Air France 447 wreckage found in Atlantic

David086

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0403/airfrance.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

French investigators have said that they have found parts of an Air France plane that crashed over the Atlantic while flying from Rio de Janeiro to Paris in June 2009, and hoped to locate the black boxes.

The plane went down roughly midway between Brazil and Senegal on 1 June 2009, killing all 228 people on board including three Irish doctors, in the deadliest crash in Air France's history.

France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) said in a statement 'during search operations in the sea carried out in the last 24 hours... the team on board the Alucia located parts of a plane.'

The statement said that 'these elements were identified by BEA investigators as belonging to the wreckage of the A330-203 plane, flight AF 447.'

BEA Director Jean-Paul Troadec also told AFP that investigators have hope of finding the plane's black boxes because the debris area was relatively concentrated.

'The favourable news is that the debris area is relatively concentrated. And this gives us hope of finding the black boxes.' he said.

Troadec said the parts of the wreckage that had been found consisted of 'engines and certain elements of the wing.'

A new search for the wreckage had been launched on 25 March with the help of the Alucia, an American exploration vessel -- the fourth attempt to find the debris in hopes of discovering what caused the crash.

The official cause remains undetermined, but it has been partly blamed on malfunctioning speed sensors used by Airbus, with Air France accused of not responding quickly enough to reports that they might be faulty.

The Alucia came from Seattle in the northwest coast of the United States carrying three Remus submarines that were to search the ocean floor.
Air France and Airbus are being investigated for alleged manslaughter in connection with the crash are paying the estimated $12.7m (€8.9m) cost of the search.

The latest search includes a much larger area of a 46-mile (75-kilometre) radius around the last known position of Flight 447.

A third search of the ocean floor to try to locate the black boxes ended in failure last May.

the_monkey

Beat me to it
here is the BBC link - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12953432

A french judge has filed manslaughter charges against Air France :eek:

For real ? what is the point in this ? Clearly wasn't a case of negligence...

David086

Doesn't the Flight Data Recorders run out after a certain period of time? (or something like that) I remember hearing something like that on the news when it happened.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Joe10000

David086 wrote: »

Doesn't the Flight Data Recorders run out after a certain period of time? (or something like that) I remember hearing something like that on the news when it happened.

No but the radio beacon that helps you find them does.

Trotter

Here's hoping for positive news on the black box search.

pclancy

Hopefully the data is intact, this will finally bring some eventual closure to the families.

basill

Clearly wasn't a case of negligence...

How did you come to that conclusion when the investigators haven't yet recovered the the FDRs and CVRs.

Tenger

David086 wrote: »

Doesn't the Flight Data Recorders run out after a certain period of time? (or something like that) I remember hearing something like that on the news when it happened.

The locater beacon only had battery for 30 days.

drdeadlift

David086 wrote: »

Doesn't the Flight Data Recorders run out after a certain period of time? (or something like that) I remember hearing something like that on the news when it happened.

They only require power to record information,no power needed to store.

iPlop

If it was faulty speed sensors, I wonder were other airlines contacted by airbus about speed sensors after the accident? ,this jet was new built in '05, Airbus obviously new something to be homing in on speed sensors.


I hope this is not something like Aeroperú Flight 603 where the pitot static ports were taped over when the plane was being waxed and cleaned and the tape was never removed, causing the tragedy.

Anyway we don't want to speculate we'll find out after the investigation.I hope the families get some closure soon.

cyrusdvirus

They have just announced that the bodies will be brought up and identified.

-- Bodies of 2009 Air France crash victims will be brought to surface and identified, French official says.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/04/04/france.jet.wreckage/index.html?hpt=T1

ellieh1

gatecrash wrote: »

They have just announced that the bodies will be brought up and identified.

-- Bodies of 2009 Air France crash victims will be brought to surface and identified, French official says.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/04/04/france.jet.wreckage/index.html?hpt=T1

Cross your fingers we get my cousin's body back, so we can bring her home.

David086

Flight attendant's not in their seats? Weird

Chuck Stone

Why don't they make the black boxes so that they float? Seems like a major design flaw that they sink in water.

cyrusdvirus

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why don't they make the black boxes so that they float? Seems like a major design flaw that they sink in water.

What would be the difference if they could float or if then sink if they were entangled in wreckage?

It's more important that they are damn near indestructible in order to survive crashes like this and be able to tell what happened. Because we still do not know.

A320

The Incredible Fridge wrote: »

If it was faulty speed sensors, I wonder were other airlines contacted by airbus about speed sensors after the accident? ,this jet was new built in '05, Airbus obviously new something to be homing in on speed sensors..

Airlines were contacted about Pitot probe replacement,even beforehand.

I Still hope they find out exactly what happened and the DFDR and CVR are capable of holding tough under those conditions for so long.

F/A's not in seats is of no concern,why would they be at crz alt on a long haul flight?? they probably hit that storm or whatever happened so suddenly there was no time to find their seats.Anyway theres no proof they weren't until any sort of proper report comes out,anything else is hearsay.

transylman

Looks like the flight recorders will be recovered. There is still the question of whether they will have been able to survice the impact, the water pressure at that depth, and almost two years of deterioration. You also have to wonder if the electrical problems affected their record ability.

A320

Ya hopefully they can salvage them and give people answers and closure

roundymac

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why don't they make the black boxes so that they float? Seems like a major design flaw that they sink in water.

The black box's which are actually coloured orange are stored deep inside the hull of the aircraft, by the tail as far as I know as this is considered the safest place.

A320

Il upload a pic of one if ye want

David086

A320 wrote: »

Here from an A320

I always thought they looked like some sort of a small brief case but obviously not.

A320

sorry for that there david,my first time uploading a pic and i manage to screw it up

Fixed.Thats the cockpit voice recorder,the DFDR is slightly longer

smellslikeshoes

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why don't they make the black boxes so that they float? Seems like a major design flaw that they sink in water.

As has been said they would probably stay tangled in wreckage but even if they did manage to get free having a floating black box would probably be more of a hindrance than anything else. At least with a black box that doesn't float it's going to stay with the wreckage, so no matter what happens if you find the wreckage there is a good chance you will also find the black box. Imagine the hassle of searching the Atlantic for a orange box a few feet in size, if you didn't find it in the first few hours it could end up anywhere.

radar0976

Pictures of the wreckage were released by the French this evening. Got this from Twitter.

@ThingsWithWings: AF447: Pictures of Newly Discovered Wreckage http://bit.ly/eWkCDC

BuffyBot

Why don't they make the black boxes so that they float? Seems like a major design flaw that they sink in water.

It would be an even bigger flaw if they floated. The tides could carry them half way around the world..

A320

Ya true,anything that floated would all be well and good if SAR teams could get on the scene almost straight away and its probably not going to surface anyway with the rest of the aircraft as it mounted on a rack, maybe in a perfect world!!!

The simple solution is on-time downloads from the Recorders to the airlines computers in a control centre,similar to ACMS (a system similar to the flurry of messages Air France received from the aircraft before it disappeared)

ForceOfNature

This may be impossible but how about if the recorders could indeed float, but they had a small solar panel on them too - this way they could continuously transmit a signal and therefore be easily found ???

cyrusdvirus

ForceOfNature wrote: »

This may be impossible but how about if the recorders could indeed float, but they had a small solar panel on them too - this way they could continuously transmit a signal and therefore be easily found ???

A ship is designed to float, and can be as big and strong as you want, but if you ram one into the water at 200 mph it won't float for too long.

Floating Cvrs and fdrs are not the way to go. Its more important to get real time info being transmitted, but that's not technologically possible yet.

Failing that, make them as strong as you can

A320

I believe a real time link is possible,sure look at acars and acms.it could be transmitted and also kept in the solid state physically

Joe10000

radar0976 wrote: »

Pictures of the wreckage were released by the French this evening. Got this from Twitter.

@ThingsWithWings: AF447: Pictures of Newly Discovered Wreckage http://bit.ly/eWkCDC

Amazing, we take photos like this for granted so easily these days.

cyrusdvirus

A320 wrote: »

I believe a real time link is possible,sure look at acars and acms.it could be transmitted and also kept in the solid state physically

I don't think a real time link for every passenger a/c, transmitting data that would normally be kept in the data recorders is feasible.

How many a/c are in the air at any one time? All of them transmitting info to a central repository, be it the airline HQ or some independent off site place doesn't sound feasible.
And if it was then some gobsh1te hacker would break into it, just to prove it could be done, and do god knows what damage....

I think it would be a better solution, yes, but i don't think we are there yet.

On a related note, do you honestly think that Air France and Airbus would be spending the money on searches for the wreckage of the plane if they had real time recordings?

At least this way, as a side affect of the need of the airline and the manufacturer to find out what the hell happened the jet, some families are going to be able to bring their loved ones home.

Dacian

David086 wrote: »

Flight attendant's not in their seats? Weird

Not really, they could have been in the cabin reassuring pax when the events got out of hand.

I have read the ACARS messages transmitted by the aircraft and its chilling to read. Pretty much, multiple failures in the cockpit in a 10 minutes timeframe, then nothing. The flight deck may not have had the chance to inform the cabin crew to take their seats, the cabin crew may well have taken cabin seats if the turbulence got so bad.


Its pretty amazing that they found the wreckage and judging by the pics looks good that they will find most of it close by.


In terms of cause, there was a very good doc on about 6 months ago that examined the possibility of super cooled water blocking the pitots which caused the a stall in the storm cell. This doc didn't speculate, just examined the possibilities, it also had a younger actor as the pilot in left seat to illustrate that investigatiors believe the captain was not on the flight deck at the time. (This is normal procedure on long flights with an extra pilot)

roundymac

Would it be possible for you Dacian to put up what some of the ACARS were transmitting please.

A320

gatecrash wrote: »

How many a/c are in the air at any one time? All of them transmitting info to a central repository, be it the airline HQ or some independent off site place doesn't sound feasible.
And if it was then some gobsh1te hacker would break into it, just to prove it could be done, and do god knows what damage....

Well many large airlines have plenty of aircraft in the air at once and use ACMS and ACARS systems to constantly transmit data to their headquarters not authorities,i think it would be up to every individual airline to provide such a system,basically its only transmitting 1's and 0's to a server,it would be easy to track ,inking in with each aircraft having their own Hex address,which they have(mode s anyway),the hacking would be stupid as the data would still be held physically,i know its a bit off but its feasible.

Link from other tread
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/awx/2010/07/21/awx_07_21_2010_p0-242592.xml

savagecabbages

In that picture showing landing gear, is that gear extended or stowed?
I'm not familiar with what way it folds/extends....

It looks to me to be extended, which is unusual no?

refusetolose

when i first saw this thread i thought it said Air France 447 wreckage found in Atlantis

i was like,cool,they found atlantis then

roundymac

savagecabbages wrote: »

In that picture showing landing gear, is that gear extended or stowed?
I'm not familiar with what way it folds/extends....

It looks to me to be extended, which is unusual no?

It's broken out of it's houseing, it may even be detached from the wreckage,same as the engine. While they said they can see part of the fuselage they have not stated it is compleate, which it is unlikely to be.

Dacian

Here is an explanation of the ACARS received, taken from this website:
http://www.abnormaldistribution.org/2009/06/11/af-447-acars-messages-reading-tea-leaves/
I originally saw a printout of the messages with no explanation and the rapidity of the failures scared me. They start at 0210, approx 3.5 hours after take-off.

* at 3.5 hours before the main events, a 3831 event. Something concerning waste disposal (38 is water and waste, and 3830 is the waste disposal system)
0210, a 2210 event: AP off (22 is Auto Flight and 2210 is the Autopilot system)
0210, a 2262 event (22 is Auto Flight; I have no code 2260)
0210, a 2791 event, flight control switch to alternate law (27 is flight controls; I have no code 2790 or 2791)
0210, two 2283 events, flags raised on CAP and FO Primary Flight Displays (PFD) (22 is Auto Flight, I have no code 2283)
0210, a 2230 event, autothrust off (2230 is the auto throttle system)
0210, a 3443 event, a TCAS problem (34 is navigation; 3443 is the Doppler system. The Doppler system here is used to measure relative motion of another body, in this case another aircraft, for TCAS).
0210, two more 2283 PFD flags
0210, a 2723 rudder travel limiter fault (27 is flight controls, 2720 is the rudder control system). At higher airspeeds, the rudder travel is limited by the Rudder Travel Limiter; far less movement is allowed than at lower airspeeds.
0210, a 3411 event with EFCS 2, reported by EFCS1 (3411 is the pitot/static system. I understand that on these airplanes, the system is divided into the pitot subsystem and the static subsystem).
0210, a 2793 event involving EFCS 1. (27 is flight controls. I understand from colleagues that, on the A330, 2793 is the Flight Control Primary Computer, FCPC, also designated PRIM)
0211, a couple more 2283 PFD flags
0212, a 3410 event. A disagreement between the air data units, the AD part of the ADIRU (34 is navigation; 3410 is flight environment data). An “ADR disagree” can only occur when one of the three ADIRUs has already been designated as faulty by the FCPC, and the two remaining ADIRUs yield discrepant readings (this information from the Aircraft Operating Manual of the A330)
0212, a 3422 event in the standby flight instruments (ISIS) (34 is navigation, 3422 is directional gyro and indicators)
0212, a 3412 event involving IR2, the inertial reference part of ADIRU2 (34 is navigation; 3412 is the outside air temperature sensor and indicator). Reported by IR1 and IR3 and EFCS1.
0213, two 2790 (EFCS) events, FCPC 1 and Secondary FCC (FCSC) 1 faults (27 is flight control; I don’t have the 2790 designator)
0213, a 2283 event, reported by FMGKC1 (22 is autoflight, I understand from colleagues that 2283 is the Flight Management and Guidance Computer, FMGC)
0214, a 2131 event (21 is the air conditioning, 2131 is the cabin pressure controller).

I'm not 100% but I think the last message, referring to cabin pressure initially led to the theory of an inflight breakup. However the wreckage found 2 years ago indicated a horizontal impact onto the ocean surface.

cyrusdvirus

Dacian wrote: »

ACARS STUFF

Not quoting the whole thing for size reasons, but thanks for putting that up.

I can't remember what flight level AF447 was travelling at but 3 minutes isn't a long time when you are dealing with multiple failures and attempting to diagnose and fix them.

roundymac

Thanks for that Dacian.

christy c

Haven't been watching much news or browsing the web recently so only after hearing this now. This is great news, I thought they might as well be looking for a needle in a hay stack. Hopefully they find the black boxes and find out what really happened

JonathanAnon

Not sure whether you've all seen this before (or whether I'm allowed to post links here), but the NOVA documentary tried to recreate the accident by putting two pilots in an aircraft simulator and then triggering the exact ACARS errors that were received from AF447

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTL3WfpMOM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDsy-TCLfwg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otkPewDA-6E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ0ScIg04pw

Trotter

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Not sure whether you've all seen this before (or whether I'm allowed to post links here), but the NOVA documentary tried to recreate the accident by putting two pilots in an aircraft simulator and then triggering the exact ACARS errors that were received from AF447

Really interesting stuff. It was unnerving watching how easy it was to recreate the problem that potentially caused the pitot tube failure.

JonathanAnon

Trotter wrote: »

Really interesting stuff. It was unnerving watching how easy it was to recreate the problem that potentially caused the pitot tube failure.

Yeah, there's also another BBC documentary I watched on youtube a while ago.. It stated that the Air France Pilot's union downed tools completely after this accident, until all the pitot tube upgrades were made to the Airbus A330s in their fleet... So it seems pretty clear what they are blaming for the accident..

xtradel

Flight recorder found...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13218021

refusetolose

xtradel wrote: »

Flight recorder found...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13218021

only a part of it that contains no data..

savagecabbages

refusetolose wrote: »

only a part of it that contains no data..

seemingly so...
I'm still amazed that they found part of it at all!
Does this happen often that an FDR gets damaged/smashed?
Or has one ever been recovered but damaged beyond usefulness?

cyrusdvirus

savagecabbages wrote: »

seemingly so...
I'm still amazed that they found part of it at all!
Does this happen often that an FDR gets damaged/smashed?
Or has one ever been recovered but damaged beyond usefulness?

It happens more often than you'd like to think.

The Lauda Air crash in 1991 is one time that i can remember off the top of my head

brophya2007

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13255673

One of the two flight recorders belonging to an Air France plane that crashed in 2009 off the coast of Brazil has been recovered, officials say.

French search teams last week found the outer casing of the so-called black box recorder, but not its memory.

Experts say the data in the flight recorders is the only hope of finding out why the plane went down.

All 228 people on board were killed when the Paris-bound flight plunged into the ocean in June 2009.

CommuterIE

Great news!

Hopefully the data can be extracted and get to the bottom of what was an extremely tragic event