Scottish Rugby

profitius

It looks like the Scots are not happy with the way the game is being run there. They've an accountant running the sport!

The problem is they're in debt and are running things half arsed as a result instead of fully embracing professional rugby like we did in Ireland.

Pro game failure not down to funding, says Gordon McKie

Published Date: 01 April 2011 http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Pro-game-failure-not-down.6743980.jp
By David Ferguson

----Part 1

GORDON McKie turned the spotlight firmly on the merits of professional rugby in Scotland yesterday, and insisted that he could only guarantee the future of Edinburgh and Glasgow up to 2014 unless changes resulted in success.
The SRU chief executive insisted that to suggest there was no security for the teams beyond that date would be alarmist and sensationalist, but at no time in the media briefing held at Murrayfield did McKie offer the belief that the professional teams were a central tenet of Scottish rugby's future.

What was clear in yesterday's briefing was that McKie and Scotland head coach Andy Robinson view the national team as the priority in Scottish rugby.

It is into it that the rest of the game feeds, with the failure of the professional teams to compete with the best in the Magners League consistently, and qualify for the Heineken Cup quarter- finals, against teams with double, and in some leading European cases quadruple the funding Edinburgh and Glasgow receive, root causes of Scottish rugby's wider financial problems, such as disappointing crowds and struggles to secure broadcast and sponsorship revenue.

McKie said: "Winning teams breeds interest in the game, and in supporters, and the last three months does feel as if we've fallen off a mountain because until December we felt we'd had a good year. There are so many comments that the pro teams are the poor relations of world rugby, never mind European rugby, and money is a key ingredient to success, but it is not the only one. Compared to our rivals in Wales, and England and Ireland, we don't have what they have. We don't have what Ospreys have got, a nice stadium, lucrative, indigenous broadcasting deals, millionaire benefactors who pump money in to supplement the subsidy given by the union. We don't have any of these things.

"But we (Edinburgh] beat the Ospreys last week. Just because their player budget is £6m or whatever it is, and ours is £3.6m doesn't mean we can't beat them. They (Magners League opponents] have access to broadcasters, sponsors and much bigger populations that want to go out and watch rugby on a Friday night rather than stay in and watch it on increasingly television, because BBC Alba, as great as that is, is probably getting an audience that previously came along and watched games.

"We invest in both teams, £5m gross (each], and part of that includes an allocation for player budget, and both teams get the same budget - £3.6m (strict wages alone are under £3m] - which is a lot for 36 athletes. I accept there have been difficulties. The pro teams are not development teams, but form a critical part of the pathway into Scotland, and allow us to prepare players ultimately for international rugby. But we can only afford to do what we can afford to do."

---

Part 2

He added: "It is written that it's all down to money and that's not the case. There is a balance. Do we want to keep all our top players in Scotland to make our pro teams better which is potentially to the detriment of Scotland, because the pool becomes narrower and we want as deep a pool as we can get."

The key is the financing of the professional game. Questioning of McKie's ability to improve the picture was rebuffed, with the chief executive insisting Scottish rugby was in much better health now than when we took over. He dismissed a question on why he had turned away a handful of offers from Scottish millionaire benefactors in 2006-7 because "I never saw the colour of their money". Those potential investors insist it was because he demanded too much control over their running of the teams.

Another query on why the SRU were asking more of players and teams, but seemed to lack ambition commercially, by not improving marketing or investing in the Scottish teams notably when they were competing at the top of the Magners League - as Ireland did in 1999 when Ulster and Munster started to improve - brought similar claims that it was impossible with the finance available.

While McKie is demanding improvement and giving things "a good shake", a month or two from finalising the SRU's new strategic review he is piloting with Robinson and Graham Lowe, the SRU Director of Performance Rugby, he still appears uncertain on how to achieve that in professional rugby.

"We are committed to professional rugby if Celtic rugby continues in its present shape until 2013-14, because at that time the new 'Heineken Cup Accord' comes in as does the Celtic rugby agreement, so we have three years of certainty," he said.

"But I'll say again the results are not good enough and so do they justify the investment we are making in these areas? Currently, no. We need to do things differently or better and I feel personally committed to giving it a good shake, because it's unacceptable. I don't have the authority to give any guarantees beyond three years because these decisions are made by the board. My job is to deliver the wishes of the board.

"At this point in time they serve a purpose to the Scotland team. Last season they were doing better than they are this season, as was the Scotland team. But we don't own the Celtic League. But we are in the midst of a review of performance rugby. That is to do with Scotland rugby and pro team rugby, but for me it has to go deeper.

"There has to be room for improvement here because the results are unacceptable. We have to look at the linkage between the professional teams, the sevens team, the age-grade teams, and the pathways and I don't overlook the role of the domestic game relative to what's going on with players from 17 to 20.

---

Part 3

"I don't have answers today, but what I do know is that they are all going to be subjected to some scrutiny. Scottish rugby is too small to have too many factions and the better and closer that we can work, and align all these activities, then surely it's to the betterment of Scottish rugby as a whole. We have to do things better. We have £35m a year to spend give or take, which has increased every year for the last four years, and how do we spend that to deliver our strategic objectives, which are primarily to grow the game in a thriving club environment, having more regularly winning teams - particularly the pro teams and Scotland - and be seen as a credible and well-run governing body, which is contributing to a healthier and safer Scotland."

Robinson, who joined McKie at the media briefing, was quick to insist that the professional teams would remain at the heart of any new plans. "The plan is that we want to keep Edinburgh and Glasgow going and keep moving forward," said the Scotland coach. "It's important that the players see that there is potential and I am here because I see that potential with Scotland and Edinburgh and Glasgow to do something that is special. The one thing we want is to qualify for the quarter-finals of the Heineken Cup. That is hugely important for us.

"I was buoyed by some of the performances that Edinburgh put in this year, but we need consistency. The plan moving forward, which will shake things up a bit, will be beneficial for Edinburgh and Glasgow, but it will take a couple of years in order for that to filter through.

"For us it's about being strategic and that's about the planning over the next couple of years. The loss of some players has occurred because players have improved their performance and people have wanted to sign them. That's because of the good work done in the pro teams and the players developing.

"We want these teams to be successful and will be working hard, and Gordon's working hard, for that to happen."

McKie added: "I am first and foremost a supporter of rugby and I'm disappointed with what's happened. I'm uptight about it as you can see and am determined to do something about it. I need Andy's support and I know I will get it to try and make things better, because it's unacceptable what's happened.

"I don't shirk my responsibility and if those that be decide I've failed then I'm a big boy. I can't push water upstream; I can't get a broadcaster to televise Scottish rugby.

"I believe in Andy we have a world-class coach and I'm totally supportive of what he's trying to achieve. It's my job to try and help him achieve a winning Scotland team."

CatFromHue

"We are committed to professional rugby if Celtic rugby continues in its present shape until 2013-14, because at that time the new 'Heineken Cup Accord' comes in as does the Celtic rugby agreement, so we have three years of certainty," he said.

whats the heineken cup accord?

that article seems to raise more questions than answers.

CIARAN_BOYLE

CatFromHue wrote: »

whats the heineken cup accord?

Its an agreement that the unions negotiate every few years regarding the situation in the HEC.

It sets how the money will be shared in knockout games, ticket allowance, seedings, and how many teams from each union will be invited to participate in the HEC.

As said in the article the current one runs to 2013/2014. I take the comments in the article to mean that if 2 scotish teams don't get into the HEC or if the money they recieve in the HEC is reduced in the new agreement they may reduce the number of professional rugby teams in scotland

WeeBushy

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Its an agreement that the unions negotiate every few years regarding the situation in the HEC.

It sets how the money will be shared in knockout games, ticket allowance, seedings, and how many teams from each union will be invited to participate in the HEC.

As said in the article the current one runs to 2013/2014. I take the comments in the article to mean that if 2 scotish teams don't get into the HEC or if the money they recieve in the HEC is reduced in the new agreement they may reduce the number of professional rugby teams in scotland

Is that the same agreement that caused the strife with the French when they threatened to pull out of the HEC?

durkadurka

Seem to be in big trouble up there.

Their two teams are below our fourth team in magners.

National team pretty poor scrapping out with Italy for the wooden spoon, attendances shocking, not much talent coming through. Thats a whole heap of problems to solve.

CIARAN_BOYLE

WeeBushy wrote: »

Is that the same agreement that caused the strife with the French when they threatened to pull out of the HEC?

Yeah that threat was during the renegotiation phase of the current accord I believe

profitius

By the sounds of things Scottish rugby is going from bad to worse. Amazing to think they were dominant over Ireland up to 10 years ago. Although not perfect we should appreciate what the IRFU have done.

In the comments below the article that I linked to some people were saying that Scotland might go the same way as Argentina. That means have semi amateur clubs and the internationals can play abroad.

Also McKie stopped private investors taking over a few years back because they wanted too much control according to McKie. Talk about making a balls of things.

profitius

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Yeah that threat was during the renegotiation phase of the current accord I believe

And it looks like the French might want a bigger piece of the pie next time. I don't know if things have changed to give them more power these days.

I can see European qualification from the ML changing.

durkadurka

Yeah it must be said the irfu got it pretty right, when you look at Scotland and to a lesser extent wales

CouchSmart

An entire overhaul of the SRU is needed. They've gotten it terribly wrong ever since the game turned pro. I hate the whole two big cities for the teams. It needs to be regional, would Munster or Leinster be as successful if they were Cork and Dublin, I doubt it. Those small things make a big difference.

durkadurka

If we didn't already have the provinces it would have been Dublin Limerick cork and belfast in all likelihood

thomond2006

The "Borders" were a region and that was a failure.

CouchSmart

durkadurka wrote: »

If we didn't already have the provinces it would have been Dublin Limerick cork and belfast in all likelihood

Probably but it's a big if.

thomond2006 wrote: »

The "Borders" were a region and that was a failure.

Ye I suppose. There's no easy solution but I still feel that calling them after cities alienates a lot of the population. Also, in Glasgow, they're busy supporting football.

durkadurka

I get the impression it's the preserve of the middle classes there too whereas that's changing here

razorblunt

Having the Edinburgh games at Murrayfield to barely 3000 people and then sitting them all on the same side as the cameras is another shambolic setup.
Though there's not many other stadiums they could use Hearts and Hibs would say no but there is a stadium in a place called Meadowbank same distance if not closer than Murrayfield.

and....and....and the biggest thing in Scottish rugby nowadays is a Dutch Winger!

CatFromHue

2011 scotland v ireland 63082
2011 scotland v italy 42464
2011 scotland v wales 60259
2011 scotland finished 5th with 1 win

2005 scotland v ireland 64826
2005 scotland v italy 63823
2005 scotland v wales 67274
2005 scotland finished 5th with 1 win

just from the above you can see there are people who go to games in scotland. its just not coming across in the club game.

is this to do with alot of people traveling from all over the country to international games that wouldnt / couldnt travel to either edinburgh or glasgow games?

durkadurka

Like Ireland in the 90s, we were brutal and three men and a dog watched the provinces but the five nations was always a sellout.

CatFromHue

durkadurka wrote: »

Like Ireland in the 90s, we were brutal and three men and a dog watched the provinces but the five nations was always a sellout.

the provinces meant very little back then but the club game was at an all time high due to the ail league.

some club games then would get more than edinburgh or glasgow would get now, alot more!

Having Edinburgh playing in Murrayfield is a complete and utter joke tbh. You get more atmosphere at an U11s game.

They need to get games played at a smaller stadium, and quickly. Murrayfield is the "home of Scottish Rugby" in all fairness, but I think that having been to a few Edinburgh games this season, that they've actually alienated people with their use of the stadium. Its a big cold stadium with echoes when a ball is kicked.

People make a big deal of the international team, but don't really give two ****s about the "provincial" teams (for want of a better term). There are rugby strongholds way away from the cities, as was evidenced by the U20s and Wolfhounds games being played in front of 2k+ crowds down the back arse of nowhere.

I just think they've gotten it wrong, very very wrong, but I don't think that its unfixable. I'm just not sure how.

durkadurka

CatFromHue wrote: »

the provinces meant very little back then but the club game was at an all time high due to the ail league.

some club games then would get more than edinburgh or glasgow would get now, alot more!

True, I used to go to marys and there'd be a couple of thousand there. Big mal playing for them.

CatFromHue

success breads success. would it have been imagined to have a 26,000 capacity thomond 10 years ago?

the scottish teams havent had any success.

while last year and the year before they were pretty good in the magners, they're usually out of the heineken pretty early. neither made it to the amlin either.

one good heineken or even amlin cup run could make a huge difference.

PhatPiggins

thomond2006 wrote: »

The "Borders" were a region and that was a failure.

The Border region is the heartland of Scottish rugby. It was only deemed a failure when they realised that they could only afford 2 teams and figured that basing the 2 remaining teams in cities would make financial sense.

Of course the SFU conveniently over looked the lack of a rugby fan base in Glasgow.

Digifriendly

PhatPiggins wrote: »

The Border region is the heartland of Scottish rugby. It was only deemed a failure when they realised that they could only afford 2 teams and figured that basing the 2 remaining teams in cities would make financial sense.

Of course the SFU conveniently over looked the lack of a rugby fan base in Glasgow.

Did they not make a mistake earlier on when merging Borders with Edinburgh to make it Edinburgh Reivers then reintroduce them at a later stage only to disband them a few seasons ago? Maybe my memory is wrong but I think mistake came at an earlier stage when they ignored the heartland of the game in Scotland rather than later on.

profitius

They would have been better off putting the teams in less populated areas.

Glasgow and Edinburgh are good places on paper but theres problems with those places. The main problem with those is the rugby teams become kind of lost in them. Celtic and Rangers are everything in Glasgow and a Magners League rugby team don't exactly get the pluses racing. Small fish in a small pond.

If they kept a team in the borders at least the locals would have supported it and got excited about having top class rugby on their doorstep. They could have had a Highlands team too.

Also, Glasgow and Edinburgh are 46 miles apart and in the central lowlands region of Scotland (the other regions being the Highlands and southern uplands). So you have 2 regions with no rugby and rugby in the one region that doesn't really care about it. They should have had one team in the central lowlands and called it after the region so all people felt it was their team. Another team should have been in the Highlands or Border region.

In Edinburgh they can't find a stadium to play in which doesn't help matters either in terms of attracting fans or players.

profitius

Interesting article on the search for a new sponsor for the Celtic league and their involvement in helping Scottish rugby.

Celtic League to seek more TV exposure in Scotland

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/rugby/Celtic-League-to-seek-more.6770724.jp

THE Celtic nations' decision to come under the management wing of the Six Nations and British and Irish Lions could be about to pay off with improved sponsorship coming in to replace Magners and a fresh move to get pro rugby back on BBC Scotland.
Magners signalled their intention to step down after three years as title sponsor of the league now featuring professional sides from Italy as well as Scotland, Ireland and Wales. The Italian car company Fiat was one of several potential sponsors approached by John Feehan, the chief executive of Celtic League, Six Nations and Lions, but there are a handful of firms now in the race to take over, and bidding to improve on the Magners deal.

Feehan is playing his cards close to his chest, but drawing on experience of bringing new sponsors to the Six Nations and Lions is confident of tying up the deal "in the next few weeks".

He told The Scotsman: "We're not quite at the stage with the Celtic League yet of having tons of sponsors throwing themselves at us, but there is a widening recognition of the league's growth and attraction coming through now.

"The league has stabilised in the last two years. We had about 700,000 people going through the turnstiles last year and it will be over a million for the first time this year; within Britain and Ireland we have almost 600,000 people watching on television every weekend and our website numbers have doubled. These are big numbers, and attractive numbers to business.

"Magners' decision to leave was not to do with anything we've been doing with the competition, which was good to know, but a desire to move into other markets. The popularity of the competition improving dramatically, particularly in the last two years with the play-offs and the Italian teams coming in, has made it easier to sell.

"It is still a tough market out there, but I'm very confident that within the next few weeks we'll have an announcement to make regarding a new sponsor."

The "big" numbers are welcome for Feehan at the end of his first year, Leinster and Munster attracting a record crowd of 50,645 in Dublin, Cardiff and the Ospreys welcoming 22,000 to their clash in the Welsh capital and those four clubs joined by Scarlets and Ulster in toasting regular crowds from 10,000 to over 18,000.

A capacity 26,100 is expected at the all-Irish final at Munster's Thomond Park on 28 May. It is great for the league, but what about Scotland? Feehan admits he is concerned at the struggles being faced by Edinburgh and Glasgow, but insisted: "Rugby can be a very harsh sport sometimes, but Edinburgh and Glasgow are not nearly as far away as people might think.

"We're looking to help them, whether it is with commercial expertise or strategic expertise, because Scottish rugby is very important across British and Irish rugby.

"If you look at the cycle of rugby some countries contribute a bit more than others at certain times, but it's a rollercoaster. Scotland might be closer to the bottom of that dip now, but give them five years and they could be at the top of it.

"The one great thing is the Six Nations is delivering significant revenues to all the nations year in year out, including the SRU, so, from that perspective, I'm optimistic about the Scottish sides going forward. They are working hard at it and it is going to take a little bit of time to get right."

Asked to cite examples of where his team can make a difference and help the Scots, he turned to the vexed question of broadcasting and the SRU's and Scottish Government's ongoing struggle to persuade BBC Scotland to screen professional rugby.

"We have relations now with BBC Alba, but we would certainly like to see more exposure for the game in Scotland," Feehan said.

"You don't turn these things around overnight, but I am confident we will get there with BBC Scotland. We've been in situations in the Six Nations where we didn't have good coverage but worked at it and last year we had a record television audience in Britain despite all the arguments you hear about fragmentation of audience and everything else.

"I've got no doubt that if we get our strategy right with the Magners League and the broadcasters we've got we will expand the numbers watching the game. The BBC are committed to rugby and BBC Scotland will always be interested in Scottish rugby because it interests the Scottish people, so we need to be proactive in working with them."

roycon

for the new heineken cup accord Ireland will have huge amounts of bargaining power and similarly for the celtic league talks. I can see Ireland getting four automatic places in the heineken cup. with crowd numbers increasing so much and with all the provinces doing so well both with results and financially it will be hard to go against them.

People mention the French threats to pull out of the Heineken cup. This never even came close to happening. If the French teams even missed one year of heineken cup acction teams like toulouse and perpignan would go bankrupt. They would never let that happen. They will of course look to get more teams into the heineken cup and probably will get their own way.

When the Celtic league was initiated Ireland probably ended up getting the best deal one must remember. In Ireland for over 100 years there were four provinces playing sport against each other and playing rugby against each other . this was the perfect number of provinces for the distribution of players but it also meant the pride and rivalries and fan base were already in place.
one must also remember that Wales and Scotland do not have these same provincial teams historically. In Wales large successful clubs were jammed together who had a history and rivalry of hating each other. the only other time theyd been together was under the welsh national team. whats more this all happened in one year. the new teams also had no history and so no fan base. old supporters who had supported the welsh team and the clubs didnt like supporting a new invented province which contained many of the players who theyd come to see as from a rival team. it would be like today of leinster and munster were just suddenly gelled together. when playing for Ireland all the munster fans love brian odriscoll but when hes playing for leinster they hate him. if he was playing in some sort of weird joint lunster team it wouldnt feel right and they wouldnt know how to feel and wouldnt have the same passion for going to matches.

Similarly in Scotland completely foreign concepts of teams with new teams were put together with clubs who used to be arch nemesis force to play together under the barrier of the border reivers. In scotland it was marginally better than wales at least as in wales rugby was the most popular sport whereas in Scotland rugby is played sporadically. in all parts it is seen as a middle class sport but there are also some areas where people of all social classes play rugby.

what wales should have done is to keep the same clubs of old. the ponntypridds and ebbw vales. maybe enter 6 teams of the best Welsh clubs in the magners league. they would have the traditional support bases the same rivalries and they could slowly let the old clubs outside the top 6 die out into small regional clubs and the six teams could emerge with the gaps filled by foreign players

sock puppet

roycon wrote: »

for the new heineken cup accord Ireland will have huge amounts of bargaining power and similarly for the celtic league talks. I can see Ireland getting four automatic places in the heineken cup. with crowd numbers increasing so much and with all the provinces doing so well both with results and financially it will be hard to go against them.

People mention the French threats to pull out of the Heineken cup. This never even came close to happening. If the French teams even missed one year of heineken cup acction teams like toulouse and perpignan would go bankrupt. They would never let that happen. They will of course look to get more teams into the heineken cup and probably will get their own way.

Well we'll see if Perpignan are bankrupt this time next year...

CatFromHue

sock puppet wrote: »

Well we'll see if Perpignan are bankrupt this time next year...

well they do seem to want to play in next years tournament.
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3970_6941264,00.html

Perpignan are threatening to take Heineken Cup organisers ERC to court if they are denied qualification for next year's competition in favour of Stade Français.


Harlequins and Stade Français face off in Cardiff on Friday in Amlin Challenge Cup Final with the winners set to gain a berth in next season's Heineken Cup.

Even if they lose Stade Français could still sneak into the Europe's top flight if Northampton win the Heineken Cup Final on Saturday.

According to the ERC rules, if two English clubs win both ERC tournaments then Stade Français will qualify by virtue of being the highest ranked club in the ERC European Rankings which has failed to qualify through their domestic tournament.

Perpignan are disputing this ruling however as they were ranked above their Parisian rivals until - as they claim - the ranking system was changed during the course of the season.

Indeed the ERC ranking published on May 13 has Perpignan above Stade Français.

When the ERC European Rankings are updated after the tournament finals with the Amlin Challenge Cup winner earning two ranking points and the runner-up one, Stade Français will move above Perpignan in the rankings.

As a result, USAP are left on 15 points while Stade have at least 16, to the dismay of Perpignan President Paul Goze, who is threatening legal action.

As it stands, the possible qualification scenarios are:

Heineken Cup

i) If Leinster win then Connacht will qualify for the 2011/12 Heineken Cup

ii) If Northampton Saints win then Harlequins (7th in the English Premiership) will qualify for the 2011/12 Heineken Cup

Amlin Challenge Cup

i) If Harlequins win they will qualify for the 2011/12 Heineken Cup as Amlin Challenge Cup champions

ii) If Stade Français Paris win they will qualify for the 2011/12 Heineken Cup as Amlin Challenge Cup champions

Two champions from the same country

If Northampton Saints win the Heineken Cup and Harlequins win the Amlin Challenge Cup then Harlequins will qualify for the 2011/12 Heineken Cup as Amlin champions and Stade Français Paris, the highest ranked club in the ERC European Rankings which has failed to qualify through their domestic tournament, will qualify for the 2011/12 Heineken Cup as the 24th team.

irishh_bob

profitius wrote: »

They would have been better off putting the teams in less populated areas.

Glasgow and Edinburgh are good places on paper but theres problems with those places. The main problem with those is the rugby teams become kind of lost in them. Celtic and Rangers are everything in Glasgow and a Magners League rugby team don't exactly get the pluses racing. Small fish in a small pond.

If they kept a team in the borders at least the locals would have supported it and got excited about having top class rugby on their doorstep. They could have had a Highlands team too.

Also, Glasgow and Edinburgh are 46 miles apart and in the central lowlands region of Scotland (the other regions being the Highlands and southern uplands). So you have 2 regions with no rugby and rugby in the one region that doesn't really care about it. They should have had one team in the central lowlands and called it after the region so all people felt it was their team. Another team should have been in the Highlands or Border region.

In Edinburgh they can't find a stadium to play in which doesn't help matters either in terms of attracting fans or players.

the borders ( rugby heartland in scotland ) is purely farming country and completley rural with a very small population , thier isnt anything close to a small city in the whole region , spent some time there last summer while on the way to the lake district in cumbria , very dour and unfriendly place the scottish borders , cant see too many rugby tourists being repeatedly drawn back

profitius

irishh_bob wrote: »

the borders ( rugby heartland in scotland ) is purely farming country and completley rural with a very small population , thier isnt anything close to a small city in the whole region , spent some time there last summer while on the way to the lake district in cumbria , very dour and unfriendly place the scottish borders , cant see too many rugby tourists being repeatedly drawn back

Did something happen? I'm curious or some would say nosey.

Yeah maybe it is too small. We're lucky in Ireland theres a fairly even spread of people in all the provinces with the exception of those living on the east coast compared to the west coast.

roycon

sock puppet wrote: »

Well we'll see if Perpignan are bankrupt this time next year...

so you believe perpignan are comfortable completely foregoing all the revenues and coverage they got from the matches played in the heineken cup from the group stages up to the semi final. presumably a few million euro. where else are they going to get a few million. theyll be in financial trouble if a few million just disappears off their accounts. as would any other team in europe except those funded by eccentric millionaires like toulon. hence them getting so worked up at stade francais potentially getting there place

irishh_bob

profitius wrote: »

Did something happen? I'm curious or some would say nosey.

Yeah maybe it is too small. We're lucky in Ireland theres a fairly even spread of people in all the provinces with the exception of those living on the east coast compared to the west coast.

lets just say , the borders is where our unionist neighbours in the north all originally came from and its not always a good idea to speak with a southern irish accent over there , glasgow isnt the only place in scotland where ones colour can be an issue

Digifriendly

irishh_bob wrote: »

lets just say , the borders is where our unionist neighbours in the north all originally came from and its not always a good idea to speak with a southern irish accent over there , glasgow isnt the only place in scotland where ones colour can be an issue

Have you any experience of this? I've been to the Borders and would be surprised if there was significant religious/political prejudice there.

profitius

Its been a while since there were any posts on this thread!


Its good to see Scottish rugby back on track. Edinburgh have been one of the stories of the season. Credit to Michael Bradley for getting them into the 1/4 finals for the first time for a long while. The match against Toulouse is generating much needed hype for the Scottish game also.

Crowds are also up this season by a large margin. I must go look for the figures again.

Heineken Cup: Scottish Rugby set for cash bonanza in wake of Edinburgh success

EDINBURGH have set up a revenge mission with Toulouse after securing a home quarter-final in the Heineken Cup, but will also trigger a cash windfall that could open the door to professional rugby finally taking off in Scotland.

As part of an historic shift in European rugby, Edinburgh are one of five teams from the Celtic league, now the RaboDirect PRO12, into the last eight for the first time in the tournament’s 17-year history. It is only the second occasion that England provide just one qualifier, Saracens, while France have only Toulouse and Clermont Auvergne.

The Scots defeated London Irish 34-11 at Murrayfield yesterday to top Pool 2 and clinch a home quarter-final with the same French side they faced on the previous occasion they reached the quarter-finals, in 2004. Then, they had to return to France and lost 36-10.

For coach Michael Bradley, winning the pool was enough to be joyous, but he is excited by the potential of cutting down the four-times European champions in his first season coaching in the Heineken Cup.

“I am delighted,” he said. “Toulouse at home is much better than having Toulouse away. They can be stunning, but if you do your work and are clinical you can put them under pressure and Gloucester did that and Harlequins did that.

“This is a huge step forward for Edinburgh Rugby. There is a talented group of players here and they made a commitment to each other in August, talking about a way to play and a commitment to areas that we weren’t good at in the past. It’s produced some fantastic games here.

“The boys have done what they set out to do, so far. It was great to see the size of the crowd. Week on week it’s building, with people maybe coming back or beginning to connect to provincial rugby. Glasgow have been going very well and their support is growing, so it is very important for Scottish rugby that this continues.”

Edinburgh defeated Toulouse at home in the 2003-4 season, but have since lost to them twice at home, and the French team famously won the Heineken Cup at Murrayfield in 2005.

Guy Noves was the Toulouse coach in all of those encounters and he said last night: “Edinburgh are a complete team. I watched them during the pool games and especially during the game against Racing Metro in Paris they were impressive.

“People think Edinburgh have good backs but lack power with their forwards, but I disagree. Against the Racing Metro they had good continuity and went through the phases and were very good at turnovers.

“Edinburgh really represent Scottish rugby well, which is actually in a positive time at the moment. They have got better and better the last few years.”

There is a greater confidence around Scottish rugby eight years on from that last quarter-final meeting, backed by the new SRU leadership, and it will now be enhanced financially. As well as promising a bumper crowd at Murrayfield on the weekend of 6/7/8 April, the pool success has ensured a pay-out of around £450,000 supplemented by a share in the gate receipts.

The SRU, Edinburgh and Glasgow have always agreed to divide tournament winnings between the two professional teams, which means if Glasgow reach the RaboDirect PRO12 play-offs they will also inject fresh money into the pot. But with Glasgow failing to qualify for the Amlin Challenge Cup knockout stages, after losing in Bath, if their supporters and any others across Scotland buy tickets for the quarter-final they will ensure more cash for Scottish rugby. It was this kind of success which provided the platform for Irish rugby to build from.

If Edinburgh win, they would face a semi-final in Ireland’s new Aviva Stadium against the winner of Munster v Ulster.

• Injury fears over Brown and Denton

THE Heineken Cup may have produced a magical day for Scottish rugby yesterday, but it also presented international coach Andy Robinson with fresh injury worries, as No 8 Kelly Brown suffered a suspected fractured fibula during Saracens’ win in Treviso, while David Denton missed Edinburgh’s victory with a hamstring strain. Joe Ansboro is also a major doubt for Scotland’s Six Nations opener against England in the Calcutta Cup at Murrayfield on 4 February as he struggles to recover from a back injury.

The national squad gets together at St Andrews this evening to begin preparations for the championship, with full fitness updates expected.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/club-rugby/heineken_cup_scottish_rugby_set_for_cash_bonanza_in_wake_of_edinburgh_success_1_2072219

conf101

I read today that Bradley will be coaching Scotland A for their game against the England Saxons

pickarooney

Maybe they should just assign a Catholic and a Protestant team?
:P

razorblunt

Deleted User wrote: »

Having Edinburgh playing in Murrayfield is a complete and utter joke tbh. You get more atmosphere at an U11s game.

They need to get games played at a smaller stadium, and quickly. Murrayfield is the "home of Scottish Rugby" in all fairness, but I think that having been to a few Edinburgh games this season, that they've actually alienated people with their use of the stadium. Its a big cold stadium with echoes when a ball is kicked.

People make a big deal of the international team, but don't really give two ****s about the "provincial" teams (for want of a better term). There are rugby strongholds way away from the cities, as was evidenced by the U20s and Wolfhounds games being played in front of 2k+ crowds down the back arse of nowhere.


EDIT -ah it was actually on this very thread that I mentioned it!


I just think they've gotten it wrong, very very wrong, but I don't think that its unfixable. I'm just not sure how.

Ditto, there's a pretty decent sized stadium sitting unused in Meadowbank and I've said this before on here. Hearts is literally across the road so they could use that too.
Mind you latest rumours doing the rounds are that they are looking into the Horse Showgrounds out by the airport to mimic the Leinster setup to add temp seating when needed. Way too far out though, not many buses go that way.

[Jackass]

Glasgow are leaving Firhill to an excellent set-up in Scotstoun.

It's an athletics stadium, with 5,000 all seater capacity, but with lots of space for expansion if / hopefully when needed.

It will cut out the empty stands at Firhill, and be sold out for most games, meaning a much better atmosphere, but it also has state of the art training facilities (being an athletics ground) that they will base their training camp around also.

All in all, a promising move. They move in next season.

WeeBushy

I'm not a fan of stadiums that have running tracks around the pitch. I think it dilutes the atmosphere by having the crowd too far away from the pitch. Other than that though it looks like a great set up and a move in the right direction for Glasgow.

[Jackass]

Meadow bank would be a very good move for Edinburgh, but presumably the reason they're staying in HQ is their inability to pay rent. Their crowd numbers, although improving, are still attrocious.

Meadowbank is similar to Scotston stadium, in terms of it being an athletics stadium, but unlike Scotston, it's an absolute kip of a place, but could well be the answer to Edinburgh's problems. It's a good size as a 16,000 capacity stadium, with a big 7,500 capacity stand, which would be good size to open just this for Edinburgh games, but would still have the problems of Murrayfield, with no atmosphere and three quaters of the pitch side being empty and like a grave yard.

This seems to be the only suitable stadium in Edinburgh though, if they were to move.

[Jackass]

WeeBushy wrote: »

I'm not a fan of stadiums that have running tracks around the pitch. I think it dilutes the atmosphere by having the crowd too far away from the pitch. Other than that though it looks like a great set up and a move in the right direction for Glasgow.

Yeah, I agree, but it's pretty much the best they can do. It'll be a good long term home for them though, and hopefully they can develop it over the years. It will be interesting to see what they do with the derby Edinburgh game, as 5,000 is quite small for that fixture.

profitius

WeeBushy wrote: »

I'm not a fan of stadiums that have running tracks around the pitch. I think it dilutes the atmosphere by having the crowd too far away from the pitch. Other than that though it looks like a great set up and a move in the right direction for Glasgow.

Running tracks does indeed dilute the atmosphere in stadiums. I saw one once where there was a track around a pitch but they designed it very cleverly. They put the track and pitch a few meters lower than the stands and this allowed them to roll out extra seating areas over the track. So the fans on that seating area were closer to the pitch and sitting over the track.

its_phil

WeeBushy wrote: »

I'm not a fan of stadiums that have running tracks around the pitch. I think it dilutes the atmosphere by having the crowd too far away from the pitch. Other than that though it looks like a great set up and a move in the right direction for Glasgow.

They could do what Edinburgh did and put standing spectators beside the pitch.

Got to say though, I think Glasgow have been the better team this year. Really turned Firhill into a fortress and performing extremely well in the Rabo. Did okay in the Heineken too. Edinburgh need to start turning their Heineken form into Rabo form.

Great to see Scottish rugby on the up and the crowds starting to come

Digifriendly

Welsh rugby is struggling with crowds too - Cardiff Blues had less than 10,000 for their HC game last weekend in a stadium that holds about 3x that number and this compared to Bath's 11,000 for their 'dead' tie vs Glasgow. Ospreys also had a poor crowd for their crucuial home clash with Saracens earlier in the competition. Rarely are Welsh grounds full except maybe for odd derby. Ospreys vs Blues at New Year had a much smaller crowd than corresponding fixture the season before.

its_phil

profitius wrote: »

Running tracks does indeed dilute the atmosphere in stadiums. I saw one once where there was a track around a pitch but they designed it very cleverly. They put the track and pitch a few meters lower than the stands and this allowed them to roll out extra seating areas over the track. So the fans on that seating area were closer to the pitch and sitting over the track.

Stade de France right?

profitius

profitius wrote: »

Running tracks does indeed dilute the atmosphere in stadiums. I saw one once where there was a track around a pitch but they designed it very cleverly. They put the track and pitch a few meters lower than the stands and this allowed them to roll out extra seating areas over the track. So the fans on that seating area were closer to the pitch and sitting over the track.

its_phil wrote: »

Stade de France right?

I'm not sure where I saw it. It was a few years back.

One thing I forgot to mention that the extra seating area they rolled out was rolled out onto the track from under the stand.

cp

yup, pretty sure that's the Stade de France

profitius

I found this on another forum. Its the Edinburgh attendance numbers.

Rabodirect 2010/2011 2011/2012
Munster 3,419 Cardiff 2,431
Leinster 2,923 Connacht 2,364
Ulster 3,195 Munster 3,467
Treviso 2,422 Leinster 3,580
Connacht 1,707 Aironi 4,403
Glasgow 9,292 Glasgow 13,240
Scarlets 1,673 Ulster 3,792
Total 24,631 Total 33,277
Average 3,519 Average 4,754
Increase 1,235 35%

HEC
Cardiff 2,379 Racing Metro 5,809
Northampton 4,905 Cardiff Blues 4,384
Castres L. Irish 10,892
Total 7,284 Total 21,085
Average 3,642 Average 7,028
Increase 3,386 93%

Overall Total 31,915 54,362
Average 3,546 5,436
Increase 1,890 53%

CiaranMT

No figure for the Catres game in '10/11?

profitius

Edinburgh have sold over 20,000 tickets for their 1/4 final against Toulouse. Its a Scottish record and theres still a month to go so it could well be over 30,000 tickets.

[Jackass]

Will be weird seeing Edinburgh play in a half full stadium...