Potential NI sub-forum

nesf

Right, we're considering giving ye a NI subforum (not decided yet!). What we're interested in is ideas and feedback about this idea. Ideas for rules, whether a separate mod team would be a good idea and so on.

Anyone having a discussion about NI politics in this thread will have a long ban from this forum, let's keep this on-topic please.

P. Breathnach

I'm not against the idea, but I don't think it would solve the problems we have with almost every thread on NI politics.

Einhard

For what it's worth, I'd be against the idea. What's stopping people posting on Northern Ireland in the main forum? It might seem a good idea in theory, but one just has to look at the American and European sub-fora to see that fora dedicated to narrow interests receive much less traffic than the main forum. Dissuccion and debate tend to be far more restricted and ossified as a result. The last post in the American fourm was 4 days ago...

Much better to leave things as they are IMO.

deise go deo

I think its a good idea over all, It would allow for a new charter catered for specifically for the pitfalls of NI Threads, it would also allow for more in depth discussion of the smaller NI issues that would get drowned out in the main forum.

I certainly think it's worth a go. Specific rules would have to be in place to deal with people trying to drag the highlights of the troubles into every thread, Perhaps a 1990 cut of date unless it is directly relevant to the thread topic?

OhNoYouDidn't

I don't think its a good idea.

1: Putting the threads elsewhere wont stop the polarisation of views

2: Are we going to have regional political sub forums for all of Ireland?

3: No-one looks in the sub forums. If anything they should be integrated back into the main one.

Pride Fighter

On another website the NI politics forum is a troll festival. I'd be against it.

oppenheimer1

Why has this taken so long? Give the childish politics of the north their own playground and let the adults not be distracted by their clutter.

southsiderosie

I think there are too many sub-forums as it is, and these bleed thread activity from the main page. What is needed is a general crackdown on soapboxing and muppetry.

I also cannot imagine what poor souls would end up moderating this forum, as it would be a bigger **** show than modding AH.

If the general consensus is that this should happen, however, I would suggest that the forum first implements stricter rules for all threads and then re-evaluate after, say, three months.

gandalf

Already expressed my views on this before. It is an extremely bad idea and it stinks of trying to shift the problem that exists with NI related threads into the background.

Eliot Rosewater

Einhard wrote: »

...one just has to look at the American and European sub-fora to see that fora dedicated to narrow interests receive much less traffic than the main forum. Dissuccion and debate tend to be far more restricted and ossified as a result. The last post in the American fourm was 4 days ago...

I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think a small number of postings in a sub-forum necessarily makes it bad. The US Politics forum is pretty quiet, but I personally find it the most interesting of all the Boards politics forums.

southsiderosie wrote: »

If the general consensus is that this should happen, however, I would suggest that the forum first implements stricter rules for all threads and then re-evaluate after, say, three months.

I disagree with your timing argument. If we have a NI forum before the crackdown starts it gives a lot of posters a place to go. If there is no NI forum before the crackdown they will have no place to go, and that will inevitably make the clean-up harder.

aquascrotum

Bad idea IMO. Every thread will degenerate into the same pointless bickering that NI related threads on the main Politics forum become. Moderating nightmare in the offing.

Brussels Sprout

Good idea. Might I suggest the Sub-Forum undertitle:

"The forum that time forgot"

later12

gandalf wrote: »

it stinks of trying to shift the problem that exists with NI related threads into the background.

I agree with this but i think that to remove those troublesome threads into the background is an excellent idea. The porous seeping of republican rhetoric into so many NI-irrelevant threads at present is an extremely annoying derailment.

My God that thread would be a nightmare for the mods though. Think AH x Politics x Football

deise go deo

I would say that it should lead to a better standard of posting in those threads, if the correct rules were in place, and the mod team implemented them correctly then I think the train werck threads that NI threads usually turn into could be prevented,

You would have one or two large threads with posters at loggerheads, but you would also have other smaller threads on issues that would not generate such friction.

After a while, if the moderation was Fair but strict, I would think the trolling and handbag fights could be prevented. Of course this would apply to the main forum as well, but in a sub forum, a mod would be more able to get to know the posters and the trouble makers, and how to septate out the two.

sollar

I prefer big forums like AH etc because there is high traffic and you may come across a thread that you wouldn't go looking for but are still interested in getting involved in.

PatsytheNazi

Pride Fighter wrote: »

On another website the NI politics forum is a troll festival. I'd be against it.

Exactly. I have seen this happen on Politics.ie. A topic on the six counties as part of the main forum you get much more people posting with a genuine opinion however I may disagreee with them. However what I have seen on Politics.ie, a sub NI forum quickly becomes taken over by individuals who never post on the rest of the discussions on economics, media etc but 'specialise' in secterian baiting and attacking, wrecking every decent discussion.

Penfailed

I can see positives and negatives arising out of a sub-forum. Overall, I'd be in favour of it.

Permabear

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Denerick

NI is a relatively minority interest, it is also handy for politics regulars for it to be tucked away somewhere out of site. There tends to be a familiar crew of posters in the American politics forum, I don't see why there isn't an NI subforum. There is clearly a demand for it.

I think that bottleofsmoke should moderate it. I mightn't share his politics but he seems to be a rather fair minded poster. I also think that I should be mod. Just think of all the Republican's you'd piss off if you did that.

Permabear

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K-9

That's true Permabear, threads on SF's economic policies or lack thereof for example. I suppose if it's to do with the Irish economy well it probably is more for here or the IE sub forum.

If it has it's own sub forum it might lessen the amount of disruptive posters, out of sight, out of mind and maybe more chance of discussing day to day politics.

Permabear

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deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

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It would give the option of if a thread such as thoes were becoming troublesome, they sould be shuttled off to the NI subform.

I think that the NI subforum would have to have much stricter enforcment of rules than the Main politics forum simply to ensure that threads are kept on track.

If I was to suggest a mod for it, I would say Dlofnep. He certainly has an interest in the area, and is well informed on the issues. There would also need to be a second mod who is more sympathetic to the other side. Power sharing is the way forward;)

twinQuins

I would agree with gandalf to a certain extent - there is a problem with the threads in the main forum but simply shunting them off to a sub-forum won't solve the issue merely... well move it.

If there is to be a sub-forum it'll have to be extremely tightly moderated. I've always been of the opinion that a lack of strong-handed moderation has let the Irish Economics forum turn into the bitchfest about the Public Service and government in general, that it is.

Certainly, I think it's a large enough topic of interest (this is an Irish site, after all) to warrant a sub-forum. While it would be nice to leave the threads here I can't help but think the moderation time taken up by them would be best put to use elsewhere.
I know I seldom post to Politics but I've always enjoyed reading it though not so much the NI threads.

deise go deo wrote: »

If I was to suggest a mod for it, I would say Dlofnep. He certainly has an interest in the area, and is well informed on the issues. There would also need to be a second mod who is more sympathetic to the other side. Power sharing is the way forward;)

Oh no. This has been brought up many times before on the Christianity forum where posters want mods of particular denominations (usually Catholic) to "look out" for the interests of that group.

The best person (or persons) to mod the forum is just that, not someone who's going to play to a certain side.

Mods are there to enforce the rules, nothing more.

KeithAFC

Sure. Why not.

Soldie

I think it's a bad idea. The problem at the moment is not so much that there are too many NI threads in the main politics forum but, rather, that virtually all of them descend into a pitched battle in which only a handful of people are ever interested in participating, and this alienates the vast majority of the forum's regulars. Permabear also makes a good point in that many of the problematic threads are not necessarily always about Northern Ireland itself; they also include everything from the Easter Rising to the Queen's impending visit. Simply siphoning some of these threads off into a sub-forum in an attempt to raise the quality of the discourse in the main politics forum doesn't address the problem, and will even serve to legitimise the posts of those who are interested in hostile trench warfare -- "it's okay, just so long as you do it in here". Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that the less sub-forums, the better.

Against.
Merely moving,won't change the quality.

Permabear

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K-9

Completely agree, I made that point on the Feedback thread too, there's no point moving them if there isn't a harsher policy on soap boxing etc. The Irish Economy wouldn't inspire confidence in that regard, the extreme posters just move their bone there.

Nodin

I had a suggestion for a moderator, but I don't think he's an active member

PatsytheNazi

Permabear wrote: »

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Agreed, but all I did was to point out what happened on Politics.ie where discussions on the north became a secterian mud slinging contest.

PatsytheNazi

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes, a lot if not most NI threads invovle the south. For example the recent Peter Robinson and " we must halt Sinn Fein’s all-Ireland project " thread.

nesf

Deleted User wrote: »

Against.
Merely moving,won't change the quality.

Moving does allow a separate charter though and separate/extra moderators which solves many of the issues we've been having trying to come up with general rules that apply everywhere that also solve some of the issues on NI threads.

Dudess

A moderating misery I'd bet...

Savage Tyrant

I think overall it would be a good idea. There are plenty of issues that pertain to the north and it seems that a number of posters on the main forum are indifferent to discussing them. A few posters are outright dismissive (yet still feel the need to post in the threads.
A separate forum would serve to actually keep the threads on topic and would make identifying deliberate trolling and derailment, as if a poster has no wish to discuss the issue then their presence in the forum would be questionable.

southsiderosie

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I disagree with your timing argument. If we have a NI forum before the crackdown starts it gives a lot of posters a place to go. If there is no NI forum before the crackdown they will have no place to go, and that will inevitably make the clean-up harder.

But ostensibly the same rules should apply across all sub-forums in Politics? Ring-fencing off NI threads is just kicking the can down the road, and does nothing to address the other problems in the forum (which are not limited to NI/republican-related threads). Plus, as other posters have noted, not all threads involving republicanism are NI threads.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Well I started the thread in feedback so clearly in favour of it.

I'm not going to pretend it will sort out all the problems associated with border politics threads, something bigger needs to change to fix that but I do think it would be helpful rather than unhelpful

That aside, I think its warranted in itself. Starting a thread about candidates running for the strangford constituency would be irrelevent to most posters in the politics forum.

The politics board here is really a ROI politics + major international stories board. That's how its developed naturally and that's cool. I do however believe there is potential for a board which covers more minor general NI politics discussion which just doesn't really fit in at the moment.

It may be quiet, it may be busy, impossible to call these things. I think it has a much better chance of being an active forum if created soon to cater for the NI assembly elections.

Permabear

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nesf

southsiderosie wrote: »

But ostensibly the same rules should apply across all sub-forums in Politics?

They don't already. Rules are applied differently in the different forums and we routinely ban from a sub-forum without banning from the other forums in the family.

Different topics may or may not require different rules. NI threads are a problem right now, almost everyone agrees on this. What we are proposing is shifting them off into their own forum and applying a special set of rules to them without having the problems that come from trying special rules in this forum.


As an aside, the problem on Politics.ie is that they shifted the discussion into a forum of its own and then did not moderate it. They did it specifically to reduce the workload on the moderators.

nesf

Permabear wrote: »

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Easy, drawing the line between threads where the rules apply and where the rules don't would be a nightmare. With DR threads from people claiming ban X was unfair due to the special rules not being applicable in thread Y because of some technicality.

Far simpler to just have a box and every thread in that box has rule set A applied to it. Everything outside of the box has rule set B applied to it. Easier for the user and easier for the mods.

southsiderosie

nesf wrote: »

As an aside, the problem on Politics.ie is that they shifted the discussion into a forum of its own and then did not moderate it. They did it specifically to reduce the workload on the moderators.

What do you think the spillover effects on the rest of the forum be if there was an unmoderated (or very loosely moderated) NI forum? I'd be very concerned that this would draw in even more trolls and muppets, and that this would not only affect the NI subforum, but the politics forum at large.

K-9

The Irish Economy forum needs cracking down on too, maybe apply the same rules there? The Public Service threads are just train wrecks.

I do think a separate NI forum may help but there's a gang of posters, pro and anti Republican that are attracted to any, say SF related thread, whether it be NI or RoI related. They turn up on AH and even Feedback pursuing personal agendas, nothing else!

Soldie

nesf wrote: »

Far simpler to just have a box and every thread in that box has rule set A applied to it. Everything outside of the box has rule set B applied to it. Easier for the user and easier for the mods.

I don't agree that NI threads should be moderated any differently to other threads, even if they are in a sub-forum of their own; it's confusing and it fragments the discussion. I also don't think that having an NI sub-forum with its own rules makes any sense. If it's to show a degree if leniency to posts that would not be allowed in the main forum then it's simply shifting the problem elsewhere, and the sub-forum would amplify the current problem whereby most of the regulars avoid NI threads like the plague. If it's to create a place where those interested can discuss NI politics in a strictly moderated environment then I'd like that place to be the whole politics forum, because the problems facing the politics forum can just as readily be found in threads on Israel, the public sector, and so on.

K-9

Soldie wrote: »

I don't agree that NI threads should be moderated any differently to other threads, even if they are in a sub-forum of their own; it's confusing and it fragments the discussion. I also don't think that having an NI sub-forum with its own rules makes any sense. If it's to show a degree if leniency to posts that would not be allowed in the main forum then it's simply shifting the problem elsewhere, and the sub-forum would amplify the current problem whereby most of the regulars avoid NI threads like the plague. If it's to create a place where those interested can discuss NI politics in a strictly moderated environment then I'd like that place to be the whole politics forum, because the problems facing the politics forum can just as readily be found in threads on Israel, the public sector, and so on.

I know this is only the first suggestion posted from the feedback thread, but I think most posters were just using Republican threads as examples of what goes on in the overall forum, Irish Economy included.

Sure we might as well have a Middle East and Public Sector sub fora and enforce stricter rules on them?

Republican threads got a bit of unfair attention on that thread because of some of the contributors. Stricter moderating is needed everywhere, not just NI threads.

Penfailed

K-9 wrote: »

Stricter moderating is needed everywhere, not just NI threads.

Really? I'm not singling you out K9, as others have said the same but I think in general this forum is well moderated (if a little over moderated at times IMHO).

K-9

Penfailed wrote: »

Really? I'm not singling you out K9, as others have said the same but I think in general this forum is well moderated (if a little over moderated at times IMHO).

Well you see this was originally intended to be more moderated and not AH or a p.ie. As I said on the Feedback thread, I increasingly don't see the distinction.

Scofflaw

So, to come back to a question I asked earlier in the thread, the answer is that soapboxing in general is the issue, with soapboxing on the national question just a visible subset of that?

And is the soapboxing the work of a smallish number of posters, or is there an objection to the fact that there are dominant themes such as the PS pay theme, where we have, for example, a thread with 250+ replies and over 10,000 views on something that never actually happened (the IMF 'investigating' PS pay)? Does getting rid of the main soapboxing posters form a necessary part of any solution to what people currently feel to be the issues with the forum?

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

K-9 wrote: »

Well you see this was originally intended to be more moderated and not AH or a p.ie. As I said on the Feedback thread, I increasingly don't see the distinction.

The problem at its heart is the sheer volume of posters these days due to politics being something that everyone talks about rather than just the hardcore people who are interested in political discussion regardless of whether it's a major news story.

In short, the way I see us getting to where quite a few of you want us to go is to go on quite a broad banning spree and prune quite a number of "problem posters" from the forum and this would include quite a few high profile ones from where I'm standings.

This would really be a case of the mods shaping the discussion on a fundamental level rather than merely enforcing some rules of conduct and it would genuinely upset quite a sizeable number of people who are not calling for stricter moderating.

Penfailed

nesf wrote: »

This would really be a case of the mods shaping the discussion on a fundamental level rather than merely enforcing some rules of conduct and it would genuinely upset quite a sizeable number of people who are not calling for stricter moderating.

Agreed.

K-9

Scofflaw wrote: »

So, to come back to a question I asked earlier in the thread, the answer is that soapboxing in general is the issue, with soapboxing on the national question just a visible subset of that?

And is the soapboxing the work of a smallish number of posters, or is there an objection to the fact that there are dominant themes such as the PS pay theme, where we have, for example, a thread with 250+ replies and over 10,000 views on something that never actually happened (the IMF 'investigating' PS pay)? Does getting rid of the main soapboxing posters form a necessary part of any solution to what people currently feel to be the issues with the forum?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I would have thought it's a general issue. There seems to be a few posters that even if it isn't a PS pay theme topic they'll manage to throw a reference to PS pay anyway!

nesf wrote: »

The problem at its heart is the sheer volume of posters these days due to politics being something that everyone talks about rather than just the hardcore people who are interested in political discussion regardless of whether it's a major news story.

In short, the way I see us getting to where quite a few of you want us to go is to go on quite a broad banning spree and prune quite a number of "problem posters" from the forum and this would include quite a few high profile ones from where I'm standings.

This would really be a case of the mods shaping the discussion on a fundamental level rather than merely enforcing some rules of conduct and it would genuinely upset quite a sizeable number of people who are not calling for stricter moderating.

Well a tightening up on soap boxing or personal attacks may result in quite a few bannings but only if the posters aren't willing to heed mod warnings or are just unable to post without doing it.

Scofflaw made the point on the feedback thread that mods can access a posters history and get a better picture of their posting style so it's only the mods that can tell if they are at this repeatedly.

Permabear

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