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Which affordable transport projects should go ahead in 2011-2014?

  • 05-04-2011 11:55am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    With Leo Varadkar indicating that all PPP projects will be cancelled, what does that leave for transport capital spending in 2011-2014? The transport minister's briefing states that the capital allowance is approx 4.8bn for the period but that 1.7 is already committed. Another 1bn is required for road maintenance & 400mil for railway safety.

    That leaves 1.7bn for additional transport projects in the coming 4 years.

    If transport spending continues as it has in the past with 2:1 ratio for roads then I'd guess that 1.1bn will go on road improvements like rural bypasses leaving 600m for rail projects like resignalling, electrification & track improvements to remove speed restrictions.

    Not very inspiring.

    On the plus side, RTPI and integrated ticketing are nearly live, KRP and city centre DART resignalling must be reaching completion.

    Cheap stuff they could do would be
    * extend the cycle hire scheme in Dublin and other cities
    * improved cycle lanes
    * cycle greenways
    * measures to promote walking
    * outsource city bus services outside Dublin.
    * promote car clubs through designated public and private parking
    * keep the cycle to work scheme going
    * raw rtpi data for rail and bus made publicly accessible so that the independent analysis of punctuality and reliability can be carried out.
    * smart cards for social welfare passes to reduce fraudulent use

    any other ideas?


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 OurLadyofKnock


    dynamick wrote: »

    any other ideas?


    Emigrate?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    dynamick wrote: »
    If transport spending continues as it has in the past with 2:1 ratio for roads then I'd guess that 1.1bn will go on road improvements like rural bypasses leaving 600m for rail projects like resignalling, electrification & track improvements to remove speed restrictions.

    But that ratio shouldn't continue. It was always assumed that the first half of Transport21 scheme would be focused on roads and the second half on public transport, primarily rail.

    Now that the interurban motorway network has now been completed, I would expect that investment should flip 1:2 in favour of public transport. Perhaps even more like 1:4. We really don't need that much more road development. A few bits here and there like Newlands Cross, etc. but certainly nothing crazy like DOOR.

    I assume all the money will go to Metro North if it goes ahead. However I agree we should also do all the small/cheap projects you mentioned.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    bk wrote: »
    certainly nothing crazy like DOOR.
    DOOR will be considered in segments not as one project according to Leos DoT briefing. If I was ever widening our very first motorway from 30 years agao , (the Naas Bypass to the M9) I would perhaps consider re engineering a junction to start it off from .


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    DOOR will be considered in segments not as one project according to Leos DoT briefing. If I was ever widening our very first motorway from 30 years agao , (the Naas Bypass to the M9) I would perhaps consider re engineering a junction to start it off from .

    But do we really need it?

    The M50 seems to be flowing well now. Once Newlands X is done another bottleneck will be removed and you will be able to drive Cork to Belfast without hitting a single traffic light. I just don't really see the need for it, specially when we have much more pressing commuter projects in Dublin.

    But I'm open to being convinced otherwise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    We do not need the DOOR atm, but we should certainly plan for it and reserve a place for it during planning decisions.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    bk wrote: »
    Now that the interurban motorway network has now been completed, I would expect that investment should flip 1:2 in favour of public transport. Perhaps even more like 1:4. We really don't need that much more road development. A few bits here and there like Newlands Cross, etc. but certainly nothing crazy like DOOR.
    I think road projects generate more votes than rail projects. They bear fruit in a couple of years whereas a rail project often spans governments. People don't ring Joe Duffy about public transport infrastructure, they ring about potholes and salt grit.
    I assume all the money will go to Metro North if it goes ahead. However I agree we should also do all the small/cheap projects you mentioned.
    Why would they put money into enabling metro north if they doubt they'll be able to pay for the main construction? There are no votes in enabling works - quite the opposite.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 OurLadyofKnock


    I can't decide it this is the most pathetic or soul destroying thread in the history of boards.

    No DU/MN - but hey look on the bright side. We can have car pooling instead!

    Be like a holiday with our chums going to work each day. Perhaps we can make music tapes to sing along on our way to the job!

    Who needs public transport! Who Needs metros and DARTS!!! We have car pooling. We will be just like Americans then.

    Except we won't have the guns to blow our brains out when it dawns on us how ****ty and pointless our existance is.

    Stick a fork in Ireland. We are done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    I can't decide it this is the most pathetic or soul destroying thread in the history of boards.

    No DU/MN - but hey look on the bright side. We can have car pooling instead!

    Be like a holiday with our chums going to work each day. Perhaps we can make music tapes to sing along on our way to the job!

    Who needs public transport! Who Needs metros and DARTS!!! We have car pooling. We will be just like Americans then.

    Except we won't have the guns to blow our brains out when it dawns on us how ****ty and pointless our existance is.

    Stick a fork in Ireland. We are done.

    It could get even worse than pathetic and soul destroying. It could become a boards infrastructure forum that discusses cycling initiatives, Greenways, carpooling and how to screw social welfare pass holders to the wall so their buddies don't benefit. Now thats real infrastructure talk alright.:D

    Spend time talking about where and why it all went wrong. Generate a reaction. Talking about stuff that is minor while accepting that we have been done over by successive Governments is futile. At the bare minimum we owe it to the next generation to educate them in how the state has consistently failed the country in providing "state of the art public transport." Thats what the last Government always called it, but where is it?

    The internet is the encyclopedia of the future.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 OurLadyofKnock


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    The internet is the encyclopedia of the future.


    I'm stealing that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,985 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    A balance of "cheap enough but massively useful" would go to Cork SRRs, Dunkettle and the N28, as well as the Galway Bypass and the Newlands PPP.

    I guess in reality the M18 could wait so long as the Claregalway relief road gets done.

    The M20 should also be bumped up a bit.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    I'm stealing that.

    Just like "my talent is my pension". Take the words. Use them. They are free because they can inspire and inspiration is the greatest payback any of us can ask for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    It was my sneaking suspicion Fine Gael would start "reviewing" everything from hospitals, to metros to prisons once they were voted in. This is no great surprise. I would dearly love to believe it's so that we can make the most effective use of our limited resources, rather than just being an exercise in having a report to hide behind so they don't have to directly take responsibility for cancelling projects that weren't happening anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    The PPP model should be scrapped for road projects. The M3 has shown a toll road may not pay for itself and shadow tolling would probably cost the tax payer more. PPPs can be dangerous because they are off the balance sheet but can affect finances in the future so it is not wise to take too many on, especially with the current situation we find ourselves in. The current road projects planned as PPPs should be split into individual projects and funded from the capital budget. The new Public Works Contracts would mean most likely stay within budget.

    The M11 gap and Newlands Cross would obviously work as stand alone projects, Newlands prioritised and M11 long fingered. The M17/18 could be split into two projects, north of M6 and south of M6, with the latter being the priority. If we have €1.7bn in the kitty we could do Newlands X and finish the M18 and still have plenty left over for a few bypasses and bits of rail projects like resignalling, electrification & track improvements.

    MN and DU should continue as PPPs because the scale of the projects and incorporating operation, maintenance and rolling stock purchase into the contract makes sense. People expect to pay for each rail journey whereas people generally dont like tolls so rail are more suited to PPP concession contracts which can pay for themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭ veryangryman


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Just like "my talent is my pension". Take the words. Use them. They are free because they can inspire and inspiration is the greatest payback any of us can ask for.

    Keep it above the waist doc....


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    IE, RPA and NRA should be keeping as much activity going as possible which retains core engineering and planning teams but keeping the involvement of external consultants and resources to a minimum. Safety first - bridges must stay up, coast erosion defence kept up, 5-10mph speed restrictions removed, AHB and manual LCs converted to CCTV or closed and fencing against animal intrusions maintained. After that - DASH2, KRP2, Maynooth line LCs, Limerick resignal and Oranmore station would be the ones that come to mind, maybe a bit of work between Athlone-Portarlington too if possible if freight shipments rise further.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    It could get even worse than pathetic and soul destroying. It could become a boards infrastructure forum that discusses cycling initiatives, Greenways, carpooling and how to screw social welfare pass holders to the wall so their buddies don't benefit. Now thats real infrastructure talk alright.:D

    Commuter trips in the Greater Dublin Area:
    • In the city centre (within the canals) 88% of trips under 10km, including 72% under 5km.
    • In the inner suburban areas (within the M50, but outside the canals) 81.2% of journeys are under 10km, including 50% under 5km.
    • Outer suburban areas (outside the M50) has 58.8% of journeys under 10km, including 33.9% under 5km.
    • Large hinterland towns have 40.5% of trips under 10km, including 27.2% under 5km.
    • Rural Hinterland has 51.3% under 10km, including 42.9% under 5km.

    While cycling isn't suitable for everybody, there's loads of scope to switch a large amount of the type of journeys listed above to cycling.

    There's also a small amount of people who will / can / do cycle further than 10km and there's ways around other people's problems from electric-assisted bicycles to cargo bicycles to panniers (bags which clip onto bicycles).

    As I've said on another thread, cycling is a great way to increase the catchment area of railway stations and tram stops without having car parks or increasing the size of current car parks or where there's no room for expanding car parks. A government agency in the Netherlands claims: "Of all train travellers, no fewer than 40% use the bicycle to get between home and the station." Deutsche Bahn has its own bike rental system mainly to allow train passengers to complete their journeys.

    With only 500 bicycles in a fairly small area, Dublin Bikes records a few thousand trips a day -- an average of 5,000 trips on weekdays in the summer and 4,000 in the winter. It recently nearly generated nearly 6,000 trips in one day.

    There's loads of governments around the world investing in cycling as a cost effective, health and congestion reducing form of transport.

    Not very pathetic or funny if you really look at it in a factual, measured way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭ Judgement Day


    There's lots of roads that still need building surely - dual carriageways to Clifden and Dingle come to mind, not to mention a badly needed motorway to Bantry from Cork? A new direct link from Limerick to the National Railway Museum at Moyasta......:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    Dublin Bikes is doing 5,000 trips a day. Luas C1 to docklands was intended to carry 8,000 trips per day at a cost of 100m. So I think it's fair to make comparisons.

    Also 'Car Clubs' or 'Car Sharing' is not the same as Car Pooling.

    Car Sharing is a form of automated short term car hire. I lived in Switzerland for a while where 400,000 people are members of car clubs, allowing them to have access to vehicles without owning them.

    In Ireland, 'Car sharing' is sometimes confused with 'Car Pooling' which is giving people lifts in your car and sharing the fuel costs.

    --edit
    Luas BXD might be worth doing now out of the capital budget. It had a very high BCR and the Railway Order application went in 9 months ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    Keep it above the waist doc....

    You may have misinterpreted what I said.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    monument wrote: »
    Commuter trips in the Greater Dublin Area:
    • In the city centre (within the canals) 88% of trips under 10km, including 72% under 5km.
    • In the inner suburban areas (within the M50, but outside the canals) 81.2% of journeys are under 10km, including 50% under 5km.
    • Outer suburban areas (outside the M50) has 58.8% of journeys under 10km, including 33.9% under 5km.
    • Large hinterland towns have 40.5% of trips under 10km, including 27.2% under 5km.
    • Rural Hinterland has 51.3% under 10km, including 42.9% under 5km.

    While cycling isn't suitable for everybody, there's loads of scope to switch a large amount of the type of journeys listed above to cycling.

    There's also a small amount of people who will / can / do cycle further than 10km and there's ways around other people's problems from electric-assisted bicycles to cargo bicycles to panniers (bags which clip onto bicycles).

    As I've said on another thread, cycling is a great way to increase the catchment area of railway stations and tram stops without having car parks or increasing the size of current car parks or where there's no room for expanding car parks. A government agency in the Netherlands claims: "Of all train travellers, no fewer than 40% use the bicycle to get between home and the station." Deutsche Bahn has its own bike rental system mainly to allow train passengers to complete their journeys.

    With only 500 bicycles in a fairly small area, Dublin Bikes records a few thousand trips a day -- an average of 5,000 trips on weekdays in the summer and 4,000 in the winter. It recently nearly generated nearly 6,000 trips in one day.

    There's loads of governments around the world investing in cycling as a cost effective, health and congestion reducing form of transport.

    Not very pathetic or funny if you really look at it in a factual, measured way.

    I take all this cycling stuff for granted. Its so cheap to do that it should have been done years ago with no fuss. You can be factual and measured all you like, but as a nation that has come from having billions available for public transport to virtually nothing, (while achieving little) I find it pathetic and funny that the forum has reached a level whereby the discussion of "infrastructure" has been reduced to cycling projects. I expected more anger re MN and DU.:rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    We spent over 10 billion on roads since Transport 21 was launched. Some of them like the M9 and M3 are ludicrously over-capacity and will cost the country many millions in shadow tolling penalties for decades to come. The Motorway network will cost at least 400m per year just to maintain.

    None of the large public transport project will now be started in the foreseeable future. We have a segment of WRC that loses €100 per trip. Well tough luck and move on.

    Dublin has one of the lowest modal shares for cycling of any comparable city in Europe.

    There are plenty of threads for expressing your angst. This is one thread where people can suggest what can be done with reduced resources.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    Given the amount of money already spent on getting the M17/M18 to tender EIB funding approved it should be built at some stage. Newlands X/M11 PPP will be built cause of importance and dangerous section of road. That would be it for roads.

    5-10 years down the line the M20 and Galway city bypass. Also with luck some minor realignments. Some will be taking place this year on the N17 at 3 seperate bends.

    Invest in more greenways and provide more adequate cycling lanes in the major cities and towns.

    Postpone MN and plan for the construction of DU instead in a few years time. Scrap the rest of the WRC planned.

    Re dynamick: The M9 and M3 were considered by many users in the Roads forum a waste of money at the time. The M9 less so due to the awful road in place and it needed improvment whether a motorway was needed was in question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    I forgot this yoke:
    http://www.blueline.ie/

    (A southside BRT from St Vincent's Hospital to Sandyford Via UCD. A bus disguised as a tram with some segregated running along the Eastern bypass route.)


    So road projects:
    Newlands X
    Gort-Tuam Motorway 57km (isn't this already contracted?)

    followed in a few years by
    M20 Limerick-Cork two phases 80Km
    Galway bypass
    Arklow-Rathnew 16.5km


    Any other bypasses due?

    Rail projects:
    KRP2
    DASH2
    Cork-Dublin line improvements
    Maynooth LCs (& electrification?)
    Luas BXD

    I wonder is Lucan Luas a possibility given the minister's geography?

    Also the electric car scheme is on hold while Pat Rabbitte decides whether to authorise the grants. Apparently 400 Nissan Leafs have been ordered, subject to grant approval.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I take all this cycling stuff for granted. Its so cheap to do that it should have been done years ago with no fuss. You can be factual and measured all you like, but as a nation that has come from having billions available for public transport to virtually nothing, (while achieving little) I find it pathetic and funny that the forum has reached a level whereby the discussion of "infrastructure" has been reduced to cycling projects. I expected more anger re MN and DU.:rolleyes:

    By taking anything for granted means it'll never be done.

    And yes, cycling infrastructure, that's the main way cities have increased their modal share of cycling -- look at the Netherlands and Denmark etc. Not billions, but you do need millions.

    Re Metro North -- the energy used for anger is better used constructively (I'll let you know what I mean when I can).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,375 DoesNotCompute


    dynamick wrote: »
    Which affordable transport projects should go ahead in 2011-2014?

    1. Dublin Metro
    2. Integrate the Irish Rail Smart Card with Dublin Bus and Luas Ones
    3. Dart Underground
    4. Extend Dart Underground/Dublin Metro/whateva out to Maynooth


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭ Judgement Day


    1. Dublin Metro
    2. Integrate the Irish Rail Smart Card with Dublin Bus and Luas Ones
    3. Dart Underground
    4. Extend Dart Underground/Dublin Metro/whateva out to Maynooth

    Affordable - the country is broke. :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    dynamick wrote: »
    Also the electric car scheme is on hold while Pat Rabbitte decides whether to authorise the grants. Apparently 400 Nissan Leafs have been ordered, subject to grant approval.
    Nooooooo! No subsidies to the SIMI for cars that run 2-4 hours a day and for electricians to wander around looking for places to install charging points. Extending electrification of Dublin rail should take priority for any funds for electric transport. [Edit - FG have said they favour Maynooth line electrification which is in Varadkar's vicinity too]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭ dynamick


    Maybe you're right and electrifying rail is a better use of money (although the electric car grants come out of the Energy budget rather than the transport budget). Many countries are incentivising EVs including Canada
    http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/electric/index.shtml

    The idea behind the government subsiding the first 6,000 cars and getting the ESB to install 1500 charging points is to establish a market.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    The difference is though that Canada and the US have automotive industries which will to some extent benefit from the retention of the idea that families are entitled to 2,3 or 4 cars and it's all okay as long as they're electric. The addition of charging points will also require electrical investment over a much wider area, whereas electrification of rail occurs over a defined corridor and the vehicles are guaranteed to operate on a longer average service day than a private vehicle unless it's a delivery van or taxi.

    I'm not saying electric cars are bad (although plug-in hybrid is probably the better call until full infrastructure build out) but I am suspicious of any car grant which benefits car dealers and at least I would deprioritise them behind electric mass transit, electric taxis and electric local delivery vehicles which all have clearly definable geographic use boundaries.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    dynamick wrote: »
    Any other bypasses due?

    Funding approved this year:

    N22 Tralee Bypass
    N5 Longford Bypass
    N3 Belturbet Bypass

    N2 Slane Bypass should get built sometime over the next few years possibly next year depending on tender costs.


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