Does anyone else want the government to go to the dumps?

CorkMan

I am probably the only person who feels like this, but here it goes.

The social welfare is way too much, €188 a week with fuel allowance, €164 without it, but other side perks. I feel that this is just way too easy for people. In America people are only entitled to full welfare for a bit, then cut off. But there aren't millions starving are there? In the UK people only get £60 a week. I know they get vouchers and assistant, but only £60 in disposable income. Meanwhile over here people can buy iPads, go on holidays, buy a car without having to lift a finger.

I would like to see a total refurbishment of the system, total. I would like for the social welfare having to be hacked down to under €100 a week, get people out there working. Now I don't want people to be homeless and starving, so keep up housing assistance but the €100 mark is plenty for people to keep eating. I don't want the country to become a hardship, but I wouldn't be completely against there being another "black Thursday"

Lets face it, the politicans will never be put into jail and the bankers will get away, there won't be a massive revolt here where the people will get Brian Cowen and make sure he pays for it. ie give him 30+ years in a stinking cell where he has to slop out every morning. What I have said is probably the most likely outcome. What do people think of my proposal? We all seem to be living in fairyland in Ireland.

chucken1

Get your figures on Social Welfare correct before you post. Not EVERYONE has 'perks'. Not EVERYONE gets 188e a week. Im so sick of this all over Boards. You want to blame the people on social welfare for the problems of the country! Ya 450,000 people..big conspiracy.

RayM

CorkMan wrote: »

What do people think of my proposal?

I think it's illogical, stultifyingly short-sighted and stinks of the most obnoxious kind of misanthropy.

I, for one, certainly don't want to see the government fail. However unlikely this may be, I want to see them succeed in repairing the mess left behind by their predecessors and building a genuinely healthy economy where jobs are plentiful. Be careful what you wish for... another "Black Thursday" could well result in you and your embittered ilk suddenly finding out just how difficult it is to live on €188 per week.

CorkMan

I never said that people with social welfare were responsible for the "problems" ( a wide term) of this country. I made a figure of people on €188, and people on €164 when the fuel allowance is cut. People on €100 ATM I did not include. Plus I don't see anyone starving on €188-€164.

I'm just saying the social welfare should be lowered to a permanent lowered amount, in line with other european countries and the USA. If people can get iPads, go abroad and get cars then there is a problem. (PS, it was the bankers and FF TD's that messed up the country)

amacachi

I come from a dole family but will base the rest of this not on the OP but on what I really think.


EVERYTHING has to be reduced. The dole, rent allowance and all the rest. That is all.

RayM

CorkMan wrote: »

If people can get iPads, go abroad and get cars then there is a problem.

Who on earth are these people? I don't personally know anybody on the dole, who can afford an iPad, a foreign holiday or to buy a car. Of course, I'm not suggesting that this is anything other than anecdotal evidence. Perhaps there are people out there, who can (somehow) make their €188 per week stretch beyond groceries, household bills, etc, towards consumer electronics and cars, and still have enough left over to jet off to the Mediterranean whenever they feel like topping up their suntans.

Cutting Social Welfare rates, without first creating an environment conducive to the creation of several hundred thousand jobs, won't put anybody into work. It'll put many into poverty.

chucken1

CorkMan wrote: »

I never said that people with social welfare were responsible for the "problems" ( a wide term) of this country. I made a figure of people on €188, and people on €164 when the fuel allowance is cut. People on €100 ATM I did not include. Plus I don't see anyone starving on €188-€164.

I'm just saying the social welfare should be lowered to a permanent lowered amount, in line with other european countries and the USA. If people can get iPads, go abroad and get cars then there is a problem. (PS, it was the bankers and FF TD's that messed up the country)

Id check properly if I were you. I think you are presuming a lot.
You think the 100e is for new people on social welfare? 18 year olds maybe?
As I said get you're FACTS right before you post!

chucken1

OP. I suggest you look up the allowence for a person on Illness benefit with 1 dependant. No perks! and no 188e each either! Social Welfare covers a lot of people.

17pc of that is for rent btw.

CorkMan

What do you mean dependent? I don't know. Could you expand please.

Jesus Wept

CorkMan wrote: »

I

I would like for the social welfare having to be hacked down to under €100 a week, get people out there working.

Get people out there working by cutting welfare...
Are you even remotely aware of the current employment situation?
There are not enough jobs, whatsoever.

Anyhow...
The U.S system is awful and would lead to a lot of homelessness and hardship.
As regards the UK system, welfare vouchers are degrading.

First thing that should be sorted out is the housing system. Rents are inflated and propped up for everyone because of how it is implemented.

chucken1

CorkMan wrote: »

What do you mean dependent? I don't know. Could you expand please.

Look it up! Its there on citizens info.
You post in Humanities Forum and you dont know what a Dependant is?

Not everyone on Boards is 18

chucken1

The-Rigger wrote: »

Get people out there working by cutting welfare...
Are you even remotely aware of the current employment situation?
There are not enough jobs, whatsoever.

Anyhow...
The U.S system is awful and would lead to a lot of homelessness and hardship.
As regards the UK system, welfare vouchers are degrading.

First thing that should be sorted out is the housing system. Rents are inflated and propped up for everyone because of how it is implemented.

I totally agree..but! I think what happened was..people bought the houses thinking they'd have tenants forever to pay the mortgage.

I know 2 people who are renting for 4 years as a couple. Both working in a factory. 350ish take home. Now they've broke up but are staying in the house because they signed a yearly lease. Rent was 700 a month..750 since January!

RayM

CorkMan wrote: »

If people can get iPads, go abroad and get cars then there is a problem.

I feel the urge to reiterate my question. Who are these people? Given that this is Humanities and not AH, surely a citation of some kind of source might lend your argument a bit of weight. If you trot out a load of what looks very much like utter nonsense about social welfare recipients leading lives of luxury, then the onus is on you to show examples, or at least prove how - on €188 per week - it is actually possible to buy iPads, cars and holidays.

CorkMan

RayM wrote: »

I feel the urge to reiterate my question. Who are these people? Given that this is Humanities and not AH, surely a citation of some kind of source might lend your argument a bit of weight. If you trot out a load of what looks very much like utter nonsense about social welfare recipients leading lives of luxury, then the onus is on you to show examples, or at least prove how - on €188 per week - it is actually possible to buy iPads, cars and holidays.

I know a man who get €188 a week. He spends €50 on groceries and €24 on rent allowance. He has €114 disposable income every week. His mother goes over to New York once a year for shopping and he gives her a couple of hundred, which covers his clothes.

He gets free units for the ESB, but the ESB amount is less than 1 weeks "disposable income amount". So for 7 weeks out of 8 he has €114 disposable income.

Rubik.

CorkMan wrote: »

I'm just saying the social welfare should be lowered to a permanent lowered amount, in line with other european countries and the USA.

Which European countries? From the OECD's cross-country comparison of wages, taxes and benefits in 2006...

The problem isn't the amount of money given out, it's the lazy way it's given out. A lot of people who need it can't get it, a lot of people who get it don't need it, and a huge amount of people willing to lie their way around the system can. And all the while, the people who are abusing the system are giving genuine cases a bad name.

A possible example:
Woman A leaves the name of her child's father off the birth cert. She lives with the father but not officially, as he has proof of address for somewhere else. So she gets seen as a single mother living on her own, when in fact not only is she living with her boyfriend, but he's the actual father and is supporting her.
Woman B has the father's name down on the birth cert, they live together for a year, he leaves her with a 1 year old to look after, goes and lives with his mother or whoever, stops supporting her and then she can't get any social welfare because officially she's living with the father of her child. Woman B has to leave her part time job because the only way she can get financial help is to be fully dependent on social welfare.

Fair?

Maybe the amount is unfair, maybe it isn't, but the clear disinterest of the state in how these payments are given out is far too lax.

looksee

As a bit of an aside from Social Welfare, does anyone know what the OP is actually asking in the title? I get the gist, but as a question it doesn't seem to make any sense.

caseyann

CorkMan wrote: »

I know a man who get €188 a week. He spends €50 on groceries and €24 on rent allowance. He has €114 disposable income every week. His mother goes over to New York once a year for shopping and he gives her a couple of hundred, which covers his clothes.

He gets free units for the ESB, but the ESB amount is less than 1 weeks "disposable income amount". So for 7 weeks out of 8 he has €114 disposable income.

So he told you his information did he.And he has no heating bills.Did he tell you he gets free units for ESB? Because people on social welfare must be in worst circumstances to get that.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/household_benefits_package.html

Maybe thats her own money? or widows pension?





I love how people assume that others live well on social welfare and say cut it to a €100.
Who do you want to cut to €100 op?
Singles living at home with their parents? Possible yes.
Women alone with kids (impossible)
Old people (impossible)( and demeaning)
Single people living in flats with no rent help? (impossible)
Single people with rent help (possible) I dont know.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dan_d

Can I meet these people? I'm on 188 eur a week.....can't afford anything extra, least of all an iPad (I wish!).

Had a recent discussion with someone working with quite a good wage (40k+), about "extra spending money". She said she's not paid well, she rarely has any extra "spending money". I said I'm on SW, get way less money than you (and none of the extra benefits at all), and I'm just managing. Her response?

"That's because you don't buy anything outside your weekly food shop.You don't buy extra stuff".........


Like I said - can I meet these people???

Tayla

CorkMan wrote: »

The social welfare is way too much, €188 a week with fuel allowance, €164 without it, but other side perks. I feel that this is just way too easy for people. In America people are only entitled to full welfare for a bit, then cut off. But there aren't millions starving are there? In the UK people only get £60 a week. I know they get vouchers and assistant, but only £60 in disposable income. Meanwhile over here people can buy iPads, go on holidays, buy a car without having to lift a finger.

First of all i'm glad you adknowledged that people in the UK get plenty of added benefits that make it all add up.

There are very few people who can afford all those things you mentioned just from social welfare and there are stories about people in the UK being able to afford them aswell.

Just because a few people can afford a lot of luxuries doesn't mean that everyones payments should be cut as the vast vast majority are already barely surviving on what they do get.

ardmacha

The validity of this chart may well depend on the difference between unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance. Many countries, quite appropriately, pay unemployment benefits that are a substantial proportion of wages. However after a while this ends and much lower rates are paid.

RichardAnd

CorkMan wrote: »

I never said that people with social welfare were responsible for the "problems" ( a wide term) of this country. I made a figure of people on €188, and people on €164 when the fuel allowance is cut. People on €100 ATM I did not include. Plus I don't see anyone starving on €188-€164.

I'm just saying the social welfare should be lowered to a permanent lowered amount, in line with other european countries and the USA. If people can get iPads, go abroad and get cars then there is a problem. (PS, it was the bankers and FF TD's that messed up the country)

THis country was messed up by a combination of poor political decisions (endorced by the electorate), banks, global circumstances beyond our control, hundreds of thousands of people spending what they didn't have and various other things. In short, blaming a select few people is a very narrow minded view on the situiation but judging by the post you started this thread with, I'm not surprised you might think that.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Rubik.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

A recent study by Camille Loftus, UCD, found that only 3.8% of those currently on the unemployment register would be financially better off on the dole than if they they where in employment. During our boom years, long-term benefits payments only led to long-term unemployment in a relatively small number of cases, from memory around 28,000. When there was work available - people chose to work, no such incentive based system is needed.

Godge

RayM wrote: »

Who on earth are these people? I don't personally know anybody on the dole, who can afford an iPad, a foreign holiday or to buy a car. Of course, I'm not suggesting that this is anything other than anecdotal evidence. Perhaps there are people out there, who can (somehow) make their €188 per week stretch beyond groceries, household bills, etc, towards consumer electronics and cars, and still have enough left over to jet off to the Mediterranean whenever they feel like topping up their suntans.

Cutting Social Welfare rates, without first creating an environment conducive to the creation of several hundred thousand jobs, won't put anybody into work. It'll put many into poverty.

Know one person on social welfare who was on three holidays last year. He lives on our road. I suppose he could be doing some nixers but he has no qualifications and no trade and there is no evidence of any nixers - rarely seen before 2.00 p.m.

Know quite a few others on social welfare who only had the standard one holiday. Still it is one more than I will have this year (I work by the way).

Godge

Rubik. wrote: »

A recent study by Camille Loftus, UCD, found that only 3.8% of those currently on the unemployment register would be financially better off on the dole than if they they where in employment. During our boom years, long-term benefits payments only led to long-term unemployment in a relatively small number of cases, from memory around 28,000. When there was work available - people chose to work, no such incentive based system is needed.

http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/events/employment_crisis_bios.php#Loftus


"Camille Loftus specialises in policy on welfare-to-work transitions and the labour market, with a focus on poverty and inequality, principally gender. Her experience includes front line service delivery, policy advocacy, and research and consultancy services. She has worked with a number of national social partner organisations including the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed, OPEN (national lone parents network), Mandate trade union and the National Women's Council of Ireland; as well as with the WRC (social and economic consultants). She is a former member of the National Economic and Social Council, and has participated in social partnership deliberations on social welfare and tax reform, labour market policy, and the National Anti-Poverty Strategy. Currently, Camille is pursuing a Social Policy PhD on flexicurity and its application in the Irish context."

From her background, I would expect Camille Loftus' research to say that. Similarly, if it was Colm McCarthy doing the research or some other right-wing economist, I would expect the opposite answer. Sociological research isn't exactly garbage in, garbage out but a lot of it is restricted viewpoint and assumptions in, heavily qualified outcome out.

Idbatterim

I was talking to a Spanish girl yesterday, who said that after a while in Spain if you are unemployed you simply get cut off, it may be harsh, but if it were severely dropped here, people would either have to actively go out and look for job (if not already doing so), make do or emigrate... Maybe drop it 10% every third, so after a year, people would be on €112.80, anyone who tells me they cant live on that, assuming they have no debt to pay off and no car (obviously cant budget)... As for the argument of "what about the people with loans" well should we pay 100% of people on the dole more than necessary for the maybe 20-25% this would effect? In most other countries, its based on what you actually pay in! but this would actually go against the whole Irish ethos, as it would be discriminatory, unfair, targeting the vulnerable (have I missed any of the usual gems)?

dan_d

Nah, but what you would be saying right at this point in time is "right you're cut off, go emigrate".

Coz there aren't any jobs out there. Sorry, let me correct that - there aren't enough jobs out there.Otherwise I, for one, wouldn't be sitting here on Boards at 15:07 in the PM, trying to pass the time.

Rubik.

Godge wrote: »

http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/events/employment_crisis_bios.php#Loftus




From her background, I would expect Camille Loftus' research to say that. Similarly, if it was Colm McCarthy doing the research or some other right-wing economist, I would expect the opposite answer. Sociological research isn't exactly garbage in, garbage out but a lot of it is restricted viewpoint and assumptions in, heavily qualified outcome out.

I have no reason to doubt her findings. If you can prove her 3.8% figure is incorrect - by all means do so.

Idbatterim

I dont hope the government goes to the dumps, but I do hope the public finances figures miss the IMF/Eu targets, so meaningful changes can happen, as long as we live in denial, the private sector and unemployed are suffering, the only hope we have left is the IMf/EU to make changes the NEW Government have already shied away from, no wonder after 15 years in power FF lost their way! these guys are in barely 15 days, and already they backing down on anything, appealing to the masses!

Godge

Rubik. wrote: »

I have no reason to doubt her findings. If you can prove her 3.8% figure is incorrect - by all means do so.

But I have given you reason to doubt any sociological research. A lot of it (not all) is a bit like an opinion poll in Yes Prime Minister.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgyKpkLpccE


So unless it is on a straightforward statistic like provided in the Census (and even then, some of the questions are loaded) or the number of cars sold in Ireland, treat every bit of sociological research with great care. By pointing out her background, I am pointing to the potential for the well-documented effect of observer bias. See here for a definition:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-observerbias.html

Given the above, I don't need to prove the 3.8% is incorrect.

Rubik.

Godge wrote: »

But I have given you reason to doubt any sociological research. A lot of it (not all) is a bit like an opinion poll in Yes Prime Minister.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgyKpkLpccE


So unless it is on a straightforward statistic like provided in the Census (and even then, some of the questions are loaded) or the number of cars sold in Ireland, treat every bit of sociological research with great care. By pointing out her background, I am pointing to the potential for the well-documented effect of observer bias. See here for a definition:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-observerbias.html

Given the above, I don't need to prove the 3.8% is incorrect.

The amount an unemployed person is entitled to receive from the state is known, the number of people on the live register is know, our tax system is known as is our minimum wage rate. The calculation of how many people would be financially better off on the dole than working is based on mathematics, not opinion. So neither your opinion of sociological research or observer bias is relevant. She has either calculated the percentage correctly or she hasn't.

Godge

Rubik. wrote: »

The amount an unemployment person is entitled to receive from the state is known, the number of people on the live register is know, our tax system is known as is our minimum wage rate. The calculation of how many people would better on the dole than working is based on mathemathics, not opinion. So neither your opinion of sociological research or observer bias is relavent. She has either calculated the percentage correctly or she hasn't.

Jobseekers allowance: €188
Minimum wage: €7.65 @30 hours = €229.50 less €4 approx for USC = €225.50 less €30 for expenses = €195.50 = net gain for working 30 hours a week at minimum wage is 25 cent per hour.

Now you can take a strict mathematical analysis and conclude that the person would be 25 cent per hour better off by working and therefore only 3.8% would be worse off sitting on the dole (those who qualify for a lower minimum wage or who can't work 30 hours).

Or you can take a reasonable conculsion and say that nobody would get out of bed for 25 cent an hour and that for a job on the minimum wage, it is not worth giving up jobseekers allowance.

Depends on your point of view or your observer bias.

Rubik.

Godge wrote: »

Jobseekers allowance: €188
Minimum wage: €7.65 @30 hours = €229.50 less €4 approx for USC = €225.50 less €30 for expenses = €195.50 = net gain for working 30 hours a week at minimum wage is 25 cent per hour.

Now you can take a strict mathematical analysis and conclude that the person would be 25 cent per hour better off by working and therefore only 3.8% would be worse off sitting on the dole (those who qualify for a lower minimum wage or who can't work 30 hours).

Or you can take a reasonable conculsion and say that nobody would get out of bed for 25 cent an hour and that for a job on the minimum wage, it is not worth giving up jobseekers allowance.

Depends on your point of view or your observer bias.

The average working week in Ireland is 39.4 hours, so a more realistic figure would be 301.41 euros. The Government has pledged to reverse the 1 euro cut, so it will soon return to around 340 euros a week. There are also tax breaks for those on benefits who return to work under the revenue return to work scheme i.e. additional tax-free allowances for 3 years.

NWPat

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was talking to a Spanish girl yesterday, who said that after a while in Spain if you are unemployed you simply get cut off, it may be harsh, but if it were severely dropped here, people would either have to actively go out and look for job (if not already doing so), make do or emigrate... Maybe drop it 10% every third, so after a year, people would be on €112.80, anyone who tells me they cant live on that, assuming they have no debt to pay off and no car (obviously cant budget)... As for the argument of "what about the people with loans" well should we pay 100% of people on the dole more than necessary for the maybe 20-25% this would effect? In most other countries, its based on what you actually pay in! but this would actually go against the whole Irish ethos, as it would be discriminatory, unfair, targeting the vulnerable (have I missed any of the usual gems)?

I sick to death of this "bloke in a pub said" rubbish that has become all too common on boards. The Spanish system of social welfare is very generous compared to here, for example, when you first become unemployed you recieve 65% of the national average wage. That would mean about €400 a week here under the same system. You get this for 2 years and then if you are still unemployed there are a whole raft of means tested benefits available.

feicim

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was talking to a Spanish girl yesterday, who said that after a while in Spain if you are unemployed you simply get cut off, it may be harsh, but if it were severely dropped here, people would either have to actively go out and look for job ?

I agree. Although there may be few conventional jobs available (about 500,000 less than what we need) if social welfare was just stopped or halved people should not despair. There are many options available to them. The Irish should maybe look to the 3rd world for inspiration.

There are major opportunites collecting aluminum cans and other scrap metal. Its not just the 3rd world countries that can use this valuable resource.

If you are attractive, prostitution could be another good source of income for those who have been totally cut off from a source of income.

Then there is the obvious one, good old fashioned theft. Muggings or burglary to start of with maybe moving up to kidnap, extortion and drug dealing for those with an ambitious temperatment with a thirst for excitement.

later12

feicim wrote: »

There are major opportunites collecting aluminum cans and other scrap metal. Its not just the 3rd world countries that can use this valuable resource.

Actually, despite the tone of the post the scrap metal one is a good suggestion. Reminded me of this article by Merrym Somerset Webb

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/00837d62-0a06-11e0-9bb4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1J7X1kNMB

Here’s a festive scene for you. I’m in John Lewis in Edinburgh. I’m leaving the cookery department and heading, via the escalators, for the toy department to have a go at elbowing the other middle-class mummies out of the way to get to the special edition orange micro-scooters, when I overhear a snatch of conversation behind me.
“It’s copper,” says a voice. “You can get a lot more for it than you used to.”
I start eavesdropping. Turns out that the young couple behind me have a technically unemployed friend who makes more money than they do by spending his days digging around in skips for bits of discarded metal which he then sells by weight to the “scrappies”.
The couple don’t fancy the work themselves but they are impressed with the tax-free cash flow their mate brings in. I am too – although I don’t really approve of the tax-free bit. I am not averse to a bit of skip-searching myself; most of the fuel for our woodburning stove comes from the ones I pass on my school run. But it hadn’t actually occurred to me to nick metal as well. I’m generally more of an exchange-traded fund person when it comes to rising commodities.

CorkMan

I'm a bit confused in this day and age. I think sometimes if the Social welfare is cut people would work very hard and it would kick start a lot of peoples lifes. But other times I am convinced people would starve and be homeless, which I wouldn't hope for.

With the topic title, I was thinking if the irish goverment had to "default" (word I was searching for, to the dumps does not suffice) then we would stand up and try to improve our country to the most THE PEOPLE can.

nuig free economics society

Agreed. Dole has to be (and will be) abolished.
The trick is that everything has to be done at the same time. Default,morgage mess sorted, abolishment of the minimum wage and stupid unions!
I would also f*** EU and come come back to irish £. Most of exports are in $. Ireland does not even trade with europe that much.
We need sound money to be able to growth exports and domestic.

nuig free economics society

Rubik. wrote: »

Which European countries? From the OECD's cross-country comparison of wages, taxes and benefits in 2006...

have you data from 2010?
2006 might not apply

Rubik.

nuig free economics society wrote: »

have you data from 2010?
2006 might not apply

No, they were the most up to date figures I could find.

donal_cam

CorkMan wrote: »

I never said that people with social welfare were responsible for the "problems" ( a wide term) of this country. I made a figure of people on €188, and people on €164 when the fuel allowance is cut. People on €100 ATM I did not include. Plus I don't see anyone starving on €188-€164.

I'm just saying the social welfare should be lowered to a permanent lowered amount, in line with other european countries and the USA. If people can get iPads, go abroad and get cars then there is a problem. (PS, it was the bankers and FF TD's that messed up the country)

How many unemployed do you know with Ipads or who go abroad regularly? The dole is very difficult to survive on- prices are going up quickly, esp things like fuel and food. The current trend towards investment and speculation in commodities by traders means they'll continue to rise too. If price controls were put on necessaries like food, fuel and clothing, then the dole could be cut, but they won't be imposed by this government.

donal_cam

nuig free economics society wrote: »

Agreed. Dole has to be (and will be) abolished.
The trick is that everything has to be done at the same time. Default,morgage mess sorted, abolishment of the minimum wage and stupid unions!
I would also f*** EU and come come back to irish £. Most of exports are in $. Ireland does not even trade with europe that much.
We need sound money to be able to growth exports and domestic.

The minimum wage and unions have nothing to do with the mess we find ourselves in. It's purely caused by financial speculation in the private sector and government pandering to construction lobbies by introducing tax-breaks. Companies like Dell didn't leave because of high wages or unions: they left because of ridiculously high costs caused in large part by the private sector or by government measures designed to introduce private sector competition into things like electricity. Most of our imports come from the UK and the rest of the EU, while the majority of our exports are to other EU countries as well.
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/botmaintrpartners.htm


The reason why transactions are priced in dollars is because of its role as the worlds reserve currency, and the fact the markets prefer to price commodities in it rather than the EU is because the Fed can print or control its money supply with more regard to local economic conditions than the euro, which has to take account of vastly disparate economies. In any case, there have been moves to replace the dollar as a reserve currency by the euro, notwithstanding the financial crisis.

danbohan

donal_cam wrote: »

How many unemployed do you know with Ipads or who go abroad regularly? The dole is very difficult to survive on- prices are going up quickly, esp things like fuel and food. The current trend towards investment and speculation in commodities by traders means they'll continue to rise too. If price controls were put on necessaries like food, fuel and clothing, then the dole could be cut, but they won't be imposed by this government.

then the dole could be cut, but they won't be imposed by this government.


are we in a position to say what we can or cannot do ? , the level of denial of the situation this country is in from the public service eg the gardai , to the unemployed is mind boggling ,

donal_cam

danbohan wrote: »

then the dole could be cut, but they won't be imposed by this government.


are we in a position to say what we can or cannot do ? , the level of denial of the situation this country is in from the public service eg the gardai , to the unemployed is mind boggling ,

We aren't, quite frankly, unless we default, repudiate the EU/IMF deal and leave the eurozone.

later12

Why do people seem to think that the natural course of action following on from a (presumably unilateral?) default is to leave the Eurozone.

Logic dictates that if you default, you cling to the Euro even more tenaciously.

RichardAnd

later10 wrote: »

Why do people seem to think that the natural course of action following on from a (presumably unilateral?) default is to leave the Eurozone.

Logic dictates that if you default, you cling to the Euro even more tenaciously.

Perhaps because most people, at least on this board, have no idea what they're talking about?

HellFireClub

CorkMan wrote: »

I am probably the only person who feels like this, but here it goes.

The social welfare is way too much, €188 a week with fuel allowance, €164 without it, but other side perks. I feel that this is just way too easy for people. In America people are only entitled to full welfare for a bit, then cut off. But there aren't millions starving are there? In the UK people only get £60 a week. I know they get vouchers and assistant, but only £60 in disposable income. Meanwhile over here people can buy iPads, go on holidays, buy a car without having to lift a finger.

I would like to see a total refurbishment of the system, total. I would like for the social welfare having to be hacked down to under €100 a week, get people out there working. Now I don't want people to be homeless and starving, so keep up housing assistance but the €100 mark is plenty for people to keep eating. I don't want the country to become a hardship, but I wouldn't be completely against there being another "black Thursday"

Lets face it, the politicans will never be put into jail and the bankers will get away, there won't be a massive revolt here where the people will get Brian Cowen and make sure he pays for it. ie give him 30+ years in a stinking cell where he has to slop out every morning. What I have said is probably the most likely outcome. What do people think of my proposal? We all seem to be living in fairyland in Ireland.

You're talking out of your ar*ehole on this subject. What's all this rubbish about people buying iPads and such nonsense???

I've only come off the dole a few months back after starting up my own business, at every step of the way, I was opposed by every single state agency that I went to, be it Revenue who were insisting that I prove that I had a lease on a premises, (in a situation where I was starting up from my own house, which is rented with two others by the way before anyone attacks me for being a property owner!), before they would issue a VAT number, County Enterprise Boards, a politically appointed group of absolute and utter f*ckwits who I wouldn't let run a bath, FAS, if they had their own way, they would have you chained to a photocopier for two weeks photocopying paperwork on your business, "for their file"...

You have no idea whatsoever what it is like to be applying for hundreds of jobs and not even getting a reply, some people have nervous breakdowns, when you are on the dole, you end up suffering from this thing that I've actually come up with my own name for, it's a confidence breakdown, you start believing that the problem is not the economy or the jobs situation but the problem is actually you, yourself....

Before you come on here talking out of your ar_se about iPads and such rubbish, walk a mile in another mans shoes for a start and then ask yourself why your government is three years into this crisis and has still to come up up with a credible jobs strategy that assists rather than obstructs entrepreneurs such as myself...

There would be more jobs in this country if we stopped idiotic public sector goons from creating mountains of beaurocracy for people who want to start up businesses, there is plenty of positive thinking out there and plenty of smart thinking and most importantly there are plenty of people who are happy to take the risks, but we have banks that don't/won't/can't lend, just look at AIB, accounced losses of 10,000,000,000 Euro today for last year, 2,000 minimum job losses now on the table and the same executive saps still running the show, yet somehow we expect to see the much promised, "change"?!?!?

If a FRACTION of the money that was being lamped into the banks, was lent directly to small start up's, there would be growth in this country and a new energy emerging with regard to starting to climb out of this disaster. Instead, it's more of the same, bailing out institutions that have been deemed too big to fail while cash is pulled out of the economy to pay for it.

We need to stop whinging about those in Club 188 and start getting behind those who can create jobs.

mlumley

Stop reading the Daily Mail.

CorkMan wrote: »

I am probably the only person who feels like this, but here it goes.

The social welfare is way too much, €188 a week with fuel allowance, €164 without it, but other side perks.


I dont get perks, no Merc and driver for me.

I feel that this is just way too easy for people. In America people are only entitled to full welfare for a bit, then cut off. But there aren't millions starving are there?

Yes, actualy there are. They have charity food points and soup kitchens to feed needy people. Also have them in Dublin acording to news reports.


In the UK people only get £60 a week. I know they get vouchers and assistant, but only £60 in disposable income.

You mean like rent subsidy, like here.

Meanwhile over here people can buy iPads, go on holidays, buy a car without having to lift a finger.

I have no iPod, cant afford a car, cant even afford to get my motor bike fixed so I can travel to look for work.
I would like to see a total refurbishment of the system, total. I would like for the social welfare having to be hacked down to under €100 a week, get people out there working.

And where are these jobs they should be doing? None round my way.



Now I don't want people to be homeless and starving, so keep up housing assistance but the €100 mark is plenty for people to keep eating.

Yeah right. 1 adult and 3 kids. lol lol lol.


I don't want the country to become a hardship, but I wouldn't be completely against there being another "black Thursday"

Lets face it, the politicans will never be put into jail and the bankers will get away, there won't be a massive revolt here where the people will get Brian Cowen and make sure he pays for it. ie give him 30+ years in a stinking cell where he has to slop out every morning. What I have said is probably the most likely outcome. What do people think of my proposal? We all seem to be living in fairyland in Ireland.

I think you should be on the dole. You try living on what you say we should get. Yes, it is generouse, but prices are very high in Ireland, rent, heat, electricity, gas and dont get me going on motoring costs.
I understand you feelings, but why always punish those at the bottom? Try it yourself before you put it out as a recipe of getting us out of the sh*t we are in.
The only thing that will help is to dump the bank debt, it's not our debt, we shouldn't have to pay it.

Geuze

Unemployment insurance systems compared across the OCED:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/38/16/44508994.xls


Note that many countries don't have any JSA (dole), they just have JSB.