it'll cost €2,000 to get it to pass an NCT because of a splutter or emmisions, that's a much more bitter pill to swallow. Especially when it could cost you €10,000+ to get back to where you started after the last purchase.

How will this phenomenon affect the value of older cars? Ten years ago, a five year old hatchback was worth maybe 30% of it's new value. Is it possible that in years to come, your technologically advanced five year old hatch might be worth 10% of it's original value due to huge risk of exorbitant repairs?

gyppo

cantdecide wrote: »

I think my point about cars is that it isn't cheap disposible crap, the problem is often quite expensive disposible crap.

If you have a €100 telly and it'll cost €100 to repair, you bin it and buy a new €500 telly. If you have a €3000 car and it'll cost €2,000 to get it to pass an NCT because of a splutter or emmisions, that's a much more bitter pill to swallow. Especially when it could cost you €10,000+ to get back to where you started after the last purchase.

How will this phenomenon affect the value of older cars? Ten years ago, a five year old hatchback was worth maybe 30% of it's new value. Is it possible that in years to come, your technologically advanced five year old hatch might be worth 10% of it's original value due to huge risk of exorbitant repairs?

I agree with you - I suppose I went off at a tangent in that one time, consumer electronics were of a far higher quality (build wise), and lent itself to repair.
Similarly, though, you could apply a similar arguement to cars. Take a mid 1980s mercedes with very simple electrics compared to a 5 year old merc today. A village blacksmith could throw a stab at fixing the older merc!

BrianD3

Re: the comments about consumer electronics. They are far cheaper relative to average incomes now than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. This price reduction is not as dramatic for cars but its still there - for instance a new Renault Megane costs about the same now as a Renault 19 did in 1990. 20 years of wage inflation and an equivalent (but superior in every way) car is the same price.

Going back to the electronics, in the 60s and 70s not only were TVs very expensive they were not reliable. Most people rented. Having more than one TV was almost unheard of. There were many TV repair shops and TVs were worth fixing when they broke down, not because they were "well engineered" but because the cost of a new one was so high.

As the technology matured they got better, cheaper and much more reliable. But even if you go back 15 years to the mid nineties, TVs were small and expensive compared to today's ones. Back then, a 28 inch CRT non widescreen was a BIG television.

Progress - something that many car enthusiasts seem to have an irrational fear of.

savagecabbages

Haven't the EU decided that every new car has to be made from x% recyclable material, something like 75% if i recall correctly??

To that end theres no incentive for a manufacturer to make a car to last, they get tax breaks and funding to re-use an old car...

I think the electronics/gizmos are great in a new car, but after a few years give nothing but trouble!

cantdecide

BrianD3 wrote: »

...Progress - something that many car enthusiasts seem to have an irrational fear of...

Yes but...

gyppo wrote: »

...consumer electronics were of a far higher quality (build wise), and lent itself to repair...

The problem is that modern cars don't lend themselves to repair. This is the horror of the 'sealed unit'. This is a problem that's getting worse, IMO. I think the technology is very exciting the associated risk to the consumer is going through the roof.

gyppo

BrianD3 wrote: »

Re: the comments about consumer electronics. They are far cheaper relative to average incomes now than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. This price reduction is not as dramatic for cars but its still there - for instance a new Renault Megane costs about the same now as a Renault 19 did in 1990. 20 years of wage inflation and an equivalent (but superior in every way) car is the same price.

Going back to the electronics, in the 60s and 70s not only were TVs very expensive they were not reliable. Most people rented. Having more than one TV was almost unheard of. There were many TV repair shops and TVs were worth fixing when they broke down, not because they were "well engineered" but because the cost of a new one was so high.

As the technology matured they got better, cheaper and much more reliable. But even if you go back 15 years to the mid nineties, TVs were small and expensive compared to today's ones. Back then, a 28 inch CRT non widescreen was a BIG television.

Progress - something that many car enthusiasts seem to have an irrational fear of.

Agree with the 60's and 70's unreliability.
Also agree with the cost aspects.

The point i was trying to make regarding todays electronics is the throwaway aspect, in that equipment is made to last a finite lenght of time, with the cheapest of components. Back in the 90's a video deck was composed of steel gears, and could take a certain level of abuse. In the early 00's most gearing was soft nylon stuff that broke or stripped teeth at soon as a tape got stuck.
Equipment now is manufactured to last just a little longer than the warranty, and has become too complex to repair.

Progress is to be applauded when it comes to safety and environmental issues. However, if technology becomes too clever and complex, resulting in a car being scrapped before its time due to cost, there goes the environmental savings down the toilet.

firefly08

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. I am a bit of a techno-sceptic in general but I have to admit that modern technology is very reliable and not as inaccessible as older people tend to think. My dad was always very handy and could fix most things on a car from his generation, but his attitude to modern cars is that everything is controlled by a magic box and if it goes wrong only the deader or the factory could fix it. When I had a power/fuel consumption problem with my Astra I plugged in a laptop with code reader software, read the fault code, googled it, found out it probably meant the O2 sensor was shot, replaced the sensor, cleared the fault code memory, and hey presto, the car was fixed. My dad couldn't have done that (he could now though)...to him that technology was inaccessible but to me it's the most normal thing in the world.

As it happens my dad used to be a technician for one of the big tv rental companies back in the 60s when everyone rented. In those days they would call up and complain that the tv was gone haywire - he'd call out, turn a few knobs with a screwdriver, maybe replace a capacitor, and all would be well. Nowadays if you have a problem with an appliance like that you go to the internet and get a firmware update.

My point in all this is that the job of the technician who fiddles with the black box and makes everything right is no harder now than before - it's just different. If it's costing you more than before it's probably because the focus has shifted to an area of expertise that's not yours.

Guy:Incognito

Consumer electronics and anythign else werent necessarily much better built, they were simpler with much less to go wrong. Progress is complicated.Would you rather be at home watching 1 channel on a 15 inch black and white bowl shaped tv?

Fizman

I'll be starting a thread soon on an issue that ties in with something along the lines of what the OP is referring to.

In a nutshell, a €27 part disintegrated in my GTI engine and has cost me roughly €1k.

no1beemerfan

When my father got his '06 E90 320i and we couldn't find the dipstick (there is none.....its all monitored electronically), thats when I thought this isn't good. My uncle's nephew on the other side has started an apprentance with a mercedes garage and practically the first year is learning the computer system and how to read codes. It'll be over a year before he picks up a tool!

Turbulent Bill

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Consumer electronics and anythign else werent necessarily much better built, they were simpler with much less to go wrong. Progress is complicated.Would you rather be at home watching 1 channel on a 15 inch black and white bowl shaped tv?

+1, individual electronic component reliability has improved massively, but electronic modules have become much, much more complex - there's basically a lot more potential for failure. Coupling this with the massive markups car manufacturers charge for electronic parts (and their proprietary designs) means that failures are very costly.

Car buyers expect safety, performance and efficiency, but there's no simple way to do this...

BostonB

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Consumer electronics and anythign else werent necessarily much better built, they were simpler with much less to go wrong. Progress is complicated.Would you rather be at home watching 1 channel on a 15 inch black and white bowl shaped tv?

I don't want to be spending 1k to fix it every year either.

BostonB

I think the costs of repair are just outrageous. I don't agree that these parts should be that expensive. Most of them aren't that complex compared to something like a mobile phone or a computer, but cost a lot more. But I think a lot of the problem is many of these things are fixed in recalls for free. But not in Ireland.

x in the city

gyppo wrote: »

Yep, I used to fix TVs, videos, etc.. back in the day. Now consumer electronics are cheap crap disposable items that you bin.

Not true really, Sony and Philips and Panasonic etc do make good robust products and have spent a lot on R&D and development.

You also get a warranty if things go belly up.

There is a reason why technikia 32" LCDs can be got for the price of a few mars bars compared to a similar unit from Sony.

gyppo

x in the city wrote: »

Not true really, Sony and Philips and Panasonic etc do make good robust products and have spent a lot on R&D and development.

You also get a warranty if things go belly up.

There is a reason why technikia 32" LCDs can be got for the price of a few mars bars compared to a similar unit from Sony.

Ok, maybe I generalised a bit there - quality has improved from Sony, and some other brands. But it was crappy enough for a while though.
However, I stand by my statement that you bin them rather than repair them - unless you have serious workshop facilities that can rework smd devices, and have access to manufacturers asics, its a panel as oppossed to a component replacement - lots of €€€s

x in the city

no1beemerfan wrote: »

When my father got his '06 E90 320i and we couldn't find the dipstick (there is none.....its all monitored electronically), thats when I thought this isn't good. My uncle's nephew on the other side has started an apprentance with a mercedes garage and practically the first year is learning the computer system and how to read codes. It'll be over a year before he picks up a tool!

what bet that 'tool' will be a scanner or some CAN Bus monitoring device...

I Was VB

Have to say the reason why i havent upgraded my motor is for the reasons above. ''Nuts and bolts'' technology is a tried and tested format, especally modern Diesels have gone nuts with high pressure injectors and DPF's and Egr valves which all produce a wonderfull clean car thats cheap to fill up. But when a injector goes on one they cost €1000 for ONE injector ya have to call time on this.

Especally for a car thats under 6 years old i find it completely unacceptable for it to cost a bill that worth nearly as much as the car.

Max_Damage

Overuse in technology, in the long term, isn't the best of ideas. It's the reason I still drive a 16yr. old Ford Escort. Very little electronics, very easy to fix, and cheap parts aswell.

Del2005

gyppo wrote: »

Progress is to be applauded when it comes to safety and environmental issues. However, if technology becomes too clever and complex, resulting in a car being scrapped before its time due to cost, there goes the environmental savings down the toilet.

They don't give a fup about the environment, but they pretend to so they can tax us more.

Just look at all the scrapage schemes around the world, scrapping perfectly good 10 year old cars!! Then try and work out how many millions of miles have to be driven to recover from that if we ever can. I'm all for replacing inefficient vehicles, but once it's made it should be allowed to die naturally.

MrDerp

BostonB wrote: »

I think the costs of repair are just outrageous. I don't agree that these parts should be that expensive. Most of them aren't that complex compared to something like a mobile phone or a computer, but cost a lot more. But I think a lot of the problem is many of these things are fixed in recalls for free. But not in Ireland.

It's a fair point, but mobile phones don't consist of moving parts, or make up part of an overall system of moving parts.

If you want a piece of metal to work in harmony with other pieces of metal, line up exactly with them, not tarnish easily, and fall within certain acceptable parameters for hardness, dimensions, etc (mean and std dev). The more accurate and precise you want the lathing of parts to be, the more it costs. So what seems an unreasonable cost for a lump of metal might well be borne from a complicated and expensive manufacturing process.

Now, my problem is that they charge for this engineering yet the parts are still a big pile of shoite!

BostonB

In my experience, its not the metal parts that are breaking, its little bits of plastic or sensors or electronic glitches. For example...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/6936331/Honest-John-VAG-pays-towards-VW-Touran-ABS-control-unit-faults.html

This is why our 11yr old runabout is still running. Mechanically its simple. KISS even. Whereas newer cars we have had in the meantime, has had a catalog of faults. primarily caused by bad design, IMO.

Turbulent Bill

I Was VB wrote: »

Have to say the reason why i havent upgraded my motor is for the reasons above. ''Nuts and bolts'' technology is a tried and tested format, especally modern Diesels have gone nuts with high pressure injectors and DPF's and Egr valves which all produce a wonderfull clean car thats cheap to fill up. But when a injector goes on one they cost €1000 for ONE injector ya have to call time on this.

Especally for a car thats under 6 years old i find it completely unacceptable for it to cost a bill that worth nearly as much as the car.

The really shameful thing is that buyers of modern diesels are being used as testers for still relatively-new technology, but aren't being told about it when they buy. They can't compare the advantages of economy, power etc. with the risks of big repair bills, so modern diesels look like a one-way bet.

I'm all for improved technology (modern diesels will come good eventually), but if you're an early adoptor then you should know it.

MrDerp

MrDerp wrote: »

If you want a piece of metal to work in harmony with other pieces of metal, line up exactly with them, not tarnish easily, and fall within certain acceptable parameters for hardness, dimensions, etc (mean and std dev). The more accurate and precise you want the lathing of parts to be, the more it costs. So what seems an unreasonable cost for a lump of metal might well be borne from a complicated and expensive manufacturing process.

Modern (and not so modern) machining centres can spit out parts to incredibly tight tolerances at a low cost. As BostonB has mentioned it is not the metal parts that are failing at a huge cost it is the control units etc.

unkel

We can whinge about it, but there's only one way forward. Embrace it

My 25 year old car is full of electronics, most basic cars have done all the catching up in the last 10 years too. I do feel sorry though for all the old skool mechanics out there. The ones who have no problems changing a timing belt, but who haven't a clue what to do when the ABS light comes on.

I'm with Viper_JB here. We now have the internet with everything anyone has ever done on it, with pictures and tutorials

As for electronics, I remember my father buying our first colour TV back in '75. It was 20", had 8 channels, no remote and it cost €1,400 - the equivalent of about 2 months minimum wage. Now a basic TV of the same size with a remote, teletext, picture in picture and about 100 channels, USB connection for photos, etc. etc. costs the equivalent of 2 days minimum wage

I Was VB

unkel wrote: »

We can whinge about it, but there's only one way forward. Embrace it

My 25 year old car is full of electronics, most basic cars have done all the catching up in the last 10 years too. I do feel sorry though for all the old skool mechanics out there. The ones who have no problems changing a timing belt, but who haven't a clue what to do when the ABS light comes on.

I'm with Viper_JB here. We now have the internet with everything anyone has ever done on it, with pictures and tutorials

As for electronics, I remember my father buying our first colour TV back in '75. It was 20", had 8 channels, no remote and it cost €1,400 - the equivalent of about 2 months minimum wage. Now a basic TV of the same size with a remote, teletext, picture in picture and about 100 channels, USB connection for photos, etc. etc. costs the equivalent of 2 days minimum wage

I'm all for advances in car's but when something breaks that shouldnt within say a four year old car thats when i take issue with things.

But people with ''modern'' and ''clean'' Diesels are the guinea pigs of the car design world and it should of never been this way.

BostonB

The problem is not the fixing of it. But the cost of fixing it. Not to mention, that many of these sensors are not easily got at, and thus its often time consuming, and complicated to get at them.

IMO much of this electronics/software is designed to force people back to the dealer. it could be iPhone simple. Instead it seems its been translated to English from Japanese through Dutch.

unkel

I Was VB wrote: »

But people with ''modern'' and ''clean'' Diesels are the guinea pigs of the car design world and it should of never been this way.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you there. DMF is a failed technology, DPF don't clean themselves properly and we still have to see about the reliability of dual clutch automated manual transmissions

On the other hand, all new cars in Europe now have multiple airbags, ABS and electronic stability control, all of which are very reliable and no doubt saving thousands of lives per year

cantdecide

unkel wrote: »

...it cost €1,400 - the equivalent of about 2 months minimum wage...

So does fixing some perfectly ordinary faults in some perfectly ordinary modern cars. How is that an advancement?

cantdecide

How does this get fixed? Paying an annual warranty? Having manufacturers hand over their designs to spurious parts manufacturers and only earning a small royalty when their design fails?

Manufacturers should be rubbing their hands and licking their lips every time they release another shoddy product.

unkel

cantdecide wrote: »

Manufacturers should be rubbing their hands and licking their lips every time they release another shoddy product.

That's a bit simplistic. Cars are enormously more complex these days. Not because the manufacturers want them to be, but because we (EU) tell them they have to. As I said, ABS, ESP etc. are all mandatory now...

I Was VB

unkel wrote: »

That's a bit simplistic. Cars are enormously more complex these days. Not because the manufacturers want them to be, but because we (EU) tell them they have to. As I said, ABS, ESP etc. are all mandatory now...

I can understand ABS being a good thing but ESP is a new one on me, surely a proper driver knows thier car and its tolerences between corners honestly if i had to rely on ESP when driving i'd be a braindead muppet, but i suppose they do reduce car accidents and that cant be a bad thing.

ShadowHearth

Good thread indeed. I allways had one rule when I look for a new car - nothing past 2000+. Looks like they forgot how to make cars then.

Technology is good, but when there is too much technology then it is a step backwards. Newer s class merc has 17 computers in it... Seriously? One computer can give you trouble.. What about 17?!?!

For example skyline is 94" it is full electric( in the back too) digital dash to control temperature in a car, air con. Not many cars have it even now... It's technological masterpiece, everything working even if it's 17 years old already.

So it's possible to make electrical stuff so it would work? It's just back in the day it was profitable to make a high quality product so buyer would come back to you again, companies were working on theyr name. Now it's not profitable making something high quality as it wount need maintenance and it will not bring profit after sale.

I bought 40 inch jvc telly, it was 1.7k eu back then. Broke down 1 month after warranty ended... Only place to fix them is cork, 40 kms form my home. I found out the simptome and finder out that part will cost me 800 eu... Stopes telly in the closet. Then bought 42 inch full hd lg for 1000eu with extended 3 year warranty... just food for thought...

Max_Damage

Digital readings on the dashboard for oil levels instead of a dip stick is just taking the piss though!

unkel

I Was VB wrote: »

I can understand ABS being a good thing but ESP is a new one on me, surely a proper driver knows thier car

Surely a proper driver doesn't need power steering (anybody my age learned to drive without it). Surely a proper driver doesn't need synchromesh either

as I said, embrace the technological progress :pac:

unkel

Max_Damage wrote: »

Digital readings on the dashboard for oil levels instead of a dip stick is just taking the piss though!

Why? In the past a car needed a service every 10k miles or every year, whichever came first. Now the computer in the car tells you when to service what. The computer tells you which lightbulb is gone. The computer tells you which tyre is not inflated to the correct pressure

BostonB

unkel wrote: »

Why? In the past a car needed a service every 10k miles or every year, whichever came first. Now the computer in the car tells you when to service what. The computer tells you which lightbulb is gone. The computer tells you which tyre is not inflated to the correct pressure

Actually it fails, and tells you a light bulb is gone when it isn't and then it doesn't pass the NCT because it has a warning light. So you take it to an auto electrician, who can't find it either. It goes on and on...

BostonB

unkel wrote: »

...
On the other hand, all new cars in Europe now have multiple airbags, ABS and electronic stability control, all of which are very reliable and no doubt saving thousands of lives per year

I did post an example of ABS failures in VW earlier....

unkel

BostonB wrote: »

Actually it fails, and tells you a light bulb is gone when it isn't

On a Laguna 2 maybe or a FIAT Uno. Not on a proper car :pac:

Max_Damage

unkel wrote: »

Why? In the past a car needed a service every 10k miles or every year, whichever came first. Now the computer in the car tells you when to service what. The computer tells you which lightbulb is gone. The computer tells you which tyre is not inflated to the correct pressure

Because a dip stick is fool proof. What if some sensor goes wrong and you've no way of reading the oil level? And then the replacing of such a sensor will cost a considerable amount no doubt. It's not necessary whatsoever.

mondeo

Plugging your car in when somthing goes wrong with it seems bizzare to me. I wish cars were all mechanical like they use to be.

This would be my run about if I could find one in good condition. It would never f*ck up due to an ECU issue because it doesn't have one. 100% reliable in every way. I'm since last year keeping my eye open for one.:(

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BostonB

unkel wrote: »

On a Laguna 2 maybe or a FIAT Uno. Not on a proper car :pac:

Actually its driving a friend mad on a 06 C Class Merc.

Max_Damage

mondeo wrote: »

Plugging your car in when somthing goes wrong with it seems bizzare to me. I wish cars were all mechanical like they use to be.

This would be my run about if I could find one in good condition. It would never f*ck up due to an ECU issue because it doesn't have one. 100% reliable in every way. I'm since last year keeping my eye open for one.:(

Gotta love the Bluebird's! My father used to love these back in the day!

mondeo

Max_Damage wrote: »

Gotta love the Bluebird's! My father used to love these back in the day!

My Dad had one aswell, I learned how to drive in it and I'd do anything to get one in good condition. Were as common as pigeons in the early 90's and now as rare as hens teeth. Jesus I'd love one, in the last 5 years I've seen maybe 3 of them

Daegerty

Electronically controlled engines are not a bad thing I see, and the OBD can be handy but as long as the stuff isn't proprietary and easily accessible for amateurs

The thing I don't like is all the little gadgets and needless safety stuff because electric windows, mirrors and the like they serve no purpose but they break easy.

and Automatic transmissions, feck those yokes

dnme

IMO technology is making cars more dangerous. The front dash is now a miriad of tech gadgets, in vehicle entertainment and touch screens. Operating a touchscreen is absolutely dangerous when driving a car.