Is it racist?

caseyann

I was listening to the radio today,and they were talking about this.
Garda or immigration officers asking people for passports in airports on the streets etc.. due to colour.
Now some people i heard were saying things such as,they shouldn't be allowed to do this as its racist.
I disagree,and i have seen them do this in all other countries ,to catch out illegals.Nothing racist about it.
I believe it also is a rare thing to happen,but people make out it is happening all the time.
Garda do this to everyone,stop Irish on street and search their pockets just because they are looking for possible drugs etc..
So why shouldnt they be allowed stop people in street or at airport and double check them.
Is it just because they are different coloured skin they think they should be immune under the false accusation of people are being racist.
I think the racism card is being spun way to much now.
I say no they arent being racist,they are just doing their jobs.

jumpin jaysus

they stop group of young lads on the streets all the time and people dont bat an eyelid. ive seen it many times even a young lad on his way home and happens to be wearing a tracksuit or a hoody or whatever and hes pulled over searched etc. but when a black person is stopped and asked to prove his entitlement to be here its racism straight away. im sick of this racism card being thrown out every time, i actually think theres more racism against white people from blac people in this country i see examples all the time.

SugarHigh

Arizona passed a bill to allow Mexicans to be targeted in the hope of reducing illegal immigrants, it caused a lot of riots. As far as I remember it simply amounted to asking people for papers and it made sense to target mexicans because the majority of illegals in the state were mexicans. It seemed pretty sensible to me.

However there is the argument that by targeting one group who typically have higher crime figures you make it far more likely that a member of that group will be caught which would exaggerate the crime figures and justify even more targeting. For example if you started stopping random black people and searching them for drugs you would obviously find more black people with drugs because you are searching more black people than white people.

MagicMarker

If a Garda stops a man because of his colour then there's certainly an element of racism there. If a Garda stops a man who looks dodgy who happens to be black, then of course that's not racism.

floggg

Its racial profiling and is wrong.

If you stop somebody purely because they are black, you are targeting them because of skin colour and that is racist.

If cops are allowed to pull somebody over without any probable cause specific to that person (rather than to his ethnic group) it is an infringement of their civil and human rights, particularly their presumption of innocence.

It will also marginalize that particular community and result in undue resentment and/or fear towards the police.

Worse still, it will institutionalise racism in the gardaí, as they will see very person of colour as a suspect rather than a citizen.

Its not the racism card being spun, its human rights, constitutional rights and common sense.

This sort of thing leads to all sorts of problems.

E.g. - the shooting of the brazilian guy in the tube on 7/7 - as an illegal immigrant, he saw the cops after him and panicked and ran. Cops saw brown person running and shot him dead.

If all immigrants are made to fear the police, they will act illogically towards them or in their presence. And if all police are made to suspect immigrants, they will react in kind.

Also, where else per chance, do you see such racial profiling? U.S.A.?

Hardly the best example of an effective police policy - just ask Amoudou Diallo!

SugarHigh

MagicMarker wrote: »

If a Garda stops a man because of his colour then there's certainly an element of racism there. If a Garda stops a man who looks dodgy who happens to be black, then of course that's not racism.

It comes down to what makes someone look dodgy. Sometimes it can be race.

If you're a Mexican in Arizona you look far more likely to be an illegal than someone of European descent. There are illegals who are European but they are outnumbered by Mexicans so isn't it a better use of resources to target them?

caseyann

MagicMarker wrote: »

If a Garda stops a man because of his colour then there's certainly an element of racism there. If a Garda stops a man who looks dodgy who happens to be black, then of course that's not racism.

Incorrect.If Garda stops someone because of their colour and asks for their id for proof right to be allowed in the country,Then it purely based on immigration and nothing more.
Or how else are they meant to target illegals.As they dont hand out home addresses.:D
If a Garda stops someone white from another country because of their accent same rule applies.They have to check.

If i was in the Australia,and i was stopped by police for having an Irish accent to check my visa or working somewhere and they came in and did a check.I would'nt be shouting discrimination and respect they have to do their job.

Bottle_of_Smoke

If taken quite literally it is racist in that they're choosing them on a basis of race

Nothing wrong with that in this circumstance.

I mean technically it is racist to say white people are more likely to get skin cancer or dark skinned people rickets . . . but if someone complained about doctors pointing that out you'd reguard them as a candidate for sectioning.

caseyann

floggg wrote: »

Its racial profiling and is wrong.

If you stop somebody purely because they are black, you are targeting them because of skin colour and that is racist.

If cops are allowed to pull somebody over without any probable cause specific to that person (rather than to his ethnic group) it is an infringement of their civil and human rights, particularly their presumption of innocence.

It will also marginalize that particular community and result in undue resentment and/or fear towards the police.

Worse still, it will institutionalise racism in the gardaí, as they will see very person of colour as a suspect rather than a citizen.

Its not the racism card being spun, its human rights, constitutional rights and common sense.

This sort of thing leads to all sorts of problems.

E.g. - the shooting of the brazilian guy in the tube on 7/7 - as an illegal immigrant, he saw the cops after him and panicked and ran. Cops saw brown person running and shot him dead.

If all immigrants are made to fear the police, they will act illogically towards them or in their presence. And if all police are made to suspect immigrants, they will react in kind.

Also, where else per chance, do you see such racial profiling? U.S.A.?

Hardly the best example of an effective police policy - just ask Amoudou Diallo!

He shouldn't have ran,god rest him and all as it was an awful thing.
You are taking it personal and its not personal its a job.
It doesn't happen that often and Garda majority do not stop people for their colour.Immigration have to deal with false passports false IDS false drivers licences.You name it its out there.
We could call it profile discrimination for people who live in bad areas aswell,when they stop young lads and search their pockets just because they are from the area or walking through it?
But people dont complain about that because they are Irish.
I highly doubt the majority of Garda are driving around and see someone black and stop them in streets because they are black or Asian or what ever.It is just random and possibly in the area looking for someone who is illegal.

caseyann

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If taken quite literally it is racist in that they're choosing them on a basis of race

Nothing wrong with that in this circumstance.

I mean technically it is racist to say white people are more likely to get skin cancer or dark skinned people rickets . . . but if someone complained about doctors pointing that out you'd reguard them as a candidate for sectioning.

Well dear god what a world we would live in if that was considered racist.:eek:
Just shut up altogether no one speak ever again

Crucifix

I'm hung up on stopping people to ask for their passports, nobody carries their passport with them wherever they go except people who are on holiday, right?

caseyann

Crucifix wrote: »

I'm hung up on stopping people to ask for their passports, nobody carries their passport with them wherever they go except people who are on holiday, right?

And people are recommended not to carry their passports even then,so they dont get stolen.
So what is the answer.
Special ID cards that everyone who is Irish or naturalized Irish have to carry, and an easy check if Garda pull them over, so they can verify over the radio such and such is in fact who they say on their id card?
But apparently from what i have heard on the radio this is the problem they arent carrying any ID at all.

jumpin jaysus

Crucifix wrote: »

I'm hung up on stopping people to ask for their passports, nobody carries their passport with them wherever they go except people who are on holiday, right?

and young people trying to get into the pub

Crucifix

jumpin jaysus wrote: »

and young people trying to get into the pub

Ha ha, I'm unfortunately passed that point in my life
If a garda asked for a look at my passport I'd laugh at them

MagicMarker

caseyann wrote: »

Incorrect.If Garda stops someone because of their colour and asks for their id for proof right to be allowed in the country,Then it purely based on immigration and nothing more.
Or how else are they meant to target illegals.As they dont hand out home addresses.:D
If a Garda stops someone white from another country because of their accent same rule applies.They have to check.

If i was in the Australia,and i was stopped by police for having an Irish accent to check my visa or working somewhere and they came in and did a check.I would'nt be shouting discrimination and respect they have to do their job.

I wasn't speaking from an immigration perspective, just regarding criminal matters.

Do guards stop random black people on the street these days to ask for passports? I wouldn't have thought so.

Standman

The way the immigration police in the UK do it is walk amongst the crowd wearing high vis and watch peoples reactions to them. If they see anyone make a deliberate attempt to avoid them or double back then they question them. I think it's fair enough.

caseyann

MagicMarker wrote: »

I wasn't speaking from an immigration perspective, just regarding criminal matters.

Do guards stop random black people on the street these days to ask for passports? I wouldn't have thought so.

Thats what the allegation was.

biscuiteater

sorry but i am white, in fact as white as your milk bottle as i have red hair, though i do colour to a lobster with a bit of sun, middle aged and probably look like your mum or gran. now every time i have been stopped by a garda i have been asked for id, ie driving licence. everytime i landed in an irish airport i have been asked for a passport. so it's bull to say it's racist. i was once asked for id for buying drink in lidl to which the husband nearly pissed himself laughing as he was behind me in the cue

Boskowski

I would certainly object to guards stopping anyone for any arbitrary reason without reasonable suspicion. And I certainly would object to being searched. To me that's like police state stuff.
I read this all the time in the papers. Is this actually legal? Can a guard search me just because he thinks I'm looking shifty?
My natural reaction to that would be, well, I think I'd tell him to eff off tbh. Same with my car and my house.

Nodin

SugarHigh wrote: »

Arizona passed a bill to allow Mexicans to be targeted in the hope of reducing illegal immigrants, it caused a lot of riots. As far as I remember it simply amounted to asking people for papers and it made sense to target mexicans because the majority of illegals in the state were mexicans. It seemed pretty sensible to me.

................

However over 30% of Arizonans are 'Hispanic', which means they face harrassment that non-hispanic citizens will not encounter. Likewise here, why should the chinese-Irish or African-Irish be under extra duress from the forces of law and order when they've broken no law?

caseyann

Boskowski wrote: »

I would certainly object to guards stopping anyone for any arbitrary reason without reasonable suspicion. And I certainly would object to being searched. To me that's like police state stuff.
I read this all the time in the papers. Is this actually legal? Can a guard search me just because he thinks I'm looking shifty?
My natural reaction to that would be, well, I think I'd tell him to eff off tbh. Same with my car and my house.

Yes he can,he can stop you in street if you are walking and ask you who you are where you are going and where you live,if they feel it is necessary.
And if you have any respect for the law you will answer the question and make it quick easy and painless and allow the Garda to move along.

Nodin wrote: »

However over 30% of Arizonans are 'Hispanic', which means they face harrassment that non-hispanic citizens will not encounter. Likewise here, why should the chinese-Irish or African-Irish be under extra duress from the forces of law and order when they've broken no law?

How do they know they haven't?
Half the people in this country from all backgrounds hardly ever get checked for criminal records as is,and unfortunately so long as the false ids and illegals and the ones who avoid deportation obstruct and break laws.There is no other way for Garda or immigration do their jobs.And those who have nothing to hide should respect that and be polite and get it sorted so its quick and painless.
There is even fake college study certificates floating around for Pakistanis and Indians and Chinese etc...
So then Garda are going to be afraid as they are now already when they have to deal with someone from another country,(If they stop them its racist) Will be the new thing? Is that what you want?

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

I was listening to the radio today,and they were talking about this.
Garda or immigration officers asking people for passports in airports on the streets etc.. due to colour.
Now some people i heard were saying things such as,they shouldn't be allowed to do this as its racist.

Its not racist, but it is wrong for a number of reasons.

It is not racist because it doesn't assume anything about the person based on their skin color (ie intelligence, violence, etc). It assumes that they are not born in Ireland, which is not a conclusion about the person themselves.

Its still wrong because it is still singling out someone based on an assumption that is not related specifically to the person themselves (which is the same reason racism is considered wrong, though again this isn't racism).

It also shows bad policing, as plenty of white people weren't born here anyway, and focusing on black people rather than a random sample decreases the odds that they will be checked.

caseyann wrote: »

Garda do this to everyone

They don't, which is the point. If they did it to everyone the samples would be random, not profiled. They should do it to everyone, as you seem to agree.

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

Its not racist, but it is wrong for a number of reasons.

It is not racist because it doesn't assume anything about the person based on their skin color (ie intelligence, violence, etc). It assumes that they are not born in Ireland, which is not a conclusion about the person themselves.

Its still wrong because it is still singling out someone based on an assumption that is not related specifically to the person themselves (which is the same reason racism is considered wrong, though again this isn't racism).

It also shows bad policing, as plenty of white people weren't born here anyway, and focusing on black people rather than a random sample decreases the odds that they will be checked.



They don't, which is the point. If they did it to everyone the samples would be random, not profiled. They should do it to everyone, as you seem to agree.

I already pointed out they do the same for accent!


Its just profiled because paranoia is saying its profiled.And they do do it to everyone Irish or not.

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

I already pointed out they do the same for accent!

And? That is profiling as well.

You seem to be missing the point here. The false assumption here isn't that they are foreign, the false assumption is that they don't have a legal right to enter the country. There are plenty of people who won't have that legal right who will be missed by this profiling.

caseyann wrote: »

Its just profiled because paranoia is saying its profiled.And they do do it to everyone Irish or not.

If they did it to everyone then this thread would be pointless.

- Is it wrong for police to single out black people?
- They don't.
- Oh, never mind.

:rolleyes:

You can't do selecting a person because they are black to everyone.

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

And? That is profiling as well.

You seem to be missing the point here. The false assumption here isn't that they are foreign, the false assumption is that they don't have a legal right to enter the country. There are plenty of people who won't have that legal right who will be missed by this profiling.



If they did it to everyone then this thread would be pointless.

- Is it wrong for police to single out black people?
- They don't.
- Oh, never mind.

:rolleyes:

You can't do selecting a person because they are black to everyone.

No its called policing!

As i said previously,if nothing to hide no reason to worry get it done and move on life isnt over and no harm done.
Funny since i said if i was in Aussie as an example and some police stopped me and asked me for id and my name.I wouldnt consider it profiling.

Why are you whining on about black people or is your only issue when its black people stopped.I know a black guy reared in Ireland all his life and never once stopped.

mikemac

Not sure if it's a good example

I used to go by bus from Belfast to Dublin most days for a few weeks for work.
On the rare occasion the gardai stop the bus by the border and ask for ID.
Meet a few of these checkpoints though you could be getting buses for years and never see them

I didn't have any ID at all except my bogger accent :pac:
Was just asked which county I was from and they were satisfied

The Fillipino couple on the bus were working and had work permits in NI but going to Dublin to catch a flight. Well that's what they said anyway. They got taken off the bus, I presume to Dundalk garda station.

I don't realy see it as racist though I'm sure some will disagree

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

No its called policing!

I think you mean bad policing.

caseyann wrote: »

As i said previously,if nothing to hide no reason to worry get it done and move on life isnt over and no harm done.

That has never been a valid reason to allow police to do anything, let alone something as dumb as general profiling.

caseyann wrote: »

Funny since i said if i was in Aussie as an example and some police stopped me and asked me for id and my name.I wouldnt consider it profiling.

What would you call it if they were stopping you because you were Australian? Random chance?

caseyann wrote: »

Why are you whining on about black people or is your only issue when its black people stopped.

Because black people being stopped in airports is the topic of this thread, something you should be aware of since you started the thread. :rolleyes:

caseyann wrote: »

I know a black guy reared in Ireland all his life and never once stopped.

And?

You are the one who suggested the police are doing this. Are you now saying they aren't doing this? If so what is the point of this thread?

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

I think you mean bad policing.



That has never been a valid reason to allow police to do anything, let alone something as dumb as general profiling.



What would you call it if they were stopping you because you were Australian? Random chance?



Because black people being stopped in airports is the topic of this thread, something you should be aware of since you started the thread. :rolleyes:



And?

You are the one who suggested the police are doing this. Are you now saying they aren't doing this? If so what is the point of this thread?

I didnt suggest they are doing it.People on the radio suggested it.And its wound out from just black people.
For someone to stop me in because i have an Irish accent on street and ask for my id or proof of visa i would call that random doesnt matter if they stopped a hundred Irish previously that day.
People just make up words like profiling to make like there is something wrong.
If i havent got a problem with it why does anyone else unless they have something to hide or dont respect that the Garda and immigration have a job to do.
And its not about black people being stopped in the airport,its about Black or Pakistani or Chinese or people with an accent being stopped on the street randomly.
I would call that doing their job.
In an airport aswell,if you have a problem with being questioned in an airport i suggest you never go to Australia or USA.They pick people that might be totally innocent and have to clear them.Its called work.

caseyann

feelingstressed wrote: »

Not sure if it's a good example

I used to go by bus from Belfast to Dublin most days for a few weeks for work.
On the rare occasion the gardai stop the bus by the border and ask for ID.
Meet a few of these checkpoints though you could be getting buses for years and never see them

I didn't have any ID at all except my bogger accent :pac:
Was just asked which county I was from and they were satisfied

The Fillipino couple on the bus were working and had work permits in NI but going to Dublin to catch a flight. Well that's what they said anyway. They got taken off the bus, I presume to Dundalk garda station.

I don't realy see it as racist though I'm sure some will disagree

That is a great example,I was coming back from England on the ferry and as the bus came off the ferry the immigration guy jumped on.He made his way down the bus and asked for id.He came to us where are you from.Dublin.Ok moved on.Then came to a Cuban person behind us traveling alone.Asked him where are you from.He said Cuba.Whats brought you to Ireland.He replied visiting a friend and bit of holiday.How long are you staying? Answer two weeks.Whats your date of birth.And he said it.And all was good.
I asked him i that annoying.He replied no its their job.

The thing is and this is the problem cant call it racist or profiling this new famous word lol as so long as there is illegals they have to check people and if its just the off chance and they find someone then they have a result.
Its a job.

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

I didnt suggest they are doing it.People on the radio suggested it.And its wound out from just black people.

Groan :rolleyes:

Your post assumed it was done and asked opinions as to whether it was considered racist or not. No point then turning around to me saying why do you keep talking about black people.

caseyann wrote: »

For someone to stop me in because i have an Irish accent on street and ask for my id or proof of visa i would call that random

Its not random, it is because you have an Irish accent, as you just said.

If the police are stopping people in the airport because they are black they are not randomly stopping people. You seem to not understand what "random" means.

caseyann wrote: »

People just make up words like profiling to make like there is something wrong.

Or what "profiling" means.

Profiling is matching someone to a particular profile they have been told to look out for, whether that be you have an Irish accent or you have black skin or you are wearing a turbin.

Whether it is bad or not is a separate issue to whether it happens. I've already given the reasons why I think it is a bad idea, but tbh we can't seem to get passed you simply understanding the concept in the first place.

caseyann wrote: »

If i havent got a problem with it why does anyone else unless they have something to hide or dont respect that the Garda and immigration have a job to do.

Is that rhetorical, or are you genuinely interested to the objections to profiling?

caseyann wrote: »

In an airport aswell,if you have a problem with being questioned in an airport i suggest you never go to Aussie or USA.

I don't have a problem being questioned in an airport.

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

Groan :rolleyes:

Your post assumed it was done and asked opinions as to whether it was considered racist or not. No point then turning around to me saying why do you keep talking about black people.



Its not random, it is because you have an Irish accent, as you just said.

If the police are stopping people in the airport because they are black they are not randomly stopping people. You seem to not understand what "random" means.



Or what "profiling" means.

Profiling is matching someone to a particular profile they have been told to look out for, whether that be you have an Irish accent or you have black skin or you are wearing a turbin.

Whether it is bad or not is a separate issue to whether it happens. I've already given the reasons why I think it is a bad idea, but tbh we can't seem to get passed you simply understanding the concept in the first place.



Is that rhetorical, or are you genuinely interested to the objections to profiling?



I don't have a problem being questioned in an airport.

No what you seem to not understand is i believe its not happening and its just random and it is not profiling and it is not a big deal and it is another excuse to moan about the evil Irish racists.More **** that is going to impeach Irish Garda from doing their jobs and catching actual illegals.
I also dont call it profiling the new word made up to make it look like an issue.

number10a

caseyann, I always try to refrain from arguing with you because your posts are so unbelieveably and invariably racist that it makes me sick. But here goes.

You think it's fine for someone to be stopped and prove their entitlement to be in this country simply because they are a particular skin colour? So, by your reasoning someone like Samantha Mumba, Ruth Negga and Paul McGrath can all be stopped and asked to prove this entitlement, even though all three are Irish. (Don't come back and say that they're famous and won't be stopped - they're just examples.) But in following such a wonderful policing method, Russians wouldn't be stopped at all and could walk around the country without a worry on their minds, just because they had the "luck" to be born white. Ukranians wouldn't need to worry, nor would Serbians, Americans, Albanians, Croatians........... and many other majority-white nationalities from outside the EU. How the hell can you think that this is acceptable? What you're actually spouting is close enough to Nazism really. Should we start stopping people who have Jewish-looking noses too? They could be from Israel and so might not have any entitlement to be here either.

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

and it is not profiling and it is not a big deal and it is another excuse to moan about the evil Irish racists.More **** that is going to impeach Irish Garda from doing their jobs and catching actual illegals.
I also dont call it profiling the new word made up to make it look like an issue.

So its not profiling and it doesn't happen but if it was happening you wouldn't call it profiling because its not an issue because it doesn't happen ... right ...

You seem some what confused about what you are actually arguing. You seem to be saying its not bad but even if it was bad it doesn't happen. That sounds all very reactionary.

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

So its not profiling but if it was you wouldn't call it profiling ... right ... :rolleyes:

Its a made up word.I dont see it as profiling and i highly doubt any other Irish person is going to take offence when people are doing their jobs.:rolleyes:

caseyann

number10a wrote: »

caseyann, I always try to refrain from arguing with you because your posts are so unbelieveably and invariably racist that it makes me sick. But here goes.

You think it's fine for someone to be stopped and prove their entitlement to be in this country simply because they are a particular skin colour? So, by your reasoning someone like Samantha Mumba, Ruth Negga and Paul McGrath can all be stopped and asked to prove this entitlement, even though all three are Irish. (Don't come back and say that they're famous and won't be stopped - they're just examples.) But in following such a wonderful policing method, Russians wouldn't be stopped at all and could walk around the country without a worry on their minds, just because they had the "luck" to be born white. Ukranians wouldn't need to worry, nor would Serbians, Americans, Albanians, Croatians........... and many other majority-white nationalities from outside the EU. How the hell can you think that this is acceptable? What you're actually spouting is close enough to Nazism really. Should we start stopping people who have Jewish-looking noses too? They could be from Israel and so might not have any entitlement to be here either.

As i said already they are not stopping these people because they are upholding the law and walking down the street.
These people who are being stopped are being stopped for a reason and now they are crying racist.
If they are stopping them they have a reason to stop them.
To the rest of your post no point in even bothering speaking as you dont know me.

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

Its a made up word.

How is it a made up word? It means to profile something.

caseyann wrote: »

I dont see it as profiling

You don't see what as profiling (which isn't a word anyway apparently)?

I though you said "it" wasn't happening in the first place?

Simple question, that might clarify something. If the police were selecting to interview just black people, would you think that was profiling?

caseyann wrote: »

and i highly doubt any other Irish person is going to take offence when people are doing their jobs.:rolleyes:

You just said they aren't doing this. Are you now saying they are doing it but there is nothing wrong with it (which is what you were originally saying)

Again your posts are rather confused.

the_syco

caseyann wrote: »

I also dont call it profiling the new word made up to make it look like an issue.

New word? Profiling has been done since before the Cold War...

caseyann wrote: »

Its a made up word.I dont see it as profiling and i highly doubt any other Irish person is going to take offence when people are doing their jobs.:rolleyes:

During the Troubles all Irish were probably assumed possible IRA by the English, so yes, I'd say they would take offence if stopped whilst working in England at that time.

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

How is it a made up word? It means to profile something.



You don't see what as profiling (which isn't a word anyway apparently)?

I though you said "it" wasn't happening in the first place?

Simple question, that might clarify something. If the police were selecting to interview just black people, would you think that was profiling?



You just said they aren't doing this. Are you now saying they are doing it but there is nothing wrong with it (which is what you were originally saying)

Again your posts are rather confused.

If they were doing it to Irish people is what i meant,Irish would not take offence to it.

Yes if they went out and went from black person to black person it would be profiling.
As it doesnt happen and is random it is not profiling.
Do you get me now?

caseyann

the_syco wrote: »

New word? Profiling has been done since before the Cold War...


During the Troubles all Irish were probably assumed possible IRA by the English, so yes, I'd say they would take offence if stopped whilst working in England at that time.

Because its so rare its random therefore is not profiling and is not racist.And it is creating the myth its happening regularly .Therefore will stick the stigma on the Garda of profiling (for doing random checks)and then they become worried and blocked in doing their jobs.
Ah the illegals and the traffickers no wonder they love Ireland.

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

Yes if they went out and went from black person to black person it would be profiling.
As it doesnt happen and is random it is not profiling.
Do you get me now?

But if it did happen Irish people wouldn't take offense to it?

Do you think profiling is bad?

the_syco

caseyann wrote: »

Therefore will stick the stigma on the Garda of profiling (for doing random checks)and then they become worried and blocked in doing their jobs.

Can you say the above in English, please. Make no sense you do.

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

But if it did happen Irish people wouldn't take offense to it?

Do you think profiling is bad?

If it did happen Irish people wouldn't take offence to it nope.I wouldn't.They are doing their jobs.
And understandable with the high amounts of illegals in every country of the west.

If it existed yes it would be bad,as it doesn't exist and is random stops and obviously they see a just reason for asking for ID.

the_syco wrote: »

Can you say the above in English, please. Make no sense you do.

Sorry lol i spend so much of my time speaking with broken English in real life, i write like that now without even thinking about it.:o
I meant,if they start making a big issue out of random checks and blowing it way put of proportion,saying that it happens more than it actually is.
Garda then have that hanging over their heads,and they will not feel comfortable checking ids for illegals out of fear of being accused of profiling or racism.
Is that better for you

Nodin

caseyann wrote: »

.......................


How do they know they haven't?
Half the people in this country from all backgrounds hardly ever get checked for criminal records as is,and unfortunately so long as the false ids and illegals and the ones who avoid deportation obstruct and break laws.There is no other way for Garda or immigration do their jobs.And those who have nothing to hide should respect that and be polite and get it sorted so its quick and painless.
There is even fake college study certificates floating around for Pakistanis and Indians and Chinese etc...
So then Garda are going to be afraid as they are now already when they have to deal with someone from another country,(If they stop them its racist) Will be the new thing? Is that what you want?

I've no idea what you're trying to get at there. The fact is that in the US state of Arizona, 30% of the US citizens there are of hispanic descent. The new law means they face extra attention from law enforcement based solely on the colour of their skin/physical appearance. That is, whatever the intent, a de facto racist law, which results in two standards of treatment.

caseyann wrote: »

For someone to stop me in because i have an Irish accent on street and ask for my id or proof of visa i would call that random doesnt matter if they stopped a hundred Irish previously that day.

The very fact you would be stopped for having an Irish accent means that it was not random.

caseyann wrote: »

And its not about black people being stopped in the airport,its about Black or Pakistani or Chinese or people with an accent being stopped on the street randomly..

Stopping all people who would not be considered 'ethnically Irish' is not random.

caseyann wrote: »

As i said already they are not stopping these people because they are upholding the law and walking down the street.
These people who are being stopped are being stopped for a reason and now they are crying racist.
If they are stopping them they have a reason to stop them...

If they are being stopped because of their ethnicity then the reason is, essentially, racist. Even being charitable, its certainly xenophobic. You're also saying that profiling on skin colour are valid reasons to stop people on the street.

caseyann wrote: »

If it did happen Irish people wouldn't take offence to it ...

I remember quite well the treatment meted out to members of the Irish community during the 1980's and 90's and I can assure you, they did indeed object to it.

28064212

The larger problem is not profiling, it's the different burden of proof placed that is introduced based on race.

Scenario:
Two Irish people walking down the street. One is Caucasian, the other isn't. The police stop both of them separately and ask where they are from. Both say Ireland. The white person is allowed to walk on. The other is asked to produce proof of identity, something which, as an Irish citizen, he is not required to have on him. He is subsequently arrested until such time as he can prove his identity.

Is that fair? Or has he been arrested purely because of his race? And lest you think that doesn't happen in Ireland...

===============================

The other important argument against racial profiling has already been raised: it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Let's say there's 100 people coming through a checkpoint. 90 are ethnic Irish, the other 10 is a mix. The Gardaí choose 10 people to pull out for checks, and because they're using racial profiling, they choose 5 Irish and 5 'other'. That means they're checking a full half of all the 'others' who come in, and only 5.6% of the ethnic Irish.

Now say 10% of both groups (the initial 90+10) are in fact hiding something. That means 9 Irish and 1 other are who the Gardaí actually want to catch. That means there's a 50% chance that they will catch an Irish person, and a 50% chance that they will catch an "other" person. However, the statistics will show that of 90 Irish people that went through, only one of them was a criminal, while they'll show that 1 in 10 "others" was a criminal even though both groups have equal percentages of criminals. And of course, these statistics are used to justify further racial profiling

Now say they choose completely at random. On average, that would be 9 Irish and 1 "other". The probability of catching a criminal remains exactly the same.

caseyann

28064212 wrote: »

The larger problem is not profiling, it's the different burden of proof placed that is introduced based on race.

Scenario:
Two Irish people walking down the street. One is Caucasian, the other isn't. The police stop both of them separately and ask where they are from. Both say Ireland. The white person is allowed to walk on. The other is asked to produce proof of identity, something which, as an Irish citizen, he is not required to have on him. He is subsequently arrested until such time as he can prove his identity.

Is that fair? Or has he been arrested purely because of his race? And lest you think that doesn't happen in Ireland...

===============================

The other important argument against racial profiling has already been raised: it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Let's say there's 100 people coming through a checkpoint. 90 are ethnic Irish, the other 10 is a mix. The Gardaí choose 10 people to pull out for checks, and because they're using racial profiling, they choose 5 Irish and 5 'other'. That means they're checking a full half of all the 'others' who come in, and only 5.6% of the ethnic Irish.

Now say 10% of both groups (the initial 90+10) are in fact hiding something. That means 9 Irish and 1 other are who the Gardaí actually want to catch. That means there's a 50% chance that they will catch an Irish person, and a 50% chance that they will catch an "other" person. However, the statistics will show that of 90 Irish people that went through, only one of them was a criminal, while they'll show that 1 in 10 "others" was a criminal even though both groups have equal percentages of criminals. And of course, these statistics are used to justify further racial profiling

Now say they choose completely at random. On average, that would be 9 Irish and 1 "other". The probability of catching a criminal remains exactly the same.

Because they know the Irish are Irish and have passports,And if they are any other race looking wise and asked for passport and its Irish will to be allowed to move on.And if they dont carry an Irish passport they get checked.Its called immigration control.
If they however feel it is necessary to check people who are carrying other nationality passports,due to the illegals and the criminals trafficking they must follow through with id checks.
Unfortunate but true,and cant be blamed on the Garda.
If an Irish person comes through passport control and are checked should we complain about that because they chose them because they looked like they are junkies now,someone who is possibly ill.Or they just dont like the look of them?
Or when Irish lads or girls are walking down the street and just because they are in a poor area and they stop them,ask them their business and such.Call it profiling,just because they suspect they might be people of interest to them?
They argued the person isnt going to turn up in Garda station if they are illegals,so they should let them go and take it on face value?
Thats why i said some new system needs to be installed.If someone cant prove who they are there and then.The Garda can ring it in or type it in to system so it links them up and they can verify who the person is and right to be in the country.
The immigration and the Garda work alot of instinct and if they are stopping people black white what ever,there is a reason for it.
I am sure if you asked 8 in every ten person who are racially not your average Irish Caucasian,they would tell you they have never been stopped on the street.
If someone of another race is carrying a Irish passport then they wont be stopped in an airport for more than two seconds to get it stamped.However if the passport looks dodgy they will.And the same would go for anyone of any race or nationality.

28064212

caseyann wrote: »

Because they know the Irish are Irish and have passports,And if they are any other race looking wise and asked for passport and its Irish will to be allowed to move on.And if they dont carry an Irish passport they get checked.Its called immigration control.
If they however feel it is necessary to check people who are carrying other nationality passports,due to the illegals and the criminals trafficking they must follow through with id checks.

Did you actually read my post at all? None of what you replied with discussed any of my points, and you just restated what you've already said in this thread.

I'll try again:
Two IRISH people (irish, irish, irish. Irish as either of us. IRISH citizens) are walking down the street. One is Caucasian, the other isn't. The police stop both of them separately and ask where they are from. Both say Ireland. The white person is allowed to walk on. The other is asked to produce proof of identity, something which, as an Irish citizen, he is not required to have on him. He is subsequently arrested until such time as he can prove his identity.

How is that fair? How is that not racist?

=====================

Secondly, if two groups of people (one large group of Caucasians and one small group of 'others') are going through a checkpoint, and the Gardaí are racially profiling them, the statistics will say that the 'other' group commit more crime, even if the percentages of criminals in both groups is the exact same. Furthermore, it does not give us anymore protection, the exact same number of criminals will get through the checkpoint. The only thing which changes is that the criminals that are caught are mostly "others", and the criminals that get away are mostly Caucasian.

How is that fair? How is that not racist?

=====================

caseyann wrote: »

The immigration and the Garda work alot of instinct and if they are stopping people black white what ever,there is a reason for it.
If someone of another race is carrying a Irish passport then they wont be stopped in an airport for more than two seconds to get it stamped.However if the passport looks dodgy they will.And the same would go for anyone of any race or nationality.

None of which is anything to do with the topic at hand. From your OP:

caseyann wrote: »

Garda or immigration officers asking people for passports in airports on the streets etc.. due to colour.

Due to colour. Not due to dodgy passports, or suspicious behaviour, colour

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

If it did happen Irish people wouldn't take offence to it nope.I wouldn't.They are doing their jobs.
And understandable with the high amounts of illegals in every country of the west.

If it existed yes it would be bad,as it doesn't exist and is random stops and obviously they see a just reason for asking for ID.

So if it did happen to Irish people they wouldn't take offense at it, you wouldn't take offense at it, it is just the police doing their job. But it is still bad?

How exactly is it bad then?

tawnyowl

This might be of interest:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0326/1224293137954.html