car impound charges

wrb

hi all,

i made a mistake and obstructed a gate. my car was towed away by a private company due to garda order (section 98 of road traffic act). i have no problem with that. i made a mistake and i am ok to pay according to the rule of law.

i apologised owners of the house, immediately contacted the company to pay the fee and take my car as soon as possible, but they refused. i was told to come next day in the morning, which i did - i took my car after 18 hours.

i was charged 150eu for towing + 40eu storage fee + VAT.

but according to citizens information website

The Road Traffic (Removal, Storage and Disposal of Vehicles) Regulations 1983 - 1991 give power to local authorities to tow away vehicles that have been abandoned or illegally parked on a public road or in a local authority car park. Vehicles are towed to a car pound and a significant fee (up to 160 euro) may be charged for their release.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/traffic_and_parking/parking_fines_and_vehicle_clamping.html

as well, according to irish examiner article

Following an internal audit, the Garda has established that, in cases where vehicles were impounded under section 41 of the Road Traffic Act and subsequently returned, there had been instances of overcharging, a spokesman said.

The towing fee should include the first 24 hours of storage but in some cases a first day charge was added to the towing cost.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/cwaukfkfsngb/

i called garda about above and they said that section 41 of road traffic act does not apply in my case. as well, i was told that the fee is matter between me and the private company (i.e. the company can charge me whatever they want). the gardai did not know which law says so.

i do not believe that there is no fee regulations when your car is towed away due to garda request by a private company. if i am right, then... where can i find the information about the fees including references to appropriate law?

wrb

similar article to irish examiner one, but bit more detailed

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-admit-they-overcharged-to-free-cars-from-pound-257943.html

coylemj

wrb wrote: »

hi all,

i made a mistake and obstructed a gate. my car was towed away by a private company due to garda order (section 98 of road traffic act). i have no problem with that. i made a mistake and i am ok to pay according to the rule of law.

S.98 of the RTA 1961 deals with obstruction of traffic through a public place.

98.—(1) A person shall not do any act (whether of commission or omission) which causes or is likely to cause traffic through any public place to be obstructed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0098.html#sec98

There is no particular power granted to the Gardai to have a car towed away if it's simply obstructing an entrance to private property so I find it dificult to deal with your accont of events, especially when you say that your car was towed away by a private company due to garda order (section 98 of road traffic act). I'm not aware that the Gardai have any such power under S.98 or any other section of the RTA.

Could you clarify exactly what it was you obstructed.....

wrb

coylemj wrote: »

S.98 of the RTA 1961 deals with obstruction of traffic through a public place.

98.—(1) A person shall not do any act (whether of commission or omission) which causes or is likely to cause traffic through any public place to be obstructed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0098.html#sec98

There is no particular power granted to the Gardai to have a car towed away if it's simply obstructing an entrance to private property so I find it dificult to deal with your accont of events, especially when you say that your car was towed away by a private company due to garda order (section 98 of road traffic act). I'm not aware that the Gardai have any such power under S.98 or any other section of the RTA.

Could you clarify exactly what it was you obstructed.....

It was gate of a private home.

It seems the powers to Garda are granted in the regulations cited by Citizens Information web page (part 2 and 4)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1983/en/si/0091.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/si/0358.html

I cannot find newer regulations, i.e. saying 160eu or that the fees are the matter between me and the towing company in such case.

wrb

last year i tried to get more information about above from Garda.

and basically there is no chance get information about such stuff.

once a Gardai orders a company (Gannons Recovery in my case) to take
your property, then you are on your own. Garda takes no responsibility,
will not help you to get your property back (assuming you are ready to pay!)
and will refuse any fees information.

my advice to others - if they refuse to give your car back, then call
a lawyer immediately. record every single call when dealing with Gardai
or company ordered to impound your car.

MagicSean

The current fees are €125 for towing and €35 for storage after the first day. I suggest you ask the towing company why you were charged storage and if you have no luck then write to the Superintendent of the district from which your car was towed.

wrb

MagicSean wrote: »

The current fees are €125 for towing and €35 for storage after the first day. I suggest you ask the towing company why you were charged storage and if you have no luck then write to the Superintendent of the district from which your car was towed.

Hey,

Thanks for the info, but that's not true.

First, I did call the Superintendent office and they basically were unable to provide
information about the fees. After several calls with a Gardai from the office and following
his advice all the time, actually the Gardai had to force Gannons Recovery to answer
my calls and provide answer to my letter. The answer provided no information,
of course.

Finally, I sent a letter to Superintendent office asking directly about the procedure
of car impound and the fees. I got quite interesting answer. Hard to recall from memory,
so let me provide it in the evening.

MagicSean

What part of my post is not true exactly?

wrb

Let me provide the following.

Few remarks about my questions to Superintendent
1. I am asking what _the_ _law_ _says_ about the fees, not what a company charges.
2. I have a letter from Superintendent office claiming that the matter of fees is between me and Gannons but Gardai have provided no answer that this is actually the law.
3. I asked Gannons over a phone and via letters about the fees and the question was ignored. It is amazing that such company can win Garda tender.

The questions sent to Superintendent

I am really dissapointed, that I have to complain about Gannons company,
which does not act in good faith and is refusing to answer my questions
about car towing due to Garda orders.

Because of above, I have no other choice, but to ask you directly

1. Which law or regulations state that matter of fees is between Gannons
   company and owner of towed car ?

2. If above was stated by mistake, then I have the following questions
   (a) What is the maximum fee I should be charged for towing (VAT inclusive)?
   (b) What is the maximum fee I should be charged for storage (VAT inclusive)?
   (c) Should towing fee include first 24 hours of storage?

The response from Superintendent

On todays date I contacted Gannons at Donabate and confirmed the
pricing structure with their representative which is as follows:

Vehicle seized for obstruction:
Charge is 150eu plus Vat. This does not include storage which is charged
at 40eu plus VAT per 24 hour period or part thereof.

Vehicle seized under Section 41 of the Road Traffic Act as amended:
Charge is 125eu plus VAT. This includes storage for the first 24 hour period,
thereafter storage is charged at 35eu plus Vat.

Again, but what the law says? Of course, not addressing my questions is other matter...

MagicSean, the fee you are providing is _not_ for vehicle seized for obstruction. As you can see there is some "price structure", which needs to be taken into account.

Is this price structure defined by law? It seems that Garda simply does not know.

MagicSean

wrb wrote: »

Let me provide the following.

Few remarks about my questions to Superintendent
1. I am asking what _the_ _law_ _says_ about the fees, not what a company charges.
2. I have a letter from Superintendent office claiming that the matter of fees is between me and Gannons but Gardai have provided no answer that this is actually the law.
3. I asked Gannons over a phone and via letters about the fees and the question was ignored. It is amazing that such company can win Garda tender.

The questions sent to Superintendent

I am really dissapointed, that I have to complain about Gannons company,
which does not act in good faith and is refusing to answer my questions
about car towing due to Garda orders.

Because of above, I have no other choice, but to ask you directly

1. Which law or regulations state that matter of fees is between Gannons
   company and owner of towed car ?

2. If above was stated by mistake, then I have the following questions
   (a) What is the maximum fee I should be charged for towing (VAT inclusive)?
   (b) What is the maximum fee I should be charged for storage (VAT inclusive)?
   (c) Should towing fee include first 24 hours of storage?

The response from Superintendent

On todays date I contacted Gannons at Donabate and confirmed the
pricing structure with their representative which is as follows:

Vehicle seized for obstruction:
Charge is 150eu plus Vat. This does not include storage which is charged
at 40eu plus VAT per 24 hour period or part thereof.

Vehicle seized under Section 41 of the Road Traffic Act as amended:
Charge is 125eu plus VAT. This includes storage for the first 24 hour period,
thereafter storage is charged at 35eu plus Vat.

Again, but what the law says? Of course, not addressing my questions is other matter...

MagicSean, the fee you are providing is _not_ for vehicle seized for obstruction. As you can see there is some "price structure", which needs to be taken into account.

Is this price structure defined by law? It seems that Garda simply does not know.

Did you read the statutory instruments you posted? The fees are set out as I stated (although they are in £'s not €'s) for both Section 41 seizures and obstruction. The S.I. also allows for the Gardaí to engage the services of a third party to perform the service of removing and storing the vehicles. There is nothing in relation to fees for this service. In Dublin the service is operated by way of tender and the prices would be se as part of this process.

I suppose you could argue that this is contrary to the statutory instrument which doesn't specifically state that different fees can be charged when a third party is involved but you would have to run that by a solicitor.

Carawaystick

have a look at
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1973/en/si/0009.html

Were you quoted vat inclusive prices by gannons?

wrb

MagicSean wrote: »

...
In Dublin the service is operated by way of tender and the prices would be se as part of this process.
...

Exactly. It is common sense in the light of SI, but Garda mentions no tender in his
answer. On top of that, from one of the letters from Garda

The issues of fees are a matter between Gannons City Recovery
and the owner of the towed vehicle.

Year ago I have called Ballymun Garda Station (that's the Garda station involved in my case) and they refused to provide information about the tender.

How could I obtain the text of the tender? Any ideas?

wrb

Carawaystick wrote: »

have a look at
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1973/en/si/0009.html

Were you quoted vat inclusive prices by gannons?

When collecting my car I was quoted VAT exclusive... and the price changed twice.

The only letter I got from Gannons, which took them 2 months to produce because Garda forced them to, mentions no fees of course (and no answer to my question). No to forget that Gardai by whose order my car was seized mentioned different fee as well.

I really regret I did not record the whole thing while talking to them over the phone or in person.

Gerry Moloy

MagicSean wrote: »

The current fees are €125 for towing and €35 for storage after the first day. I suggest you ask the towing company why you were charged storage and if you have no luck then write to the Superintendent of the district from which your car was towed.

What happens if car removed wrongfully by Gardai?

Gerry Moloy

MagicSean wrote: »

The current fees are €125 for towing and €35 for storage after the first day. I suggest you ask the towing company why you were charged storage and if you have no luck then write to the Superintendent of the district from which your car was towed.

What happens if car removed wrongfully and damaged at storage company?

mansoff

My insurance was out of date Saturday at 12 noon and I got pulled this morning (Monday) going to work less than 48 hours out. The ban guard told me she has to take the car off me. I told her I would get insurance at 9am as I thought it wasn't up until the end of the month, have the same car 4 years always paid my insurance. I said while your pulling cars here I will wait and ring them at 9 when the insurance company opens. She said no. It takes an hour to collect the car and tow it to the towing site. At 9am I rang insurance got the disk and went to the guards station. I was so quick I had to wait in the guards station until the car was towed. Then I had to pay €125 release charge. They told me at the towing company for each day on site its an extra €35 and said they guards get all the money and just pay the towing company a hiring fee. Sickened Monday morning on my way to work hit with another tax.

Allinall

mansoff wrote: »

My insurance was out of date Saturday at 12 noon and I got pulled this morning (Monday) going to work less than 48 hours out. The ban guard told me she has to take the car off me. I told her I would get insurance at 9am as I thought it wasn't up until the end of the month, have the same car 4 years always paid my insurance. I said while your pulling cars here I will wait and ring them at 9 when the insurance company opens. She said no. It takes an hour to collect the car and tow it to the towing site. At 9am I rang insurance got the disk and went to the guards station. I was so quick I had to wait in the guards station until the car was towed. Then I had to pay €125 release charge. They told me at the towing company for each day on site its an extra €35 and said they guards get all the money and just pay the towing company a hiring fee. Sickened Monday morning on my way to work hit with another tax.

That should be the least of your worries.

Expect a summons to court for driving without insurance .

whippet

mansoff wrote: »

My insurance was out of date Saturday at 12 noon and I got pulled this morning (Monday) going to work less than 48 hours out. The ban guard told me she has to take the car off me. I told her I would get insurance at 9am as I thought it wasn't up until the end of the month, have the same car 4 years always paid my insurance. I said while your pulling cars here I will wait and ring them at 9 when the insurance company opens. She said no. It takes an hour to collect the car and tow it to the towing site. At 9am I rang insurance got the disk and went to the guards station. I was so quick I had to wait in the guards station until the car was towed. Then I had to pay €125 release charge. They told me at the towing company for each day on site its an extra €35 and said they guards get all the money and just pay the towing company a hiring fee. Sickened Monday morning on my way to work hit with another tax.

It ain’t a tax .... it’s a consequence of being caught driving without insurance. Oh ... expect a little summons in the post also for driving without insurance.

Also .. the guards don’t get the money !!!

C3PO

You were driving uninsured and you're looking for sympathy? Get a grip!!

Del2005

Allinall wrote: »

That should be the least of your worries.

Expect a summons to court for driving without insurance .

And a much higher premium when you remember to insure the car again.

Owryan

Surely you got a reminder off the insurance company telling you it was time to renew. You also have a disk on the window with an expiry date on it.

*Gets off high horse

CeilingFly

mansoff wrote: »

Sickened Monday morning on my way to work hit with another tax.

Where's the tax you were hit for?


Imagine how sickened you be if the car was stolen from your house lasy night - or if you rear-ended a car on your way to work before you got re-insured?

The Garda was doing her job. You were driving an uninsured vehicle. A costly lesson.

mansoff

Yep sure is ah well worse things could happen.

wrb

mansoff wrote: »

[...]
Then I had to pay €125 release charge. They told me at the towing company for each day on site its an extra €35 and said they guards get all the money and just pay the towing company a hiring fee.
[...]

Do you mind if I ask you if you get any paperwork from the Gardai?

mansoff

I had renewed from the same insurance company for 5 years running it was a genuine mistake. It would have been faster and less hassle if I waited for 30 minutes and phoned to get insurance at 9am because it took more than 30 minutes for the towing company to get to my car. I was only out of insurance by Saturday noon and 9am Monday morning was the earliest to fix the problem.

After the guards took my car I rang the insurance company at 9am got insurance. Presented the insurance form to the guards at 940am. Then I had to wait for about 25 minutes for the car to arrive at the towing company and then the guards gave me a release form to present to the towing garage. This release form was the only paper work I got from the guards. I went and collected my car.

However later that evening after work I went back to the guards and showed them that my new insurance form stated that I was insured from the Saturday as I didn't want a conviction. The guard noted the date on the disk and entered information on the PC and told me now that should all be sorted. I asked the guard was I going to not going to have to go to court now and she said no you shouldn't. Fingers crossed I don’t get s summons to court. Thanks to the previous posts here for pointing that out to me.

I wonder would your insurance company have said that you were covered if the Garda was attending the scene of an accident that involved you?

ohnonotgmail

can you get insurance retrospectively?

mansoff

Yes I agree that the insurance company should only insure you when you pay but they back dated mine automatically. I think it maybe because your insurance runs out faster and have to renew sooner or maybe they auto renewed mine since I'm with them about 7 years or so and this was the next business day after my insurance expired.

Regardless I don't think I will never again mix up the renewal date going forward

Claw Hammer

mansoff wrote: »

Yes I agree that the insurance company should only insure you when you pay but they back dated mine automatically. I think it maybe because your insurance runs out faster and have to renew sooner or maybe they auto renewed mine since I'm with them about 7 years or so and this was the next business day after my insurance expired.

Regardless I don't think I will never again mix up the renewal date going forward

What you did was bone stupid.
!. You had no insurance driving a car on the public road.
2. You admitted to a Guard that you had no insurance.


Had you said nothing and had the insurance backdated, you would have a beter chance of proving in court that you were insured at the relevant time but forgot to display the disk. You would probably had the case struck out with no fine and penalty points.

You now face a possible ban from driving, penalty points and a loading on future premiums.

The fact that you are whinging about the tow fee says it all really.

mansoff

I'm not stupid I just don't lie. I'm not whinging I just stating the facts. The guard looked at my insurance disk and she seen that it was outdated. She had it in her hand. What would happen if (following your advice) I told the guard I had insurance that is the old disk and I forgot to change the new disk? Yea right!! What if they checked up and I got caught out. I imagine I would be in much bigger trouble.

Anyways I have nothing to worry about now but thanks for your concern

Marcusm

mansoff wrote: »

I'm not stupid I just don't lie. I'm not whinging I just stating the facts. The guard looked at my insurance disk and she seen that it was outdated. She had it in her hand. What would happen if (following your advice) I told the guard I had insurance that is the old disk and I forgot to change the new disk? Yea right!! What if they checked up and I got caught out. I imagine I would be in much bigger trouble.

Anyways I have nothing to worry about now but thanks for your concern

I think you’re wrong about having nothing to worry about. You have a mandatory court appearance for driving without insurance and when the insurer realised that you renewed the policy after you were stopped, had the car impounded and were facing prosecution, they will likely void the policy for non disclosure. If you had sense, now is the time to consult a legal professional.

10pennymixup

Marcusm wrote: »

I think you’re wrong about having nothing to worry about. You have a mandatory court appearance for driving without insurance and when the insurer realised that you renewed the policy after you were stopped, had the car impounded and were facing prosecution, they will likely void the policy for non disclosure. If you had sense, now is the time to consult a legal professional.

+1

mansoff wrote: »

I'm not stupid I just don't lie. I'm not whinging I just stating the facts. The guard looked at my insurance disk and she seen that it was outdated. She had it in her hand. What would happen if (following your advice) I told the guard I had insurance that is the old disk and I forgot to change the new disk? Yea right!! What if they checked up and I got caught out. I imagine I would be in much bigger trouble.

Anyways I have nothing to worry about now but thanks for your concern

Rather than argue the toss with someone over the rights and wrongs of an offence, some Gardaí will tell you what you want to hear in order to get rid so that they can get on with something else

The fact remains that you were driving without insurance.

Stick your head in the sand all you wish, but as many others have pointed out to you... you have a lot to be worried about.

Victor

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Had you said nothing and had the insurance backdated, you would have a beter chance of proving in court that you were insured at the relevant time but forgot to display the disk. You would probably had the case struck out with no fine and penalty points.

Note that there are separate offences for:
* Not having insurance.
* Not displaying an insurance disk.

mansoff

I have nothing to worry about and FYI I told the insurance company before I got it renewed that the car was taken off me. So ye can all relax I'm fine

CeilingFly

mansoff wrote: »

I have nothing to worry about and FYI I told the insurance company before I got it renewed that the car was taken off me. So ye can all relax I'm fine

I agree, you have nothing to worry about.

Gardai in most situations use common sense as do insurance companies.

If a garda brought this to court, it would be thrown out especially as it can be shown insurance was continuous for 5 years.

It was a genuine error, though you were at risk of being uninsured if there was an incident prior to 9am.

But there is virtually no chance of further action.

10pennymixup

mansoff wrote: »

I have nothing to worry about and FYI I told the insurance company before I got it renewed that the car was taken off me. So ye can all relax I'm fine

Time will tell, let us know how you get on!:rolleyes:

mansoff

I spent about 15 minutes with the guard the last time I went to the guard station. The station was practically empty so the guard was not in any rush. She was very helpful and polite and very meticulous. She recorded all details on the computer and at the end said that's it now all should be sorted and smiled. Also when they took my car off me the other guard drove me to work so I must say my detailing with the guards was good.

I think going back up to pointing out I was insured for that date was an important step.

IMO I will not hear anymore but I will come back here and let you all know.

wrb

10pennymixup wrote: »

Rather than argue the toss with someone over the rights and wrongs of an offence, some Gardaí will tell you what you want to hear in order to get rid so that they can get on with something else
[...]

Are you suggesting, that Gardai are lying to the public? The horror... :eek::eek::eek:

mansoff

Just an update I never heard anymore so I think I am in the clear. I suppose some guards want to put a charge against you to boost their rankings and others are helpful - just my opinion. The best thing I done IMO was going back up that evening and pointing out that I was insured for that date to stop it going any further. Just hope this advice helps someone who gets into the same position as I was.

4ensic15

mansoff wrote: »

Just an update I never heard anymore so I think I am in the clear. I suppose some guards want to put a charge against you to boost their rankings and others are helpful - just my opinion. The best thing I done IMO was going back up that evening and pointing out that I was insured for that date to stop it going any further. Just hope this advice helps someone who gets into the same position as I was.

The guards have 6 months to apply for a summons. Some have a policy of waiting till the last minute to apply for a summons. After that, it has to be issued and served. It is far too early to say that you are off scot free.

mansoff

Thanks for the info I'll I get a summons I will come back hear otherwise if I don't I never got one

wrb

4ensic15 wrote: »

The guards have 6 months to apply for a summons. Some have a policy of waiting till the last minute to apply for a summons. After that, it has to be issued and served. It is far too early to say that you are off scot free.

It can also happen that summons is sent after 6 months. Late month or two, but backdated.

4ensic15

wrb wrote: »

It can also happen that summons is sent after 6 months. Late month or two, but backdated.

The summons only has to be applied for before 6 months. It may not be issued until after. There might be a further delay in serving it. I have seen them arrive after 10 months.