Let the race to the bottom begin

whiteonion

It seems that people are getting so desperate for work that they are willing to work free. I've heard of these people before, they like to call themselves "interns". I prefer to call them suckers.
http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/25/unpaid-jobs-the-new-normal/

What kind of desperation can lead people to work for nothing? They would lose money by transporting themselves to and from work. This can not lead to anything good, if allowed to continue our wages and our standard of living will drop to third world levels?

Let the race to the bottom begin!

ThisRegard

Two people come in for an interview for a paid vacancy I'm looking to fill. One sat on his hole all day. The other used initiative in finding something to keep themselves busy plus also build up experience in said area. The second person has a huge advantage before I even start the interview.

whiteonion

ThisRegard wrote: »

Two people come in for an interview for a paid vacancy I'm looking to fill. One sat on his hole all day. The other used initiative in finding something to keep themselves busy plus also build up experience in said area. The second person has a huge advantage before I even start the interview.

If you give the employer the impression that you're a sucker that can be taken advantage of this is exactly what will happen. Should we in the West become "more competitive" by working for less than the Indians and the Chinese?

ThisRegard

Nothing to do with east or west, it's down to if I get the job with the experience and initiative I showed or the person across the street gets it.

No need to quote me there either, there was only one reply to your post.

clewis

What I don't get is how the person in the article said she felt working for free gave her a sense of purpose, and she felt relevant. If I were to end up working for free I'd feel the opposite, I'd feel worthless, as that's in effect what I would be as the "employer/slave-master" wouldn't see me as being worth paying, I can't think of anything that would lower my self-esteem more, knowing I was working full-time and getting nothing for it, the feeling of anger at being exploited alone would drive me crazy.
I know some people who have done those FAS schemes in the hope that the experience they'd gain would get them a paid job, in all cases it didn't work out, nine months later they were back doing nothing, and in some cases, the company just got a new free worker straight away.
I"d have no problem doing an actual internship where I'd actually benefit from it and someones going to show me the ropes and how to do an area of work where I've no experience, but allowing myself to be exploited in order to allow someone else to get free labour is another story. And of course, if these working for free schemes get any more popular, than no-one's going to ever get a job, why would you when companies can just get free workers.
It's amazing how so many employers are in favour of this and act like they're doing people a favour by "doing them the favour" of "letting" them work or free, all in the name of gaining experience. I don't know how these people sleep at night knowing how they're exploiting these people.

Denerick

It annoys me too OP. In reality its a middle class protection racket; nobody who doesn't both live with their parents and/or receives generous allowances can afford to live for free. Its a disgusting glass ceiling that automatically excludes equally qualified and talented people merely on the basis of their family means.

micdug

None of you get it do you? Same as the argument about minimum wage.
You don't work for nothing for ever. Neither do you stay on the Minimum wage forever unless you choose to. You join at the bottom and work your way up.

A person doing an internship is doing it to gain experiance i.e. the employer is spending time and effort training the employee, and giving them far superior training to what is available in College. After their internship they become eminently more employable and will thus find it easier to get jobs and get paid more. I've had interns (college grads) and spent as much time training them as they have benefited myself or organisation. All of them got great jobs in the company and in other companies based on the internship.

The only sucker/fools around are you guys who sit around on your asses expecting to be paid by an employer for training on their time.

This "race to the bottom" s***e the unions have spread is exactly that. Somehow Unions believe that Oirish workers who do the exact (or inferior) job as a Chinese or Indian worker have some sort of god given right to earn 100 times more because they are Irish. This has led to the death of the Irish Manufacturing sector because the Irish Consumer, like every other consumer, buys the cheapest product, not because it was made in Mullingar.

In any case you have not read the article - the people in the cases are looking to change their career - from being a manager in Starbucks to becoming a Marketing Exec. The article clearly points out that in the US (as here) the primary benificary of the scheme is the intern and not the company. In another case the intern became president of the company (a startup).

No company is going to have an internship longer then a year so all your arguments about working for free forever are null. If you don't get taken on you either did not work out or the employer simply does not have the work/money to hire. Either way you have 9 months more experiance and are 9 months more employable than if you hadn't done the experiance. All at expence for the employer (who pays for office, computer, time of staff spent training you up etc etc)

As an FYI guys, business is not a charity. If you think you could be a much better, ethical employer off you go? Well? what are you waiting for? Didn't think so. Enjoy watching daytime TV instead.

greendom

It's exploitation pure and simple. Employers exploiting the unemployed due to the state of the economy currently.

"People who work for free are far hungrier than anybody who has a salary, so they're going to outperform, they're going to try to please, they're going to be creative,"

In the last three years, Fallis has used about 50 unpaid interns for duties in marketing, editorial, advertising, sales, account management and public relations. She's convinced it's the wave of the future in human resources. "Ten years from now, this is going to be the norm," she says."

Sickening

greendom

micdug wrote: »

As an FYI guys, business is not a charity. If you think you could be a much better, ethical employer off you go? Well? what are you waiting for? Didn't think so. Enjoy watching daytime TV instead.

Ok business is not a charity, fair enough. So why do they deserve to be treated like a charity by their putative employees ?

markpb

Someone I know graduated with a business degree in 2008 just when things were getting bad. He interviewed with loads of companies but didn't get anywhere for a very long time. Eventually he was accepted into a 9 month WPP with a German investment bank. After six months, he finally got more interviews and was offered a job by both another bank and his WPP bank. The starting salary that he accepted was 30k with 30 days annual leave, healthcare and pension. If that's a race to the bottom, things aren't so bad.

greendom

One editor and two cameramen ended up quitting before the end of the trek due to rough conditions and 16-hour workdays. In retrospect, Lovejoy says, "I would screen a little bit better and make sure they understood that this wasn't a vacation."

Another quote from the article here. And maybe if he had paid them properly they would be more prepared to work 16 hour days

greendom

Or maybe I'm just getting my knickers in a twist and this is just an April Fool's joke released a few days early ?

After all this is one of the sub-headings

The challenges of hiring and managing modern day serfs

StupidLikeAFox

In fairness its market economics. If someone goes into it to gain experience they know what they are putting in and what they are getting out of it. Its not exploitaion when you apply for the job yourself.

chillywilly

It really depends what way you look at it:

1. Gain experience, knowledge, training, contacts and possible job at the end of the internship.

or

2. Working for free for no reason, im a sucker, they are exploiting me, im being taken advantage of.

I am in the (slow) process of starting up a business. So at the moment I'm working part time but I am also applying to work for free in the same industry in which my business will be in. I am doing this as I know that the experience and knowledge of working in this industry for free will be a massive advantage when I set up my own business and will lead to me being paid(paying myself) It's how we perceive things and how we are willing to use opportunites to our advantage.

micdug

greendom wrote: »

Ok business is not a charity, fair enough. So why do they deserve to be treated like a charity by their putative employees ?

Because they are getting real world experiance & training in return to the value of, if not exceeded, their contribution to the business. And from this they well be closer to getting a well paid job.

wmpdd3

I think internships do work in certain business' esp if someone has a Business degree and is trying to get in to fashion.

But in the Wwp listings there are stand alone shops looking for a manager for 9 months...

Sales assistants, waitress', this is taking the pi55.

I would expect if I was doing an internship to be given a development plan ang a mentor. If you are just thrown onto the shop floor, re evaluate what you are going to achieve in 9 months.

chillywilly

Yeah I do agree some of them Fas "internships" are taking the piss. Blatant free labour.

peasant

chillywilly wrote: »

Yeah I do agree some of them Fas "internships" are taking the piss. Blatant free labour.

worse actually ...publicly sanctioned black market economy ...funded by the taxpayer

chillywilly

peasant wrote: »

worse actually ...publicly sanctioned black market economy ...funded by the taxpayer

True

greendom

I can accept that in some instances, there are ethical employers out there who would have the interests of the unpaid employee who for genuine reasons cannot afford to take on new staff but who provide opportunities for learning and development for people who would otherwise be on the dole.

i imagine though that in the majority of cases the unpaid employee will just be there to improve the bottom line.

I wonder how many of these firms providing such opportunities would be happy to hand over some of their net profit at the end of the year to any employees who worked for nothing ?

ongarboy

clewis wrote: »

What I don't get is how the person in the article said she felt working for free gave her a sense of purpose, and she felt relevant. If I were to end up working for free I'd feel the opposite, I'd feel worthless, as that's in effect what I would be as the "employer/slave-master" wouldn't see me as being worth paying, I can't think of anything that would lower my self-esteem more, knowing I was working full-time and getting nothing for it, the feeling of anger at being exploited alone would drive me crazy.
.

That implies that anyone who volunteers for charities must feel dreadful and worthless because they don't get paid for the hard work that they do. Funny though, anyone I know who work unpaid for charities and who volunteer feel a great sense of achievement, happiness and self worth.

I know it's different working unpaid for a profit oriented organisation but I would still opt for that if I felt I was gaining experience that I could add to my CV. It means you have something to get up for in the mornings - to me that is a sense of purpose and fulfillment. Lying in bed til midday with no reason to get up or even get dressed or laying on the couch at home, eating crisps and watching daytime TV/dvds all day and knowing you'll be doing the exact same thing tomorrow and everyday with no distinction between week days and weekends - now that to me is truly depressing and would give me a sense of worthlessness. Give me unpaid work and experience that might lead to a paid job down the line over the soul destroying environment of idleness anyday.

seraphimvc

judging by my understanding of the culture of this country (i'm a half foreigner fyi :P), alot posts above me are actually stating the facts. i dont look at fas anymore as these WPP thingy are so depressing.

seriously tho, i mean, do these owner/bosses really have a slight piece heart for helping this country???? sometimes i really think that is the attitude of the people makes the sh!t economy today.

doolox

Youd need to make sure that the content of the workplacement was knowledge intensive and that genuine learning was taking place. I know of a care centre who take on people on work experience and they are regarded as extras to the work. The core staff still have to be there to see that the primary work is done. They are never left on their own with clients as they wouldn't have the necessary quals/experience to handle things on their own.

Where you end up taking on repetitve, non-learning tasks and responsibilities on your own with no back-up then you should be paid. Also it should be verifiiable experience, if the employer and workplace has a questionable or so-so reputation in the field of work chosen then any references or proof of experience will be scraps of paper. You need to find this out quickly to avoid unfruitful placements costing you time and money. Job-hunt and network like you are still on the dole and get a feel for how others in the chosen field regard the company/employer you are working for. Also try and get feedback on this from clients etc without being too obvious about it. Be prepared to move at short notice and stay as independent as possible without overdoing it and causing offence. It is useful to keep a diary or journal of day-to-day learnings while on the job and make as many contacts as possible, all of who can give you references if the boss turns out luke-warm....... Document all work carried out and get written feedback from all parties to be used as evidence in future job interviews of experience and knowledge gained.

It goes without saying that basic things like timekeeping, attendance etc should be kept in top form so they have noting to hold against you at reference giving time.

Denerick

Again people are overlooking the obvious. Sure, a relatively short stint as an intern may lead to a high paying job. The point is that the only people who can afford to live for free are the middle class; therefore it is an egregious glass ceiling and prejudicial against people of humbler means. Its a disgusting system really, there is no reason why the company can't pay a basic subsistence allowance (In the region of 150 euro per week) that will make the world of difference to 000s of people, boost social mobility, and eliminate the inequality of oppurtunity now in the system.

In short, take the racket out of the middle class job protection programme.

Maybe the real question we need to ask is whether these companies, and the middle class people who design their internship policies, really want a busload of plebs invading their companies, talking about dog racing, and generally being loutish and proletarian?

experiMental

This debate for unpaid work placements has been going on for years. I still haven't seen a resolution for it, since it's still going on.

It makes me a bit worried, because to get a job done, you sometimes have to make a resolution in a very subjective argument and make it fast. It took me 9 years to get a citizenship in this country, so if it took that long for paper-pushers to make a decision, then when will this debate ever be solved by the government?

If the job is paid, then chances are that a lot of people are willing to pay for it to get it done. However, if it's not, then the job involves either something that very few want to pay for or something that is completely new. In the latter case, there's a lot of innovation going on in Ireland, so many companies are taking risks into areas that many people are not prepared for. It's quite understandable why there are a lot of unpaid internships, because the business owners don't want to take huge risks by paying wages for jobs that may not be completed.

Some placements that are unpaid are either in sectors that are extremely subjective or are not really necessary for society. That FAS thing is a separate matter, I'm talking about unpaid internships such as working for a company that sets up a series of fashion labels targeted at rich upper-class people only. If you'll look at the broad picture in the world, you'll definitely question the real outcome of these internships. Some work involves fulfilling a manager's crazy idea, and nothing more. Sure, you're getting experience, but what if there is a drastic change in society or an industrial practice, that might make a job obsolete?

On the other hand, if the guy who is proposing an unpaid internship has a really great and beneficial idea but just doesn't have the money to pay you, why complain? If there is a definitely beneficial outcome in this internship, there is a point of taking it on. Why not negotiate about working less hours than he proposes, but still try to do the job that he wants to get done?

I can't think 20 years ahead, but I can definitely propose the next step in the resolution of this whole "unpaid labour" debate:
1) look at the global situation. Look at the sector that the internship is in. If the work is not paid, then you have to find what's the real benefit to it.
2.) If you don't see the benefit, then don't apply for a sake of getting the job, no matter how much you're enticed into applying. Some jobs are not worth doing, and people don't deserve any unpaid help for their half-baked ideas. If a person is a boss, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is right.

clewis

ongarboy wrote: »

That implies that anyone who volunteers for charities must feel dreadful and worthless because they don't get paid for the hard work that they do. Funny though, anyone I know who work unpaid for charities and who volunteer feel a great sense of achievement, happiness and self worth.

I know it's different working unpaid for a profit oriented organisation

Well yeah, volunteering for a charity is of course different than working unpaid for a profit orientated organisation, it's very very different, so different that you really can't compare the two at all. Volunteering for a charity means you're doing something to help people that probably otherwise wouldn't be done and of course, the main difference, no-one is making money from you (most of the time).
As I said in my first post, I'd have no problem working for free for one or two months to get experience in an area as long as the internship really did benefit me and it wasn't a case that I was being just used for free labour. But that's the problem, lots of employers just use it to get entry level staff to do basic admin work and dress that up as "gaining valuable experience". If the job you're going to be doing on a work placement doesn't require that much training and it's a case that you show up on your first day, are shown a computer and told get on with it, then it's probably not worth your while, as you're not learning anything. If on the other hand, the employer is willing to take time out, show you how to do stuff you don't know how to do, then maybe it is probably worth it. I'm not against working for free full-stop but I am against employeers using it as an excuse to get free labour and exploiting people.

Mr. Loverman

I think the young folks who read this website don't realise how useless new employees are.

As an employer who has used interns in the past, I lose money by giving them a job. It is not worth it.

You need to accept you are not valuable unless you know what you're doing, i.e. have relevant experience.

NinjaTruncs

whiteonion wrote: »

If you give the employer the impression that you're a sucker that can be taken advantage of this is exactly what will happen. Should we in the West become "more competitive" by working for less than the Indians and the Chinese?

Should you give your employer (or future employer) the impression you are a useless feck you will never get or keep a job. So what do you want a job where you tell your boss what you are willing to do for the money they pay you?

Sheensie

Hi All,

I'm currently researching an article on unemployment, internships and work placements. I'm really interested in speaking to anyone who has had experience of doing an unpaid internship. I'm also very interested in speaking to employers who take on unpaid interns and/or accommodate FAS WPP applicants.


Please PM me if you'd like to chat with me about your experiences and I'll give you my contact details and further information. Look forward to hearing from you!

Thanks

okiss

I have looked at the work placement jobs fas are advertising - some are looking for people with degrees and work experience in other words good and cheap spring to mind. Some of the jobs are for office's and shops where the chance of something leading to paid long term employment are not high. At one time once you got a low paying job, worked hard, gained skills and did some course's you could move on to a better job if you wished. During the past few years before the end of the boom you could easily change jobs but that is no longer the case. Employers know this and the wpp is being used as a form of cheap workers for employers. I feel in many cases this not leading to any long term prospect for the person working. The wpp is being use by welfare to make the jobless figures look better and to say look at us we are helping people when at the moment employers are looking at cutting costs and letting staff go.
I know of one person who due to personal reasons would not have as much work experience of some of there age and qualifications was advised by fas not to take wpp as it was just taking advantage of people who are looking for work.

yosemite_sam

whiteonion wrote: »

It seems that people are getting so desperate for work that they are willing to work free. I've heard of these people before, they like to call themselves "interns". I prefer to call them suckers.
http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/25/unpaid-jobs-the-new-normal/

What kind of desperation can lead people to work for nothing? They would lose money by transporting themselves to and from work. This can not lead to anything good, if allowed to continue our wages and our standard of living will drop to third world levels?

Let the race to the bottom begin!

People who want to get ahead, they are to be admired. It is these sort of people who will get this Country out of the mess it's in