CA Brive vs Munster; ACC Quarter Final, Sat 9 April 1pm

thomond2006

Munster travel into unfamilar territory when they face Brive in the Amlin Challenge Cup Quarter Final. Having dropped down to the second tier of Europe having failed to qualify for the Heineken Cup knockout stages for the first time in 13 seasons, Munster are set to make their first appearance in the Challenge Cup.

Stade Amédée-Domenech (Capacity: 15,000)

Fabrice Estebanez, Jamie Noon, Alexis Palisson, Gerhard Vosloo

Munster meet a Brive side that are far removed from the powerhouses of French rugby. Having achieved Heineken Cup status last season with a 6th place finish in the Top14 in 08/09, it has since gone downhill. This season they have been embroiled in a relegation battle with Agen, La Rochelle and Bourgoin. After a key victory over La Rochelle last weekend their Top 14 status looks secure but it has been a very turbulent season. Financially they have wasted a lot of funds on average English players that produced no return (Andy Goode, Riki Flutey and Ben Cohen anyone?) and have become a selling club with leading stars Alexis Palisson and Gerhard Vosloo on their way to Toulon and Clermont respectively next season.

It will be intriguing to see if both sides will treat this game with full respect and name full strength sides. Munster's top spot in the Magners League is all but secure while Brive are relatively safe in the battle to stay up with a nine point cushion with 3 games to play. If Munster treat this like a Heineken Cup tie they will make very few changes from the side that beat Leinster. They can afford to focus on the Challenge Cup until the Magners League playoffs at least. Therefore it is likely Munster will bring the heavyweight names.

With Paul O'Connell injured, Mick O'Driscoll will likely deputise at second row. With James Coughlan is such good form at number 8 and unlikely to be dropped, Denis Leamy and Donnacha Ryan will compete for the number 6 shirt. Conor Murray deserves to stay at scrumhalf after a commanding display against Leinster but there is a chance that Peter Stringer's experience may be preferred for a tricky away trip. The problem position for Munster is at centre. Lifeimi Mafi and Johne Murphy failed to click as a pairing; we may see Tuitupou start but even he may not be a creative answer. Bringing in Paul Warwick at inside centre could be the answer.

Prediction: Paul O'Connell's absence will be a huge blow to Munster however breaking the Leinster hoodoo should give Munster a momentum boost that can carry them for the rest of the season. Brive are not the force they were 2/3 seasons ago and on paper should not prove a tough test. However at home French sides can play above themselves. In saying that, the money should be on Munster no matter the side they send down to central France. Munster by 10+.

tolosenc

I dunno, les Gaillardais haven't done badly at all this season at home (the game against Castres being a notable exception), and they seem to have the ability to up their game against the bigger teams (Toulouse, Racing...). They've been decent of late, too. The match against La Rochelle, the thumping of Bourgoin (not exactly indicative of anything, actually), and losing by 1 point in the Pink City.

It very much matters what side Munster send down, or else they could be in for a rude awakening.

PhatPiggins

They'll be sending their strongest team and baying for blood.

We're winning this comp and hopefully the ML as well anything less is another failure of a season.

In fairness in all the player interviews after the weekend they were fairly humble and all acknowledged a drop in standards this season. Beating Leinster was exactly the kick start needed. I think you're being conservative with your prediction Thomond.

David900

Is this being televised at all?

buck65

Think Sky are showing it.

Quint2010

Its says on the official Heineken Cup website that both Sky Sports and Eurosport are showing this. No mention of RTE. Best of luck to Munster.

Riskymove

I am heading over to this and looking forward to it

One thing to note is that its on at 2pm (French time) and forecasts are for around 25 degrees

blackdog2

Second thing to notice is that the 5th of April was yesterday, could a friendly neighbourhood mod have a look at that (provided it isn't my brainfart of course)

TheJims

phoaw! i thought Heineken matches were this week, then Amlin next week!

Suprise match to be watched this week.. and heres me offering to cover one of the lads in work this saturday! :-P

I guess i wont be available to work afterall!

Munster by 15!

Podge_irl

Brive are reasonably secure from the drop in the T14 so may well go all out for this. You'd still have to expect Munster to have far too much firepower for them though. If Brive take it seriously I certainly don't think it will be a blowout - games away in France never really are. Munster should definitely take it by a score or so though.

CouchSmart

Munster by 7. I'd like to see a few changes to the Munster team as well; Nagle to start, O'Donnell/O'Mahony to start, Warwick or maybe Dineen or another prospect at 12.

Podge_irl

CouchSmart wrote: »

Munster by 7. I'd like to see a few changes to the Munster team as well; Nagle to start, O'Donnell/O'Mahony to start, Warwick or maybe Dineen or another prospect at 12.

Wouldn't count on it. It's knock-out rugby, I'd be amazed if Munster's first choice team doesn't start.

phog

From ercrugby.com

Brive and Munster - both former Heineken Cup winners - clash in the Amlin Challenge Cup quarter-finals at Stade Municipal on Saturday with the winner guaranteed home advantage in the semi-finals later in the month - and the chance to move a step closer to the elite group of clubs to have won both the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup. Share London Wasps, Bath Rugby and Northampton Saints are the three double tournament winners with the Stade Municipal winner set to face Harlequins or London Wasps in the last four on the weekend of 28 / 29 / 30 April / 1 May.

Brive and Munster will be meeting for the first time and Fabrice Estebanez, Brive's midfield general, warns they must try and not present Ronan O'Gara with easy points with the boot.

O'Gara - who has scored in his last 80 successive Heineken Cup matches and is the only player to top 1,000 tournament points - is just one of the eight Munster players who represented Ireland in the recent RBS 6 Nations tournament the Irish province can call on for their Amlin Challenge Cup debut.

"Our discipline will have to be almost perfect because on the other side there is a world class goal kicker who will punish us" said Estebanez, who won his fourth cap as a replacement for France in last month's RBS 6 Nations clash with Wales at Stade de France.

"Although Munster did not make it to the Heineken Cup knock-out stages for the first time since the 1998 / 1999 tournament they are still one of the greatest clubs in Europe.

"It is both very interesting and rewarding to face such teams - though it was a bit of a surprise to find out we would play against them in the Amlin Challenge Cup - and their players will be all the more motivated to win the competition.

"As for the Brive players, we are super excited to take part in an Amlin Challenge Cup quarter-final against Munster and we can't wait to face them.

"It is a first for us at Brive to face Munster and it's going to be a fantastic experience for our players who will be able to measure themselves against some of the best in Europe - and even in the world - since a lot of the Munster players play at the highest international levels for Ireland and the British & Irish Lions.

"They have great calibre players like O'Gara and Paul O'Connell who have so much experience of these European encounters. It'll be tough for us but we've got everything to gain in that game.

"The key to beating them is simply to play a perfect game. We will have to be aggressive, because we will have very strong players in front of us, and we won't be able to afford mistakes.

"However, we will enter the field without any sort of complex and give it 100 % because we want to go far in this competition.

"Taking the game lightly is out of the question. We won't be spectators of our own game and, on the contrary, we will take our chances.

"It's true that the most important thing for us is to avoid the relegation zone in the Top 14 and that is a priority at the moment, but we always have the ambition to return to the Heineken Cup and winning the Amlin Challenge Cup would open that door for us.

"That would be the best reward to finish our season - what a gift for the players and the club!

"And it is certainly hugely exciting for our fans to see us face a team like Munster and the atmosphere should be amazing considering the masses of travelling Irish fans that will come over."

TheJims

Watch out for that O'Gara fella...

To be honest i dont want to see another Kick-fest. It had to be done again Leinster, but in all seriousness we need to show we can score tries at will.

Otherwise teams will see us as nothing without the fella with the golden boot

LuckyGent88

David900 wrote: »

Is this being televised at all?

As far as i know its on Sky Sports 1 at 1 with coverage starting at half 12.

While no doubt it will be a very tough match in a heated atmosphere i think Munster's experience in European competition will get us over the line out there in France. Munster by 10

Munster with a point to prove and need to create shockwaves in this competition. Munster by 11+

CouchSmart

Podge_irl wrote: »

Wouldn't count on it. It's knock-out rugby, I'd be amazed if Munster's first choice team doesn't start.

I'd very surprised too. I'd just like to see it is all. I think it's important that the young players get game time in a full strength team rather than the usual of throwing them all in head first a la Leinster vs Glasgow last year.

totallegend

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

While no doubt it will be a very tough match in a heated atmosphere i think Munster's experience in European competition will get us over the line out there in France. Munster by 10

Dunno lads, Brive won't want to be beaten in front of their home fans; they've already beaten Toulon, Stade Francais & Clermont at home this year. It all depends on what side they put out and how up for it they are; the fact they're playing Biarritz next week might help Munster's cause.

thomond2006

Munster Squad:
Felix Jones, Denis Hurley, Doug Howlett, Johne Murphy, Sam Tuitupou, Lifeimi Mafi, Keith Earls,
Paul Warwick, Ronan O'Gara,
Conor Murray, Peter Stringer,

Wian du Preez, Marcus Horan, Stephen Archer, John Hayes, Tony Buckley, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry,
Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Donnacha Ryan,
Niall Ronan, David Wallace, James Coughlan, Denis Leamy.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/8896.php

Looks like they will go full strength. Ian Nagle is not included. :mad:

I'd like to see:
du Preez, Varley, Buckley, DOC, MOD, Leamy, Wallace, Coughlan;
Murray, ROG, Earls, Warwick, Mafi, Howlett, Jones

Bench: Sherry, Horan, Archer, Ryan, Ronan, Stringer, Tuitupou, Murphy

Podge_irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ian Nagle is not included. :mad:

Shoulda gone to Leinster.

phog

TheJims wrote: »

Watch out for that O'Gara fella...

To be honest i dont want to see another Kick-fest. It had to be done again Leinster, but in all seriousness we need to show we can score tries at will.

Otherwise teams will see us as nothing without the fella with the golden boot

I'd take 3 nil results from now until the end of the season if that's what gets us trophies in the cabinet.

I see you point a small bit but this season we've scored 17 tries in the H/Cup and 39 in the M/L so it's not that we're not scroing tries.

PhatPiggins

thomond2006 wrote: »

Looks like they will go full strength. Ian Nagle is not included. :mad:

Seriously Thomond this has to stop, this is exactly why young players get completely over hyped in Ireland

You were posting similar cranky faces at the start of the season when MOD was getting picked ahead of Ryan !!!

Otacon

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Seriously Thomond this has to stop, this is exactly why young players get completely over hyped in Ireland

You were posting similar cranky faces at the start of the season when MOD was getting picked ahead of Ryan !!!

I'm with thomond on this.

Fair enough if the guy hadn't shown enough promise, but, when he has gotten gametime, he has been our most consistant lock.

Look what has happened to Conor Murray, given games [mostly due to injuries] and he has excelled. Why can't this happen with Nagle?

phog

Otacon wrote: »

I'm with thomond on this.

Fair enough if the guy hadn't shown enough promise, but, when he has gotten gametime, he has been our most consistant lock.

Look what has happened to Conor Murray, given games [mostly due to injuries] and he has excelled. Why can't this happen with Nagle?

So you'd risk making that change in what will be a season's decider? I wouldn't and I have huge regard for him, he should have got game time earlier in the season I'd even have risked him last Saturday but not now in a Q/F of the Amlin cup.

Otacon

phog wrote: »

So you'd risk making that change in what will be a season's decider? I wouldn't and I have huge regard for him, he should have got game time earlier in the season I'd even have risked him last Saturday but not now in a Q/F of the Amlin cup.

With POC now out, he should at least make the bench ahead of Ryan. But he won't. I certainly wouldn't advocate just starting him, but a bench spot is not only reasonable but IMO preferable to Ryan.

PhatPiggins

Otacon wrote: »

I'm with thomond on this.

Fair enough if the guy hadn't shown enough promise, but, when he has gotten gametime, he has been our most consistant lock.

Look what has happened to Conor Murray, given games [mostly due to injuries] and he has excelled. Why can't this happen with Nagle?

MOD has been by a distance

Trojan

Title date fixed.

TheRevolution

Otacon wrote: »

I'm with thomond on this.

Fair enough if the guy hadn't shown enough promise, but, when he has gotten gametime, he has been our most consistant lock.

Look what has happened to Conor Murray, given games [mostly due to injuries] and he has excelled. Why can't this happen with Nagle?

+1
Thomond is absolutely right as usual

GerM

I'd fall somewhere in between phog and Thomond on this one. Nagle is full of promise and needs to be given game time. With that said, this is a season defining game for Munster. Win this and they're in with a great shot of claiming a European trophy. McGahan's season will live or die by his results so he's playing it safe and I can't blame him. However, he should have given Nagle a run before this with the first choice pack. There was little to be lost by throwing him in alongside POC against Cardiff. Then we could see how he handled playing within that unit in a bit of a dog fight.

If we look at Nagle's appearances to date, he is yet to play alongside POC or DOC. He had 2 games with MOD but has mostly played with an assortment of non-HEC players. Murray is going to play against Brive because we know he's going to be able for it. We've seen that after he bedded in well with the first choice pack and outhalf. He wasn't given micky mouse appearances with half the academy getting exposure and the team being thumped, he was let play with the big boys in high profile ML games and shown to be able to blend in seamlessly.

Nagle needs to start getting game time within the environs of the HEC side. Until then he won't be put in for games like this. McGahan missed an opportunity by not giving him a run in Cardiff. If he had bitten the bullet and thrown Nagle in then he might have the faith to have him on the bench this weekend and give him 20 minutes. Nagle must be wondering if he made the right call in signing a 2 year deal. I think he should have signed a 1 year and waited to see if McGahan actually rated him and was going to give him the game time he needs.

Podge_irl

PhatPiggins wrote: »

You were posting similar cranky faces at the start of the season when MOD was getting picked ahead of Ryan !!!

Ryan's talent has been completely wasted at Munster.

This is not the game to give Nagle a shot.

Throw him in at the deep end and he flounders, then what do you do? Subbing the guy on 30minutes could kill all his momentum.

There are times to take calculated risks, but the Amlin is essentially Munster's "second chance" at a Euro cup this year, and they actually need to get some results imo.

Personally, I think he's up to the task, but it would be a risky move bringing him in. GerM put it perfectly above, he needs to play a few ML games with the 1st string players around him, then a HEC game or two.

With MOD being on fire this season, and DOC getting back into form, there's no point in gambling for the sake of one player's development.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

This is not the game to give Nagle a shot.

No, but by that logic neither are any of the other ones really.

I probably wouldn't have picked him for this game either, maybe on the bench. It's symptomatic of a general problem at Munster though. Look at what's happened to Ryan over the years. Fairly good lock with the potential to be excellent but has started 1 HEC game in his entire career. Munster picked four locks in their final HEC game and still didn't see fit to include Nagle.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, but by that logic neither are any of the other ones really.

To "blood" someone, or bring them through, I feel that ideally you want to have 12/13 of the "core" team around them in a competitive match.

Nagle should have gotten gametime when DOC wasn't playing well earlier in the season. There should have been elements of rotation amongst the 5(!!!) second row players that were available for selection throughout the competition.

There's ample opportunity for him to get solid gametime over the coming weeks in the Magner's League. Lets see if it comes into fruition.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

To "blood" someone, or bring them through, I feel that ideally you want to have 12/13 of the "core" team around them in a competitive match.

Nagle should have gotten gametime when DOC wasn't playing well earlier in the season. There should have been elements of rotation amongst the 5(!!!) second row players that were available for selection throughout the competition.

I agree, on both counts. Things are changing somewhat, but for a long time Munster had a first XV and a second XV with very little interchange between the two and they're kinda reaping what they sowed now.

Sin a bhfuil

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, but by that logic neither are any of the other ones really.

I probably wouldn't have picked him for this game either, maybe on the bench. It's symptomatic of a general problem at Munster though. Look at what's happened to Ryan over the years. Fairly good lock with the potential to be excellent but has started 1 HEC game in his entire career. Munster picked four locks in their final HEC game and still didn't see fit to include Nagle.

Quite a few (including Nagle) of the Munster academy play for Cork Con who have had a few important big games recently. Look where Garryowen are - losing their scrumhalf & hooker to play Magner's games. You need to factor in that most the Munster Academy play in the top AIL division, so its not as if they are sitting on their bums. It may also be the reason as to why most of them don't look out of place when they play in the Magners.

Ryan was injured for most of last year (he got injured during the 6Ns), which didn't help his career. Even if he wanted to move last season, he wouldn't have been fit.

Edit: Do any of you think that if Nagle was with Leinster he would have started last weekend or would be starting against leicester instead of Nathan Hines or Leo Cullen?

CouchSmart

Sin a bhfuil wrote: »

Edit: Do any of you think that if Nagle was with Leinster he would have started last weekend or would be starting against leicester instead of Nathan Hines or Leo Cullen?

Obviously a hard question to answer but if Cullen was injured - he's Leinster's POC - then there's every chance Nagle would be starting. He would also have been involved at a younger age and this could potentially be his 3rd or so season, too many ifs and buts though.

Sin a bhfuil

Sin a bhfuil wrote: »

Edit: Do any of you think that if Nagle was with Leinster he would have started last weekend or would be starting against leicester instead of Nathan Hines or Leo Cullen?

Nope, but he would have had the bench spot.

He also would've played more than 5ML games (including his 3 MotM performances) over the course of the season.

Different teams though, its not really very comparable.

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope, but he would have had the bench spot

He also would've played more than 5ML games (including his 3 MotM performances) over the course of the season.

Different teams though, its not really very comparable.

Ahead of Toner and O'Donoghue? What's your basis for that? So much hype on this board about Nagle but not even the Munster coach buys into it.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Ahead of Toner and O'Donoghue? What's your basis for that? So much hype on this board about Nagle but not even the Munster coach buys into it.

Basis for it is his performances in every game I've had a chance to see him play in. O'Donoghue has unfortunately gone backwards since arriving at Leinster. Injuries at bad times and what not.

Toner isn't what we're looking for I don't think.

Risteard

I'm into the Nagle hype as much as the next guy, but to suggest he'd be ahead of Cullen or Hines is foolish.

I would have liked Nagle to have kept getting gametime as reward for his good form and maybe he'd be in a position to play this game. Problem is that DOC, POC and MOD in particular have been going fairly well themselves, so it's a tough one. I'd have him ahead of Ryan tbh, and TOD ahead of Ronan.

PhatPiggins

Risteard wrote: »

I'm into the Nagle hype as much as the next guy, but to suggest he'd be ahead of Cullen or Hines is foolish.

I would have liked Nagle to have kept getting gametime as reward for his good form and maybe he'd be in a position to play this game. Problem is that DOC, POC and MOD in particular have been going fairly well themselves, so it's a tough one. I'd have him ahead of Ryan tbh, and TOD ahead of Ronan.

I'd have him a head of Ryan as well except if they're putting Ryan on the bench to cover second and back rows. I'd like to see the team sheet first.

Sin a bhfuil

CouchSmart wrote: »

Obviously a hard question to answer but if Cullen was injured - he's Leinster's POC - then there's every chance Nagle would be starting. He would also have been involved at a younger age and this could potentially be his 3rd or so season, too many ifs and buts though.

So more than likely Nagle wouldn't be starting or even on the bench anywhere else.

At Nagle's age, Toner had 6 starts for Leinster.
Nagle has 8 for Munster senior team (including against Australia). Up to 9 with Munster A in the B+I Cup, then another 14 games with Cork Con. That is a lot of rugby.

Ah yes, but Toner was Nagle's age in the Cheika era...

This is a silly conversation though.

Allez Munster

CouchSmart

Sin a bhfuil wrote: »

So more than likely Nagle wouldn't be starting or even on the bench anywhere else.

At Nagle's age, Toner had 6 starts for Leinster.
Nagle has 8 for Munster senior team (including against Australia). Up to 9 with Munster A in the B+I Cup, then another 14 games with Cork Con. That is a lot of rugby.

Ye, you're right, I was probably getting ahead of myself. He'd be a good bit down the pecking order at Leinster and definitely wouldn't have racked up much game-time. He's also a lot younger than I thought and at 96kg is way too light for the intensity of European action.

Also, when Toner was Nagle's age he had 19 starts and 14 appearences off the bench. Considering there's only 2 years and 4(?) months between them.

ormond lad

clermont beat la rochelle 23-13 in the first quarter final

PhatPiggins

clermont were dire though and have been in a lot of games I've seen them in. There forwards were impessive as always but there backs looked like they met for the first time before the game. I know Parra was absent but that backline are missing Schmidt's influence big time.

phog

ERC Rugby have a team named for Munster, I take it that's their call rather than being the official team

Munster 15Felix Jones 14Doug Howlett 13Sam Tuitupou 12Lifeimi Mafi 10Ronan O'Gara 9Conor Murray1 Wian du Preez 2Damien Varley 3Tony Buckley 4Donncha O'Callaghan 5Mick O'Driscoll 6Denis Leamy 7David Wallace 8James Coughlan
16Mike Sherry 17John Hayes 18Marcus Horan 19Donnacha Ryan 20Niall Ronan 21Peter Stringer 22Paul Warwick 23Johne Murphy

Edited to add, just spotted we've no winger at 11

TheJims

phog wrote: »

Edited to add, just spotted we've no winger at 11

The Bash Brothers, no Winger and No Warwick(starting), were sunk.... :P

BoarHunter

PhatPiggins wrote: »

clermont were dire though and have been in a lot of games I've seen them in. There forwards were impessive as always but there backs looked like they met for the first time before the game. I know Parra was absent but that backline are missing Schmidt's influence big time.

Amlin is clearly not their goal. they are not in the best position for the TOP14 play off and have crucial games coming on. Only Stade Francais will have some motivation in the competition as that is their last chance to earn a HCup seat next season. All the other teams are pretty much calling it the Mickey mouse Cup ... not saying i agree with that but that is the way i see it on french forums.

chooochooo

phog wrote: »

ERC Rugby have a team named for Munster, I take it that's their call rather than being the official team



Edited to add, just spotted we've no winger at 11

apparently Earls forgot about the game and missed the plane

Junior

O'Driscoll is just one of three changes coach Tony McGahan makes, from the side that started against Leinster, for the game tomorrow in the Stade Municipal (2pm local time).

Denis Leamy who replaced Donnacha Ryan in the 54th minute against Leinster retains the number 6 shirt while Sam Tuitupou, off to join an English Premiership side at the end of the season, partners his cousin Lifeimi Mafi in the centre with Johne Murphy slipping to the bench.

Munster: F Jones; D Howlett, L Mafi, S Tuitupou, K Earls; R O'Gara, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, T Buckley; D O'Callaghan, M O'Driscoll; D Leamy, D Wallace, J Coughlan. Replacements: M Sherry, M Horan, J Hayes, D Ryan, N Ronan, P Stringer, P Warwick, J Murphy.