Which Irish cities are big enough to sustain a team in the European Cup longterm ?

wexfordia

I appreciate that at present domestic football - both here in the Republic and in NI - isn't strong enough to possess such teams so I'm just speaking hypothetically. IMO only Dublin and perhaps Belfast would be big enough, ie population and football being strongest there. Agree or disagree ??

NufcNavan

What a ridiculous discussion topic.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

*Dublin if all the clubs were merged. Maybe not even then. Until people take an interest in LoI it isn't gonna happen.



*Don't want this to happen, obviously. Just hypothetical. Before I get the head took off me.;)

Paully D

To be honest, you could have a city the size of New York and there still wouldn't be a hope of an Irish side in the European Cup.

redout

Size is of absolutely no importance.

Take Villarreal, from a town with a population of just 50,000.

Currently 4th in la Liga and were playing the semi-finals of both the UEFA Cup and Champions league in recent seasons.

Gavin "shels"

First off you'd need a country with football fans.

Gavin "shels"

Is that you Martin Cullen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0mEv4tPekI

dreamers75

We were best placed with stupid money 3 rounds of Europa League twice in a row. Shamrock Rovers now best placed to get the holy grail (Europa League group stages) but problem from a footballing perpective is they got the best players in Ireland to win football matches in ireland not to win EC matches.

Fulltime football and the money to pay for it earned from actual income and we would have broke that duck years ago. A lot of expectation on Rovers this year same as bohs last year tho

flahavaj

First person to use the "b" word gets a prize.

wexfordia

Gavin shels wrote: »

Is that you Martin Cullen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0mEv4tPekI

Yes it's me. Martin Cullen that is. I have plenty of e-voting machines if anyone wants them.

wexfordia

flahavaj wrote: »

First person to use the "b" word gets a prize.

This 'b' word by any chance ?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Barstooler

IRISHSPORTSGUY

Paully D wrote: »

To be honest, you could have a city the size of New York and there still wouldn't be a hope of an Irish side in the European Cup.

The Winner's route has made things so much easier. I have a good feeling about Rovers this year, I think they're better than the Bohs team of 2 years that came within 5 minutes of knocking out the Austrian champions.

I wouldn't say Rovers are considerably worse than, say, Debrecen, Zilina and the ilk. A kind draw and who knows? If they make the group stages of the CL it would be such a glorious and historical occassion for football in this country.

Cypher_sounds

wexfordia wrote: »

This 'b' word by any chance ?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Barstooler

Lots and lots of them to be found on here, its hilarious really.

NufcNavan

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

I wouldn't say Rovers are considerably worse than, say, Debrecen, Zilina and the ilk.

But they are.

I'm a LOI fan btw before anyone gets on my case.

dreamers75

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

I wouldn't say Rovers are considerably worse than, say, Debrecen, Zilina and the ilk. A kind draw and who knows? If they make the group stages of the CL it would be such a glorious and historical occassion for football in this country.

uhh should they not aim for EL group stages a much more possible route?

The new Cl lineup makes it possible but still you gonna get a fulltime team that are champions.

NufcNavan

dreamers75 wrote: »

uhh should they not aim for EL group stages a much more possible route?

The new Cl lineup makes it possible but still you gonna get a fulltime team that are champions.

Shamrock Rovers are effectivly full time, but you are right though.

dreamers75

NufcNavan wrote: »

Shamrock Rovers are effectivly full time, but you are right though.

No we have had this discussion with the rovers fans, we had differing opinions of fulltime.

My opinion was training 4 times a week, theirs was wages based.

Still dont see them getting past 2 rounds tho, just not enough technical players.

dfx-

Paully D wrote: »

To be honest, you could have a city the size of New York and there still wouldn't be a hope of an Irish side in the European Cup.

The size of the city must be what is holding Sligo back - I know it couldn't be the football. That's the best in the world, don't you know..

dreamers75

dfx- wrote: »

The size of the city must be what is holding Sligo back - I know it couldn't be the football. That's the best in the world, don't you know..

Cmon i read your forum your getting cocky about the CL, almost Zimbru cocky. You did well vs juve, we did well vs Celtic, we expected to beat some Moldovan team after their 1st 3 shots on goal we thought otherwise

This league has the awesome vicious circles mode firmly locked in

Paully D

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

The Winner's route has made things so much easier. I have a good feeling about Rovers this year, I think they're better than the Bohs team of 2 years that came within 5 minutes of knocking out the Austrian champions.

I wouldn't say Rovers are considerably worse than, say, Debrecen, Zilina and the ilk. A kind draw and who knows? If they make the group stages of the CL it would be such a glorious and historical occassion for football in this country.

Don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely love to see it, but I just don't think it will happen.

gustavo

dfx- wrote: »

The size of the city must be what is holding Sligo back - I know it couldn't be the football. That's the best in the world, don't you know..

Didn't expect us to get a mention in this thread but its nice to know the shamrock fans are thinking about us

mike65

The only way to get an Irish team into Europe beyond the qualifiers more than once would be through big investment and the new UEFA fair play rules probably forbid that.
Also if it did happen (making CL group) the riches that would accrue would completely unbalance the domestic game.

stumpypeeps

If football had the calibre of people involved that are currently involved in GAA it might have a chance. As it is, the whole thing seems to me hap hazard and corrupt.

I'm like a sizable part of the country in that I wouldn't have grown up with any local team to support.

stumpypeeps

Just to add to that, I think in order to have a team equipped to play in the European cup you'd need a good league. I always point to the scandanavian leagues as a blue print. That said they probably don't have the same level of competition that football has in this country.

greendom

I don't think it could be done with a team playing in the LOI. A Milton Keynes type franchise would have to be implanted here. If Rangers and Celtic ever end up playing in the Premiership, maybe the next step would be to create an Irish franchise.

major bill

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Just to add to that, I think in order to have a team equipped to play in the European cup you'd need a good league. I always point to the scandanavian leagues as a blue print. That said they probably don't have the same level of competition that football has in this country.

In order to have a good league you need Irish people to get off their fat holes and go to a game....I understand people from rural areas that dont have a team near them but theres over 1 Million people in Dublin and the big 4 Dublin clubs can only pull in 10,000 between them and 5/6 of that is usually from Rovers.

I think Rovers could win a round and maybe make a go of it in Europa Champions league group stages is way beyond reach.

greendom

major bill wrote: »

In order to have a good league you need Irish people to get off their fat holes and go to a game....I understand people from rural areas that dont have a team near them but theres over 1 Million people in Dublin and the big 4 Dublin clubs can only pull in 10,000 between them and 5/6 of that is usually from Rovers.

I think Rovers could win a round and maybe make a go of it in Europa Champions league group stages is way beyond reach.

I remember seeing a stat showing the proportion of population who attended top flight league games in Europe. Ireland was certainly one of the highest attended. This was from about 4 years ago. Attendance figures may have dropped since then I suppose.

stumpypeeps

major bill wrote: »

In order to have a good league you need Irish people to get off their fat holes and go to a game....I understand people from rural areas that dont have a team near them but theres over 1 Million people in Dublin and the big 4 Dublin clubs can only pull in 10,000 between them and 5/6 of that is usually from Rovers.

I think Rovers could win a round and maybe make a go of it in Europa Champions league group stages is way beyond reach.

You have to look at people as consumers. You have to provide them with a product that attracts them and others. If you look at the way Leinster and Munster have attracted fans over the last number of years, perhaps football can take some ideas.

To me from the outside it seems as if a lot of LOI fans feel a certain sense of betrayal that so called barstoolers won't come to LoI games. Well that attitude in itself is not going to convince anyone. The games need to be sold to them.

I'm really not sure what the answer is. Perhaps a concerted effort to play a brand of attacking football. A re branding of teams. A focus on community involvement. Once you can get them in and involved it might be easier to keep them. Once they're invested in the team.

For my part, been in Bray a while now. I'm going to head to a few wanderers games.

Pauleta

stumpypeeps wrote: »

If football had the calibre of people involved that are currently involved in GAA it might have a chance. As it is, the whole thing seems to me hap hazard and corrupt.

I'm like a sizable part of the country in that I wouldn't have grown up with any local team to support.

The only way that the GAA get away with looking well run is that they are the only GAA association. If GAA was a world wide thing, the Irish branch would be exposed for joke that it is.

stumpypeeps

Pauleta wrote: »

The only way that the GAA get away with looking well run is that they are the only GAA association. If GAA was a world wide thing, the Irish branch would be exposed for joke that it is.

I think its particularly impressive that almost every single parish in the country has a well run club with all the practice facilities needed.

CiaranC

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I think its particularly impressive that almost every single parish in the country has a well run club with all the practice facilities needed.

What has that got to do with the topic? Who gives a toss about the poxy gah.

No chance of Rovers qualifying for the Champions League barring some kind of miracle in the draw. We'd need to be pulling in another 5000 punters a week to be able to afford a sustainable run at it.

stumpypeeps

CiaranC wrote: »

What has that got to do with the topic? Who gives a toss about the poxy gah.

No chance of Rovers qualifying for the Champions League barring some kind of miracle in the draw. We'd need to be pulling in another 5000 punters a week to be able to afford a sustainable run at it.

About one million members up and down the country apparently. If the FAI had that kind of membership Ireland might have a league capable of having a team in the Champions league every season.

Maybe football in this country should look at building from the grass roots up. Instead of looking for a short term influx of fans.

CiaranC

stumpypeeps wrote: »

About one million members up and down the country apparently. If the FAI had that kind of membership Ireland might have a league capable of having a team in the Champions league every season.

Maybe football in this country should look at building from the grass roots up. Instead of looking for a short term influx of fans.

More people are involved in football than gah, and most GAA "members" are only interested in sitting in their taxpayer funded clubhouse watching Man Utd and Celtic on the television. Just another bunch of barstool sportsfans.

The people who would normally be football fans in other countries dont follow our club teams to any meaningful extent, so it is impossible for us to contemplate competing at the top level in Europe.

Rovers have built from the grassroots up btw, as have Pats among others.

stumpypeeps

CiaranC wrote: »

More people are involved in football than gah, and most GAA "members" are only interested in sitting in their taxpayer funded clubhouse watching Man Utd and Celtic on the television. Just another bunch of barstool sportsfans.

The people who would normally be football fans in other countries dont follow our club teams to any meaningful extent, so it is impossible for us to contemplate competing at the top level in Europe.

Rovers have built from the grassroots up btw, as have Pats among others.

I don't know where to begin with that. I haven't seen that level of ignorance displayed in a while.

As for the grass roots aspect of football in this country, I don't think its been a success. I think it could be better. It'd be brilliant if we had a league where some of our better players playing in the lower leagues in England could come home and play here and make a living.

CiaranC

stumpypeeps wrote: »

As for the grass roots aspect of football in this country, I don't think its been a success. I think it could be better. It'd be brilliant if we had a league where some of our better players playing in the lower leagues in England could come home and play here and make a living.

How do you suggest we pay for this?

This stupid nonsense from people who have no clue about the game here gets really irritating.

stumpypeeps

CiaranC wrote: »

How do you suggest we pay for this?

Attendances. Obviously everything depends on getting people to go to games.

Scotland and Denmark have similar populations to Ireland. They seem to be able to get it to work.

And as you said there's more people playing football in Ireland than any other sport.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

CiaranC wrote: »

What has that got to do with the topic? Who gives a toss about the poxy gah.

If the LoI was ever to be successful they'd need to be as big as the GAA. Say all you want that more play football than GAA, doesn't make a difference because every county has a team, every town has a team, almost every fcuking parish has a team. That's why people are so interested and involved and that's why 70,000+ people go to Croke Park at the end of every summer.
Only 14 counties have a team in the Premier Division and one of them is in the North. Of the 21 teams that play in those divisions 8 of them are from Louth, Dublin and Wicklow. A fairly small area on the whole. Over third of the teams in the league are from this area. There's no team between Kilkenny, Carlow, Laois, Kildare, Meath, Offaly and Tipperary, how can that be justified?

/rant

stumpypeeps

CiaranC wrote: »

This stupid nonsense from people who have no clue about the game here gets really irritating.

Oh I didn't realise you needed to attend games every week to understand a hugely complex issue like this. The LOI is safer in the hands of people who understand it like you. Thats why its such a roaring success at the minute.

mike65

CiaranC wrote: »

More people are involved in football than gah, and most GAA "members" are only interested in sitting in their taxpayer funded clubhouse watching Man Utd and Celtic on the television. Just another bunch of barstool sportsfans.

Don't let your contempt get the way of common sense eh? While there is no official head count it would seem reasonable to reckon active GAA team players and match attendees out number football players and matchday supporters by up to 10 to 1.

flahavaj

CiaranC wrote: »

More people are involved in football than gah, and most GAA "members" are only interested in sitting in their taxpayer funded clubhouse watching Man Utd and Celtic on the television. Just another bunch of barstoolers rabble rabble.....

CiaranC

baz2009 wrote: »

If the LoI was ever to be successful they'd need to be as big as the GAA. Say all you want that more play football than GAA, doesn't make a difference because every county has a team, every town has a team, almost every fcuking parish has a team. That's why people are so interested and involved and that's why 70,000+ people go to Croke Park at the end of every summer.

The GAA are haemorrhaging money at every level. Less than 10% of intercounty games are profitable for them. Hurling is almost extinct. Dont buy into the propaganda. The main reason they appear to do so well is that they get political and financial backing that football can only dream of. They are not an example to follow.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/hurling-dying-on-its-feet-as-apathy-takes-firm-hold-2577562.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0309/1224291668594.html

Only 14 counties have a team in the Premier Division and one of them is in the North. Of the 21 teams that play in those divisions 8 of them are from Louth, Dublin and Wicklow. A fairly small area on the whole. Over third of the teams in the league are from this area. There's no team between Kilkenny, Carlow, Laois, Kildare, Meath, Offaly and Tipperary, how can that be justified?

Kilkenny City and Kildare County both went under in the last few years due to lack of interest in that area. Its a complete fallacy to suggest that putting a LOI club where one doesnt exist will mean people will suddenly turn into traditional football fans. The culture doesnt exist in these places.

stumpypeeps wrote:

The LOI is safer in the hands of people who understand it like you. Thats why its such a roaring success at the minute.

My club is a success, we, as fans and owners of the club, run it in a sustainable manner. I only have to look at the end of year accounts to see why Champions League qualification is a complete non-runner, even for Irelands most successful football club.

flahavaj

CiaranC wrote: »

The GAA are haemorrhaging money at every level. Less than 10% of intercounty games are profitable for them. Hurling is almost extinct. Dont buy into the propaganda. The main reason they appear to do so well is that they get political and financial backing that football can only dream of. They are not an example to follow.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/hurling-dying-on-its-feet-as-apathy-takes-firm-hold-2577562.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0309/1224291668594.html

Ah now in fairness a league game in the off-season for inter-county GAA is hardly a good barometer that hurlking is dying a death. The same two teams filled Croke Park in consecutive Septembers the last two years in the two greatest games I've personally ever seen.

Hurling will always be limited to certain hot spots in the country. If anything it has expanded since the days when Cork/Tipp/KK would dominate the landscape. It will always be confined to 8-9 counties at the top level. But look at the strides the sport is making in Dublin, its popularity has soared in recent years. Hurling is far from dying on its feet in all fairness. Attendances are certainly down for all GAA games since the recession hit.

Drawing a comparison between a league game in March between two teams that would both be regarding the game as a warm up for the real business of the Summer and a soccer league game isn't entirely justified. Rovers should be congratukated for generating such an attendance alright, fair play. But using it to claim some kind of victory over the GAA is kinda small-time. Why not let the GAA worry about themselves ane ye continue to do the good work ye are doing in Tallaght?

shanec1928

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Attendances. Obviously everything depends on getting people to go to games.

Scotland and Denmark have similar populations to Ireland. They seem to be able to get it to work.

And as you said there's more people playing football in Ireland than any other sport.

what other sports do they have to compete with? it doesn't help that our country is full of west brits who are to happy to support foreign teams while quality local football is being played, these are the people who are ignorant the only way you will get them to their local club is if you get a friendly with a premiership club or what ever club Roy Keane is managing, then they will be creaming them self s to see their club that's the English one btw

stumpypeeps

Its a little disingenuous comparing attendances of GAA league games in Feb to LOI games in the proper season.

Hurling is returning to its traditional strongholds sadly, although its making massive strides in Dublin.

Complaining about the funding received smacks of the kind of ignorance that surrounds people from Dublin. If you consider the kind of role a GAA club plays to so many parishes in isolated communities throughout Ireland and not just in Dublin, any funding they receive is justified.



I'll still go to some Bray Wanderers games, I just hope I won't be met with the same level of bitterness there.

Mushy

forza rovers wrote: »

what other sports do they have to compete with? it doesn't help that our country is full of west brits who are to happy to support foreign teams while quality local football is being played, these are the people who are ignorant the only way you will get them to their local club is if you get a friendly with a premiership club or what ever club Roy Keane is managing, then they will be creaming them self s to see their club that's the English one btw

I cant understand why ye complain about attendances and then call people ignorant. With that attitude it doesn't exactly entice people to go. Try promoting the game rather than lambasting those who dont go.

stumpypeeps

forza rovers wrote: »

what other sports do they have to compete with? it doesn't help that our country is full of west brits who are to happy to support foreign teams while quality local football is being played, these are the people who are ignorant the only way you will get them to their local club is if you get a friendly with a premiership club or what ever club Roy Keane is managing, then they will be creaming them self s to see their club that's the English one btw

What percentage of the population has a local club?

jesus_thats_gre

Why oh whymdo I keep seeing LoL every time I see LoI

Mushy

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Why oh whymdo I keep seeing LoL every time I see LoI

And to balance out my last post, go to a match and see what its like. I did last Friday(albeit with long standing intentions) and enjoyed it. Maybe you would too?

Ebbs

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Maybe football in this country should look at building from the grass roots up. Instead of looking for a short term influx of fans.

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Attendances. Obviously everything depends on getting people to go to games.

You answered your own question here. We cant build from grass roots if we do not get high attendances, and the way of getting high attendances is building from grass roots.

We, unlike the GAA, are not government funded. The FAI makes club compete at a loss. First division clubs have to win the league in order to break even from the money they have to pay the FAI to compete, or something crazy like that. If we had the same investment and political backing as the GAA, we'd be just as successful.

stumpypeeps wrote: »

As for the grass roots aspect of football in this country, I don't think its been a success. I think it could be better. It'd be brilliant if we had a league where some of our better players playing in the lower leagues in England could come home and play here and make a living.

Grass roots over here is huge. Look at the DDSL etc, 1000s of kids playing around the country each week. The level of involvement from parents and such is top notch. What we do not have is the money to better these kids. In successful football countries the coaches are not the left backs dad who once kicked a ball when he was 10, they are trained professionals. They come with certs in coaching, development, basic physio etc.

This is the reason why we are not successful. Its hard to compete with kids who have been pruned by top notch coaches since they were 12, ones who are on sporting diets since then and who train nearly as much as our LoI clubs do.

Another point about the GAA, which someone brought up here, is that they have nothing to be compared to. They are the best at what they do, because no one else does it. Their organisations run at a loss, they are sort of the Sporting Fingal of the LoI. Not sustainable on their own, not going to make money, but with the huge cash injection and backing are do very well. If each county board was broken off, and had to compete finacially on their own there would be a lot of them dropping off the map id imagine.

parker kent

forza rovers wrote: »

what other sports do they have to compete with? it doesn't help that our country is full of west brits who are to happy to support foreign teams while quality local football is being played, these are the people who are ignorant the only way you will get them to their local club is if you get a friendly with a premiership club or what ever club Roy Keane is managing, then they will be creaming them self s to see their club that's the English one btw

This post is like the perfect storm of LoI fury. West Brits? Check. Premier League? Check. Roy Keane? Check? Ignorance of wider issues? Check? Lack of knowledge? Check.

By the way Denmark is a country with thriving winter sports amongst others. So they have other sports to compete with in Denmark.

Plus Danish girls are magnificently beautiful, so getting any man to leave his house is a job well done :pac:

Oh and the people comparing a league game in the GAA with a full season LoI game aren't helping their argument. For a soccer league in Ireland to gain true traction, it would have to represent everywhere in Ireland. Having half the country without a team does not help that. Nor do the fans of existing teams who want to mock and belittle non-fans.

For the record, I'm from Wicklow and go to Bray Wanderers. But for "proper" local feeling, my local GAA club and the Wicklow inter county teams are where my heart lays. The fact that you can join a club at 10 and one day play in an All Ireland Final with that club highlights why so many people feel more attached to the GAA. Youth soccer in Ireland plays little to no bearing on the LoI. That should be changed for starters.

stumpypeeps

Ebbs wrote: »

You answered your own question here. We cant build from grass roots if we do not get high attendances, and the way of getting high attendances is building from grass roots.

We, unlike the GAA, are not government funded. The FAI makes club compete at a loss. First division clubs have to win the league in order to break even from the money they have to pay the FAI to compete, or something crazy like that. If we had the same investment and political backing as the GAA, we'd be just as successful.





Grass roots over here is huge. Look at the DDSL etc, 1000s of kids playing around the country each week. The level of involvement from parents and such is top notch. What we do not have is the money to better these kids. In successful football countries the coaches are not the left backs dad who once kicked a ball when he was 10, they are trained professionals. They come with certs in coaching, development, basic physio etc.

This is the reason why we are not successful. Its hard to compete with kids who have been pruned by top notch coaches since they were 12, ones who are on sporting diets since then and who train nearly as much as our LoI clubs do.

Another point about the GAA, which someone brought up here, is that they have nothing to be compared to. They are the best at what they do, because no one else does it. Their organisations run at a loss, they are sort of the Sporting Fingal of the LoI. Not sustainable on their own, not going to make money, but with the huge cash injection and backing are do very well. If each county board was broken off, and had to compete finacially on their own there would be a lot of them dropping off the map id imagine.

So the FAI receive no funding? As for the GAA, I don't think it was established to make profits. Afterall its an amateur organisation. That said they do bring in €25 million a year in gate receipts I think. Must go some way to paying its way.

The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Mr Martin Cullen TD, today announced a package of €9.9 million to support the work of the major field sports in developing their games around the country. The Irish Sports Council will support extensive participation programmes with €3.29 million for the GAA, €3.5 million for the FAI and €3.07 million for the IRFU